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How Are AA GA And FAs Reacting To Slow Operation?  
User currently offlinetonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1014 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4669 times:

How are the AA gate agents and FAs responding or reacting to the slow operations?

Has anoyone seen their reaction or if there are any AA GA/FAs here, can you provide some insight?

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedynamo12 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4641 times:

I'd add the mechanics to this. I'd hate to be a mechanic fixing planes AA pilots fly!

First guy spills the coffee on the seat, next guy delays the plane till the seat can be replaced. Flights flown out of trim etc.

I'm just hoping the abuse isn't too bad, pilots will lose if they push the planes into a dangerous situation / accident.


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2558 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

Quoting dynamo12 (Reply 1):
I'm just hoping the abuse isn't too bad, pilots will lose if they push the planes into a dangerous situation / accident.

Don't ever think that the pilots for a single instant would compromise safety. I don't fly for AA, but you have to remember that it's their butts in the seats too! They would be the first to arrive at the scene of an accident, and no pilot wants to do that.

Yes, the AA pilots are frustrated beyond belief at the tactics of management. Expecting the lion's share of cuts to be made by the pilot group is not fair, especially considering the give-backs already completed by the APA. And the truth is that during normal times pilots will often let little maintenance items go if they are close to departure time if it doesn't affect the safety of flight. Technically, they are supposed to report every single little problem before push - even something like a burned out light bulb. All the pilots are doing right now is following the letter of the law. Don't like it? Change the rules. Otherwise remember that the LAST thing any pilot would do is place himself or his passengers in any dangerous situation.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlinetonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1014 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4559 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
Otherwise remember that the LAST thing any pilot would do is place himself or his passengers in any dangerous situation.

HAL, I agree. I haven't once questioned the safety on AA or the pilots putting the life of any passenger in danger.

I'm interested to see what the other colleagues are thinking of all this. How I express this, despite AA Mgmt and Pilots conflict, is it a total DISRESPECT to their customers.

My family flies AA on a daily basis, my parents (66 and 70 years old) on this trip, having to deal with a 22 hour delay then 12 hour layover. Today another 2 hour delay. Now tell me if this is not a complete disrespect to customers?


User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 906 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4447 times:

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 3):

AA flight 98 diverted twice today, first for a medical and then smoke in the cabin. I'm sure the pilots caused the medical and then lit something on fire to fill the cabin with smoke so they could make 2 emergency landings in one day.

The FA's don't get paid if their flight is cancelled. Also, if their flight is delayed one day and they have to be pulled from their next trip due to illegal rest, they don't get paid.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1523 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4175 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 4):

Please tell me you're being facetious when you accuse pilots of faking an emergency and then actually lighting something on fire to cause another one. In-flight fires are probably one of the worst situations that could possibly happen on a plane, there's no way they would cause something like that. Pilots also have to fill out a decent amount of paperwork (err, online form) anytime an abnormality like that happens. Again, I'm hoping you're joking but if not, all I can do is shake my head.


User currently offlinenorcal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4126 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
Yes, the AA pilots are frustrated beyond belief at the tactics of management. Expecting the lion's share of cuts to be made by the pilot group is not fair, especially considering the give-backs already completed by the APA. And the truth is that during normal times pilots will often let little maintenance items go if they are close to departure time if it doesn't affect the safety of flight. Technically, they are supposed to report every single little problem before push - even something like a burned out light bulb. All the pilots are doing right now is following the letter of the law. Don't like it? Change the rules. Otherwise remember that the LAST thing any pilot would do is place himself or his passengers in any dangerous situation.

If pilots flew to the letter of the law every flight, hardly any flight would ever leave on time. The FAA requires everything, no matter how minor to be written up. There are minor things that are ignored or discovered later under normal circumstances. Normal circumstances being you have a contract that protects you from the FAA to a certain extent for these minor things.

With out a contract you are on your own unless the company decides to go to bat for you, but let's be honest AMR hasn't shown much respect for their pilots. If it was my ticket on the line I'd be doing everything I can to protect it.

