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APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations  
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10175 times:

APA has agreed at their board meeting today to restart negotiations with AA. They expect to meet sometime this week. After backing off last week due to AA threatening to sue and due to another letter reinforcing their intention to further impose 1113 conditions, the APA did not want to further inflame the situation and decided to hold off releasing the strike ballot results due tomorrow or Thursday. They feel there is no need to further ratchet up the rhetoric. They will wait and see how serious AA is during the negotiations. As Joe Friday would have said, just the facts, ma'am.

106 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7381 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10130 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Thread starter):
As Joe Friday would have said, just the facts, ma'am.

Just to be snippy, did AA state that they were willing to restart negotiations?  
Just kidding, we are all pulling for a resolution that will allow normal service and get AA out of chpt.11, personally, the battle I was interested in waging was against any merger with US, but I digress.

Best wishes to all who sit at the table, I suggest a hit of some Peace Pipes with the real stuff before sitting down, calms the nerves  


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10093 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 1):
we are all pulling for a resolution

Thanks, so am I. I am once again, hoping common sense and maturity will prevail. But the last time I held my breathe, I just passed out!


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8309 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10057 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Thread starter):
They feel there is no need to further ratchet up the rhetoric.

A little late now, isn't it? They piss off an entire customer base and smear AA's reputation (along with their own) and now they're playing it conservatively?



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10025 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
A little late now, isn't it? They piss off an entire customer base and smear AA's reputation (along with their own) and now they're playing it conservatively?

Well, as I have stated on other threads, there is enough blame to go around on both sides. YES, BOTH SIDES. You do not appear to be open to the fact that there is more than meets the eye here.

AA came to APA over a week ago asking to restart negotiations. APA was planning to when AA ratcheted up the heat with the two letters. APA was not going to meet with AA continuing to apply pressure. APA has decided to not further ratchet up the rhetoric so hopefully things can cool down a bit and maybe, just maybe negotiations can be productive. I kind of think that is a good thing.

If you see my comments on other threads, I think you will find I am fairly realistic on what is happening.

If you think it is all one sided and that the APA and the pilots are terrible, well, I can't change your mind.

[Edited 2012-10-02 17:05:15]

User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9813 times:

I'm pulling for you all, aluminumtubing. Our TA vote concludes on Monday and many of us have looked to your side for guidance. Good luck to you!

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7690 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9556 times:

I hope it sticks this time. APA and AA management are like Israel and Palestine. Its too late to point fingers at just one side. They have both suffered for bad leadership and being out of touch with reality. Both groups seem to have tried to build a bridge to the 1990's.

I just hope the two can get through their hatred for each other for the sake of the flyer.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9315 times:

Out overnight and this morning, looks like the slowdown is having its intended (by some) effect: company appears to be beginning to back down. Now the critical question becomes if AMR will be willing to move sufficiently towards the APA's position to both (a) get at least 50%+1 to vote yes, and (b) not give away so much that the company's entire "standalone" business plan can't win out with the UCC over the merger/Parker alternative. (Of course, some believe (b) is already an inevitable given - we'll see.)

In other news, Tom Horton is "optimistic" and hopes to "put this chapter behind" everyone. For the sake of all involved, let's hope.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9300 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
not give away so much that the company's entire "standalone" business plan can't win out with the UCC over the merger/Parker alternative

While I don't share the view most of my fellow employees do regarding US being a savior, the business side of me has grave concerns regarding our "stand alone plan" as well. Personally I would much prefer to go it alone. I just don't believe long term it will be viable. Just more of the same. I would not invest any hard currency long term in a plan that has AA going it alone , that is for sure.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9260 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
company appears to be beginning to back down.

Laura Einspanier, American Airlines vice president of employee relations, informed pilots Tuesday night that the air carrier would hold off on implementing some unpopular changes to the pilots’ terms of employment.

In a letter to AA pilots, said the company was putting off the implementation of the changes “to help foster a constructive environment for us all.

Between that and the APA holding off releasing the strike vote today, it shows just maybe both sides aren't as untrainable as we all thought.

I know some might be curious which way I voted on the strike issue. I will only say that I waited until the last minute to vote, and that my vote was entirely unemotionally based. That alone could get me kicked out of the union and off this website. But, I digress.....  


User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 636 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9215 times:

Here's what I am hoping for:

- Higher total salaries for all pilots
- Higher productivity for all pilots
- Higher trip efficiency for all pilots
- Safety minded changes
- Rough parity with DL and UA in pilot pay and productivity

I think this is definitely achievable very quickly.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9216 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 10):
Here's what I am hoping for:

- Higher total salaries for all pilots
- Higher productivity for all pilots
- Higher trip efficiency for all pilots
- Safety minded changes
- Rough parity with DL and UA in pilot pay and productivity

I think this is definitely achievable very quickly.

AMEN!!!


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9160 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 11):
Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 10):
Here's what I am hoping for:
- Higher total salaries for all pilots
- Higher productivity for all pilots
- Higher trip efficiency for all pilots
- Safety minded changes
- Rough parity with DL and UA in pilot pay and productivity

I think this is definitely achievable very quickly.

AMEN!!!


I have been reading about the events involving AA over the past few weeks with a great deal of interest (plus my partner and I are scheduled to fly AA over the holiday and we chose AA specifically so we could try out the business class of AA's magnificent 777s). I've read all sorts of accusations and speculations and the like, what I haven't read is the specific contract terms that the parties can't agree to. As we all watch the negotiations begin again, perhaps now is a good time to learn what is at stake.

So here's my questions:

What were the major terms of the AA pilot contract before it was abrogated by the Court?
What does AA want in a new contract?
What do the Pilots want in a new contract?
What, if anything, has US promised the pilots?
What's the difference between DL, UA and AA pilot pay and productivity?


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9161 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 8):
the business side of me has grave concerns regarding our "stand alone plan" as well. Personally I would much prefer to go it alone. I just don't believe long term it will be viable.

Personally, I think AA's considerable financial (RASM growth, etc.) and operational improvements (on-time, etc.) pre-slowdown do, to some extent, vindicate that AMR would be capable of succeeding as a standalone entity without a merger, or at least without a USAirways merger. I know there are some - including some AA employees - who actually would prefer JetBlue if a merger were to take place.

Nonetheless, I do agree that the critical mass a USAirways merger would bring - on the East Coast in CLT, PHL and DCA - would be quite valuable to a new, combined entity. And speaking purely of employee relations, I also recognize that many AA employees would rather have a new CEO at the helm and are completely done with dealing with current AA management.

I guess the bottom line for me is that while I don't necessarily disagree with those that say an USAirways merger would strengthen AA and enhance the combined entity's value, I also don't necessarily disagree with those that say a standalone AA, with the right costs, union contracts and fleet, could also achieve substantially strength, growth and value creation.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 8):
Just more of the same.

From the management perspective, perhaps, but from the operational and product perspective, AA is in for some dramatic changes in the next couple of years - and I think many of them are in the right direction.

The AA "standalone" plan - both those portions of it that exist only in PowerPoint form as of today and the portions that are already tangibly rolling out - appears to envision turning over the vast majority of the fleet, significantly upgrading the ground and onboard hard product, enhancing the cabin experience, major investments in technology, etc., not to mention international network growth. At least from the perspective of customers, it at least appears that the next few years are not going to be "more of the same."

[Edited 2012-10-03 06:22:54]

User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9135 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
Personally, I think AA's considerable financial (RASM growth, etc.) and operational improvements (on-time, etc.) pre-slowdown do, to some extent, vindicate that AMR would be capable of succeeding as a standalone entity without a merger, or at least without a USAirways merger. I know there are some - including some AA employees - who actually would prefer JetBlue if a merger were to take place.

Short term, I can agree. Long term, as a serious investor, I just do not believe AA can go it alone. I personally think JetBlue would more than likely be a better option. Horton has my number, but I am sure it's not on his speed dial.


User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 636 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9112 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
Personally, I think AA's considerable financial (RASM growth, etc.) and operational improvements (on-time, etc.) pre-slowdown do, to some extent, vindicate that AMR would be capable of succeeding as a standalone entity without a merger, or at least without a USAirways merger. I know there are some - including some AA employees - who actually would prefer JetBlue if a merger were to take place.

Correct. AA has been excellent up to mid-September. And it has been beating the pants off UA in the customer service department. I do think the merger will happen either way. I just hope it'll be after AA exits bk because the alternative will not be pretty for AA's employees or customers. I suspect Dougie will lead the combined airline one way or another, so that outcome won't change either.

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
From the management perspective, perhaps, but from the operational and product perspective, AA is in for some dramatic changes in the next couple of years - and I think many of them are in the right direction.

So true. The new planes, premium cabins, and MCE alone will dramatically change the flying experience for customers. If AA can not just keep customer service levels, but raise them, they CAN be unstoppable (since their principal competitors have essentially given up on the concept of customer service excellence).


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9079 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 15):
I do think the merger will happen either way. I just hope it'll be after AA exits bk because the alternative will not be pretty for AA's employees or customers. I suspect Dougie will lead the combined airline one way or another, so that outcome won't change either.

I tend to agree.

My concern about Parker revolves around the potential degradation to the product/service, and AAdvantage, both of which are already either excellent and/or soon to improve. Nonetheless, I agree that a merger is inevitable - either in or outside bankruptcy - and I think Parker will probably end up running the company either way. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I am just, like many other people, cautious.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 15):
So true. The new planes, premium cabins, and MCE alone will dramatically change the flying experience for customers. If AA can not just keep customer service levels, but raise them, they CAN be unstoppable

Agreed. AA with the right fleet, costs and union contracts, plus what will be among the best hard/soft product combinations in the U.S. industry, will be quite a competitor if they can get their house in order - with or without a merger.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4031 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9039 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 9):
I know some might be curious which way I voted on the strike issue. I will only say that I waited until the last minute to vote, and that my vote was entirely unemotionally based.

This strike vote makes no sense. It is not even posturing, just a total waste of time.



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User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7690 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8990 times:

Will the pensions convert to 401k?


