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2013 SNA Slot Allocation; AS/DL/F9 Reduce, WN Adds  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25049 posts, RR: 46
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7988 times:

The County is out with air carrier capacity and slot allocations for the 2013 calendar year.

Unlike most years where activities have been pretty stable, 2013 sees quite a few changes.

Highlights.
o Alaska is temporarily (up to 3 years) returning 4 slots (2 were not used anyhow)
o Delta is permanently returning 3 slots.
o In addition Delta affiliate Compass did not utilize its 3 allocated 2012 slots, so those were vacated. Skywest will instead utilize 3 slots on behalf of Delta but under commuter exemptions.
o Frontier is permanently returning 1 slot by April 2013. (but in reality published schedule change shows it ends January 7th)
o Interjet was allocated 4 slots as a new entrant. Will temporarily return 2 to the pool until it builds is schedule
o Westjet makes permanent its previous temporary return of a single slot. Retains 2 slots.
o Southwest keeps growing – allocated its 54th slot – up 5 from 2012 allocation.

In summary each is allotted following to utilize:

Air Carrier:
Alaska – 10
American – 12
Delta – 8
Fedex – 0.7
Frontier – 3.3
Interjet – 2
Southwest – 54
United – 20
UPS – 0.6
US Airways - 6
WestJet - 2

Commuter:
Mesa – 1 (for US Airways)
Skywest – 3 (for Delta)


Besides slots the County also allocates aircraft capacity at the airport in order to remain below maximum allowed enplanements. This years capacity allocation calls for air carriers to offer 12,208,004 seats.

Lastly, as parking space is also limited at SNA, the County allocated RON parking spots. This year with the expanded terminal open, overnight allocations total 27.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3045 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7896 times:

I'd still like to see AS or QX start SNA-SJC service. AA and B6 have dropped SJC-SNA/LGB recently and I think WN could use some competition. I know AS dropped OAK-SNA, but given their new focus on SJC it seams that may be a good addition to AS's network. I believe QX was awarded SNA slots last time, but declined them, and AS is giving slots back so it's not looking hopeful though.

User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7821 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
o Southwest keeps growing – allocated its 54th slot – up 5 from 2012 allocation.

Just to confirm: Does this mean WN had 49 in 2012 and will have 54 in 2013?

Other questions: Are these new WN slots available for international travel or just domestic? And does WN currently use all of their awarded slots?


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7605 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
American – 12

Weren't there rumors that AA would go down from 12 flights a day at SNA to eight (5 DFW/3 ORD) and close the Admirals Club at SNA? This should stop those rumors.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta is permanently returning 3 slots.

I guess that means SNA-LAS (which some say was used solely for slot-squatting) is a goner. Where are the other DL mainline reductions coming from - ATL, MSP, SLC, or a mix?



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25049 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7426 times:

Yes Horizon was on the waiting list, but declined when they came to the top.
But ultimately AS has continued to shrink its footprint at LA airports over the years, so I guess this move is par for the course.


Regarding SWA, they actually use more slots then they hold. The County has let them "loan" vacant slot positions. They picked up one that way during June also.
At the end of the day it seems SWA is committed to taking any available slot and making use of it. Good for them.


For AA, airlines can and do change schedules all the time. Just in the case of AS, DL and F9 they opted to do so far ahead here.
Nothing stops AA from changing things at SNA as it works it way through the BK process. Anyhow AA is much smaller at SNA today then it ever was. Only a few years back they had almost 30 departures.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11517 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7331 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 3):
Weren't there rumors that AA would go down from 12 flights a day at SNA to eight (5 DFW/3 ORD) and close the Admirals Club at SNA? This should stop those rumors.

Yeah - that seemed highly implausible, considering that from what I've heard AA does quite well on the DFW-SNA route with lots of high-yielding traffic in particular moving over DFW heading east.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Anyhow AA is much smaller at SNA today then it ever was. Only a few years back they had almost 30 departures.

Yes. No more MD80s to LAS/SFO/SJC/RNO and then ERJs to SFO/SJC. Frankly a smart move, as AA never had a shot of making money in those markets. A daily 737 to MIA might work, though.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7043 times:

southwest seems to be doing at SNA what jetblue is doing at LGB. Gobble up any slots when possible.