The FAA can be some really big sticklers for details. They recently fined ASA/ExpressJet $400,000 for not signing off a page in the maintenance log of one of their aircraft. It was approximately $8,000 per flight for a signature. The work was done, there simply wasn't a signature on the page.

http://www.nycaviation.com/2012/09/f...h-400000-safety-fine/#.UGwtOULIbao

If that were AMR and the company traced a simple signature oversight, that as a pilot you are supposed to check, back to you then you better believe they'd want to fire you for costing them so much money. With out contract protection they could, and that's the difference between 9/16 and 9/17. Prior to the contract being tossed the pilots would have been protected for something like that. That is the kind of stuff AA pilots are facing right now and they have the added bonus of increased FAA oversight.


User currently offlineCRFLY From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2004, 197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

I flew on AA last week and miracoulous both flights to MIA were on-time...Last time I flew AA was last year and that's why I decided to avoid AA at all costs, as all my 6 flights were late, with very rude people, especially FA (NYC base crew by the way)... This time the attitude was different, a big improve since last time, as ground staff and flight attendants were very friendly and helpful, and really following costumer service procedures and really showing up what is showing on the welcome video "we are glad you are here!" The downside was that although my both flights were on-time, the rebooking line at MIA for missconections was around 1,000 people who were stranded because they lost their connectios... Some people were on the phone and they said they have been waiting for an AA costumer service operator for more than 1 hour... Short story: Everybody is worried about the slowdown and the gound personnel and the flight attendants are trying to make it up for the passengers, but it might be too late... Good luck AA!


With Age comes Wisdom...
User currently offlinesq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1633 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3790 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
Technically, they are supposed to report every single little problem before push - even something like a burned out light bulb. All the pilots are doing right now is following the letter of the law. Don't like it? Change the rules. Otherwise remember that the LAST thing any pilot would do is place himself or his passengers in any dangerous situation.

Also, is it true (think I read it somewhere) that since AA is in Chapter 11, pilots (along with the airline as a whole) are under increased scrutiny? And that this happened when UA et al where in Chapter 11 as well? If so that might explain why AA pilots, especially since they are flying without the protection of a contract.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 5):
Please tell me you're being facetious when you accuse pilots of faking an emergency and then actually lighting something on fire to cause another one. In-flight fires are probably one of the worst situations that could possibly happen on a plane, there's no way they would cause something like that. Pilots also have to fill out a decent amount of paperwork (err, online form) anytime an abnormality like that happens. Again, I'm hoping you're joking but if not, all I can do is shake my head.

I'm pretty sure he was being completely facetious.



Keep Discovering
User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 634 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

Quoting dynamo12 (Reply 1):
I'm just hoping the abuse isn't too bad, pilots will lose if they push the planes into a dangerous situation / accident.

While I don't think even for a second that the pilots have been abusing the planes, I think that a good risk manager under the current circumstances should be VERY worried.

For one thing, when you make emotional decisions you are more prone to error. When you change your routine, you again are more prone to error.

And even if none of this were a problem, if AA had an accident, even if it had nothing to do with the pilots (and were a purely mechanical failure), the airline would be toast. That's because the flying public wouldn't ask the right questions and make the right distinctions. They would simply add 1 +1 by equating the accident to be a byproduct of the slow down, and bookings would go to zero.

So the real danger in my opinion of this action is that if there were to be an accident, it would almost certainly force the company into Ch7 immediately as the creditors wouldn't want to ride out the prolonged losses.


User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1523 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 8):
I'm pretty sure he was being completely facetious.

I'd assume so, but you never know with some people on here.  
Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 8):
Also, is it true (think I read it somewhere) that since AA is in Chapter 11, pilots (along with the airline as a whole) are under increased scrutiny?

This is true. I can't say much for the AA side of the house but on the MQ side, we're getting significantly increased scrutiny regarding pretty much every facet of the operation.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3463 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
All the pilots are doing right now is following the letter of the law.