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13263 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8965 times:
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Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 12):
What were the major terms of the AA pilot contract before it was abrogated by the Court?
What does AA want in a new contract?
What do the Pilots want in a new contract?
What, if anything, has US promised the pilots?
What's the difference between DL, UA and AA pilot pay and productivity?

I second this question. What exactly are the differences between what the APA wants and what AMR offered?
What are the differences, besides the above, in scope clause?
What are the various unions willing to off to bring an 88 to 100 seater 'in house.' I believe the sticking point there might be ground handing at out stations.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3873 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8894 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
I also recognize that many AA employees would rather have a new CEO at the helm and are completely done with dealing with current AA management.
Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
I also don't necessarily disagree with those that say a standalone AA, with the right costs, union contracts and fleet, could also achieve substantially strength, growth and value creation.

I'd like to see what AA could do with new leadership as a stand alone entity. The message from Arpey and his cohorts is stale--AA needs some new blood to reimagine the company, or at least develop some sort of vision that they can sell the employees on. IMHO, a merger w US Airways is an Arpey or an Arpey-acolyte move--managing, not leading, and just trying to hold on to what they have.


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5273 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8849 times:

First, has anyone considered the possiblity that the UCC pushed AA to send the letter threatening litigation? If the operational issues were to continue, the creditors see their chances seeing AA make good on their debts fading away.

In a bankruptcy, both labor and management are pretty much working for the creditors, since they have so much say in the final reorganization.

Again, I would like to here from some AA pilots, like aluminumtubing, as to why Doug Parker represents the best option for AA's future.

In my opinion, Parker is just another manager who got his start in the Crandall culture at AA. That culture doesn't turn out the managerial and executive talent the way that companies like GE and McDonald's do.

What would be wrong with trying to hire someone away from Southwest to be AA/AMR's next CEO? Granted, there may be restrictive covenants in the employment agreements of senior executives at Southwest, but those can be overcome. About 20 years ago, Chrysler hired away a senior executive from GM to become CEO.

Considering that Southwest management has a long history or getting along with unionized employees, as well as a sterling reputation for customer service, hiring someone from Southwest who wants a challenge is a no brainer.

There are plenty of potential candidates for senior positions at AA, both inside and outside the industry, who never worked a day for Bob Crandall.

APA, APFA, and TWU need to pool their voting power together and find some creditors/future shareholders who also believe that AA needs to replace Horton & Co.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4076 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8745 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 21):
In my opinion, Parker is just another manager who got his start in the Crandall culture at AA. That culture doesn't turn out the managerial and executive talent the way that companies like GE and McDonald's do.

That is completely anecdotal. While oft brought up, it's only to refer to AArpey and Horton. Maybe those two just happened to be crappy management material. It's not necessarily because of Crandall's influence. I'm sure there were plenty of competent AA employees who were hired and worked under Crandall. If not, the airline wouldn't still be running.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 21):
What would be wrong with trying to hire someone away from Southwest to be AA/AMR's next CEO? Granted, there may be restrictive covenants in the employment agreements of senior executives at Southwest, but those can be overcome. About 20 years ago, Chrysler hired away a senior executive from GM to become CEO.

Just because another company is good at what they do doesn't mean someone from there will be a good fit in another completely different system. AA and Southwest are about as far apart in their way of doing things as any two domestic airlines. And AA is not about to go the LCC route.


User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 636 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8676 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 22):
Just because another company is good at what they do doesn't mean someone from there will be a good fit in another completely different system. AA and Southwest are about as far apart in their way of doing things as any two domestic airlines. And AA is not about to go the LCC route.

Bingo. A much better option would be to opt for a CEO from an entirely different industry.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8652 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 17):
This strike vote makes no sense. It is not even posturing, just a total waste of time.

I will pass that info off to the leadership of APA asap, as they may not be aware of that. Thank you.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
Will the pensions convert to 401k?

The A plan will be frozen versus terminated and the benefits earned will be paid as an annuity. The B plan will be terminated and we have the option of having the funds rolled over into an IRA or 401K. Future contributions, I am estimating at14%, will be put into the 401K. That is in addition to the full amount we will be able to contribute per law.

[Edited 2012-10-03 10:16:58]

User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 636 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8661 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 24):
Future contributions, I am estimating at14%, will be put into the 401K. That is in addition to the full amount we will be able to contribute per law.

So if you earned 200k gross, you could stick roughly $45k annually into your 401(k) with AA's contribution on top of yours?


User currently onlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4212 posts, RR: 37
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8058 times:

alluminumtubing- do you guys have any over 12 flights, and if so, is it 2 captains and 2 FOs like DL or 1 CA and 3 FOs like UA?


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinecatdaddy63 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8102 times:
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Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 25):
So if you earned 200k gross, you could stick roughly $45k annually into your 401(k) with AA's contribution on top of yours?

For 2012, the IRS limits 401K contributions to $17000, or $22500 if the individual is age 50 or older.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7895 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 25):
So if you earned 200k gross, you could stick roughly $45k annually into your 401(k) with AA's contribution on top of yours?

The standard limit for this year, is of course $17000 plus catch up of $5500 for being over 50. But the limit with company contributions included is I think around $54000. Anyway, it is above $50K. Anything over that limit, would be paid out as taxable income.

So based on an income of $200k, that would be around $50.5 which is under the cap.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 26):
alluminumtubing- do you guys have any over 12 flights, and if so, is it 2 captains and 2 FOs like DL or 1 CA and 3 FOs like UA?
PVG, NRT and DEL for example are / were crewed with 1 CA, 1FO, 1FB and a FC. 1 CA and 3 FO's.

[Edited 2012-10-03 15:27:35]

User currently onlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4212 posts, RR: 37
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7842 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 28):

PVG, NRT and DEL for example are / were crewed with 1 CA, 1FO, 1FB and a FC. 1 CA and 3 FO's.

Blargh! That's another place where you guys are far from the top. Don't forget that with these negotiations to try to bring you "down" to the level of your highly profitable competitors.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7564 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 28):
1FB and a FC

Excuse my ignorance, but what's an FB and FC?



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7571 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 30):
Excuse my ignorance, but what's an FB and FC?

They are affectionately called FB -Food Boy and FC - Food Critic. They are the two relief FO's.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7517 times:

Here is a link from a DFW radio talk show program today. AA spokesman and APA spokesman were invited. AA no showed, but APA did show up. Well presented, I thought.


https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/Videos/VideoPlayer/TabId/865/VideoId/151/The-Wells-Report-APA-Vs-Bruce-Hicks-No-Show-Audio-File.aspx


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7690 posts, RR: 25
Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7236 times:

Aluminumtubing, what would you say the largest sticking points in the negotiations are? What is it that AA doesnt want to give in on and what is it the pilots dont want to give in on?

I did listen to the interview in the link and I actually thought it was a one sided bashfest.

[Edited 2012-10-04 04:57:54]


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User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 34, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7213 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 33):
I did listen to the interview in the link and I actually thought it was a one sided bashfest.

It was to a certain extent, but most of the points weren't far off. AA's speaking points are somewhat a bashfest as well. The host invited both sides, but AA didn't wan't to participate in the discussion. APA was willing, showed up and gave their side which is what one would expect. AA refused to participate. Why? It's kind of like last nights debate. Each side bashed the other. At least they both showed up!

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 33):

Aluminumtubing, what would you say the largest sticking points in the negotiations are?

As far as sticking points, the primary areas are pay and scope. The pilots want a pathway back to industry standards, which I don't believe to be unrealistic. Scope is huge. People say that we should just be thankful we have jobs. Well, if they outsource the jobs, where are we? I will be retired before scope gets to the point it will personally affect me, but the junior pilots feel they have nothing to lose. Even at that, scope is big to me, because I don't want to see our junior pilots' careers destroyed and I certainly don't want to have the high time experienced pilots replaced by brand new pilots. And yes, experience does matter. A lot. I am very picky when it comes to who I will let fly my family. There are other areas that need to be discussed as well, but those two items are the biggest.

Almost as important, pilots are not like dogs. It's very hard to train us to roll over and play dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say it is extremely difficult. The majority of the pilots will not accept a last best final offer shoved down their throats. The pilots feel they have a skill set that AA needs to be successful and that there is a price for that. The pilots expect a "negotiated" settlement that works for both sides. A lot of people here don't like that, and that is fine. They are not the ones in this position and they will not be making the decisions on behalf of the pilots.

I think we will know in fairly short order how this will play out. This will not be a long drawn out process of the past. Either both sides reach an agreement that works for both sides, or AA will cease to exist in its present form. As I mentioned in a previous thread, i sat my wife down and said to pray for the best, but brace for the worst.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7170 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
Scope is huge. People say that we should just be thankful we have jobs. Well, if they outsource the jobs, where are we? I will be retired before scope gets to the point it will personally affect me, but the junior pilots feel they have nothing to lose.

The key, I think, is what the APA is defining as "industry standard" as related to scope. Would, for example, the APA accept something similar to the latest Delta agreement, which if applied to AA would allow a substantial number of additional large RJs over what AA now operates? That would seem to be fairly "industry standard" to me, but would be a fairly material change to the scope protections APA has now (which, again, just goes to further emphasize in my mind how uncompetitive AA's pilots contract had become in several key areas in the last few years).

And on the subject of scope: what did Parker propose to the APA in that area? Under the Parker term sheet, how many large RJs would the "new AA" be permitted to operate?

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
The pilots expect a "negotiated" settlement that works for both sides.
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
I think we will know in fairly short order how this will play out. This will not be a long drawn out process of the past. Either both sides reach an agreement that works for both sides, or AA will cease to exist in its present form.

If that is representative of an attitude prevalent among APA members - and I suspect it is - then I will be interested to see how willing the APA actually is to "negotiate."

Will the APA now try and reverse the roles and play the spoiler who comes in, demands "industry standard" as they define it, and refuse anything else AA offers, threatening to "shut the place down" if they don't get what they want? This again comes back to the two opposing forces at work here: Horton needs a contract that is sufficiently low-cost that it allows him to build the "standalone" business plan so it compares favorably with the UCC versus the Parker plan, while many pilots seem to be suggesting that the Delta/United contracts, or at a minimum the new Parker term sheet, are the starting point.