Will be interesting to see where Delta makes the cuts. They could upsize pretty easily on a few flights and not really change the number of seats if they wanted to. Delta has a pretty sizeable operation to consider in LGB also from SLC so that could just be too many seats in too close an area and they want to try to increase yields?


User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6979 times:

It appears that in April 2013 (4/8/13, to be exact) WN is using all 54 of their slots:

DEN: 4x WN
HOU: 1x WN
LAS: 1x FL, 8x WN
MDW: 1x WN
MEX: 1x FL
OAK: 8x WN
PHX: 7x WN
SFO: 1x FL, 6x WN
SJC: 8x WN
SJD: 1x FL
SMF: 7x WN

Do you think the county will loan them more? Or will they have to wait for other airlines to give up slots before expanding?


User currently offlinemcmax From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6862 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Yeah - that seemed highly implausible, considering that from what I've heard AA does quite well on the DFW-SNA route with lots of high-yielding traffic in particular moving over DFW heading east.

FWIW, the AAngels in the Admiral's Club at SNA have always said they have not heard of any rumors of closing SNA's Admirals Club, and (as I've heard repeated often elsewhere) that SNA has the highest proportion of ExPlats/Plats/Gold outside of an AA hub. Whether that is true or not, and whether the AAngels have access to that information or not--I don't know. But, I'm hoping there's some semblance of truth to it as it gives me hope that my home airport will contain to keep its Admiral's Club.



De minimis non curat lex tamen ego curao
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6741 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6844 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6):
Delta has a pretty sizeable operation to consider in LGB also from SLC so that could just be too many seats in too close an area and they want to try to increase yields?

Honestly, I expect that DL's LGB-SLC service is a not-so-subtle message to B6 that DL will defend the hub at SLC.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
At the end of the day it seems SWA is committed to taking any available slot and making use of it. Good for them.

I'm surprise we haven't heard any whining about how it's so unfair that Southwest has been able to increase its slot portfolio at SNA.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 3):
Weren't there rumors that AA would go down from 12 flights a day at SNA to eight (5 DFW/3 ORD) and close the Admirals Club at SNA? This should stop those rumors.

I don't think those rumors are entirely out-of-line. In the end, if AA intends to operate a cornerstone hub at LAX, the SNA service becomes increasingly marginalized. AA has historically had a strong customer base at SNA thanks to the AirCal acquisition 25 years ago, but the gradual dismantling of that operation makes loyalty to the AA brand & product less valuable. If AA can't get you to the Bay Area, Phoenix, or Vegas then they're a lot less useful to many passengers.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11517 posts, RR: 61
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
I don't think those rumors are entirely out-of-line.

I think they are - at least about AA dramatically reducing their SNA schedule (although I personally think the SNA AC is safe, too).

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
In the end, if AA intends to operate a cornerstone hub at LAX, the SNA service becomes increasingly marginalized.

Not at all. SNA and LAX are not the same market. They may share some overlaps in demand, but they are two distinct customer sets, and SNA alone attracts a very large amount of high-yielding business traffic from the many wealthy residents and large corporations with a presence in OC.

The proximity of SNA to LAX is, in this case, irrelevant. If it were, AA wouldn't have maintained their 9-10 daily DFW-SNA flights alongside their 18-20 daily DFW-LAX flights for this long. Obviously there's a market at SNA.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
AA has historically had a strong customer base at SNA thanks to the AirCal acquisition 25 years ago, but the gradual dismantling of that operation makes loyalty to the AA brand & product less valuable.

AA's historically strong presence at SNA has essentially nothing to do with AirCal 25 years ago. AA's franchise at SNA consisted for most of the 1990s of flights to DFW and ORD. It then also included flights to SFO and SJC for a relatively short period of less than 10 years in the late 1990s and early 2000s, and to RNO and LAS for an even shorter period.

The core of AA's presence at SNA has - for decades - been DFW and ORD, and that is the way it will remain. The "dismantling" of AA's network from SNA to the ex-Reno Air destinations in the last 10-12 years didn't seem to harm the "value" of the AA brand at SNA based on the still-very-strong schedule AA has to DFW and ORD. It just meant that AA was no longer a viable competitor in the intra-west O&D market.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
If AA can't get you to the Bay Area, Phoenix, or Vegas then they're a lot less useful to many passengers.