Are you saying that the sick calls and the writeups have noting to do with their actions in the last few months/


User currently offlineSJUSXM From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
Yes, the AA pilots are frustrated beyond belief at the tactics of management. Expecting the lion's share of cuts to be made by the pilot group is not fair,

Right, the lions share of the cuts. So the 17% cuts that the FAs accepted, the TWU accepted, The non-union employees were given, that management was given, and the pilots were offered is unequal? Can you do math? Management asked AA pilots to accept EQUAL cost cuts, everybody at 17%. The original ask was 20%, negotiated down to 17%. Everybody else accepted 17%, except the pilots. Because they did not accept 17%, DUE TO THE LAW, the 20% was imposed. After the original submission of an 1113 motion, AMR CANNOT BY LAW go back and ask for the T/A that had 17% in it. Plus the pilots rejected that, it's their own fault that they are dealing with 3% deeper cuts than the rest of the company. Granted there are many issues related to reasoning behind that, but if they had voted yes, they would have the same cuts that ALL 65,000 other employees are getting.



AT7, ER3, ER4, ER5, CR7, E70, E75, F100, M82, M83, 722, 732, 738, 752, 762, 763, AB6, 320, 321, 772, 77W
User currently offlineN737AA From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
Expecting the lion's share of cuts to be made by the pilot group is not fair, especially considering the give-backs already completed by the APA.

Ummm...The cuts were basically the same across the board (as a percentage number) and no pilots would be layed off, infact the additional flying that was to be started as a result of the savings required bringing back many pilots and possibly hiring more.

Your information is not correct, or maybe it was an uninformed statement.

N737AA


User currently offlineripcordd From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1149 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3178 times:

I have seen turtles make it to gates faster than AA planes are taxing....Ok I get it you want to make a point and you did but your actions are putting this airline in risk of closing its doors. MNGMT sucks but find another way to get a change in leadership cause all people will remember is what the pilots did in the last couple of weeks not what or lack of what the managment did over the last 10 years.

User currently offlineN737AA From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

Funny that Mgt is getting blamed for not filing bankrupcy back in 2003.....and it is probably an accurate thought. The cuts made back then were not deep enough. Yes I lost pay and benifits too, but for the long term survival it should have gone deeper. Instead of making more wage and benifit cuts, flying should have been shrunk and the payrolls clipped more than they were.

N737AA


User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 634 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Quoting N737AA (Reply 15):
Funny that Mgt is getting blamed for not filing bankrupcy back in 2003.....and it is probably an accurate thought. The cuts made back then were not deep enough. Yes I lost pay and benifits too, but for the long term survival it should have gone deeper. Instead of making more wage and benifit cuts, flying should have been shrunk and the payrolls clipped more than they were.

N737AA

I used to be a staunch defender of AA in this debate. I thought it was the right thing to do not to go to C11 until they absolutely had to for the employees' sake. The recent display of vitriol from the pilots and complete thanklessness and lack of graciousness on their part has me wishing for the first time that they had pulled the trigger when all the other majors did in 2004, say. That would have meant terminated pensions, far bigger paycuts and much tougher workrules, far less restrictive scope, and the pilots would have had to endure it for 8 years by now. From what I can tell, the pilots have shown zero appreciation for what they have had for 8 years that their peers lost and no longer had.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12899 posts, RR: 100
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2741 times:
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Pilots need to find a way of making their point without disrespecting coworkers and passengers as much as they are. I understand CYA, but all the other delays are just annoying. Coworkers of mine who *never* would have considered DL, UA, or WN are now flying them.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 3):
How I express this, despite AA Mgmt and Pilots conflict, is it a total DISRESPECT to their customers.

That needs to be remembered.

To all:
I understand pilots are unhappy and covering their butts. But slow taxi times? Doing anything possible to delay (e.g., not going to get their own bags), etc.

