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Jet Airways To Axe BRU-MAA (?)  
User currently offline330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 576 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6899 times:

In GDS Galileo, no more flights appear after 14NOV. So it looks as if Jet Airways will suspend these flights.
Not really surprising, as I always found this a strange routing, but hey, what do I know...

Anyone can confirm this?


Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2883 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6812 times:

Availability for the flight is coming zeroed out on Amadeus and 9Ws website

Still unconfirmed although the move makes sense on 2 counts

A terminator to BRU is not possible with the JFK drop, the MAA aircraft would operate a terminator hence a operational move cheaper to fly pax to BOM or DEL on 737 s

second they maybe de Hubbing BRU in preparation for a MUC hub

karan


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1112 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6770 times:

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 1):
second they maybe de Hubbing BRU in preparation for a MUC hub

I hate to have to say this, but every time it is mentioned, I really ought to. There is no room for a hub at MUC. Simply, there are so few slots available.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6680 times:

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 1):
second they maybe de Hubbing BRU in preparation for a MUC hub

They're dehubbing BRU because it's a terrible idea for an Indian carrier to have a Belgian (or German, or Yugoslavian, or whatever) hub. I'm surprised it lasted this long--even AI gave up on the FRA hub.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2883 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6639 times:

Not at all disagreeing on the bad decision of the euro hub especially in expensive airports like MUC or FRA , I just gave it as an opinion towards the reason of dropping the MAA BRU flight

But the main reason as per me is still the first one which is , it does not make operational sense to have an aircraft operating a terminator on that sector especially since JFK was dropped

karan


User currently offlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6156 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
They're dehubbing BRU because it's a terrible idea for an Indian carrier to have a Belgian (or German, or Yugoslavian, or whatever) hub. I'm surprised it lasted this long--even AI gave up on the FRA hub.

Because ULH works right? You have been bashing Jet for years for not embracing ULH, still ULH hardly works wih only a few very rich carriers in the Gulf making it work.

Now given that ULH does not work for indian carriers (low yields, too much competion), what do you suggest? Indian carriers becoming feeders to European and Gulf airlines???

Seriously if Jet's BRU hub unravels, it was not for the lack of trying. It may have failed, may have been a bad decision in hindsight, but no-one could have been 100% sure (not even the armchair CEO's) that the whole strategy would have been a failure.

I say bravo for Jet Airways for trying to be the better Indian airline and trying to succesfully compete against powerful against powerful other airlines (BA, LH, AF, Emirates...)


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5818 times:

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 5):
You have been bashing Jet for years for not embracing ULH, still ULH hardly works wih only a few very rich carriers in the Gulf making it work.

I've never criticized 9W for not embracing ULH, but for setting up anything but an Indian hub. But let's say it should pursue ULH. Why does it work for the Gulf carriers? Where do most of those passengers go from North America on those carriers? Right to 9W's turf, that it (and AI and ultimately the GOI) has basically handed over on a silver platter to EK/EY/QR while it pursued becoming a tertiary Belgian carrier. And what is one of the very few things people pay a premium for? Nonstop flights. Indians, and less so others, will pay a premium to fly nonstop. But when you add this BRU stop, your product becomes just as valuable, ie cheap, as any other one stop on EY/EK/QR/TK/BA/AF/LH/etc.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 5):
no-one could have been 100% sure (not even the armchair CEO's) that the whole strategy would have been a failure.

I was 100% sure before, during, and after. Anyone with a modicum of network experience would know a scissor hub is a fool's errand, much like the ludicrous "relief hub". 9W missed an opportunity to grow and own an India focused international network, and now it has to undo the BRU operation to return to where it should have been all along.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5793 times:

With only 2 routes left through BRU, 9W might as well serve DEL-EWR/BOM-YYZ nonstop. It won't be much of a hub anymore...


Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 748 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5773 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 7):
9W might as well serve DEL-EWR/BOM-YYZ nonstop

I think you meant the reverse pairing, DEL-YYZ and BOM-EWR. I don't think DEL-YYZ can be sustained from a yield perspective. There is very little Business class demand.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5770 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 8):
I think you meant the reverse pairing, DEL-YYZ and BOM-EWR. I don't think DEL-YYZ can be sustained from a yield perspective. There is very little Business class demand.

Correct, that was a typo.

Although, now that I think about it, both DEL-YYZ and BOM-EWR have competition. BOM-EWR in particular has heavy competition, and I don't know whether DEL-YYZ would be able to sustain 2 carriers when it can barely sustain 1 as is. Perhaps doing it backwards would be a better idea.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5746 times:

9W needs to decide on an alliance first, and then evaluate one-stop overseas hub versus non-stop India hub for flights to NA. 9W needs B787 delivered(10 on order) before it can embark on non-stop India hub strategy for NA.