  

Because every passenger - especially every high-yielding business passenger - flying in and out of SNA are going to "the Bay Area, Phoenix or Vegas?" Please.

AA has long had a very strong franchise in SNA - with or without nonstops to SFO, SJC, RNO or LAS - based on the very large volume of high-yielding local customers moving to the eastern half of the U.S., to say nothing of international connections, for which DFW and ORD are perfectly-located hubs.

There's more to the SNA air market than "the Bay Area, Phoenix [and] Vegas."


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25049 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6722 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6):
southwest seems to be doing at SNA what jetblue is doing at LGB. Gobble up any slots when possible.

Yes Southwest has done very well at SNA, and broader California imo.

SWA has been the #1 carrier in the state in enplanments and #1 in at all California airports it serves besides LAX and SFO where it still has good sized operations.

The SWA model suits California extremely well, and imo they successfully replaced the much loved local PSA and AirCal franchises in peoples hearts and minds.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 7):
Do you think the county will loan them more? Or will they have to wait for other airlines to give up slots before expanding?

The County holds a few slots back unallocated. The last two years they tended to loan them out during the back half of the year around June. So yes its quite possible SWA will be able to use a few more for the summer.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
I'm surprise we haven't heard any whining about how it's so unfair that Southwest has been able to increase its slot portfolio at SNA.

Ha ha. Yes I suppose some don't like it, however all SWA is doing is standing in line with its hands open as others carriers vacate slots or pass on the opportunity to grow themselves.

All 100% legit. No reason why other airlines cant up their game at SNA if they so desire.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
if AA intends to operate a cornerstone hub at LAX, the SNA service becomes increasingly marginalized.

  

AA has marginalized all its LA basin service to focus on LAX. Gone competely is BUR. ONT is down to mere 3 flights for the winter. Looking back even further gone is LGB also.

SNA mere 3 years ago from AA was sitting at 29 departures at SNA.

From Summer 2009 schedule:
AUS - 1x 738
ORD - 4x 757
DFW - 10x 738
SFO - 5x ERD
SJC - 6x ERD, 2x M80
STL - 1x M80

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
Because every passenger - especially every high-yielding business passenger - flying in and out of SNA are going to "the Bay Area, Phoenix or Vegas?" Please.

I think his point stands.

The largest O&D markets from SNA are to the Bay Area, Vegas and Phoenix. So a local is more apt to look to get to SFO from SNA than DFW, and a carrier like Southwest will answer the call. Sure AA has a place for those looking to go East, however that is a smaller overall market at the end of the day. Simply put AA is not an option for a huge portion of OC flyers now as its SNA network has continued to shrink.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFedExFlyerPHL From United States of America, joined May 2008, 193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

I'm still waiting on US to add a PHL n/s. I gotta think between the O/D and connections to the NE, Florida and Europe, it should work.

Jeff



ABE ATL AUA AUS BHM BOS BUR BWI CLT DFW EWR HOU IAD JAN JAX LAX LGB MEM MCI MCO MDW MGW MSP MSY ORD PHL PIT SJU SNA STL
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6053 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
I think they are - at least about AA dramatically reducing their SNA schedule (although I personally think the SNA AC is safe, too).

Phew, thank God. I was really worried about that one. Now I'll be able to sleep tonight.

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
Not at all. SNA and LAX are not the same market. They may share some overlaps in demand, but they are two distinct customer sets, and SNA alone attracts a very large amount of high-yielding business traffic from the many wealthy residents and large corporations with a presence in OC.

The proximity of SNA to LAX is, in this case, irrelevant. If it were, AA wouldn't have maintained their 9-10 daily DFW-SNA flights alongside their 18-20 daily DFW-LAX flights for this long. Obviously there's a market at SNA.

So your logic here is that SNA must be a different market than LAX because AA has kept 9 flights per day to DFW? That's a logical fallacy known as "begging the question." You write decently well, so I think you know what that means.

In any case, if SNA has a "distinct customer set" and has "very large amount of high-yielding business traffic from the many wealthy residents and large corporations with a presence in the OC," why is DL giving back slots? (Care to quantify instead of generalizing?) And before you say DFW is a more convenient connecting point to Garden City, Kansas than Atlanta, tell me, which "high-yielding" points east are these people from Newport Beach really going to?