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 12):
Everybody else accepted 17%, except the pilots. Because they did not accept 17%, DUE TO THE LAW, the 20% was imposed.

Oops. And other provisions were thrown out too. Why did the pilots turn down that contract?

20% vs. 17%... Oh well. If AA pilots are so good, have the pilots post their metrics versus the competition.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 14):
all people will remember is what the pilots did in the last couple of weeks

   Remember, while the mechanics took the blame, the Eastern situation was set up by management and the pilots.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 3):
My family flies AA on a daily basis

Wow, you either have one big family, or a family of pilots and flight attendants, which if that were the case, I wouldn't want to be at the dinner table at your house.


User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 16):
The recent display of vitriol from the pilots and complete thanklessness and lack of graciousness on their part has me wishing for the first time that they had pulled the trigger when all the other majors did in 2004, say. That would have meant terminated pensions, far bigger paycuts and much tougher workrules, far less restrictive scope, and the pilots would have had to endure it for 8 years by now. From what I can tell, the pilots have shown zero appreciation for what they have had for 8 years that their peers lost and no longer had.

So you are saying you WANT pilots to endure worse working conditions than they've ever seen before? How about wishing the airline stayed healthy and they people up front, and AA employees everywhere could avoid this mess? The cuts AA have made are far beyond the cuts AA pilot's peers saw when their companies were in bankruptcy. You're essentially asking the pilots to be happy because they didn't give as much as everyone else. But they gave huge concessions in pay, overall compensation, and benefits so what exactly should they be so grateful for? That the knife only went so deep? Concede 40% of your pay, a sizable chunk of the benefits you once enjoyed and watch several thousand of your peers get furloughed or let go completely while being lied to by your management (shared sacrifices, anyone?) and tell us how gracious you are.


Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):

Pilots need to find a way of making their point without disrespecting coworkers and passengers as much as they are. I understand CYA, but all the other delays are just annoying.

How? We don't even have the luxury of fighting with one hand behind tied behind our back. Both hands have been cuffed, bound and then cut off between bankruptcy laws being stacked against labor, and the RLA. So what would you have pilots do? I'm sorry that you're annoyed by the actions of the pilots but they have more pressing concerns, like changing work rules, increased oversight and little to no protection anymore. When push comes to shove, our certificates will always take precedence over you not being annoyed.

[Edited 2012-10-04 10:55:39]


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 634 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2489 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 19):
So you are saying you WANT pilots to endure worse working conditions than they've ever seen before?

No. That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that it is classless to bash AA management as greedy losers when the pilots have benefited the MOST of any work group from management not choosing the nuclear option in 2003/4/5. So would they have rather gone belly-up in 2004 have the pensions terminated etc or would they rather have had what they've had and now make concessions to raise productivity? It's really not a difficult question. I am not advocating the pilots to accede to working for slave wages...I am asking them to be reasonable.

Pilots have skills. Very deep skills. Very expensive skills. So they should be paid well. You'll never hear me contest that. But what I am saying is that the world has changed. Most people in the private sector work more hours for less money now than they did in 2000. Period. If you're lucky (like me), you work more hours for more money. But virtually nobody works less hours or equal hours for more money. And that is ultimately the impasse in the current negotiation...remember? They will vote "no" on any "concessionary" contract offer.

And on the pay front, I think we did the math not too long ago:

A 12+ year 738 FO on AA makes $113/hour. At 80 hours per month, that equals roughly $110k per year. On top of that, AA will contribute 14-16% into the 401k which would equal another $15k per year. That then totals roughly $125k in cash comp and I am not including per diems and all that stuff. Certainly not a huge salary, but considering the benefits are very good (compared to most of us who don't work for Fortune 100s), the real value of the pay is far higher, still.

A 12+ year 777 Cpt on AA makes $205/hour. At 80 hours per month, that equals roughly $197k per year. On top of that, AA will contribute 14-16% into the 401k which would equal another $28k per year. That then totals roughly $225k in cash comp and I am not including per diems and all that stuff. Again, certainly not a huge salary, but considering the benefits are very good (compared to most of us who don't work for Fortune 100s) (retiree medical benefits and access is unheard of in my industry for example), the real value of the pay is far higher, still.