So I guess one question then is: assuming (just assuming) Horton came to the pilots and said we'll give you the exact same term sheet Parker proposed to you, would the APA take it? And then assuming that happened, could Horton build a business plan based around the Parker pilot term sheet that, still taking advantage of the other union contracts already renegotiated (net of the "me too" clauses) that beats out the Parker plan in the eyes of the UCC?

Ultimately, it seems pretty clear to me that AA has - in all the negotiations to-date - been fairly unwilling to engage in much give-and-take, at least with the pilots, so I wonder now if the APA will take that same approach in reverse?


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4031 posts, RR: 13
Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7092 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
That would seem to be fairly "industry standard" to me, but would be a fairly material change to the scope protections APA has now

By industry standard he meant pick the best bits of every single contract out there and piece them together.



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User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7113 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
The key, I think, is what the APA is defining as "industry standard" as related to scope. Would, for example, the APA accept something similar to the latest Delta agreement, which if applied to AA would allow a substantial number of additional large RJs over what AA now operates? That would seem to be fairly "industry standard" to me, but would be a fairly material change to the scope protections APA has now (which, again, just goes to further emphasize in my mind how uncompetitive AA's pilots contract had become in several key areas in the last few years).

And on the subject of scope: what did Parker propose to the APA in that area? Under the Parker term sheet, how many large RJs would the "new AA" be permitted to operate?

You bring up an excellent point regarding scope as it relates to Delta. I am going to give MY opinion on this. If the pilots want Delta's pay and contractual working conditions, then in my opinion, they will have to accept their scope provisions as well. If we want Delta's contract, we have to take the good with the not so good. I do think that is doable. Scope unfortunately, is now part of the industry. Negotiating compromises is one thing, but of course, wholesale outsourcing is another.

As far as Parker and scope, I have not really looked into all the details. If and when the time comes, I will. Right now, everything is so "theoretical" in nature.

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
If that is representative of an attitude prevalent among APA members - and I suspect it is - then I will be interested to see how willing the APA actually is to "negotiate.

I am not sure how to exactly take the context of "negotiate". I absolutely guarantee the pilots want a negotiated settlement. NOBODY likes where we are and where we are headed. I will pose the statement right back...It will be interesting to see how willing AA is to "negotiate". I think it just goes without saying, that if the two sides can not reach a consensual agreement that works for both sides, that this simply will not work going forward.

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
Will the APA now try and reverse the roles and play the spoiler who comes in, demands "industry standard" as they define it, and refuse anything else AA offers, threatening to "shut the place down" if they don't get what they want?

Correct me if I am wrong, but this statement seems a bit over the top and one sided. The one thing I have tried to be, agree with me or not, has been to be fair and balanced during all this, pointing out the warts on both sides. No one is threatening to nuke the place. As I just mentioned above, either a consensual agreement is reached that works for both sides, or this simply will not work long term. I think it is fairly easy to determine industry standard. And the APA has been offering proposals for the last 6 years that would provide a number of things that would benefit AA (somethings of course that wouldn't), but AA has had this take it or leave it attitude. They knew full well they were going to file Chapter 11. I sure as hell did. I missed the filing date by a just a few days based on my personal guesstimate. And if I could determine that they would file and when, any half witted ninny should have been able to see it coming as quickly as it did as well. Says something about financial analysts, doesn't it. They knew they could just stall because they would eventually have us by the you know whats. Well, we didn't squeal like stuck pigs they were expecting. Now, they are moving to plan B.

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
Horton came to the pilots and said we'll give you the exact same term sheet Parker proposed to you, would the APA take it?

I highly doubt it. I think APA was willing to be more flexible in order to help facilitate a merger and eliminate Horton and Company. Again, just my humble opinion.

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
Ultimately, it seems pretty clear to me that AA has - in all the negotiations to-date - been fairly unwilling to engage in much give-and-take, at least with the pilots, so I wonder now if the APA will take that same approach in reverse?

I think the APA leadership is more pragmatic than they are given credit for. In my heart of hearts, I do believe they will negotiate in an attempt to reach an agreement both sides can live with. As ticked off as I have been at APA leadership on a number of occasions, I absolutely believe they are capable of negotiating in good faith. In all honesty, right now I am more concerned with the AA side.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7097 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 36):
By industry standard he meant pick the best bits of every single contract out there and piece them together.

If I may be direct..... All your posts are so one sided and do not appear to come from a sincere informed viewpoint.
I really don't know where you come up with these statements. They are over the top and unrealistic. No half witted moron, which to you means AA pilot, would view your statement as the definition of industry leading standard. You obviously have an agenda and do not like us. I am truly sorry about that. But trust me, we really don't beat our wives and abandon innocent puppies on the side of the road. Geesh laweeze, lets get real here!

[Edited 2012-10-04 06:24:07]

User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 636 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7011 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 28):
The standard limit for this year, is of course $17000 plus catch up of $5500 for being over 50. But the limit with company contributions included is I think around $54000. Anyway, it is above $50K. Anything over that limit, would be paid out as taxable income.

So based on an income of $200k, that would be around $50.5 which is under the cap.

So to state the obvious...this is a huge benefit. The company contribution alone can equal more than the Annual US Median Wage. Do you pilots consider that as part of compensation? Was the pension even more lucrative (paid in more than 30k per year)?

Most people in a non-unionized environment would kill for a benefit like that. Doesn't mean you're not worth it, but I hope you consider it part of your paycheck...


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7022 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 37):
If the pilots want Delta's pay and contractual working conditions, then in my opinion, they will have to accept their scope provisions as well. If we want Delta's contract, we have to take the good with the not so good. I do think that is doable. Scope unfortunately, is now part of the industry.

Yes.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 37):
I will pose the statement right back...It will be interesting to see how willing AA is to "negotiate".

Well, as I said, I think it's clear AA has been less than forthcoming in their willingness to negotiate. That is pretty clear. The question now becomes - if AA came in, changed their MO, and were more open to compromise, would the APA be, or are the APA members now sufficiently infuriated that the political pressure will be on the APA leaders to get an unrealistically-good deal, or nothing? Ah, politics.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 37):
No one is threatening to nuke the place.

There are other forums on the internet where self-identified AA pilots are speaking of "teaching the company a lesson," Delta/United or nothing, and "shutting the place down." It's out there. I'm not saying it's representative of the majority of APA members (the internet tends to often attract the extremes on both sides of an issue), but it is out there.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 37):
I highly doubt it. I think APA was willing to be more flexible in order to help facilitate a merger and eliminate Horton and Company. Again, just my humble opinion.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. The APA says they want "industry-standard." Four months ago they thought the deal Parker put in front of them was "industry-standard." So now if Horton gave them that same deal, and they rejected it, what to make of that? Who would be unwilling to "negotiate" or "compromise," then?

[Edited 2012-10-04 06:51:30]

User currently offlinenorcal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7010 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
The key, I think, is what the APA is defining as "industry standard" as related to scope. Would, for example, the APA accept something similar to the latest Delta agreement, which if applied to AA would allow a substantial number of additional large RJs over what AA now operates? That would seem to be fairly "industry standard" to me, but would be a fairly material change to the scope protections APA has now (which, again, just goes to further emphasize in my mind how uncompetitive AA's pilots contract had become in several key areas in the last few years).

At this point, Delta scope would be an improvement over the LBFO and the term sheet.

I'd even say that the pay rates should be less then Delta right now to allow the company to regain some financial footing, but that a snap back is incorporated that bring's AA on par with United and Delta pay scales in 3 years time.

Furthermore I think the company should try and incentivize (not require) additional productivity beyond Delta. For example, JetBlue pays 1.5 times the hourly rate for hours flown beyond 78 in a month. Something along those lines would be great, especially for the narrow body fleet. That would encourage AA pilots to act more like JetBlue and Southwest pilots and produce the additional productivity that these carriers enjoy using their incentives.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1379 posts, RR: 3
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6980 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 21):

First, has anyone considered the possiblity that the UCC pushed AA to send the letter threatening litigation? If the operational issues were to continue, the creditors see their chances seeing AA make good on their debts fading away.

I would think that's certainly possible. But given the level of escalationary risk, it would have been a foolhardy or desperate thing to do.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 22):

That is completely anecdotal. While oft brought up, it's only to refer to AArpey and Horton. Maybe those two just happened to be crappy management material. It's not necessarily because of Crandall's influence.

Maybe. The problem with the whole Crandall era is somewhat two-dimensional, (at least). First, he didn't really leave much in the way of a succession plan. I'm sure he hears from the new staff at Amon Carter from time to time, but his leadership style, so to speak, was never something that was enshrined after his departure.
Second, that may be a good thing. What worked for him likely won't fly these days anyway, at least not without a good deal of modification.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 22):

Just because another company is good at what they do doesn't mean someone from there will be a good fit in another completely different system. AA and Southwest are about as far apart in their way of doing things as any two domestic airlines. And AA is not about to go the LCC route.

While I would tend to agree with that, the truth is that AA will have to implement structural changes sooner or later anyway. I think they're going to keep a lot of what they already are going forward, but I also don't think that precludes them taking a more LCC route domestically. I can't help remembering, after all, that they were the 1st legacy to charge for checked baggage.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
Scope is huge. People say that we should just be thankful we have jobs. Well, if they outsource the jobs, where are we?

Right. While it's clear that there will have to be changes here, I do agree that it's very easy to go too far in that regard. Something else that's not often talked about with scope is that the regional flight crews aren't exactly thrilled with it either. For them, it simply means more time waiting at lower wages before fewer slots open up at mainline jobs.

Assuming AA & APA work out a six year contract (which I still think is quite a bit of time), I'd expect this issue to come up again...

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 38):
But trust me, we really don't beat our wives and abandon innocent puppies on the side of the road.

Nobody's perfect,  



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 43, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6989 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 39):
So to state the obvious...this is a huge benefit. The company contribution alone can equal more than the Annual US Median Wage. Do you pilots consider that as part of compensation? Was the pension even more lucrative (paid in more than 30k per year)?