I guess the main point you're trying to make (as you do in every post) is that people just like flying AA, unconditionally.


User currently offlinewwtraveler99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5935 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
o Southwest keeps growing – allocated its 54th slot – up 5 from 2012 allocation.

This was not as large of an increase as it may appear (49 to 54). WN has been operating 47-49 flights for most of 2012. In June when they added the FL flying it increase their total to 53. So in all reality the increase was only one flight. Now maybe this it what the OP was alluding to with the "The County has let them "loan" vacant slot positions". Regaurdless it a pretty impressive number oh flights. Of the 118.6 mainline (includes cargo) flights allocated WN will have 54 or 45% of the daily departures.



WW


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6741 posts, RR: 32
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5504 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
Because every passenger - especially every high-yielding business passenger - flying in and out of SNA are going to "the Bay Area, Phoenix or Vegas?" Please.

Nice job of failing to understand the difference between "many" (my word) and "every" (your word). The fact remains that it becomes more difficult to retain loyalty among OC business travelers when AA simply doesn't offer service -- connecting or non-stop -- to several of the top destinations from SNA.

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
AA's franchise at SNA consisted for most of the 1990s of flights to DFW and ORD. It then also included flights to SFO and SJC for a relatively short period of less than 10 years in the late 1990s and early 2000s, and to RNO and LAS for an even shorter period.

Ahhh I had forgotten that AA had scaled back at SNA once before.

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
The proximity of SNA to LAX is, in this case, irrelevant. If it were, AA wouldn't have maintained their 9-10 daily DFW-SNA flights alongside their 18-20 daily DFW-LAX flights for this long. Obviously there's a market at SNA.

Proximity to LAX is quite relevant; reducing frequency would indeed marginalize the SNA operation. But AA does have a bit of history in doing just that in stations near its hubs & focus cities.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9310 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5429 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 3):

I guess that means SNA-LAS (which some say was used solely for slot-squatting) is a goner. Where are the other DL mainline reductions coming from - ATL, MSP, SLC, or a mix?
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6):

Will be interesting to see where Delta makes the cuts. They could upsize pretty easily on a few flights and not really change the number of seats if they wanted to. Delta has a pretty sizeable operation to consider in LGB also from SLC so that could just be too many seats in too close an area and they want to try to increase yields?

ATL-SNA is going from 5x 73W to 3x 75X. Also the 1 slots from CVG/DTW/JFK/LAS-SNA.



yep.
User currently offlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5350 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
ATL-SNA is going from 5x 73W to 3x 75X. Also the 1 slots from CVG/DTW/JFK/LAS-SNA.

Which was essentially the schedule to ATL prior to the 73Ws coming online a few years ago, correct?


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5305 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 3):
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta is permanently returning 3 slots.

I guess that means SNA-LAS (which some say was used solely for slot-squatting) is a goner.

DL flew SNA-LAS?? I absolutely HATE when people say the "Delta Dartboard" but I think it might actually apply in this case. Weird... that seems like it would be a strong WN route



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25049 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5287 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
DL flew SNA-LAS??

ha ha, yes

Delta Commence SNA-LAS Service (by LAXintl Nov 22 2010 in Civil Aviation)

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7247 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5145 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I remember using AA on AUS-SNA back in the day. That didn't last very long. WN owns SNA.   

User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4948 times:

The SkyWest CRJ900's in SNA for DL are operated as commerical, not commuter allocations. Everything 70 seats or less fall into the commuter category and passengers allotments.

User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4931 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 15):
Nice job of failing to understand the difference between "many" (my word) and "every" (your word). The fact remains that it becomes more difficult to retain loyalty among OC business travelers when AA simply doesn't offer service -- connecting or non-stop -- to several of the top destinations from SNA.

Even if they did, the costs of the tickets and parking are outrageous. I know several people that used to live in Costa Mesa and would routinely drive to LAX because the fares and parking were a lot less.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9310 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4863 times:

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 17):

No its a cut. It was 5x 752 then it went 5x 73W. I guess they are just going to flow more over SLC/MSP (both of which could be upgraded more if needed)

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):

Yes. It was for slot sitting.....Its likely the shortest route Delta could do(and maybe make a little money on)



yep.
User currently offlineasteriskceo From United States of America, joined May 2004, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4446 times:

WN is adding HOU and I expect FL to add ATL as their MEX & SJD "feeders" from SFO & LAS are essentially just repositioning flights considering the loads.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25049 posts, RR: 46
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4129 times:

Small update.

