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FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU  
User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 328 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8117 times:

Seems to be the trend lately...

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/11596020/

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflyfree727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8092 times:

No one cares because it's not AA..

AA ORD


User currently offlinerduddji From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1456 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8080 times:

People just get angrier and angrier these days... However, this behavior is unacceptable for crew.


Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7733 times:

Quoting rduddji (Reply 2):
However, this behavior is unacceptable for crew.

But is acceptable for passengers??  



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7237 times:

As I said in my accidental dupe post.....I'm waiting for the media to start "are airline employees at the breaking point" sensationalism. Anyone care to make a wager?  

User currently offlineLostmoon744 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6700 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 3):

Quoting rduddji (Reply 2):
However, this behavior is unacceptable for crew.

But is acceptable for passengers??  

Nope. However, passengers aren't the professionals here. What the FAs did was completely unacceptable and unprofessional.

[Edited 2012-09-27 13:41:12]

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6223 times:

It is sad these days when people can not get along. This argument probably cost UA thousands of dollars with rebooking and accomodating passengers to other flights.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1168 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5795 times:

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 4):
I'm waiting for the media to start "are airline employees at the breaking point" sensationalism. Anyone care to make a wager?

I'm not in any way excusing this kind of poor behavior. It's inexcusable for a FA to behave in such a way that the entire airplane has to land in a city other than the destination city because of their behavior. That said, I'd be interested in knowing the full story but we probably never will. It sounds like the Pilot made a bit of a knee jerk reaction in diverting an entire airplane full of people in this case. It's clear these two didn't get along but what made the pilot think that the situation was dire enough to cause a diversion? Not blaming the pilot - just asking the question.

In regards to your statement above, I don't think that's too far off base. It's not a stretch to imagine Flight Attendants reaching "the breaking point". As we become more socially engaged, people are losing the ability to interact well with others. People aren't, in general, very pleasant towards others anymore. It's not uncommon to be completely and 100S% ignored by a passenger during boarding. As people come on I always smile and say hello - about 5 times out of 10 people ignore me in favor of the text or phone call they are making or the Facebook page they are completely immersed in. Pleasantries have become a thing of the past - just a casual hello or smile. Going through the cabin to offer beverages is a real test of ones patience and tolerance. We are ignored almost completely a good deal of the time as people are completely immersed in their electronics... until, of course, you pass them, at which time they become visibly and verbally irritated. Please and thank you is almost non existent. As people deplane their garbage is left strewn about their seating area. Nobody pays any attention to any of the rules and requests of the flight crew. It's all about numero uno. Beyond themselves, nobody really cares about anything else. Too much of that for too long could easily push one to their breaking point.


User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5661 times:

Interestingly enough...people pay more attention to the roller coaster operator. "Stay seated with your hands inside the ride until the ride comes to a complete stop." Or the "magic" white line on a bus: "Federal law prohibits operation of this vehicle while passengers are standing forward of the white line." Hmmmm...


My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlineRon88888888 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3951 times:

Quoting B727FA (Reply 8):

Interestingly enough...people pay more attention to the roller coaster operator. "Stay seated with your hands inside the ride until the ride comes to a complete stop." Or the "magic" white line on a bus: "Federal law prohibits operation of this vehicle while passengers are standing forward of the white line." Hmmmm...

Well, maybe an unfair comparison. IMO, the difference is that people don't much resent roller coaster operators. At least not as much as flight attendants. It is quite often, maybe not the majority of the time, but often enough, that an FA talks down to me, is short with me, or somehow treats me with disrespect, just during the course of carrying out their normal flight duties. (I am mainly commenting on mainline US airlines, though this is not limited to the US). I hate, resent, being treated like that and even if it doesn't happen all the time, I avoid flying those carriers when I can, because there are carriers where this happens much less often. It's just unnecessary bull. Many of us have such stories, I am sure.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 7):
As we become more socially engaged, people are losing the ability to interact well with others. People aren't, in general, very pleasant towards others anymore. It's not uncommon to be completely and 100S% ignored by a passenger during boarding. As people come on I always smile and say hello - about 5 times out of 10 people ignore me in favor of the text or phone call they are making or the Facebook page they are completely immersed in. Pleasantries have become a thing of the past - just a casual hello or smile.


I would respectfully disagree on extrapolating to societal trends in the US just based on what happens on a plane. But, when it comes to the flight cabin, I think you're right, people are generally much more reserved than their everyday lives. Branching off of what I stated above, I think it's, in large part, due to expectations that the cabin on mainline US carrier can often be a hostile place. That can be due to a snarky FA or an unfriendly seat mate, though in my experience if a bad experience occurs, it's less frequently due to a bad seat mate.