Premium on non-stop EWR-BOM RT and EWR-DEL RT over one-stop varies from 7 to 22% depending on month of travel(higher premium in Dec).


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5713 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I've never criticized 9W for not embracing ULH, but for setting up anything but an Indian hub.

At the time the BRU hub was set up, Indian airport infrastructure wasn't adequate enough for a home-grown one. That is, however, no longer the case. I do think the future of the BRU hub will depend, in part, on which alliance Jet may join.

If Jet joins Star, and if Air Canada and Brussels Airlines do go ahead with their rumored plans to have the former operate YYZ-BRU and the later BRU-YUL, and if the economics of ULH are not that attractive (yes, lots of if, I know), then perhaps it makes sense to turn BRU into a terminator, with continuation on code-shares to YYZ, YUL, IAD, EWR, JFK and ORD.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5706 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
At the time the BRU hub was set up, Indian airport infrastructure wasn't adequate enough for a home-grown one. That is, however, no longer the case. I do think the future of the BRU hub will depend, in part, on which alliance Jet may join.

If Jet joins Star, and if Air Canada and Brussels Airlines do go ahead with their rumored plans to have the former operate YYZ-BRU and the later BRU-YUL, and if the economics of ULH are not that attractive (yes, lots of if, I know), then perhaps it makes sense to turn BRU into a terminator, with continuation on code-shares to YYZ, YUL, IAD, EWR, JFK and ORD.

After interviewing a senior 9W manager last week, I've found that holding breath over 9W joining an alliance is a waste of time. Goyal appears to want to feed and work with all 3 alliances, yielding the maximum flexibility to 9W. Think of them as the AS of India.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5652 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
At the time the BRU hub was set up, Indian airport infrastructure wasn't adequate enough for a home-grown one. That is, however, no longer the case. I do think the future of the BRU hub will depend, in part, on which alliance Jet may join.

I've heard all the reasons for the hub; none of them make much sense. Airlines have been hubbing at dumps for decades, whether it was the old HKG, SVO, LHR, JFK, CAI, MEX, AUH, and on and on. Some passengers may have avoided connecting in a BOM or DEL hub, probably rare at a competitive price, but the local passengers have no choice, and it's the local passengers that 9W should have been going after and building loyalty. The local pax worth having are willing to pay a premium for a nonstop, but w/ a BRU stop, 9W is just like any other option out there, rather than the preferred local carrier that it should have been.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 489 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5620 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 10):
9W needs to decide on an alliance first, and then evaluate one-stop overseas hub versus non-stop India hub for flights to NA. 9W needs B787 delivered(10 on order) before it can embark on non-stop India hub strategy for NA.

Premium on non-stop EWR-BOM RT and EWR-DEL RT over one-stop varies from 7 to 22% depending on month of travel(higher premium in Dec).

I am very much interested to know, yet my posts remain mostly unanswered, regarding the fact that the A333s are soon to be delivered to 9W. I don't know how anything else might make sense with more aircrafts being added, coupled to a JFK and BRU pullout, unless they are shifting hubs to another Euro hub eventually with a move to some alliance.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
Why does it work for the Gulf carriers? Where do most of those passengers go from North America on those carriers? Right to 9W's turf, that it (and AI and ultimately the GOI) has basically handed over on a silver platter to EK/EY/QR while it pursued becoming a tertiary Belgian carrier.

With Indian aviation rules and the GOI's way of mishandling the commercial aviation sector. I feel this cannot be changed in the near future at all. The only way 9W can measure up against the Gulf carriers, however little it may be, they have to team up with an Euro carrier.



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5532 times:

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 14):
I don't know how anything else might make sense with more aircrafts being added, coupled to a JFK and BRU pullout, unless they are shifting hubs to another Euro hub eventually with a move to some alliance.

9W's request for route authority to MUC point to a possible entry into Star. Time will tell.


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5230 times:

Per another post on this forum (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5574487/), the MUC airport website shows a scheduled BLR-MUC-BLR routing starting 14-March-2013. Is that another sign?


Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5031 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I've never criticized 9W for not embracing ULH, but for setting up anything but an Indian hub. But let's say it should pursue ULH. Why does it work for the Gulf carriers? Where do most of those passengers go from North America on those carriers? Right to 9W's turf, that it (and AI and ultimately the GOI) has basically handed over on a silver platter to EK/EY/QR while it pursued becoming a tertiary Belgian carrier. And what is one of the very few things people pay a premium for? Nonstop flights. Indians, and less so others, will pay a premium to fly nonstop. But when you add this BRU stop, your product becomes just as valuable, ie cheap, as any other one stop on EY/EK/QR/TK/BA/AF/LH/etc.