County Board approved the 2013 slot grants.

The only two airlines on the waiting list - Horizon and Sun Country both declined award.

County will retain 3 slots for either a new potential entrant, or for reassignment to current operator (read Southwest) by midyear (June 2013).



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3045 posts, RR: 7
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
The only two airlines on the waiting list - Horizon and Sun Country both declined award.

Why doesn't AS start QX service SJC-SNA? Seems like that's a well trafficked route that needs some competition. WN has a monopoly. Seems like it would fit well with AS's strategy at SJC.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25049 posts, RR: 46
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

I'm not sure how 3 x Q400 flights would do against 9 SWA 737s.

AS dropped all its LA basin - Bay Area flights over the years sans SJC-LAX which hangs on to bridge Q400s to and from LAX.

I don't think there is much appetite for such a venture. Anyhow - AS is shrinking at SNA also.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4383 posts, RR: 6
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3739 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
o Alaska is temporarily (up to 3 years) returning 4 slots (2 were not used anyhow)
o Delta is permanently returning 3 slots.
o In addition Delta affiliate Compass did not utilize its 3 allocated 2012 slots, so those were vacated. Skywest will instead utilize 3 slots on behalf of Delta but under commuter exemptions.
o Frontier is permanently returning 1 slot by April 2013. (but in reality published schedule change shows it ends January 7th)
o Interjet was allocated 4 slots as a new entrant. Will temporarily return 2 to the pool until it builds is schedule
o Westjet makes permanent its previous temporary return of a single slot. Retains 2 slots.
o Southwest keeps growing – allocated its 54th slot – up 5 from 2012 allocation.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Regarding SWA, they actually use more slots then they hold. The County has let them "loan" vacant slot positions. They picked up one that way during June also.
At the end of the day it seems SWA is committed to taking any available slot and making use of it. Good for them.

It is interesting how basically every airline is not interested in growth and would rather reduce flights besides WN, who keeps adding at any chance.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):

SNA mere 3 years ago from AA was sitting at 29 departures at SNA.

From Summer 2009 schedule:
AUS - 1x 738
ORD - 4x 757
DFW - 10x 738
SFO - 5x ERD
SJC - 6x ERD, 2x M80
STL - 1x M80

Wow - that is quite the change from now.

Quoting FedExFlyerPHL (Reply 12):
I'm still waiting on US to add a PHL n/s. I gotta think between the O/D and connections to the NE, Florida and Europe, it should work.

Not sure if US has anything besides a 752 that could make that off of SNA's runway without weight restrictions at times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
The only two airlines on the waiting list - Horizon and Sun Country both declined award.

Slightly interesting SY applied - I assume it was from MSP but it could of been to one of SY's warm Mexico destinations.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 7):
DEN: 4x WN
HOU: 1x WN
LAS: 1x FL, 8x WN
MDW: 1x WN
MEX: 1x FL
OAK: 8x WN
PHX: 7x WN
SFO: 1x FL, 6x WN
SJC: 8x WN
SJD: 1x FL
SMF: 7x WN

For anyone interested, SNA started as a WN station in May of 1994 with 7x OAK and 8x SJC. There was also published connecting service available to just five other cities - BOI, PDX, RNO, SEA, and GEG.

By summer of 2000 they were actually down a flight from inaugural:

7x SJC
7x OAK

Fall of 2002 shows a significant increase over 2000 however:

7x SJC
8x OAK
5x PHX
4x SMF
2x LAS

For a total of 26 daily.

2003:

8x OAK
5x PHX
5x SMF
5x SJC
2x LAS

For a total of 25 daily.

I also have a timetable from around 2005 that shows:

8x OAK
7x PHX
7x SMF
6x SJC
4x LAS

For a total of 32 daily.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25071 posts, RR: 85
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3692 times:
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Quoting iowaman (Reply 28):
It is interesting how basically every airline is not interested in growth and would rather reduce flights besides WN, who keeps adding at any chance.

Remove Southwest from the equation, and something seems to have changed.

Ten years ago, getting slots at SNA was like finding hen's teeth - very difficult to do. Now - not so much.

