Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Air Canada Announces Plan For International Growth  
User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 258 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20969 times:

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=583

Basic highlights of their plan for international growth include:

-Adding 2 more B77W's to their mainline fleet with new international routes to be announced at a later date

-Hire 900 more employees as part of their plans to start its new low cost leisure airline (announced on Sept 20, 2012)

-Transferring 15 of their E175's to Sky Regional, which will operate them under the AC Express name starting in February 2013


Quite some interesting times going on at Air Canada, quite curious to see how this new low cost airline of theirs will do.

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20827 times:

Sounds pretty interesting. Where are the 777s coming from?

User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20807 times:

Will be interesting to see what happens when the E75s leave the fleet. Under the government imposed contract there was a ratio of 29:100 ASMs from any regional carrier to mainline in the North American market. I was always under the impression that they were really close to that already so it would have been hard to get ride of the airplanes too quickly. I guess that's assuming AC plans to follow through and follow the contract that was put into place at the end of July.


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20782 times:

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 1):

Boeing. AC has some on order.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20755 times:

Any best guesses of where AC will begin services? In South America, I'd say that GIG would be the favourite contender given that GRU, EZE and SCL already see AC service.

No need to mention Rio's strong economic ties with Canada. There are based in the city companies like Vale (Inco), Bank of Montreal, Brookfield, Gran Tierra Energy and the National Bank of Canada. Also the strong economical situation of the city also makes it more attractive.

Perhaps 3/4x weekly services with the 763. But for that I guess that AC would need to deploy the 777 elsewhere to release a 767 to fly the route.

[Edited 2012-10-01 06:48:58]


Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20570 times:

It would be more of a 787 route but I could see AC start CAN 3-4 days a week fall of 2013. They are expecting 787s Q1 2014 so after an initial go it could transfer to a 7 day a week 787 flight a few months after AC takes on the 787s.

In Europe FRA would be the obvious destination for 77Ws with cargo. It seems there is 1 77Ws out of YUL and 2 77Ws YYZ per day in October. Last time I flew this route it was on a 767 so perhaps make this year round. I am not sure if it could make it with a good load of freight but YYZ-PVG is a 77L right now, perhaps upgrade that and you have a 77L you could use on an extra flight down to SYD or you could also look at opening up GIG with the 77L (freight could make it worth while in a 77L vs 767.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineC172Akula From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 20201 times:

Any chance with this announcement that YYC could keep the 77W on LHR year round (summer upguage only currently)?

User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 20165 times:

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 6):
Any chance with this announcement that YYC could keep the 77W on LHR year round (summer upguage only currently)?

Doubt that....They are running 767 this winter!


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19932 times:

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 3):
Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 1):

Boeing. AC has some on order.

I had thought there were 3 77Ws currently on firm order....

Quoting AF086 (Reply 4):
Any best guesses of where AC will begin services? In South America, I'd say that GIG would be the favourite contender given that GRU, EZE and SCL already see AC service.
Quoting AF086 (Reply 4):
Perhaps 3/4x weekly services with the 763. But for that I guess that AC would need to deploy the 777 elsewhere to release a 767 to fly the route.

   I'd agree GIG would likely start as a 763 service and would likely transition to 788 when they start coming. During the soccer World Cup in 2014 and the Olys in 2016, 77W upgauge seems likely.

If there is to be additional 77W service to either FRA or LHR, releasing a 763, might this get redeployed to open up MEL ? Would have to be via HNL I suppose. Or maybe CAN, although CZ are already doing CAN - YVR 5x weekly. Or maybe the 763 goes back to lessor.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19857 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
If there is to be additional 77W service to either FRA or LHR, releasing a 763, might this get redeployed to open up MEL ? Would have to be via HNL I suppose.

Wouldn't it be more favorable for AC to use a 77L on this routing? I'd much rather have non-stop flight to MEL than have to make a stopover in HNL


User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4923 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19738 times:

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 9):
Wouldn't it be more favorable for AC to use a 77L on this routing? I'd much rather have non-stop flight to MEL than have to make a stopover in HNL

I think it would depend if the traffic were there. With a stop in HNL, does AC still not have Fifth Freedom rights between HNL and Australia?



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinechrisa330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19704 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
I had thought there were 3 77Ws currently on firm order....

The order was expanded - there are a total of 5 on order.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19635 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 9):
Wouldn't it be more favorable for AC to use a 77L on this routing? I'd much rather have non-stop flight to MEL than have to make a stopover in HNL

I think it would depend if the traffic were there. With a stop in HNL, does AC still not have Fifth Freedom rights between HNL and Australia?

I don't think the traffic is there for MEL unfortunately  . Perhaps they could do a tag-on to MEL like UA does but that tag on covers both flights to LAX and SFO.