Why does it work for Gulf carriers and no-one else? Cause they cross-subsidize between flights and have a network effect that basically enables them to become a one-stop shop for 3/4 of the population of the world therefore creating loyalty and profits (for some)

Indians will pay a premium? I was under the impression through my reading and some anecdotal evidence that US-America traffic is big but mainly consists of VFR traffic. As such for example, the Indian student, the indian family visiting their son or daughter or the indian son or daughter coming back for a wedding is definitely not interested by non-stop for a premium especially when a stop-over only results in a 1-2 hour travel time difference if that given that any Indian airline would be hard pressed to serve all the main American gateways like LH, BA, AF and Emirates recently have been doing.

The truth is that any Indian carrier would be hard pressed to catch up now. 20 years ago with good infrastructure and an amazing supportive government probably.


Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I was 100% sure before, during, and after. Anyone with a modicum of network experience would know a scissor hub is a fool's errand, much like the ludicrous "relief hub". 9W missed an opportunity to grow and own an India focused international network, and now it has to undo the BRU operation to return to where it should have been all along.

Air India has been failing miserably, Kingfisher don't get me started, what makes 9W so special that it could have actually managed to create an india focused international network. Should it have built it's own airport or bought its own airport? Yes it's easy to criticize but internationlly, none of the indian airlines have succeeded.

9W has been the most succesful out of the 3 but obviously that was not enough!


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2158 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4947 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 8):
I think you meant the reverse pairing, DEL-YYZ and BOM-EWR. I don't think DEL-YYZ can be sustained from a yield perspective. There is very little Business class demand.

No, it cannot. There is a reason why AI keeps pushing back the re-launch of YYZDEL. In fact, they haven't even bothered to route the operation via a European city like they did with Chicago and New York!!

I can't even imagine that the yields are anything but dogs on the ORD-DEL, EWR-BOM and JFK-DEL-BOM sectors, either.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 9):
Although, now that I think about it, both DEL-YYZ and BOM-EWR have competition. BOM-EWR in particular has heavy competition, and I don't know whether DEL-YYZ would be able to sustain 2 carriers when it can barely sustain 1 as is. Perhaps doing it backwards would be a better idea.

Canada-India has an insane amount of competition, and it is always about price, price, price. Moreover, the population size is FAR smaller to work with. US-India nonstop flights at least pull from a larger demographic.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
At the time the BRU hub was set up, Indian airport infrastructure wasn't adequate enough for a home-grown one. That is, however, no longer the case. I do think the future of the BRU hub will depend, in part, on which alliance Jet may join.

Excellent point. Things have changed over the years for Indian airports, especially DEL.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 17):
Indians will pay a premium? I was under the impression through my reading and some anecdotal evidence that US-America traffic is big but mainly consists of VFR traffic. As such for example, the Indian student, the indian family visiting their son or daughter or the indian son or daughter coming back for a wedding is definitely not interested by non-stop for a premium especially when a stop-over only results in a 1-2 hour travel time difference if that given that any Indian airline would be hard pressed to serve all the main American gateways like LH, BA, AF and Emirates recently have been doing.

Oy. That's not necessarily accurate.

You have to remember that there are still plenty of business pursuits in India, and often times corporations will permit premium class travel given the long duration of the journey. There are also a lot of wealthy Indian-born professionals living and residing in the United States who will pay for a premium class ticket to India.

Put simply, it's a misconception that all US-India flights are carrying bottom-yield VFR and student traffic from low/middle class income brackets paying dirt cheap fares. If you've ever tried to book a flight to India during high season, even 9-12 months out, the fares are astronomically high, yet the flights are ALWAYS packed.

STILL, the reality is that year-round sustainability for nonstop flights to India is economically challenging for several reasons:

1. Stage length is very long (leading to high costs for fuel, crew, aircraft, maintenance, etc).
2. The markets are highly seasonal. Nobody wants to travel to India in the hot summer months. When demand sloughs off, yet costs remain the same, the route bleeds money.
3. Competition is intense (and compounded by the presence of privately-owned/government-propped carriers that hold superior advantages over publicly-traded ones). There is no debating this.

All of these factors exist INDEPENDENTLY of the fact that yes, the vast majority of North American residents of Indian origin/citizenship are price-discretionary travelers.

However, I maintain that there is still a decent amount of premium demand for flights to India from North America, however the vast majority of it hails from the US, not Canada.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 17):
The truth is that any Indian carrier would be hard pressed to catch up now. 20 years ago with good infrastructure and an amazing supportive government probably.