Remove Frontier from the equation (I understand why that's happening) and I am still surprised that not only are airlines giving back slots, but those on the waiting list - and it's a very short list - are declining offered slots

I wonder what's up, what's changed?

mariner.



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4055 posts, RR: 8
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3648 times:

Quoting iowaman (Reply 28):
Not sure if US has anything besides a 752 that could make that off of SNA's runway without weight restrictions at times.

I think a 319 would do just fine.

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
I wonder what's up, what's changed?

Maybe just the desire of the others to consolidate at LAX as much as possible. The slew of recent mergers might also have something to do with it?


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3045 posts, RR: 7
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3623 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 30):
Quoting iowaman (Reply 28):
Not sure if US has anything besides a 752 that could make that off of SNA's runway without weight restrictions at times.

I think a 319 would do just fine.

US did do SNA-PHL for a short time several years ago with an A319.


User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3566 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 13):
And before you say DFW is a more convenient connecting point to Garden City, Kansas than Atlanta, tell me, which "high-yielding" points east are these people from Newport Beach really going to?

Irvine, Anaheim, Santa Ana, Riverside, Huntington Beach, Lake Arrowhead, Disneyland, etc...  
Basically anywhere between Huntington Beach to the north, Camp Pendleton to the south, Newport Beach to the west, and San Bernardino to the east. Yes PSP and ONT are just as good for the more inland destinations, but SNA has much better scheduling and much more flights to choose from. Southern California is more than just LA and San Diego.



Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3517 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Fedex – 0.7
Frontier – 3.3
Interjet – 2
Southwest – 54
United – 20
UPS – 0.6

Pardon my ignorance, but how can an airline have 6/10 of a slot? As I understand it, a slot is one takeoff/landing pair per day, correct? Does this mean that UPS, for example, will have less than daily service from SNA?


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7110 posts, RR: 13
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3493 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
o Frontier is permanently returning 1 slot by April 2013. (but in reality published schedule change shows it ends January 7th)

Frontier fought very hard for that 4th slot. Typical...

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
Ten years ago, getting slots at SNA was like finding hen's teeth - very difficult to do. Now - not so much.

WN will take all they can get and the ways things are going will own the whole airport.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25071 posts, RR: 85
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3471 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 34):
rontier fought very hard for that 4th slot. Typical...

I don't recall the "battle" being particularly hard but I won't argue the toss.

The past is irrelevant. That was then and this is now - and a new CEO who is more concerned with profit than size.

Quoting enilria (Reply 34):
WN will take all they can get and the ways things are going will own the whole airport.

If Southwest can make money there, good luck to 'em. But it doesn't answer my question:

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
I wonder what's up, what's changed?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4383 posts, RR: 6
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3431 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 33):
Pardon my ignorance, but how can an airline have 6/10 of a slot? As I understand it, a slot is one takeoff/landing pair per day, correct? Does this mean that UPS, for example, will have less than daily service from SNA?

I believe that is correct.

Quoting mariner (Reply 35):
Quoting mariner (Reply 29):I wonder what's up, what's changed?
mariner

Now that WN is probably in more control of fares than anyone else, maybe yields aren't as good as they use to be? There has not only been a steady increase in flights over the years, but also a steady increasing in the amount of connections WN can offer to new WN cities as well as in general to existing cities, particularly with additions such as MDW and the soon to be HOU flight.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25071 posts, RR: 85
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3432 times:
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Quoting iowaman (Reply 36):
Now that WN is probably in more control of fares than anyone else, maybe yields aren't as good as they use to be?

That could be.

Here's what it was, in 1989:

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-03-05/business/fi-151_1_john-wayne

"Battle for John Wayne's Golden Slots : With Airport Set to Ease Access, Carriers Jockey to Get Share of Lucrative Rights

For the past decade, America's major airlines have coveted slots at Orange County's John Wayne Airport, one of the most lucrative regional air transport centers in the nation."


Times do seem to have changed, or perhaps the old adage is true - less can be a lot more.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 140 posts, RR: 12
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3402 times:

I found SNA to be expensive the last time I was there. The rental car agent said their charges were higher than other airports. Have the costs increased similar to SJC and SMF with the recent terminal expansion and made it cost prohibitive for the airlines?