Yes, it is a good benefit. I hope it wasn't me people hear whining?   We were getting contributions into our A fund and 11% of salary put into our B fund. So, the 14% if agreed to (and was actually already in the LBFO..actually 13.5%, but I rounded), is designed to replace those contributions and instead of AA sponsored plans, the money would be put into the 401K. So, based on your $200K salary figure, AA would contribute roughly $28K and we would still be able to make the typical contributions anyone can on top of that.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 39):
Most people in a non-unionized environment would kill for a benefit like that. Doesn't mean you're not worth it, but I hope you consider it part of your paycheck...

As you know, it is not so much hourly pay (paycheck), it is the total compensation package. And yes, that is a big part of it.

Quoting commavia (Reply 40):
Well, as I said, I think it's clear AA has been less than forthcoming in their willingness to negotiate. That is pretty clear. The question now becomes - if AA came in, changed their MO, and were more open to compromise, would the APA be, or are the APA members now sufficiently infuriated that the political pressure will be on the APA leaders to get an unrealistically-good deal, or nothing? Ah, politics

At this point I am just going to ignore the chest beating that has been going on from both sides and just sit back and wait. Can't do much else.

Quoting commavia (Reply 40):
There are other forums on the internet where self-identified AA pilots are speaking of "teaching the company a lesson," Delta/United or nothing, and "shutting the place down."

I won't deny that for a second. I have seen them. I call them the 12 angry men. (From the movie) They are NOT the majority. Remember the 10% rule??? Each and every occupation is subject to it. There are always going to be 10% that are idiots.

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
I'd even say that the pay rates should be less then Delta right now to allow the company to regain some financial footing, but that a snap back is incorporated that bring's AA on par with United and Delta pay scales in 3 years time.

You are wise and pragmatic.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6991 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 42):
Right. While it's clear that there will have to be changes here, I do agree that it's very easy to go too far in that regard. Something else that's not often talked about with scope is that the regional flight crews aren't exactly thrilled with it either. For them, it simply means more time waiting at lower wages before fewer slots open up at mainline jobs.

That sentiment has been common with just about 95% of all the regional jumpseaters I have had. They don't want us to pull the rug out from under them and relegate them to lesser careers.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7001 times:

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
At this point, Delta scope would be an improvement over the LBFO and the term sheet.

But, for APA members, the current Delta scope would be a huge downgrade, strategically, from the previous AA scope provision - that was the point I was making.

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
I'd even say that the pay rates should be less then Delta right now to allow the company to regain some financial footing, but that a snap back is incorporated that bring's AA on par with United and Delta pay scales in 3 years time.

Similar to what AA's LBFO had, a 3-year "industry standard" adjustment snapback, yes?

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
Furthermore I think the company should try and incentivize (not require) additional productivity beyond Delta. For example, JetBlue pays 1.5 times the hourly rate for hours flown beyond 78 in a month. Something along those lines would be great, especially for the narrow body fleet. That would encourage AA pilots to act more like JetBlue and Southwest pilots and produce the additional productivity that these carriers enjoy using their incentives.

Agreed - logical, makes sense.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6955 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 45):
Similar to what AA's LBFO had, a 3-year "industry standard" adjustment snapback, yes?

True, but the language was "quite vague".


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5476 posts, RR: 30
Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6799 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
APA was willing, showed up and gave their side which is what one would expect. AA refused to participate. Why?

Because negotiating in public is idiotic. The situation is heated enough as it is without both sides continuing to stir the pot with moronic public announcements. Keeping it private until a vote would be the smart thing but not much smart has happened yet in this entire debacle.

The public one upmanship does absolutely no good and a great deal of harm. In private, words can be taken back. In public, they are out there forever.

Both sides should grow the hell up and keep this mess behind closed doors until they hammer out a solution...but that won't happen since there are too many glory boys on both sides who can't help but open their yaps if they see a microphone.



What the...?
User currently offlineJoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6797 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):

A little late now, isn't it? They piss off an entire customer base and smear AA's reputation (along with their own) and now they're playing it conservatively?

The past few years my dad has been flying OMA-TPA every other week and likes to book in advance. He was splitting his trips between F9 and AA the past couple of years. F9 hasn't brought back TPA-OMA yet and he said he's tired of AA delayed flights so he just booked about 8-10 trips in paid F at $1200-$1500 each for January - April. Seeing that F9 stopped flying, all that business would have gone to AA. That is some lost revenue there!!

He did say that if AA figures it out, he'll go back because he hates all the RJ's that UA is now flying to OMA after the merger without first class on them. (that discussion is for another thread)


User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 636 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6750 times:

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
I'd even say that the pay rates should be less then Delta right now to allow the company to regain some financial footing, but that a snap back is incorporated that bring's AA on par with United and Delta pay scales in 3 years time.

I think that sounds very fair.

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
Furthermore I think the company should try and incentivize (not require) additional productivity beyond Delta. For example, JetBlue pays 1.5 times the hourly rate for hours flown beyond 78 in a month. Something along those lines would be great, especially for the narrow body fleet. That would encourage AA pilots to act more like JetBlue and Southwest pilots and produce the additional productivity that these carriers enjoy using their incentives

Wouldn't that be of very little value since most of you would butt up to your 1000 hour annual flight hour limit?


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 50, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6736 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 47):
Both sides should grow the hell up

I couldn't agree more!


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6470 times:

For anyone interested in the latest on the negotiations between APA and AA, below is a copy of the latest email blast from the APA negotiating committee.......


The Negotiating Committee met with management every day this week. Talks focused on a wide array of APA concerns which include, but are not limited to: compensation, scope, disability, sick, injuries on duty, A319 pay rates, furlough protection, the possibility of slowing down base closures, and the potential for remote satellite bases.

We will be briefing the APA Board of Directors on the status of negotiations during next week's Board meeting. While there are some very difficult issues yet to be resolved, we feel management is clearly listening to our issues and acknowledges that they need to be addressed. The framework for any potential agreement must meet or exceed the guidance given to us by the APA Board of Directors, based on your collective inputs. Enough progress has been made to justify the continuation of negotiations next week.

Your APA Negotiating Committee


User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6386 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 51):
For anyone interested in the latest on the negotiations between APA and AA, below is a copy of the latest email blast from the APA negotiating committee.......


The Negotiating Committee met with management every day this week. Talks focused on a wide array of APA concerns which include, but are not limited to: compensation, scope, disability, sick, injuries on duty, A319 pay rates, furlough protection, the possibility of slowing down base closures, and the potential for remote satellite bases.

We will be briefing the APA Board of Directors on the status of negotiations during next week's Board meeting. While there are some very difficult issues yet to be resolved, we feel management is clearly listening to our issues and acknowledges that they need to be addressed. The framework for any potential agreement must meet or exceed the guidance given to us by the APA Board of Directors, based on your collective inputs. Enough progress has been made to justify the continuation of negotiations next week.

Your APA Negotiating Committee

This great news to hear!


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13263 posts, RR: 100
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6324 times:
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Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 12):
what I haven't read is the specific contract terms that the parties can't agree to. As we all watch the negotiations begin again, perhaps now is a good time to learn what is at stake.

So here's my questions:

What were the major terms of the AA pilot contract before it was abrogated by the Court?
What does AA want in a new contract?
What do the Pilots want in a new contract?
What, if anything, has US promised the pilots?
What's the difference between DL, UA and AA pilot pay and productivity?

What are the differences? I keep hearing complaints, but what specifically do they want on the final paper? Something materially superior to what DL and UA have is very unlikely. It would be good to see a point by point difference on what the two sides have agreed upon and where they have differences. In particular on pilot pay and productivity.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
It's kind of like last nights debate. Each side bashed the other. At least they both showed up!

That requires a fair moderator. I sincerely doubt any radio station, except perhaps NPR and a select number of shows, would offer that forum.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 37):
If the pilots want Delta's pay and contractual working conditions, then in my opinion, they will have to accept their scope provisions as well. If we want Delta's contract, we have to take the good with the not so good.

Well said.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 51):
The framework for any potential agreement must meet or exceed the guidance given to us by the APA Board of Directors, based on your collective inputs.

What is that guidance? Is it as good as DL's for AMR?
There are two sides at the negotiating table and the contract must be fair for both sides.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6303 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 53):
What is that guidance? Is it as good as DL's for AMR?
There are two sides at the negotiating table and the contract must be fair for both sides.

The guidance is a industry standard contract, which by definition should be fair for both sides. If the pilots were asking to have a contract package superior to UA/DL, that would not be "fair" to AA. If AA is asking for a contract that is inferior, that would not be "fair" to the pilots. If AA had industry pilot costs, they would have no excuse to not being able to compete. However, I have never been one to believe life is "fair". You get what you fight for.

My personal opinion, and I know it aint worth much, is that the pay rates will not be instantaneous, but will be close with a rapid filling in of the gap.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 53):
That requires a fair moderator. I sincerely doubt any radio station, except perhaps NPR and a select number of shows, would offer that forum.

My point, is that AA was spouting a lot of kwap, without having to back anything up, but was not willing to debate. I think that a bit cowardly. And as far as NPR being "fair", unless you are a lefty you lost me there.


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5273 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5893 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 22):
That is completely anecdotal. While oft brought up, it's only to refer to AArpey and Horton. Maybe those two just happened to be crappy management material. It's not necessarily because of Crandall's influence. I'm sure there were plenty of competent AA employees who were hired and worked under Crandall. If not, the airline wouldn't still be running.

I know a retired business professor who has seen some studies that suggest that the first employer and its culture has a greater effect on the managerial style of a manager/executive than any subsequent employer.

I can tell you of many, many companies that have wound up hiring an outsider as a CEO, because the board realizes that the culture within the company has been turning out people wholly unprepared to either manage a company or to make the changes (operations, product line-up, etc.) to keep a company successful.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 22):
Just because another company is good at what they do doesn't mean someone from there will be a good fit in another completely different system. AA and Southwest are about as far apart in their way of doing things as any two domestic airlines. And AA is not about to go the LCC route.

I agree that AA isn't and shouldn't go the LCC route. But, a company that is regularly successful will turn out executive talent that will thrive, no matter what the business model.

Granted, if someone's experience has been in dairy operations at Kraft, chances are that he won't do well with one of the Big Three automakers. But, he could certainly be quite successful with most food processors, whether Con Agra, Smithfield, Nestle, or Kellogg's.