Yes. India has missed the boat completely on establishing a robust network/flag carrier capable of operating domestic and intercontinental flights at a profitable level, and it is indeed at the fault of the GOI and infrastructural lag.

I blame all of the failures of Indian carriers and their dismal financial outlooks solely on poor government policy, period.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 17):
Air India has been failing miserably, Kingfisher don't get me started, what makes 9W so special that it could have actually managed to create an india focused international network. Should it have built it's own airport or bought its own airport? Yes it's easy to criticize but internationlly, none of the indian airlines have succeeded.

Put simply, the Middle Eastern carriers have become the flag carriers for India.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4598 times:

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 17):
Why does it work for Gulf carriers and no-one else?

They have a lot of benefits, but most importantly, they have a huge growing market nearby called India. Most of the top flows beyond the Middle East from just about any destination West, ie Europe/Africa/North America, is to India. Indian carriers need to focus on and invest in getting that traffic back, not sinking it in a hub for Belgians.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 17):

Indians will pay a premium?

Passengers pay premiums for very few things; one of them is indeed nonstops. 9W, or any premium network Indian carrier, should be able to drive a premium among Indian passengers because of their schedule and loyalty program, particularly with a strong hub in DEL or BOM where there actually is premium demand. The premium passenger in DEL wanting to go to CDG, for example, will pay more for a nonstop versus the GCC carriers, and 9W should focus on that passenger. Even the lower end passengers indifferent to one stops provide a benefit. I looked at a random roundtrip CDGDEL, and the lowest nonstop roundtrip fare is $963. The lowest one stop is $767--there's that premium for nonstop again. In any case, spreading that $767 over a CDG-DXB-DEL routing means a yield of 8.3 cents. If 9W were to match that fare on a nonstop, the yield would be 9.4cents, or a 13% increase over the one stop. Again people prefer a nonstop, so with the better schedule and Indian point of sale loyalty, 9W could easily steal back those passengers from the GCC carriers. It's Indian carriers traffic to lose.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 17):
The truth is that any Indian carrier would be hard pressed to catch up now. 20 years ago with good infrastructure and an amazing supportive government probably.

This is true, but again Indian carriers have the advantage of being where the traffic is. If 9W focused on building a hub in DEL since 2007, rather than BRU, it would have invested in the Indian market, rather than the Belgian one, and would have a ready to go hub the instant the new terminal in DEL opened. What do they have to show for 5 years invested in the BRU market? What if they invested the same in BOM/DEL?

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 17):
what makes 9W so special that it could have actually managed to create an india focused international network.

The same applies for AI/9W/KF--they all followed each other like lemmings over a cliff with nonsense ideas like a scissor hub in every corner of the planet. Had any of them invested in the Indian market consistently and focused on taking the traffic back from the GCC carriers--rather than recreating the GCC carriers' operation in bloody BEG/FRA/MUC/BRU--they'd be in a much better position now. That said, the GOI would do nothing to help regardless.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 18):
Put simply, the Middle Eastern carriers have become the flag carriers for India.

Thanks mostly to the GOI, but also to the Indian carriers who chased silly ideas like a PVG/BRU/BEG scissor hub or BLRSFO nonstops...



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4569 times:

The question mark can be deleted from the title - 9W has confirmed that this route will be canned.


Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4242 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
Passengers pay premiums for very few things; one of them is indeed nonstops. 9W, or any premium network Indian carrier, should be able to drive a premium among Indian passengers because of their schedule and loyalty program, particularly with a strong hub in DEL or BOM where there actually is premium demand. The premium passenger in DEL wanting to go to CDG, for example, will pay more for a nonstop versus the GCC carriers, and 9W should focus on that passenger. Even the lower end passengers indifferent to one stops provide a benefit. I looked at a random roundtrip CDGDEL, and the lowest nonstop roundtrip fare is $963. The lowest one stop is $767--there's that premium for nonstop again. In any case, spreading that $767 over a CDG-DXB-DEL routing means a yield of 8.3 cents. If 9W were to match that fare on a nonstop, the yield would be 9.4cents, or a 13% increase over the one stop. Again people prefer a nonstop, so with the better schedule and Indian point of sale loyalty, 9W could easily steal back those passengers from the GCC carriers. It's Indian carriers traffic to lose.

