gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1841 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13439 times:
The dirty war of the Argentinian authorities against LAN and the fairness of a free market , has another weapon in the battlefield now.
The budget for the year 2013 will include a special treat for AR, and all the affiliate companies like Austral or JetPack. All the taxes for these companies will be condoned. This will add another level of imbalance to the already unfair environment for the free competition, since LAN Argentina must pay all the taxes.
We have now :
* 2 Million dollars daily subsidizing the airline's loses
* Denial of entry to new planes in the fleet of LAN
* Denial of more LAN frequencies on important routes like MIA
* Denial of use of AEP for LAN flights to destinations in Chile and Brazil
* Full taxes for LAN, no taxes for AR...
I wonder how the AR planes are still allowed to fly into SCEL....it is time to draw some red lines.
LAN Argentina is a private airline; not a state owned company!
Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter): I wonder how the AR planes are still allowed to fly into SCEL....it is time to draw some red lines.
Why? LAN dominates the SCL-AEP and SCL-EZE routes. AR/AU simply cannot compete with LAN in the free market; compare their operations to LAN's on the SCL-BUE and LIM-EZE routes. It's rumoured that AR will be returning an undisclosed number of A343s back to their lessor(s) next year. Guess which airline's A343s they want to buy?
vlad1971 From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 85 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13326 times:
Sorry to tell you that guys, but I am 100% in support of Argentinean government in trying to save AR !! It was and will be the only national carrier in Argentina ..... Would you be happy to see if Aerolineas Argentinas were trying to "Take Over " Chilean domestic and regional markets ?? I guess - NO !! Same here . Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground . Argentina was always associated with Aerolineas Argentinas or Austral and would never be associated with LAN .
Look at Lufthansa Italy brand- did not live for a long time, though LH is not to compare with AZ in terms of service .
I guess most of the passengers still prefer to fly their "National Carrier" rather then an intruder ...
I see your point, but my money goes to LAN (or 4M, or LP) only when I purchase a ticket from them. On the other hand, since AR/AU are artificially breathing with money they get from the Government, my money goes to them every day. IMO, with no good reason, or I'd rather say for the sake of populism (and, I think, for other reasons that are plainly illegitimate).
iFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 408 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12748 times:
If they wanted LAN out so bad why don't they just pass a law that All foreign owned airlines aren't allowed to operate domestic routes? But until that it is rather low of the Argentinian government to say that AR and company don't have to pay taxes while LAN still does.
gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1841 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12490 times:
Quoting LVICS (Reply 4): I see your point, but my money goes to LAN (or 4M, or LP) only when I purchase a ticket from them. On the other hand, since AR/AU are artificially breathing with money they get from the Government, my money goes to them every day. IMO, with no good reason, or I'd rather say for the sake of populism (and, I think, for other reasons that are plainly illegitimate).
I'm glad to see that there are still people with the capability of seeing the deep implications of this "flag carrier" issue, and I find sad that, in contrast with you, a big number of the people of Argentina is not seeing this.
Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 5): If they wanted LAN out so bad why don't they just pass a law that All foreign owned airlines aren't allowed to operate domestic routes?
I'm afraid that they are not so far from this. I bet you that until now the K administration find that measure too extreme only because of the poor public image of AR even inside Argentina, and probably all the flying public will protest against a law that eliminates their only option for better fares and service. But if the situation of AR doesn't improves ( the most probable future IMHO ), the next moves to ( desperately ) implement will be of that nature, I'm completely sure.
That's not going to happen and the current President of Argentina is not elected for life. Currently, Argentina is in a recession while the Chilean, Colombian and Peruvian economies continue to show signs of strong economic growth. LATAM has a strong presence in that country and has created many jobs. For example, the number of Chileans traveling to Argentina has increased significantly as many pax take short trips to B.A. due to the devaluation of the Argentine Peso. LAN Argentina will reduce frequency on the SCL-EZE route and LAN Airlines will increase frequency on the route so that LAN Argentina can increase frequencies on certain domestic routes. It's interesting to note that while Argentina has a larger population than Chile, the Chilean domestic market is larger and continues to grow rapidly, (domestic traffic within Chile increased by 24% in August compared to August, 2011). Oh and LAN continues to operate non-stop flights between RGL and MPN!