But, what are AA's two main problems? Labor relations and customer service. Which airline is known for getting along with labor and providing good customer service? Southwest.

In some ways, the LCC model can be limiting. You don't even think about offering a premium cabin product, and you don't even try to reward the road warriors (25K, 50K and 100K) at Southwest the way AA does.

Someone from Southwest could have a fresh perspective on what to do with First, Business, and AAdvantage elite benefits.

That's not to say that other industries within travel hospitality, such as hotels and cruise lines, wouldn't also make good fits. They would. But if the board of the new AA/AMR were to retain a search firm for hiring a new CEO, and the firm brought in a senior executive from Southwest to interview, he or she should be given some consideration.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12732 posts, RR: 25
Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5765 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 55):
But, a company that is regularly successful will turn out executive talent that will thrive, no matter what the business model.

Granted, if someone's experience has been in dairy operations at Kraft, chances are that he won't do well with one of the Big Three automakers.

Trying desperately to avoid taking this off-topic, but it's not clear if we'd put AA in the "regularly successful" column or not, and Lou Gerstner's jump from RJR Nabisco to IBM is an example of a case were a mortibund, insular corporate culture was successfully turned around by a total outsider.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5273 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5689 times:

A little off topic, but I was on a couple of AA flights the last two weeks. In both instances, the pilots stayed in the cockpits while the passengers were deplaning. I can't think of the last time that a pilot wasn't saying good-bye to deplaning passengers

Now, I could understand yesterday at ORD. The weather had thrown the schedule into disarray (we were about 1:15 late), and the pilots may have been trying to prep for the departure to SFO (if they were working the leg) or at least get their "housekeeping" in order, so that the turnaround would be as quick as possible.

But, getting into BOS on October 5th, the plane was RON. The F/As said good-bye as passengers deplaned.

With the "attention" that the pilots are getting from the media (rightly or wrongly), are they just keeping a low profile, so as not to get into a war of words with a passenger?


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13263 posts, RR: 100
Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5563 times:
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Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 54):
My point, is that AA was spouting a lot of kwap, without having to back anything up, but was not willing to debate.

Agreed. My point is without a fair moderator, it will just be one sided kwap that AMR should not participate in a debate.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 54):
If AA had industry pilot costs, they would have no excuse to not being able to compete. However, I have never been one to believe life is "fair". You get what you fight for.

No argument, but how much can AMR really give and attain concessions in the other groups?

Quoting ckfred (Reply 57):
are they just keeping a low profile, so as not to get into a war of words with a passenger?

Pilots should avoid discussions with passengers. That is a 'no win' situation. That might persuade one (or a small group) to their side, but a video might be damning on the web.

Due to the debt and such, AMR is going to have a tough time emerging competitive. While I wish the best for the pilots, there must be some money left over for stockholders to fund the emerging airline.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 59, posted (2 years 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5187 times:

Once again, posted below is an update from the APA negotiating committee that came out this morning for anyone interested.....

--------------------------

Since negotiations resumed, we have met with management every day, including through the weekends. Management is clearly motivated to negotiate, but that doesn’t mean the process is easy or necessarily coming together quickly. Management is willing to meet 24/7 to reach an agreement; however, because of lessons learned from the past, APA is being methodical in how we go about this. We are not working around the clock, and we are making sure members of our team get sufficient rest and an occasional day off to refresh. Our realistic assessment is that neither side is “kicking the can,” and we are both struggling through an enormously frustrating process.

In recent days, management has made a number of encouraging changes to their positions that move us closer to our stated goal of an industry-standard contract we can be proud of. Some of the moves management has made in recent days include:

- Moving the 737-700 and the A319 into the same pay group as the S80 and 737-800
- Improvements to the disability plan
- Agreement to replenish a pilot’s sick bank after an injury on duty
- Agreement that medical verification would only be required for access to a pilot’s long-term sick bank
- Removal of hotel language that gives preference to airport hotels
- A “home base” concept that could allow some commuters to start their sequences from airports other than the cornerstone pilot bases
- A moratorium on closing the STL pilot base until an arbitration process has been completed
- A moratorium on closing any other pilot bases for at least a year
- Agreeing to remove language in the bankruptcy settlement agreement restricting APA’s right to protest management compensation

Decreasing the number of pay bands is a very helpful move as we transition to talks on creating a methodology for the mid-contract adjustment, which sets us up to keep up with our pilot peers at Delta and United. We continue to make progress in contract-language writing — there are many difficult issues to work through in the days ahead, but each of the past several days has proven productive at the table. Our counterparts at United have been locked up in contract-language writing for some time now, so the challenge is not unique to our situation. Our goal is for any agreement presented to you to be in full contract language.

Finally, our advisers have been in talks with parties expressing interest in purchasing the APA claim. One possible outcome is a backstop offer in which APA would have the option to sell the claim sometime between contract approval by the judge and the plan of restructuring approval date. Our advisers are hopeful that such an offer could equate to an average six-figure pay-out per pilot.

Talks will continue every day for the foreseeable future. We will update you as events warrant.

Your APA Negotiating Committee


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7381 posts, RR: 8
Reply 60, posted (2 years 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5104 times:

A couple question if anyone knows the specifics.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 59):
- Agreement to replenish a pilot’s sick bank after an injury on duty

Usually one get's a certain number of sick days per year, is this a requirement to re-instate the days lost for an injury during the current year?

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 59):
- Removal of hotel language that gives preference to airport hotels

I can understand the "desire" to have pilots hosted at airport hotels, save on transportation and keep pilots close, however, the cost of airport hotels is usually higher than off airport properties. Is this requirement due to noise to get proper rest or the fact that airport hotels are not usually the best?
How about a specification that overnight accomodation allowed at airport and more than one night off airport property?

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 59):
- A moratorium on closing the STL pilot base until an arbitration process has been completed
- A moratorium on closing any other pilot bases for at least a year

Is STL base concern still related to the TWA purchase?
If cost is a concern, forcing the emerged carrier to maintain unprofitable bases even for one year can be costly, if the pilots will be re-located elswhere how about no loss of jobs versus no closure?


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 61, posted (2 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 60):
Usually one get's a certain number of sick days per year, is this a requirement to re-instate the days lost for an injury during the current year?

I believe so, but ONLY for an injury on duty, not for regular sick usage.

Quoting par13del (Reply 60):
I can understand the "desire" to have pilots hosted at airport hotels, save on transportation and keep pilots close, however, the cost of airport hotels is usually higher than off airport properties. Is this requirement due to noise to get proper rest or the fact that airport hotels are not usually the best?
How about a specification that overnight accomodation allowed at airport and more than one night off airport property?

The issue is not specific to location, but input to ensure a safe clean environment.

Quoting par13del (Reply 60):
Is STL base concern still related to the TWA purchase?

If cost is a concern, forcing the emerged carrier to maintain unprofitable bases even for one year can be costly, if the pilots will be re-located elswhere how about no loss of jobs versus no closure?

This is complicated due to seniority issues and fences. I think the intention is to delay closing STL until the issue can be arbitrated.


User currently offlinegegarrenton From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (2 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5047 times:

Thx for update! Hopefully this all gets hammered out before too long.

User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5273 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (2 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5025 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 59):
- Moving the 737-700 and the A319 into the same pay group as the S80 and 737-800

I understand the language regarding the A319, but I didn't think AA was going to take any 737-700s, either NG or MAX. Is this just in case AA becomes as dissatisfied with the A319 as it was with the MD-11?

Also, where is the A321? Is that being put into the 757/762/762 pay group?


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 64, posted (2 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5020 times:

The APA sure seems to be quite confident of its negotiating position. Will be interesting to see how this works out ...

User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 65, posted (2 years 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4994 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 63):
I understand the language regarding the A319, but I didn't think AA was going to take any 737-700s, either NG or MAX. Is this just in case AA becomes as dissatisfied with the A319 as it was with the MD-11?

No specific orders on the -700's. Only makes sense to include like type aircraft so AA has the flexibility and the pay rates to go with possible future aircraft.

Quoting commavia (Reply 64):
The APA sure seems to be quite confident of its negotiating position. Will be interesting to see how this works out ...

Apparently, they are rapidly closing out many contract sections with specific contract language being written or already written. They promised we would have the contract language in place prior to any vote. We don't want to get burned again. As you can imagine, specific scope and pay rates will be negotiated at the end. The two toughest items. I think (my opinion), that scope will either be like UA/DL or like the CLA APA negotiated with US and that there will be a jump in pay rates in the near term with a mid contract bump up to UA/DL rates. I tend to be a realist versus an optimist, so we will see.

[Edited 2012-10-21 13:24:05]

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 66, posted (2 years 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4966 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 65):
Apparently, they are rapidly closing out many contract sections with specific contract language being written or already written.

That sounds like a good thing.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 65):
They promised we would have the contract language in place prior to any vote. We don't want to get burned again.

Fair.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 65):
As you can imagine, specific scope and pay rates will be negotiated at the end. The two toughest items.

Yep - to be expected.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 65):
I think (my opinion), that scope will either be like UA/DL or like the CLA APA negotiated with US and that there will be a jump in pay rates in the near term with a mid contract bump up to UA/DL rates.

It will be very interesting to see what the APA demands, versus what the company is willing to give. The message distributed to members yesterday seemed to be fairly "take-it-or-leave-it" towards the company, but I'm not sure how much that was a negotiating tactic, how much that was simply reflective of members own attitudes, etc.

I suspect the company will be more willing to move on pure scope - i.e., regional jets - and probably towards the Delta/United model. AA badly needs a sub-100-seat jet, APA knows it, and the two sides should be able to work something out on that.

Codesharing I can see being tougher. The APA is not stupid - they know that, at least on the issue of domestic codesharing, they have the company in a tough spot. The memo from the MEC says they want the company to agree to the same domestic codesharing language as Parker. The APA knows that a standalone AA needs domestic codesharing more than a merged "new AA" does, because a standalone AA badly wants to codeshare with JetBlue, and expand codesharing with Alaska. If the APA is unwilling to accept a proposal that allows that, and instead refuses to move past what Parker agreed to, that will challenge the standalone business plan Horton badly wants to sell.

Fascinating as always ...