I agree on 0-14 hour journey that people will indeed a premium to fly non stop. Beyond that i.e. India- US distances it is very debatable: Losing 2 hours on a 22 hour journey is different than losing 2 hours on a 10 hour journey.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
The same applies for AI/9W/KF--they all followed each other like lemmings over a cliff with nonsense ideas like a scissor hub in every corner of the planet. Had any of them invested in the Indian market consistently and focused on taking the traffic back from the GCC carriers--rather than recreating the GCC carriers' operation in bloody BEG/FRA/MUC/BRU--they'd be in a much better position now. That said, the GOI would do nothing to help regardless.

I'm sorry but there is a reason why they did it, and a reason why the 777 LR have never worked in AI's fleet... The yields are just not there therefore the Scissor hub strategy.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
This is true, but again Indian carriers have the advantage of being where the traffic is. If 9W focused on building a hub in DEL since 2007, rather than BRU, it would have invested in the Indian market, rather than the Belgian one, and would have a ready to go hub the instant the new terminal in DEL opened. What do they have to show for 5 years invested in the BRU market? What if they invested the same in BOM/DEL?

They would have been more successful at capturing traffic to Europe, but struggling as much at being profitable to the US.

All in all you keep on ranting about scissor hubs but have no proof that ULH would work which makes your point moot.

I would argue that to compete against the Gulf airlines, Indian Airlines need to get into alliances ASAP, and start revenue sharing on flights to/from Europe and the US with their European partners. Once enough market share has been established within the target markets, then they should start attempting flying ULH. In the meantime there is nothing wrong about being strategic about these things... If you can't compete as is, try an alliance against with the lesser evil against your biggest enemy.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3321 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4081 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 15):

9W's request for route authority to MUC point to a possible entry into Star. Time will tell.
Quoting Nimish (Reply 16):
Per another post on this forum (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5574487/), the MUC airport website shows a scheduled BLR-MUC-BLR routing starting 14-March-2013. Is that another sign?

or perhaps HYD-MUC?


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 22):
or perhaps HYD-MUC?

BLR-MUC is expected to be the first route.

I'd be surprised to see HYD-MUC considering that LH can't even sustain HYD-FRA.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3981 times:

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 21):
I agree on 0-14 hour journey that people will indeed a premium to fly non stop. Beyond that i.e. India- US distances it is very debatable: Losing 2 hours on a 22 hour journey is different than losing 2 hours on a 10 hour journey.

No, nonstop pretty much always drives a premium. Consider EWR/LAXSIN--SQ can demand a premium for the nonstop versus the onestops. Whether that premium is enough to offset the increased costs is another story.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 21):
I'm sorry but there is a reason why they did it, and a reason why the 777 LR have never worked in AI's fleet... The yields are just not there therefore the Scissor hub strategy.

Adding a stop will tank yields, so the scissor hub strategy was a nonstarter from the get go. If there was such thing as a successful scissor hub there'd be more--any--of them around.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 21):
They would have been more successful at capturing traffic to Europe, but struggling as much at being profitable to the US.

They were going to struggle with a scissor hub regardless. Better to lose money on developing a market for passengers to/from India and market penetration among Indians than a sideshow in Belgium. If 9W is going to lose tens of millions of dollars, wouldn't it be best to do so building market share and awareness in India?

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 21):
In the meantime there is nothing wrong about being strategic about these things...

No but following a deadend strategy that every other Indian carrier was proposing, ie hubs in MUC/FRA/BEG/BRU/Timbuktu, is just a waste of resources. 9W should have slowly and aggressively added to its DEL network, increasing loyalty in India and taking back passengers from the GCC and European carriers with a wide network. A strong partnership with a EU carrier would have helped, and perhaps one ULH route to NYC to build a presence and get ahead of AI at the time. EY and QR have managed major majority-connecting operations out of shoe boxes; there's no reason 9W couldn't have created a majority-local operation at DEL that would have been ready to move into the new terminal and dialed up to increase connecting opportunities once the facilities came online.



E pur si muove -Galileo
25 vinniewinnie : Airlines set a premium for direct routes because they know that people will pay more for the travel time saving but there is very little evidence tha
26 IrishAyes : There were other extenuating circumstances that made things challenging for 9W. One being the lack of aircraft, two being the infrastructural challen
27 MaverickM11 : I'm just talking about the yield, or the fare pax are willing to pay for various routing, and I guarantee people will pay a premium to fly EWR/LAXSIN
28 SATexan : One point needs to be emphasized. SIN-HKG-SFO and LAX-NRT-SIN both benefit from strong O&D and business traffic in all sectors. IAH-DME-SIN as a
29 hohd : No matter what 9W does, scissor hub at BRU or elsewhere or nonstop, they are going to attract only a certain amount of passengers in India. Primarily
30 vinniewinnie : The trick is indeed to find enough people to pay enough of a premium. Highly unlikely for such long flights to be able to find enough customers to ma
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