[Edited 2012-09-27 20:38:24]

[Edited 2012-09-27 20:39:34]

[Edited 2012-09-27 20:40:14]

User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1168 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3833 times:

Quoting Ron88888888 (Reply 9):
I would respectfully disagree on extrapolating to societal trends in the US just based on what happens on a plane. But, when it comes to the flight cabin, I think you're right, people are generally much more reserved than their everyday lives. Branching off of what I stated above, I think it's, in large part, due to expectations that the cabin on mainline US carrier can often be a hostile place. That can be due to a snarky FA or an unfriendly seat mate, though in my experience if a bad experience occurs, it's less frequently due to a bad seat mate.

I think the inside of an airplane is a great place to extrapolate on societal trends. But even if you look outside of the airplane cabin, people in general have become more rude, pushy, impatient, demanding and just overall unpleasant. You can't really be serious if you think that our countries addiction to social media and texting one another as opposed to face to face or even voice interactions doesn't have an effect on how we treat each other. Trying to blame it on the flight crews is a huge stretch. The Flight Attendant position is a lot different than it was back in the 60's and 70's. Flight Attendants in the 60's and 70's were working on half full planes full of well dressed, generally more affluent, polite passengers. It was easy to be nice to people that treated you with common decency. People didn't use to wear tank tops and short shorts on airplanes and immediately put their feet up on the wall (or tray table or seat in front of them) when they sat down. I see people changing their babies on the tray tables these days, cutting their toe nails in their seat, throwing their garbage on the floors. You can say what you like but the traveling public is a whole lot different then it was 30-40 years ago.


User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13517 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days ago) and read 3784 times:
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Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 10):
Flight Attendants in the 60's and 70's were working on half full planes full of well dressed, generally more affluent, polite passengers.

  

For giggles, I was reading a copy of an old Eastern Air Lines annual report from 1985, a year in which they made a profit. Know what their breakeven load factor was at that point? Try 61% - unreal by today's standards, when most breakeven load factors are 10 to 15 percentage points north of that or more, depending on the carrier.

While low fares have enabled far more people to travel and enabled carriers to grow, it also means margins are razor-thin and you need to pack every single flight to the gills to stay profitable and remain in business.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineRon88888888 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 10):
I think the inside of an airplane is a great place to extrapolate on societal trends. But even if you look outside of the airplane cabin, people in general have become more rude, pushy, impatient, demanding and just overall unpleasant. You can't really be serious if you think that our countries addiction to social media and texting one another as opposed to face to face or even voice interactions doesn't have an effect on how we treat each other.

I don't really see how it's so easy to extrapolate to broader society in America, as you do. The airplane environment is a very unique environment. For much of America, most days do not consist of arriving hours before departure and then sitting 2 inches away from two strangers in a packed metal tube of 50-400 plus strangers and also having to stay seated to comply with federal regulations and also having to endure turbulence and also having to forgo cigarettes and also having to endure a mal-tempered gate agent, FA or fellow passenger and also undergoing whole body imaging that can see under your clothes.

The airport/airplane environment is unique. In fact, it is explicitly designed to be different from (most people's) normal day-to-day life due to the dangers of terrorism and aviation generally (and I'm not arguing it shouldn't be). Most Americans don't live in such an environment, day to day. I don't see how you can categorically extrapolate your experiences in that specialized environment to generalize about American society writ large.

[Edited 2012-09-28 02:23:17]

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9167 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

The Captain is the boss on that flight, he has the authority to straighten out and reprimand the flight attendants and he should have used that authoroty. If he did try that and was not successful his skills in labor relations should get an update.


Returning to RDU with all the consequences for the passengers and company was not the optimal decision.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
If he did try that and was not successful his skills in labor relations should get an update.

Or, maybe, there were irreconcilable difference that were obviously beyond his control.  

Though, I'm dying to know what you think should have been done. Considering pilots are no longer supposed to leave the cockpit, at any time, for altercations in the cabin. And for the instances when they *actually* need to leave the cockpit, an FA is supposed to take their place up there the entire time they are gone. If all your FA's are having a fight in the cabin - what, exactly, do you propose he do??



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3505 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
If he did try that and was not successful his skills in labor relations should get an update.

Not his job. That's why we have inflight supervisors. They deal with that crap, not the captain. The captain can, however, request the inflight supervisor to intervene though. I think that's what happened. Follow the chain of command.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9167 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Not his job. That's why we have inflight supervisors.

Oh well, and who's the boss of the inflight supervisors? In my book, the captain is always the ultimate authority and cannot hide behind a supervisor. If he cannot leave the cockpit he can call the supervisor to his office.

This sound much like management by Schettino, and how dumb unflexible regulations can be.

.

[Edited 2012-09-28 06:08:08]


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinelucky777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3411 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 14):
And for the instances when they *actually* need to leave the cockpit, an FA is supposed to take their place up there the entire time they are gone.

I don't recall ever seeing a flight attendand actually "take their place" in the cockpit when a pilot leaves. I do see flight attendants blocking the aisle to the restroom when the pilot comes out to use the facilities but i've yet to see one actually take the place of the flight crew while they were doing their business in the restroom.


User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 328 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 17):
I don't recall ever seeing a flight attendand actually "take their place" in the cockpit when a pilot leaves. I do see flight attendants blocking the aisle to the restroom when the pilot comes out to use the facilities but i've yet to see one actually take the place of the flight crew while they were doing their business in the restroom.