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 724 posts, RR: 14
Reply 67, posted (2 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4825 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 59):
Finally, our advisers have been in talks with parties expressing interest in purchasing the APA claim. One possible outcome is a backstop offer in which APA would have the option to sell the claim sometime between contract approval by the judge and the plan of restructuring approval date. Our advisers are hopeful that such an offer could equate to an average six-figure pay-out per pilot.

Thats a very interesting option. Who is meant to be interested in buying the pilots' claim? Private equity, eg Texas Pacific Partners? Hedge Funds? If you can talk more aout how all that would be work, I would be interested.

Pu


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 68, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 67):
Thats a very interesting option. Who is meant to be interested in buying the pilots' claim? Private equity, eg Texas Pacific Partners? Hedge Funds? If you can talk more aout how all that would be work, I would be interested.

That statement is all we know regarding the equity stake. I had heard rumblings of that, but as of now, there is no other information available. If I hear anything else, I will post it.


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 69, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4669 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 59):
Moving the 737-700 and the A319 into the same pay group as the S80 and 737-800

Does this mean that the S80 and 738 are currently in the same pay group? If so I find that slightly surprising given that the S80 is smaller and the 738 crew fly longer segments (i.e. Transcons)



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 70, posted (2 years 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4607 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 69):
Does this mean that the S80 and 738 are currently in the same pay group? If so I find that slightly surprising given that the S80 is smaller and the 738 crew fly longer segments (i.e. Transcons)

They will be in the same "group". Currently, we don't have groups, just pay rates based on a formula which consists of speed, weight, etc. Currently, there is a small hourly difference between the two. Without looking it up, I think it is in the $3-4 per hour range.


User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 71, posted (2 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4490 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 59):
- Agreeing to remove language in the bankruptcy settlement agreement restricting APA’s right to protest management compensation

This was most surprising to me. What was APA given to offset not being able to call management out on their salary? Also, does the compensation include the outrageous bonuses they take as well? I'd assume so but just making sure. Thanks for your input.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 72, posted (2 years 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4360 times:

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 71):
This was most surprising to me. What was APA given to offset not being able to call management out on their salary? Also, does the compensation include the outrageous bonuses they take as well? I'd assume so but just making sure. Thanks for your input.

I don't fully understand all that this piece entails.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12732 posts, RR: 25
Reply 73, posted (2 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4241 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 59):
Some of the moves management has made in recent days include:

- Moving the 737-700 and the A319 into the same pay group as the S80 and 737-800
- Improvements to the disability plan
- Agreement to replenish a pilot’s sick bank after an injury on duty
- Agreement that medical verification would only be required for access to a pilot’s long-term sick bank
- Removal of hotel language that gives preference to airport hotels
- A “home base” concept that could allow some commuters to start their sequences from airports other than the cornerstone pilot bases
- A moratorium on closing the STL pilot base until an arbitration process has been completed
- A moratorium on closing any other pilot bases for at least a year
- Agreeing to remove language in the bankruptcy settlement agreement restricting APA’s right to protest management compensation

Some of these details seem to me to give some credence to Carty's claim in the recent thread where he said he retired in part because he was unhappy about how management had to negotiate out every tiny detail for each thing it wanted to do.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 59):
Finally, our advisers have been in talks with parties expressing interest in purchasing the APA claim.

What is the "APA claim"?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 74, posted (2 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4092 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):

Carry didn't "retire" . He was forced out. I also disagree with his assessment.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 73):

It relates to the pension hit. That loss puts us is a creditor position.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 724 posts, RR: 14
Reply 75, posted (2 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 74):

That loss puts us is a creditor position

...and given management's fabulous and thorough erasure of shareholder value, the pilots' position as creditors makes a helluva argument that they are justified in the bankruptcy process exerting as much input into American's destiny as management* itself.

Pu




*presuming management had no meaningful contracts to themeselves (aka legal promises) broken by management's decision to pursue bankruptcy


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12732 posts, RR: 25
Reply 76, posted (2 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3799 times:

Quoting pu (Reply 75):
the pilots' position as creditors makes a helluva argument that they are justified in the bankruptcy process exerting as much input into American's destiny as management* itself.

It's interesting then how the pilots are looking into how to cash out that position:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 59):
Finally, our advisers have been in talks with parties expressing interest in purchasing the APA claim. One possible outcome is a backstop offer in which APA would have the option to sell the claim sometime between contract approval by the judge and the plan of restructuring approval date. Our advisers are hopeful that such an offer could equate to an average six-figure pay-out per pilot.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 724 posts, RR: 14
Reply 77, posted (2 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3915 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 76):
It's interesting then how the pilots are looking into how to cash out that position:

Because owning a piece of a company run by this management has already proven a catastrophic investment once, any pilot would only be rational to prefer a cash-out than leave their assets (effectively their retirement savings) in the loving hands of Horton & friends.

HOWEVER, if its true that each pilot's share is a six figure, AA mgmt could themselves offer the pilots' shares to a private equity group for cash and turn around and offer the pilots each a $100k signing bonus which might make a temporaray 2 or 3 year get-out-of-bankruptcy contract somewhat below DL and UA more palatable.

Pu


User currently offlinecatdaddy63 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3606 times:
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Looks like the current round of talks might be coming to a positive end.

http://www.kvue.com/news/176098131.html


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 79, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3575 times:

Quoting catdaddy63 (Reply 78):

Looks like the current round of talks might be coming to a positive end.

The article states an 11% contribution of salary to the 401k. In actuality, it is 14%.

We are hearing conflicting information, but the "Official" channels have been pretty quiet. Trying to stay optimistic and hopefully something will be announced soon.


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3476 posts, RR: 46
Reply 80, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 79):
The article states an 11% contribution of salary to the 401k. In actuality, it is 14%.

11% is an accurate number. 14% was the company's offer for replacing BOTH retirement plans (A-fund & B-fund) with a single 401k plan. There has been no agreement signed.... yet.


Laura Einspanier 10/26/12 letter:
"...the Company will provide an 11% contribution to pilots’ $uper $aver accounts for pay based on flying performed after the pension plans are frozen."

Denise Lynn 10/26/12 letter:
"...and to ensure there is no gap in retirement benefits for pilots when the current retirement plans freeze, in the interim the company will continue to provide an 11% contribution to your $uper $aver account and will be based on the pay you earn for work performed after the plans are frozen on Nov. 1 (subject to any applicable IRS limits). These discretionary contributions will be applied against contributions to be made under the replacement retirement plan anticipated as a part of a new collective bargaining agreement."



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 80):
11% is an accurate number. 14% was the company's offer for replacing BOTH retirement plans (A-fund & B-fund) with a single 401k plan. There has been no agreement signed.... yet.

You are absolutely correct. My error. Thanks.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 82, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2947 times:

Once again, here is the latest email blast from the APA negotiating team for those interested on the latest...