User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3390 times:

US should try CLT-SNA on a A319

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4055 posts, RR: 8
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3283 times:

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 33):
Pardon my ignorance, but how can an airline have 6/10 of a slot? As I understand it, a slot is one takeoff/landing pair per day, correct? Does this mean that UPS, for example, will have less than daily service from SNA?

Yes. The cargo carriers operate modified schedules on the weekends. Some days that means an inbound but no outbound, or vice versa.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25049 posts, RR: 46
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

Quoting iowaman (Reply 28):
It is interesting how basically every airline is not interested in growth and would rather reduce flights besides WN, who keeps adding at any chance.
Quoting iowaman (Reply 28):
Slightly interesting SY applied - I assume it was from MSP but it could of been to one of SY's warm Mexico destinations.

I believe SY is looking for a local anchor station outside of LAX. They recently applied for the LGB slot lottery but came up empty.
Being heavily leisure I can see them do like WestJet and sell SNA as the gateway to Disneyland.
I dont believe they took the slots this year as they only had about 30-days to decide and would have needed to launch with 3 flights in January. With a small fleet and short time I bet their flying was already committed this winter.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 33):
Pardon my ignorance, but how can an airline have 6/10 of a slot? As I understand it, a slot is one takeoff/landing pair per day, correct? Does this mean that UPS, for example, will have less than daily service from SNA?

Both UPS and Fedex are indeed less then daily. I believe UPS is 4x weekly and FX 5x.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 38):
Have the costs increased similar to SJC and SMF with the recent terminal expansion and made it cost prohibitive for the airlines?

SNA is quite competitive.

Cost per enplanement was just under $10 in 2011. In comparison LAX was $12'ish.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7110 posts, RR: 13
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2930 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 35):
The past is irrelevant. That was then and this is now - and a new CEO who is more concerned with profit than size.

Just to be clear, the F9 DEN schedule (departures) is down 22% for this April over last April. If they maintain profitability by shrinking 22% every year, they will be gone really soon. BTW, that's 39% down from Summer 2011 in DEN. That's pretty grim in my book.

Quoting mariner (Reply 35):
If Southwest can make money there, good luck to 'em. But it doesn't answer my question:

To some extent it may not be about making money in the short term. US added a ton of flights at LGA to block up the airport when RJ slots were abolished. It allowed them to end up with 50% of all LGA slots at one point...and then sell them later. WN may be doing the same thing in SNA. Hoarding up slots to gain control and then jack up prices once competition is effectively eliminated. DAL ain't very cheap these days intra-Texas.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25071 posts, RR: 85
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2879 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
Just to be clear, the F9 DEN schedule (departures) is down 22% for this April over last April. If they maintain profitability by shrinking 22% every year, they will be gone really soon. BTW, that's 39% down from Summer 2011 in DEN. That's pretty grim in my book.

It may be grim to you but - apparently and as in the last Frontier thread - Frontier is headed for it's first full year profit in ten years.

It hasn't happened yet and any full year profit would have to cover the 1Q loss, so he may not get there, but since we're less than ten days out from the Q3 numbers I assume the CEO has some idea of what he's talking about.

If he's telling fibs, he's for the high jump with the SEC.

Trying to drag the thread back on-topic, I'm scratching my head at the insistence that Frontier should continue to do all the things it was doing when it was losing money.

Pre-Southwest, Frontier's 4 x DEN-SNA may have been a good idea. Post-Southwest, I imagine that has changed.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2870 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
I wonder what's up, what's changed?

The real estate bubble popped. No longer is it possible to hit the 'home ATM' with an easy loan to finance an extravagant lifestyle. Orange county also lost a number of jobs when the sub-prime mortgage lenders imploded. OC lost some high spending jobs from those mortgage companies. Money was made and spent quickly. It was joked that the Newport beach Lamborghini dealership put their flags at half mast when New Century went bankrupt, as well as such non-loved companies as 'quick loan funding,'

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/20...re-big-chill-in-orange-county.html

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 30):
Maybe just the desire of the others to consolidate at LAX as much as possible.

Here is a list of the top 10 subprime lenders. A huge number are in SNA's catchment area. There used to be a concentration in Orange county:
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/mortgage-35256-lenders-home.html

e.g., Ameriquest, Argent, and New Century

Now flights are sustained by other business.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7110 posts, RR: 13
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 2652 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 43):
Trying to drag the thread back on-topic, I'm scratching my head at the insistence that Frontier should continue to do all the things it was doing when it was losing money.