757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 667 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12350 times:
I could understand up to a point the "romantic" idea of saving the flag carrier and saving it from the "savage competition" from the larger carriers out there. But this is way beyond that. It's a very dirty war, and the lack of fair competition in the long run end in lousy service and internal chaos. Unions for example know that they can get away with murder as far as interrupting services. There is no motivation to excellence as they know they will always be protected whether they do a great or an awful job. I'm not saying that's the case. In fact I flew AR recently after a long time and my impression was better than what I expected. I hope that could be consistent.
In the long run the customers suffer the consequences. Not to mention the Argentine taxpayer...
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1841 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11487 times:
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7): That's not going to happen and the current President of Argentina is not elected for life.
I really, really hope you are right on both. But she is doing many things to modify the Constitution, with the ultimate goal of being re-elected one more time....Many years ago some Mr. Chavez did the same and....well, you know....
And regarding what can happen or not in Argentina, well, the 2001 breakdown, the REPSOL case and the prohibition ( to the general public but not for the friends and family of "K people" ) regarding the foreign money exchange, are just a sample of the certainty you can have in the country. Sorry, but ANYTHING can happen in Argentina.
Quoting 757gb (Reply 9): It's a very dirty war, and the lack of fair competition in the long run end in lousy service and internal chaos.
And the public who needs to fly is, by far, the biggest looser in this cases.
g500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 835 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11325 times:
Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter): ( And still there are some people who ask why there's a thread regarding this clowns every week...)
is not just here. The financial times had an article yesterday, "Cristina Fernandez draws another yellow card from the IMF". It wasn't about the airlines but same type of stuff...
Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter): The dirty war of the Argentinian authorities against LAN and the fairness of a free market
For whatever reason you seem to think the Argentinian government has a personal thing against LAN.... they're pulling this stuff (protectionisim) in all industries to keep their economy from becoming unglue, they're even claiming inflation is only 10% when in reality is 20%.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7825 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11163 times:
For all the uses the Government of Argentina has for a billion dollars subsidizing an airline is not the best use. Close the airline down and pension off the employees, its cheaper in the long run. AR is an anachronism in a modern time. IF It was 1930 it would be a great instrument if Argentina had an empire and needed air links to sustain it. Times have moved on, its time AR does too.
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 3155 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10677 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 12): I think every country should have their own subsidized national airline, free market today sucks and brings both quality and safety standards down.
I presume you are being sarcastic. I live in England and am one of those deprived citizens of a country with no subsidised flag carrier. We have to put up with British Airways which replaced BEA and BOAC of which we were all so, so proud. As well as that, we all miss having to finance the losses of our flag carriers so, so much.
2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2322 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10569 times:
Is AR an airline or a essential air-transportation provider or a reason to keep hundreds of Argentinean on a payroll?
If AR was an airline and managed as such, with some lean structure and optimal fleet, it may survive and do accomplish something among Latin America airlines..
The way I see it AR is on its way to become to Argentina what Conviasa is to Venezuela.
OB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3148 posts, RR: 7 Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10509 times:
Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3): Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground .
Tell that to the people of Peru and Ecuador. It's not LAN's fault that Aerolineas Argentinas is so terribly managed, nor should LAN be punished for it.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 12): Good, I greatly respect Argentinean government. I think every country should have their own subsidized national airline, free market today sucks and brings both quality and safety standards down.
Because AR is a shining beacon of world-class service and reliability...
SamuP From Colombia, joined Jul 2010, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10478 times:
Letting AR die and pensioning off the employees will open the market for private capital to start an Argentinian based airline to compete with LAN Argentina. There will be no tax revenues wasted on maintaining the AR dinosaur alive, many if not all of AR's employees could find employment with LAN Argentina's expansion in the domestic and Intl markets, or with the new private ventures that may arise. Furthermore, the Argentinian public (and for that matter the flying public in general) would benefit from having fair competition in the market, offering competitive pricing and products.
Flag carriers are a thing of the past ... some brands have survived, but the rule is they survived thanks to the government privatizing them ... there are examples everywhere. I would love to see the AR brand survive and thrive .. but I am certain this will not be the case if things continue this way. Argentina is a wonderful country and it deserves a world class (privately owned) airline!
LAN will also increase capacity on certain regional routes, i.e. SCL-MDZ 3x daily A-320, SCL-COR 2x daily A-320, LIM-COR daily A-319, and will resume seasonal flights on the SCL-IQQ-SLA route 2x weekly A-320.
EZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4943 posts, RR: 26 Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9779 times:
Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3): Sorry to tell you that guys, but I am 100% in support of Argentinean government in trying to save AR !! It was and will be the only national carrier in Argentina ..... Would you be happy to see if Aerolineas Argentinas were trying to "Take Over " Chilean domestic and regional markets ?? I guess - NO !! Same here . Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground . Argentina was always associated with Aerolineas Argentinas or Austral and would never be associated with LAN .
Well ... I'm not. One thing is trying to save AR, another thing is increasing it's deficit every month at our expense. I would prefer my tax money to go where things are really a necessity and not in air travel, a good that is used by a very small percentage of the population. And if I really have to do this, at least I would expect the company to run like a proiper company, and not a freaking monopoly. The govt' is so freakin' scared of Lan that they'll do anything ...
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8528 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9375 times:
Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 19): The govt' is so freakin' scared of Lan that they'll do anything ...
Why are they scared of LAN? Is it because they can only control domestic airfares within Argentina and not international airfares and foreign customers that want to travel within Argentina usually pay higher airfares and tend to fly on LAN? Is AR starting to feel the pressure with LAN and TAM combining and the number of regional flights that LATAM operates into Argentina; especially AEP/EZE via their hubs at GIG, GRU, LIM, and SCL?
Giancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1291 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9158 times:
Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3): Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground .
I've never read such rubbish in my entire life. Nobody wants a service that is better in every aspect if its foreign? LOL what planet are you living on, Probably the same one as the Argentinian government. They are morons on every level.. Embarassing Argentina every day in every way.
The only people that lose out are Argentinians watching their taxes go down a black hole of fail.
LAN Argentina has tried multiple times to start EZE-GIG service, but was barred by the Argentinian ANAC even though there were and there still are available frequencies for Argentinian airlines.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7): LAN Argentina will reduce frequency on the SCL-EZE route and LAN Airlines will increase frequency on the route
How many frequencies are there for Chilean airlines to fly to Argentina? How many are still available? I ask, because the Brazil-Argentina bilateral agreement has been maxed out for years on the Brazilian side, but Argentina refuses an amendment.
25 SCL767: Chile has "Open Skies" with Argentina. Currently Chilean carriers operate 110 weekly frequencies between Chile and Argentina. LAN Airlines operates S
26 ghost77: Unfair??? Well, don´t you want to understand or don´t you have a clue about politics? And that the current leftist government won´t change and tha
27 SCL767: Actually LAN is increasing frequencies into Bolivia next month by adding a third daily flight. LAN also holds the route authority to increase frequen
28 C010T3: Is it a full open skies agreement or only local? If it's full, why doesn't LAN Chile fly SCL-EZE-XXX since LAN Argentina can't?
29 iFlyLOTs: I think you missed his point. He's saying that all those countries have their government control their airlines, whether or not they're profitable is
30 SCL767: It's only between points in Chile and points in Argentina. Remember when PAL launched SCL-COR and LAN responded by increasing frequency on the route
31 andrefranca: Because they are struggling to solve their own problems? Kischner now with 20% of popularity! ouch! what will be her next step? That's the why AR sho
32 Arcano: Actually, LAN stated last week that they have no news about Argentina denial, and called their relations with Argentine Government as "excellent". Wh
33 C010T3: That's the thing. People wouldn't have anything to complain about if the government declared AR's monopoly, but that did not happen. They are pretend
34 AR385: Right. And do tell, how many years (and bailouts) did that take? But you see, what many don´t understand here, is that Argentina is not a free marke
35 SCL767: Have you noticed that AR now has certain "agreements" with both Sol Líneas Aéreas and BQB Líneas aéreas. Sol will feed AR/AU operated flights via
36 757gb: Well that's thanks to the "brilliant" move by the UY government to shut Pluna down in one day... The void created was filled right away by AR. Now wh
37 gonzalo: I agree that we must stay within the limits of the laws, agreements and bilateral treaties signed in the past. But having one "partner" who is consta
38 SCL767: People will start to flee Argentina should it go the way of Venezuela. Even in stable democratic countries where there are currently high rates of un
39 pvjin: In those countries it is not only understandable but actually right thing to do... If you look how foreign corporations keep messing around in places
40 SCL767: LATAM will add three new daily flights into MVD soon. It will be interesting to see if any major carriers decrease flights into EZE in the near-term.
41 C010T3: What bailout? RG was never bailed out. RG was also never state-owned.
42 jfk777: The sad thing is that the Argentine Government is causing far wider damage to the entire airline economy there by supporting AR. IF LAN becomes the ma