Fellow pilots,

This update will be somewhat longer than normal as we try to give you as much information and perspective as possible regarding the current circumstances.
Sometimes, at the end-game, things tend to get quiet, as the parties struggle to determine whether a deal is genuinely attainable. Dynamics at the negotiating table are an endless emotional rollercoaster. Sometimes things get so contentious that we need to take healthy breaks and park certain subjects and even change up the personalities on both sides to keep things moving forward in a professional manner. At other times, we build momentum and a healthy amount of progress is made.
Suffice it to say that we (the Negotiating Committee, National Officers and Board of Directors) hear you loud and clear. With your vote, you are the final authority in the decision-making process. We are mindful of that fact every day we spend at the negotiating table.
In this current round of negotiations, we have confirmed what many of you believed — that there are improvements to be had compared to management's “last, best, final offer” (LBFO). A number of those improvements have already surfaced at the table. By rejecting the original TA, the membership gave us the tools to be able to go further in the bankruptcy process than any other pilot group has dared to go. Ultimately, we believe management will make the moves they need to make on the remaining key deal points so we can embrace an industry-standard contract and look forward to rebuilding our careers.
Reaching a deal in bankruptcy means we strive to achieve the maximum value possible in a process where an agreement must ultimately be approved by a bankruptcy judge. Before approving an agreement, a judge must evaluate a number of legal standards and inputs from the debtor and the Unsecured Creditors’ Committee (UCC). On a number of issues, the UCC recognizes our genuine concerns and they continue to confirm their commitment to our 13.5 percent equity claim, as long as an agreement is reached “promptly and such agreement is within reasonably justifiable economic parameters.”
To receive bankruptcy court approval for our claim, we need to reach an agreement approved by the bankruptcy court judge. If no agreement is reached, AMR has the right to impose work rules and we must litigate for our claim. While we may be ultimately successful, this approach carries risks, especially without the weight of the UCC on our side and in light of some difficult case law.
So what are the options ahead?
At the risk of stating the obvious, that "Green Book with Delta Rates" or "Delta Rates on Date-of-Signing With No Gives on Scope" are things we would love to deliver in this process, but not anything we can realistically expect the UCC to support or the bankruptcy judge to approve. The only path to those goals would be to acknowledge that we won't achieve an agreement inside bankruptcy, and that we are willing to accept whatever rocky ride lies ahead and whatever time it takes to reach those goals. That is a potential path, but it carries with it a great deal of risk and uncertainty. We must all decide on our path together. We should be mindful that our advisers tell us the current market appears to value our equity claim at a level that would provide a six-figure cash payout per pilot on average. Our advisers anticipate that such a payout could be realized at or near AMR’s emergence from bankruptcy for those pilots who elect for a payout at that time. We’re unwilling to accept any deal based solely upon an equity stake, but part of the decision involves weighing the potential "bird in hand" against the "path less traveled" where we would have to litigate for the claim.
Is an industry-standard contract achievable inside bankruptcy? Our opinion is yes. But we don't want to play cute with words or try to spin things, so let's review the surreal process over the past 12 months and examine what "industry standards" include.
When AMR filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy, we were flooded with phone calls and e-mails asking us how much we thought the pay cuts would be. After negotiations with AMR in February and March 2012 failed to produce any results, US Airways management entered the picture and we negotiated a conditional labor agreement (CLA) with them that served several purposes. The CLA preserves a very substantial amount of the Green Book, with nearly half of the concessions accounted for by freezing our defined-benefit pension plan. The CLA is a historic document and puts more tangible pressure on AMR management than any other labor group has ever been able to exert on a management inside the bankruptcy process.
Following a very contentious court process in May 2012, we entered into court-directed mediated talks with AMR. No agreement was reached and we were left with an LBFO to take to the membership for a vote. The overwhelming “no” vote was less about the contents of the potential contract ― and more a collective decision to go down a different path than the one put in front of us. We are now approaching the point where we will need to collectively make another major decision together.
"Industry standard" likely connotes different things to different pilots. Universally, we all seem to agree that we want Delta pay rates—pay rates that more appropriately compensate us for the enormous responsibility we assume each time we sit down in a cockpit. From there, it gets more complex.
The following are elements of the tentative agreement we all recently voted upon that could be fairly characterized as industry standard:
- Green Book duty rigs (close to Delta)
- No night pay (same as Delta and United)
- International override only paid for trips flown (same as Delta and United)
- Frozen defined benefit plan with 14% follow-on plan (vs. terminated plan and 15% at Delta, terminated plan with 16% at United, 9.2% 401(k) match at Southwest)
- Distance learning paid at 1 for 3 rate (same as Delta)
- Sequence protection notification and obligation period (close approximation to Delta provisions)
- Rapid reaccrual limited to hours used (same as carriers who have rapid reaccrual)
- Elimination of 46-hour max sick charge on reserve (other carriers charge for trips missed. Delta has a unique annual sick program)
- Sick sellback at retirement to a health retirement account up to $25,000 (no retiree medical at Delta)
- PBS (Delta, United, Continental, America West)
- 84-hour monthly average line value (same as Delta, lower than United, Southwest, FedEx, UPS, US Airways and America West)
- Active medical cost-sharing approximately 20% (same range as Delta)
- Pay banding (yes at United, no at Delta)
- We were the only pilot group with no contractual sick verification
- Total vacation value at 10-year point and 24-year point, in line with industry average for legacy carriers
- Reserve 18 days for 73 hours (most carriers 18 days or more. Industry average 18.6)
- Scope: 79-seat jets (Delta, 76-seat jets, 86k max MTOW)
- Codeshare: 50% limit of domestic ASMs (Delta fairly restrictive, United must only notify union of code-shares)
Our point is that a pursuit of Delta pay rates must be accompanied by an intellectually honest acknowledgement that many provisions in the Delta contract (and most likely the new United agreement) are concessions from the Green Book. We encourage all pilots to review the Delta Contract Comparison for more details on what constitutes “industry standard.”
So what’s next?
There is potential for an agreement with AMR in the days ahead, but it all comes down to a number of moves management will need to make on key deal points to bring us into the realm of industry standard. If an agreement comes to fruition and is approved by the membership, we would secure the claim. We would also strengthen our position on the UCC to influence strategic alternatives, the selection of future management and the makeup of the reorganized airline’s board of directors. Our advisers have had extensive discussions with large financial creditors that hold substantial unsecured claims and are confident in the alignment of interests around the need for the appointment of a new board of directors at the airline. The board would then appoint management to lead the reorganized company.
We all need to evaluate any agreement on its merits and as something we might live with for some time. We also need to view an agreement as a potential path to the US Airways CLA. Your Board of Directors has given the Negotiating Committee clear guidance on what to pursue at the bargaining table. The onus is now on management to take the conversation where it should have gone a long time ago.
We are proud to represent all of you at the negotiating table in this very challenging process.
Your APA Negotiating Committee


User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2875 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 82):
Once again, here is the latest email blast from the APA negotiating team for those interested on the latest...




Fellow pilots,

thanks for posting that info. A great insight for an industry outsider on the massive complexities involved. Of course the management group are toying with the same complexities (and more), and will have their own position. The letter seems to be a level headed explanation of facts and where the APA stands in the process.

I've no idea what the 'Green Book' is but interesting to note that the APA management appears to be telling members that if you want the DL rates then you need to look at the DL concessions to get to that point. Also interesting to note that the US CLA comes up in a couple of ways a) as an apparent negotiating tool with AA - no surprise there and b) that the eventual AA agreement may be a patht to the US CLA - hinting at the future possibilities?


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 84, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 82):
Once again, here is the latest email blast from the APA negotiating team for those interested on the latest...

How sad. It appears the two sides have moved far closer, but not close enough - the minimum of what APA is willing to accept ("industry standard," as the APA defines it) is still greater than the maximum the UCC is willing to give. The APA's acknowledgement that there is no way they are going to be able to get everything they want is notable, but alas I think it will mean little to some APA members who are already threatening to "burn the place down." As I said - sad, sad, sad.

It seems - to me - readily apparent from reading that letter that the APA really has no interest in making any deal with AMR management - they'll take one if they like it enough, but now are basically just going through the motions and would rather skip this entire process and move directly to a merger. Amazing.


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 85, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2622 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 84):
It seems - to me - readily apparent from reading that letter that the APA really has no interest in making any deal with AMR management - they'll take one if they like it enough, but now are basically just going through the motions and would rather skip this entire process and move directly to a merger.

At first I was about to disagree vehemently with you, but then I went and re-read the letter. I can now see where you're coming from.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 82):
it all comes down to a number of moves management will need to make on key deal points to bring us into the realm of industry standard. If an agreement comes to fruition and is approved by the membership, we would secure the claim. We would also strengthen our position on the UCC to influence strategic alternatives

It appears to suggest that APA has reached its lowest offer, and it is up to management to "make moves" to their position. "Strategic alternatives" is an ominous phrase...



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25768 posts, RR: 50
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Seems like the concept is for AA-DL-UA to have very similar contracts.

Anyhow, if APA pulls this off kudos to them for looking down the barrel of the gun in BK and not flinching.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 724 posts, RR: 14
Reply 87, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2581 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 82):
the need for the appointment of a new board of directors at the airline.

Roger Staubach was at his best in the 1970s....a few directors with tight business discipline and the ability to reject ingrained management mindset is dearly needed.

Pu


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5273 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 84):
How sad. It appears the two sides have moved far closer, but not close enough - the minimum of what APA is willing to accept ("industry standard," as the APA defines it) is still greater than the maximum the UCC is willing to give. The APA's acknowledgement that there is no way they are going to be able to get everything they want is notable, but alas I think it will mean little to some APA members who are already threatening to "burn the place down." As I said - sad, sad, sad.

It seems - to me - readily apparent from reading that letter that the APA really has no interest in making any deal with AMR management - they'll take one if they like it enough, but now are basically just going through the motions and would rather skip this entire process and move directly to a merger. Amazing.

It seems to me that AMR management and APA leadership are close enough that someone should say, "Let's split the remaining differences 50-50 and be done with it."

On the other hand, APA leadership may be willing to budge some more, but they want to gauge reaction. Are the pilots tired of the whole situation and willing to get a deal done, or are they going to stand pat and think that Doug Parker will save the day? Leadership may be waiting to see what leadership at the crew bases hears from the rank and file.

I've said on a number of threads that Doug Parker is another executive who grew up in the AMR/Bob Crandall culture that has turned out the likes of Don Carty, Gerard Arpey, and Tom Horton. I don't think he is going to be head and shoulders above Carty, Arpey, and Horton and become a great airline CEO, such as Crandall or Gordon Bethune.

By the same token, US is No. 5 on the Zagat list of worst airlines. AA isn't among the 10 worst. Why would anyone who wants to return AA to its position as a leading global carrier want to link up with an airline with such a bad reputation?


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 89, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

I'm not in any way saying that Parker is the next Gordon Bethune, but seeing the improvement at US over the last couple of years (both financially and in terms of customer service) he is doing something right. In terms of quality IMHO the US of 2012 isn't the US of 2007 and unrecognizable from the US of 2002.

As for Zaget, I read the article and choose to ignore it. It reads like a round up of engrained stereotypes pushed by people that know someone who flew US, EZY etc 6 years ago rather than the opinions of frequent flyers.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinegegarrenton From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 89):
I'm not in any way saying that Parker is the next Gordon Bethune, but seeing the improvement at US over the last couple of years (both financially and in terms of customer service) he is doing something right. In terms of quality IMHO the US of 2012 isn't the US of 2007 and unrecognizable from the US of 2002.

I would have to violently disagree with that. I get stuck on US from time to time because of my locale, and it is still as an excruciatingly painful experience than ever.


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 91, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

Quoting gegarrenton (Reply 90):
I get stuck on US from time to time because of my locale, and it is still as an excruciatingly painful experience than ever.

In which case we will have to agree to disagree.

Back in the 2002-05 timeframe we used to fly them quite a bit MAN-PHL-xxx. Back then it was a terrible experience, especially since we always went CO prior to that, at their very best in the late 90s/early 00s.

Since moving to NC I have (almost by default) flown US. In comparison to my recent experiences on AA and UA, I'm rating them higher. Note that this is as a low fare, Y passenger without status so I can't comment about how they treat their FFs/the quality of their F cabin (which I recognise is inferior)



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinegegarrenton From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2272 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 91):

In which case we will have to agree to disagree.

Back in the 2002-05 timeframe we used to fly them quite a bit MAN-PHL-xxx. Back then it was a terrible experience, especially since we always went CO prior to that, at their very best in the late 90s/early 00s.

Since moving to NC I have (almost by default) flown US. In comparison to my recent experiences on AA and UA, I'm rating them higher. Note that this is as a low fare, Y passenger without status so I can't comment about how they treat their FFs/the quality of their F cabin (which I recognise is inferior)

Certainly, I respect your veiwpoint on it.

I have flow US since they took over Piedmont, I live in Virginia Beach, fly out of ORF. I have not seen any appreciable gains in service from them myself over that time. As a non status or not. Just last month I got put on a US bird home from SFO due to an AA cancellation, and US managed to issue my ticket wrong, requiring AA to fix it and resend (Listening to the AA TA rant on US's incompetence was pretty funny), missing the first flight because of that, getting on the next flight, having a ridiculously hostile FA, which happens a lot to me on US, and getting home late. i know this is anecdotal, but it's pretty consistent with what US usually does to me.