I've seen a flight attendant go in as one of the pilots came out and i've also seen the FA block the front galley with the cart and remain outside. I don't know what the policies are regarding when they are to be in the cockpit or not. Can anyone shed light on this?


User currently offlineBobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3273 times:
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Fire them both............

User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 756 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3225 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):

Returning to RDU with all the consequences for the passengers and company was not the optimal decision.

You were on board the flight and have all the facts to the case? If you've got two FA's (or anyone for that matter) going at each other they are not likely to listen to reason and calm down. If they do, great, continue on. If not, flight safety is now in question because two people on the same team may not have the ability to work together. That can put lives in danger. Perhaps the other FA's were not comfortable continuing the flight with the two arguing FA's. That is enough reason to return and get them replaced.

By it's nature, returning is not the optimal decision, but it may very well have been the BEST decision.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9167 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3192 times:

Quoting DualQual (Reply 20):
You were on board the flight and have all the facts to the case? If you've got two FA's

if you want to comment me, take the full line please. Don't pick just one sentence. If a captain on a flight or on a ship cannot handle such situation he is not fit to be a captain. That's my opinion, you may have a different one, but you haven't been on that flight as well, so what you are saying are assumptions.

But I say that a captain is the boss and a boss must be able to straighten such situations out. Unless his name is Schettino.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 848 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3152 times:

I looked back at Flightaware.com and saw that 1214 was a -900. s/CO A/C. If Im not mistaking the F/A crews are not mixed yet, therefore this was a s/CO crew correct? It is true of every work place, that not all employees will get along, Ive seen it before where 2 cabin crew members did not get along, and one would confide in me, they would be glad when the 4 day trip was over. Also it does not matter what carrier it is either. I saw a nasty tiff at DAL (Love field) between 2 flight attendants, then the Capt, then the gate Supervisor. Resulting in a 20 min delay to ABQ. I was quite surprised when that happened, since WN puts on the happy camper face a good part of the time. But alas it does happen. You not always get along with everyone one. However crew members are in a unique situation where as they are responsible for safety. Thus they need to put differences aside, or request a line change when they get back to their domicile.

JD CRP



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlineCONTACREW From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 22):
I looked back at Flightaware.com and saw that 1214 was a -900. s/CO A/C. If Im not mistaking the F/A crews are not mixed yet, therefore this was a s/CO crew correct? It is true of every work place, that not all employees will get along, Ive seen it before where 2 cabin crew members did not get along, and one would confide in me, they would be glad when the 4 day trip was over. Also it does not matter what carrier it is either. I saw a nasty tiff at DAL (Love field) between 2 flight attendants, then the Capt, then the gate Supervisor. Resulting in a 20 min delay to ABQ. I was quite surprised when that happened, since WN puts on the happy camper face a good part of the time. But alas it does happen. You not always get along with everyone one. However crew members are in a unique situation where as they are responsible for safety. Thus they need to put differences aside, or request a line change when they get back to their domicile.

Yes this was an sCO crew.



Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1168 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 18):
I've seen a flight attendant go in as one of the pilots came out and i've also seen the FA block the front galley with the cart and remain outside. I don't know what the policies are regarding when they are to be in the cockpit or not. Can anyone shed light on this?

I know it sounds silly but someone who works for an airline shouldn't shed light on this here on this forum. As trivial as it seems, that's classified security information. That to say, you probably won't get a first hand answer to that here - or you shouldn't anyway... even if you can sit in your seat and watch the whole thing play out in front of you.


25 ASFlyer : The Pilots are the authority on board the airplanes but they don't have any say as to who is hired/fired or disciplined. The only thing they can do i
26 DualQual : Again, just because a Captain couldn't calm down two fighting individuals does not make them unfit to be a Captain. Continuing a flight with a known
27 B727FA : Oh lord, the poor abused passenger again. And you *resent* FA's? Is the attitude you come on with? Then you're not paying attention. Or, the crew is
28 AirframeAS : Station Manager. Looks like you're on the right track here.... Without compromising security procedures, no. Sorry. Correct. I disagree a thousand pe
29 Post contains images EA CO AS : Inflight supervisors report to Managers or Directors in inflight, not individual station managers - the station manager is who the CSAs at that stati
30 AirframeAS : Then what do you do if there is no inflight manager or supervisor in an outstation?!
31 B777LRF : Lots of talk here about the behaviour of the crew members. Having read the linked article, one is left to wonder what people are on about. The article
32 type-rated : I think you meant "as people are becoming more socially disengaged.." I think part of it is the excessive use of Smartphones, etc. It seems anytime y
33 PHX787 : Looks like it was a petty argument. The lack of professionalism with these people is astounding these days, but again, they probably have a LOT of str
34 Post contains images JetAmericaS80 : Bingo. Generally speaking, from the airlines I have worked for, a situation like this would call for the removal of the crews from the trip, having t
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