If AC wants to add in another route in Oceania I would say AKL is the one to do because it opens up NZ and can add frequency to New Zealand. Also with NZ being in *A they can access more Australian cities with a very easy transfer process in AKL.

Run a 3x weekly service to AKL on the days NZ doesn't.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19579 times:

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 11):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
I had thought there were 3 77Ws currently on firm order....

The order was expanded - there are a total of 5 on order.

Hmmm....I'd then make a guess that the "extra" 77Ws will replace 763s in the fleet. There can't be that many more destinations where AC would be using 77Ws. I think most new int'l destinations are more likely to be 788 routes: BEY, IST, GIG (ultimately), MEL, KIX (again), maybe MNL. Also maybe something direct ex-YUL. SIN occurs to me but there still isn't, I think, a strong natural market. Also, it's far enough that I'm not sure it can be reached n/s from YVR, needs a stop at INC which would require even more negotiation.

As for the 763 I previously referred to as being released, maybe YYZ-SVO ??



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineflyb From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 685 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19282 times:

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 7):
Quoting C172Akula (Reply 6):
Any chance with this announcement that YYC could keep the 77W on LHR year round (summer upguage only currently)?

Doubt that....They are running 767 this winter!

I don't see why they wouldn't. If AC is trying to grow internationally they are going to try to grow traffic through their hubs. With YYC being an official hub I could see AC 77W year round, and moving the 767 to the discount carrier


User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 18857 times:

Quoting flyb (Reply 14):
I don't see why they wouldn't. If AC is trying to grow internationally they are going to try to grow traffic through their hubs. With YYC being an official hub I could see AC 77W year round, and moving the 767 to the discount carrier

I see them running the 777 to FRA rather than LHR from YYC and switching the LHR run to the 333


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 18612 times:

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 11):
The order was expanded - there are a total of 5 on order.

According to aerotransport.org, 2 for delivery in 2013 (as mentioned in the AC PR) and the other 3 in 2014.

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Thread starter):
Transferring 15 of their E175's to Sky Regional, which will operate them under the AC Express name starting in February 2013

Presumably there was a bidding process betw Sky Regional & Jazz and perhaps other interested carriers?



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2979 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 18542 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
With a stop in HNL, does AC still not have Fifth Freedom rights between HNL and Australia?

Yes, along with SFO, NAN and PPT. Given that QF has left SFO, YYZ-SFO-SYD would make more sense than HNL, which didn't work for CP or AC. The competition on SFO-SYD is UA's clapped out 744s, or NZ via AKL.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 12):
Perhaps they could do a tag-on to MEL like UA does

Under the bilateral, Australian government permission would be required. If permission were granted and SFO-SYD started, a tag to MEL would feed both the YVR and SFO flights.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 18413 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 16):
Presumably there was a bidding process betw Sky Regional & Jazz and perhaps other interested carriers?

Rumour is not.


User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 18333 times:

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 15):
I see them running the 777 to FRA rather than LHR from YYC and switching the LHR run to the 333

I'm quite surprised the 333 isn't on the LHR route, last year it was the reverse with the 763 operating FRA and the 333 on LHR. If the 763's are being freed up for the low cost division could we see YYC-NRT upgraded to a 77W?


User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17972 times:

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 19):

That was before LH pulled out of the YYC market.


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17869 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 16):
Presumably there was a bidding process betw Sky Regional & Jazz and perhaps other interested carriers?
Quoting multimark (Reply 18):
Rumour is not.

As much as Jazz would liked to have had the additional flying,operating a small sub-fleet would have been challenging. I'm not at all surprised to hear Sky Regional was awarded the flying as they would have likely flown the E75 for considerably less compared to Jazz's mature costs.

AC agreement with it's pilots allowed for up to 60 regional jets seating 76 or less to be operated by CPA carriers. By my count it's now half way to that mark;Jazz 16 x 705 + Sky Regional 15 x E75 = 31. What remains to be seen is if Jazz is able to increase it's 705 fleet going forward at the expense of the CRJ 200 and DH1,considering the ASM limitations of the AC pilot contract.

For Jazz,it's future hinges greatly on being able to also increase it's DH4 fleet, The challenge is that AC also has Sky Regional now in the mix operating the DH4 with a route expansion occuring later this month,and they too would certainly would like to increase their flying. Jazz has a CPA agreement that expires in 2020;interesting time ahead.

[Edited 2012-10-01 10:43:45]

User currently offlinem1m2 From Canada, joined Dec 2011, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17616 times:

As per AM 680 news:

MONTREAL - Air Canada said Monday it will expand its relationship with non-unionized Sky Regional Airlines to include routes to the United States.

I'm thinking the key here is "non-unionized".