I have several friends that fly/flew for US, so I am not totally down on the company, and honestly, they serve this area better than anyone, so if they were even close in the customer service dept, I would totally fly them. They just seem to unerringly lack to me.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 93, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

Latest email from the negotiating committee on November 4 below......


Over the past four days, we have finalized contract language to the point that there are only a handful of open paragraphs still being worked. The remaining points which have not been agreed to by the parties involve final language for an industry pay-parity adjustment, furlough protection, and parameters for regional feed aircraft. Our goal is to reach an agreement on these points and present a final product to the APA Board of Directors at some point this week.

Your APA Negotiating Committee

[Edited 2012-11-04 13:30:20]

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 94, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1956 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 93):
The remaining points which have not been agreed to by the parties involve final language for an industry pay-parity adjustment, furlough protection, and parameters for regional feed aircraft.

Given the context of the APA's exercise in expectation management with its members earlier in the week, I find three things particularly notable about that statement.

First is the reference to an "industry pay-parity adjustment," which would indicate to me - perhaps incorrectly - that the APA has tentatively accepted some form of pay reduction in the short-run in anticipation of a mid-contract "adjustment" to industry (Delta/United) "parity." If I'm reading that indication correctly, it will be interesting to see how that goes over with APA members, at least some of whom have indicated they will never vote yes on any proposal that doesn't bring them to industry pay "parity" on day 1.

Secondly, I find is interesting that this statement specifically refers to the "parameters for regional feed aircraft," with no mention of codesharing - I presume that means that the two parties have come to some form of agreement on codesharing (domestic and international). I will look forward to seeing what that agreement entails.

And finally, the fact that APA characterized the items "which have not been agreed to by the parties involve final language..." Does that mean preliminary language has crossed the table, or even been handshake-agreed to, and they are just working out the specific language? My guess - purely a guess - is that the two parties should not have all too difficult a time coming to agreement on final contractual language regarding the pay adjustment (which apparently was perceived to have had "flimsy" language in the non-so-last-best-and-final offer) and furlough protection (which I believe AA quickly amended in their 1113 filing back to pre-abrogation language after the judge's ruling).

Scope, however, should be interesting. As the APA has rightly acknowledged, scope is really the fundamental crux of any mainline pilot contract negotiated today - if that issue is not addressed "correctly" (from the union's perspective), everything else, to some extent, doesn't matter, because it involves pure/direct outsourcing of mainline pilot jobs. I would be interested to know how close - or far - the two parties are from each other right now on scope.

[Edited 2012-11-04 14:12:10]

User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 95, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

[quote=commavia,reply=94]First is the reference to an "industry pay-parity adjustment," which would indicate to me - perhaps incorrectly - that the APA has tentatively accepted some form of pay reduction in the short-run in anticipation of a mid-contract "adjustment" to industry (Delta/United) "parity." If I'm reading that indication correctly, it will be interesting to see how that goes over with APA members, at least some of whom have indicated they will never vote yes on any proposal that doesn't bring them to industry pay "parity" on day 1.
[/quote

There would be no pay cut, but a smaller raise in years 1 and 2 for example, then a large jump up. In my humble opinion, most pilots are realistic enough to except that.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 96, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1609 times:

Fascinating item posted this evening on the excellent Dallas Morning News airline blog - a letter purportedly from an AA pilot paints a fascinating, detailed picture of where things apparently stand right now with the company and the union. APA sent out a blast to members tonight essentially confirming pretty much everything that's in this letter.

Interestingly, the letter's author appears to be implying that management may now "get it," but that APA leadership has thus far not displayed the "courage" to bring this contract across the finish line and send it to members. The APA statement referred to the information being "currently in the public domain," and wanting to "prevent any misinformation" - seems someone within APA has leaked the info to put pressure on the Board and negotiating committee ...

Several particularly notable elements of the alleged near-deal:

* Scope, as expected, is now the main element separating the two sides, with APA wanting to cap regionals at 76 seats/86K lbs MTOW, while the company wants to go up to 79 seats/93K lbs MTOW - unfortunately, it sounds like AA has its eye on the CRJ900 (probably for commonality with the CRJ700), as 79 seats happens to be precisely Bombardier's advertised 2-class (F9Y70) CRJ900 configuration and a 93K MTOW would give them flexibility if/when the CRJ900 is improved

*** Official APA summation on scope: "APA willing to allow 76-seat with 86k weight limit (same as Delta); Management wants 79-seat jets, with 86k limit for current aircraft but no weight limit for CRJ700/900, EMB 170.175 or MRJ70/90 (same as June tentative agreement)"

* APA wants 100% furlough protection (company apprently currently offering 95% or 90% in a merger)

* AA has agreed to move the A319 into the same pay band as the 737 and MD80 - I wonder what that will do to the economics of that jet

* AA still wants a 6-year deal, but has agreed to higher wage increases up-front and in principle to a modification to the "industry standard" wage adjustment at DOS+36 months (year 3) that guarantees a minimum 16% raise, and to more heavily weight the comparative wages of Delta and United and less the wages of USAirways East/West (yet again, the irony here is incredible)

* On the above 3-year "industry adjustment," the company is still not totally agreed as to how the adjustment would be calculated, as they want to avoid AA's widebody captains being the highest - yes, the highest - paid in the U.S. after the adjustment

* The pilots would still get 13.5% equity in the emerged company, and would still have the right to protest management compensation (although I'm not sure how effective union protests would be anyway)

Much to ponder, including:

* Where this perhaps-soon-to-be-deal might go
* Whether it would/will pass
* What impact it would have on whether AMR emerges independent or merged
* What Horton's agreeing to these terms may or may not say about his confidence of emerging standalone
* What these terms might do to the economics of a standalone post-bankruptcy AMR
* What effect it will have on the "me-too" clauses for the TWU groups and flight attendants

[Edited 2012-11-05 19:37:45]

User currently offlineBarryH From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

This, to all but 5% of AA's existing pilots.

Quoting commavia (Reply 96):
* APA wants 100% furlough protection (company apprently currently offering 95% or 90% in a merger)

Kind of makes the below a minor issue; especially with a couple of seats and pounds of differnce between the two positions. I know that there's the risk of AA eventually running a 79-seat operation that's larger than their existing narrow body operation thus stunting future mainline employment (and APA particpation BTW) but the necessity and liklihood of that happening are incredibly slim. The loss of control over the services and overall travel experience passengers receive is a more logical reason not to do it than a scope clause. And with competitive pay, rules, and benefits to UA and DL what's the need?

Quoting commavia (Reply 96):
*** Official APA summation on scope: "APA willing to allow 76-seat with 86k weight limit (same as Delta); Management wants 79-seat jets, with 86k limit for current aircraft but no weight limit for CRJ700/900, EMB 170.175 or MRJ70/90 (same as June tentative agreement)"

AA's concern over this is legitimate and requires a non-linear application of the three-year bump. What percentage of AA pilots fall in to this category as they'd obviously like as much as they could get. Are there enough of them to tank a "yes" vote on the TA?

Quoting commavia (Reply 96):
* On the above 3-year "industry adjustment," the company is still not totally agreed as to how the adjustment would be calculated, as they want to avoid AA's widebody captains being the highest - yes, the highest - paid in the U.S. after the adjustment


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 98, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1578 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 96):

Fascinating item posted this evening on the excellent Dallas Morning News airline blog - a letter purportedly from an AA pilot paints a fascinating, detailed picture of where things apparently stand right now with the company and the union.

Fascinating! (x2!)


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13263 posts, RR: 100
Reply 99, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1595 times:
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Quoting commavia (Reply 66):
I suspect the company will be more willing to move on pure scope - i.e., regional jets - and probably towards the Delta/United model. AA badly needs a sub-100-seat jet, APA knows it, and the two sides should be able to work something out on that.

It looks like that is happening:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 82):
- Scope: 79-seat jets (Delta, 76-seat jets, 86k max MTOW)

I'm curious on the terms... (max number, MTOW, etc.)

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 54):
The guidance is a industry standard contract, which by definition should be fair for both sides.

Except AMR is in bankruptcy. Generally to pull out, costs must be a little below industry.

Quoting commavia (Reply 84):
I think it will mean little to some APA members who are already threatening to "burn the place down." As I said - sad, sad, sad.

That is why I chose to fly B6 for Thanksgiving instead of 1st on AA. I was surprised how economical 1st on AA was LAX-BOS, but 'schedule risk' made it a non-starter.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 93):
Our goal is to reach an agreement on these points and present a final product to the APA Board of Directors at some point this week.

   I would be shocked if it was that early. A good shocked though.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBDL757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1591 times:

I know this has been touched on a little but can any clarify how much the codesharing will be allowed? Both domestically and internationally as well. I remember reading that AA mgmt wanted a lot of domestic codesharing with B6 and Alaska and I'm sure the APA wants to limit that as much as possible.

Also, slightly off topic, once all or the majority of the new aircraft deliveries take place how many planes will make up the fleet? They're taking on a lot of new aircraft but are retiring MD-80s, 762s, and some 763s at the same time so I'm wondering where they will stand when all is said and done.


User currently offlinecrAAzy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 800 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1569 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Just curious as to any provisions for profit sharing with the new contract. Anyone have any info?

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25768 posts, RR: 50
Reply 102, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

AA and APA have reached an AIP.

Apparently the company agreed to APA's comprehensive counter-proposal.

Next steps is to have the agreement drafted, the APA board to approve it, and then send it out for membership vote.

American Airlines and its pilots’ union reach an “agreement in principle”
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...ch-an-agreement-in-principle.html/

Kudos to all parties   

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 103, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1596 times:

Yes, we have a TA. It looked like things were going down hill and this afternoon the APA board voted 13-2 to send APA's last best final offer to AA. AA management accepted. We hope to hear the details later this evening.

User currently offlinedavidCA From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 69 posts, RR: 4
Reply 104, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1582 times:

Congratulations! I hope it's a deal that the pilots are able to ratify and that keeps AA competitive.

User currently offlineflyfree727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1571 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 103):
We hope to hear the details later this evening.

I," too" anxiously await to hear the details!! congrats on reaching a deal!!

AA ORD


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25768 posts, RR: 50
Reply 106, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1526 times:

Voting began on Friday with results due December 7th.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
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