Like having a hub in Denver?

Keep in mind that we have been in a "bubble" where the E190s and E145s have been removed from the F9 P/L which is very favorable, but F9 still massively benefits from their connections (E190) to their mainline aircraft. That's, of course, why airlines have regional feed networks in the first place. The "real" P/L won't be known until the E-jets are all gone and all that feed is lost. I think we are learning that the DEN "hub" is not viable without that feed which is why they are ripping it up. How much remains we'll figure out next year. I'd also add that if F9 can't be sold during this "bubble", it will get much harder to sell next year when the feed has disappeared.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25071 posts, RR: 85
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 2557 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 45):
Like having a hub in Denver?
Quoting enilria (Reply 45):
I think we are learning that the DEN "hub" is not viable without that feed which is why they are ripping it up.

I don't see the point in any debate because (a) this isn't a thread about Frontier and (b) and you will always dump on anything Frontier does - or anything I say about it.

But I don't see that Frontier is "ripping the DEN hub up" - changing it, certainly.

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...o-siegel-frontier-airlines-on.html

"CEO Siegel: Frontier Airlines on course to profitability; could bring jobs back to Denver

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 2517 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
BTW, that's 39% down from Summer 2011 in DEN. That's pretty grim in my book.

We should keep in mind that near-by COS has grown significantly in the same timeline which is some of that 39%.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinetravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 2460 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):

I wonder what's up, what's changed?

There are just far fewer airlines today in existence, and "battling" for slots doesn't make sense any more. No more CO, NW, TW, etc etc etc.

In terms of "new" airlines: VX tried to make SNA work, but going up against UA to SFO? Wasn't going to cut it. SNA is too close to LGB, so B6 isn't a likely entrant.

The airlines have actually managed to reign in capacity growth and are concentrating on yields and flights to hubs.

SNA is well-connected to most hubs, so there is little need to up-gauge capacity or frequency.

The growth at SNA these days will come from Mexico markets, and the jury is out on how that's going to work.


User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 925 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 47):
We should keep in mind that near-by COS has grown significantly in the same timeline which is some of that 39%.

Significantly? A couple of flights that run a few times a week is significant?



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 11 hours ago) and read 2397 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 49):
A couple of flights that run a few times a week is significant?

You have to compare apples with apples. if you look beyond the seasonal routes and across the across the timeline specified. COS to BLI, LAX, MCO, PHX and SAN is significant. If these don't come back next year and I have no reason the they won't then the crow is on me. I;m thinking there were several daily frequencies between COS and SAN and COS and PHX not just a few times a week.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25049 posts, RR: 46
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

Quoting travelin man (Reply 48):
There are just far fewer airlines today in existence, and "battling" for slots doesn't make sense any more. No more CO, NW, TW, etc etc etc.
Quoting travelin man (Reply 48):
The airlines have actually managed to reign in capacity growth and are concentrating on yields and flights to hubs.

Indeed.

The industry landscape has changed, namely the number of players involved and their network focus.

In the past everyone wanted a toe in an airport like SNA, but today there are simply less players fighting for those slots, and many of the ones in the market have other interest in how to deploy their capacity.

All this seemingly to the good fortune of Southwest which seems quite happy to backfill at the airport.

Quoting travelin man (Reply 48):
The growth at SNA these days will come from Mexico markets, and the jury is out on how that's going to work.

And speaking of that - Interjet apparently was off to a good start in October. GDL flights were 80-90% range while MEX was lower in the 70s. Apprently their fares not that low either.

Its also interesting - they are marketing the service as "Los Angeles*" in typical LCC fashion.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAsteriskceo From United States of America, joined May 2004, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 51):
Its also interesting - they are marketing the service as "Los Angeles*" in typical LCC fashion.


Apparently they are marketing it as bay service, as well.  


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1941 times:

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 52):
Apparently they are marketing it as bay service, as well.

It's that damned San Andreas fault... must have shifted again and nobody noticed! LOL!

bb


User currently offlineMainliner From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 31):
US did do SNA-PHL for a short time several years ago with an A319.

Also with a 757.



Every flight counts.
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