User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4923 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17418 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 16):
Presumably there was a bidding process betw Sky Regional & Jazz and perhaps other interested carriers?

Could there be?

AC has a CPA agreement with Jazz/Chorus on a set seat/mile charge. SkyRegional, like everyone else with a computer knows what that seat/mile charge is. SkyRegional then would have offered to fly the E175 for less.

I am curious if Jazz/Chorus could even have countered under the CPA. Namely, while it protects Jazz/Chorus in a lot of ways, does it also restrict it?

Quoting m1m2 (Reply 22):
I'm thinking the key here is "non-unionized".

I am thinking seat/mile cost is the key, union or not. Talk internally is that SkyRegional will be unionized before too long.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 21):
AC agreement with it's pilots allowed for up to 60 regional jets seating 76 or less to be operated by CPA carriers. By my count it's now half way to that mark;Jazz 16 x 705 + Sky Regional 15 x E75 = 31.

What about the CL65s? Are they not included in the number? Last time I checked, Jazz/Chorus had 35. (9 -100s, 25 -200s operated for AC, and one charter -200)



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2235 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17224 times:

I do not see the 777's used to Europe except for perhaps subbing in for flights. The Euro market is still somewhat soft except for the key routes. With LH Cargo and Air Cargo Germany, plus the belly cargo of LH and AC's 77W there is quite a lot of volume there already for the cargo side. If AC needs more themself watch for a sharing agreement with LH similar to that with passengers.

I see one 777 going to South America at least seasonally to open another direct route or replace a 767. I see another Chinese city opening up as well for the second.


25 amritpal : I really hope AC would start YVR-DEL. YYZ at least has direct to India using AI or Jet Airways using one stop. I would never fly AI. There service was
26 JAGflyer : I wonder why AC has not capitalized on the Indian market. Granted, AI and 9W both fly to DEL from YYZ I still see potential for connecting people out
27 superjeff : CP flew YVR-HNL-SYD for years, and there's an Open Skies treaty between the U.S. and Canada, as well as between the U.S. and Australia. I think that
28 IrishAyes : Potentially, yes, although I have zero clue about where things stand with regards to the air transport agreements between Brasil and Canada. I know t
29 behramjee : AC does not operate its own flights from YVR nor YYZ to India because quite frankly it is not a profitable venture. Neither 9W nor AI make a profit fl
30 AF086 : The Brazil-Canada bilateral was ammended in February 2011. It now allows unlimited frequencies between the two countries. So the doors are open for A
31 krisyyz : I'm sure the 77W or the 77L has the range, AC flew YYZ-DEL with their A345/A343, I think the -300 had to make a fuelling stop somewhere in Norway or
32 JAGflyer : The -300 used to operate via ZRH if I remember correctly. My post was not recommending a YVR-India flight but rather YYZ-DEL or YYZ-BOM. I cannot see
33 krisyyz : I think that flight went to a 763 later on, I heard from an AC FA that a lot of the ZRH premium pax were complaining about the India bound passengers
34 yegbey01 : To be exact, the YYZ-DEL flight used to do a technical in ARN and when the Russians started playing politics and they denied AC airspace, they ended u
35 chrisa330 : They have 5, but haven't confirmed what will happen with the extra 3. Those 3 are being delivered in 2014, so still some time to refine the plan
36 9252fly : That route would be worse than YYZ - DEL from a profitability perspective. Thought I read that AI route DEL - YYZ is suspended due to severe losses w
37 Kaiarahi : That's not how bilaterals work. Canada is not a party to the U.S.-Australia bilateral. The intermediate points need to be set out in the agreement be
38 juanchito : Any plans for growth in Latin America? Juanchito
39 9252fly : Good catch! You're right,the key being " 60 jets up to 65 seats". The last of the CRJ -100s will exit the fleet in May,leaving 25 CRJ -200s. No point
40 YYCspotter : Possibly, but its unlikely... if anything, YYC-NRT will be on 767 until they are replaced by 787s, sooner or later. correct me if i'm wrong, but ther
41 connies4ever : The press release link provided by the OP states that more -700 & -900 flying will be coming. India from Canada is a very seasonal market and as
42 chrisa330 : Where in the AC press release does it state that?
43 connies4ever : You're right, my bad. Reference to more -700/900s comes from thread Air Canada Narrowbody Fleet: Embraers, LargerCRJs. My mind has turned to mush, and
44 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Open the bar and firm up the mush
45 Post contains links krisyyz : Thanks for the clarification. The 767 fleet must run at a very high utilization rate, AC has some big plans for the initial batch of 14 787s, replace
46 Viscount724 : As far as I know, no foreign carriers have ever had cabotage rights on domestic sectors in Brazil. That's very unusual anywhere (one of the rare exce
47 brilondon : What is your source or reasoning for this statement?
48 Viscount724 : That's not correct. Just read the bilateral again and it clearly states the 2nd point in Australia is a point of Canada's choosing, provided it's a p
49 Viscount724 : Probably because FRA is a much bigger cargo market than LHR.
50 Viscount724 : YVR-DEL (6026 nm) is 271 nm shorter than YYZ-DEL (6297 nm). Had it not been for 9/11, AC would have commenced YVR-DEL nonstop seasonal service in 200
51 yegbey01 : Exactly...In addition to having no competition into a centrally located airport in Europe vs LHR.
52 YVRLTN : Often there is still not enough capacity. Cargo like pax transits through FRA to India and oil spots like Kazakhstan plus they cover a lot of eastern
53 RP TPA : I believe the current US-Canada bilateral allows any Canadian carrier to fly into the US, with full traffic rights from that US point to a 3rd countr
54 LipeGIG : I would say that's a good business (and of course leisure) flow to justify a YYZ-GIG flight nowadays. I visited Toronto a couple times during the pas
55 amritpal : You said it pretty correct. That is very true for the folks I know. My parents are flying YVR-DEL on MU. Cheapest they could find. Doesn't even have
56 laca773 : Has AC thought about starting YVR-FRA? Or is this route sufficiently served by Star Partner, LH? Possibly a 787 route?
57 jporterfi : LH already has a daily 346 on this route. I'm not sure how the load factors have been on that flight. AC maybe able to do 3x 77L to complement the se
58 Kaiarahi : That will teach me to rely on memory.
59 sunrisevalley : This is a route best suited to Air Transat's A332' s depending on which MTOW version they have.
60 PA515 : Air NZ's AKL-YVR-AKL will increase to five weekly 77E Dec 2012 to Mar 2013. PA515
61 yellowtail : They be crazy not look at places like GUA or PTY or even some of the stronger Canadian leisure destinations like RTB and BZE
62 pnwtraveler : If there isn't as much premium traffic and cargo on those routes then expect to eventually see the LCC take them on. Or perhaps as a tag on with flig
63 connies4ever : Destinations like that would most likely be left to the LCC, which will start up next year. Many current Mexico/Central America/Caribbean destination
64 thenoflyzone : TS is having a hard time making 3000 km routes to the Caribbean work for them, much less dealing with the nightmare of starting a 11160km route form Y
65 9252fly : I'm interested to see what AC decides as a name for their LCC. As an armchair CEO,I would franchise the JetStar name. It's got a nice ring to it. Now
66 Post contains images connies4ever : Well, won't be Tango and won't be Zip ! But I would bet on something with AC in it, like Air Canada Leisure, something along those lines.
67 yyz717 : That makes the most sense. Hopefully they don't spend too much time thinking of a name. The flying public really doesn't care.
68 Post contains links and images longhauler : I agree, I just hope they don't "committee" the hell out of it. Its very simple, the airplanes are already flying, the destinations already exist ...
69 Kaiarahi : Which is why they've used names like Tango, Jazz, Express - same in both languages. Branding is definitely important in Quebec.
70 Viscount724 : That was only for a couple of years in the 1980s, before PW's acquisition of CP. Until 1968, when "CP Air" was adopted as the marketing name, the air
71 Post contains links tayser : Yep, it's the Australia-Canadian bilateral that restricts which US/other ports either country's carriers can fly via. text to 1988 treaty (scroll dow
72 Post contains links cxh : Well, it appears the new "LCC" is actually going to be a charter/leisure airline modelled after Air Transat and Sunwing Airlines, not a traditional LC
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
WPost: Dulles Preparing For International Growth posted Sat Mar 31 2012 08:18:33 by washingtonian
Air Canada Losing CAD1bn For Being Canadian posted Sat Nov 13 2010 04:33:08 by LIPZ
Air Canada Pilots Call For Creation Of Department posted Thu Jun 17 2010 14:56:17 by m11stephen
Air Canada Announces .. Montreal-Brussels Daily posted Thu Aug 20 2009 05:16:51 by Flyyul
Air Canada Announces IAH/Hawaii/Sun Stuff posted Wed Aug 19 2009 09:29:16 by Flyyul
Air Canada May File For Bankruptcy Protection posted Tue Mar 31 2009 07:35:35 by A332
Air Canada To Charge $3 For Headsets posted Tue Aug 19 2008 11:10:16 by JoePatroni
Has Air Canada Post A Report For Their 1st Q Yet? posted Tue May 6 2008 02:39:18 by Aircanada014
Air Canada Announces 2007 Financial Results posted Thu Feb 7 2008 07:05:24 by RP TPA
Air Canada An Example For Other Airlines posted Sat Sep 15 2007 10:49:09 by Jwb2