I think the pilots have to look at the totality of the picture in an objective way and look around what their peers outside of the industry are getting paid, and what kind of benefits they receive.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 19):
How about wishing the airline stayed healthy and they people up front, and AA employees everywhere could avoid this mess?

I wish that. Truly. But AA can't give everyone Ponies and unicorns. The world changed in 2001 and again in 2007/2008. It's a different place now. I can wish all I want, but that doesn't make a credit bubble go away. The airlines are victims of the bursting of the credit bubble and there's no wishing in the world that can isolate the pilots from that reality.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 19):
The cuts AA have made are far beyond the cuts AA pilot's peers saw when their companies were in bankruptcy.

I disagree. Feel free to substantiate your claim. Which of the other carriers offered pay raises in bk? Which carriers froze their pension plans vs which terminated them. Which carriers were employee owned and nuked their employees' entire contributions? Hint...it wasn't AA. And then again, 2004 wasn't post-GFR.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 19):
You're essentially asking the pilots to be happy because they didn't give as much as everyone else. But they gave huge concessions in pay, overall compensation, and benefits so what exactly should they be so grateful for? That the knife only went so deep? Concede 40% of your pay, a sizable chunk of the benefits you once enjoyed and watch several thousand of your peers get furloughed or let go completely while being lied to by your management (shared sacrifices, anyone?) and tell us how gracious you are.

In essence, yes. Perspective matters. Sometimes you have to count your blessings, face reality, take a paycut and then negotiate for more when the circumstances are right. The pilots have done the opposite.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 19):
How? We don't even have the luxury of fighting with one hand behind tied behind our back.

For one thing, the pilots could go to work for the Middle East carriers who apparently hire US pilots by the boatload at absurdly high pay rates. By all means, there's one option. I also keep hearing how business savvy all pilots are and that is of course another option, Leave the piloting profession and fend for yourself in the real world...without unions, without protections, without the option of sabotaging your clients. Good luck.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4426 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2419 times:

Quoting tonytifao (Thread starter):
How are the AA gate agents and FAs responding or reacting to the slow operations?

Has anoyone seen their reaction

To get back to your original question...

I flew AA 277 MIA-LAX in F last Saturday. We were delayed at the gate about 1 1/2 hours. Flight atttendants (and purser, along with the Captain) kept us frequently updated on the status of the delay (we endured the whole delay sitting on the plane).

They adjusted their inflight service accordingly and served us the warm nuts while we were still at the gate. Once airborne, I would classify the service from the FAs in our cabin as "excellent" and the flight attendant that was serving our side of the cabin came up to each of us shortly before landing and thanked us personally for flying with AA.


User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2342 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 20):
What I am saying is that it is classless to bash AA management as greedy losers when the pilots have benefited the MOST of any work group from management not choosing the nuclear option in 2003/4/5. So would they have rather gone belly-up in 2004 have the pensions terminated etc or would they rather have had what they've had and now make concessions to raise productivity? It's really not a difficult question. I am not advocating the pilots to accede to working for slave wages...I am asking them to be reasonable.

Yet AA management bashing the pilot group by blaming them for just about everything is acceptable? I'm continuously astounded at the levels to which folks on this site will go to defend airline executives. I'm not saying the pilots are perfect, but people conveniently forget that management is ultimately in charge and responsible for the success or failure of a company. Assuming the pilots benefited the most is a bit disingenuous to the pilot group. They made more, but the job commands more. I recall a post on here comparing the jobs to those in a hospital. Each is key to accomplishing a goal, but doctors can and should be better paid than an orderly, much like pilots can and should be paid more than other employee groups.

I do agree that there should be a more reasonable approach taken, but that is a two way street. Management too needs to approach with a more reasonable solution than they have to this point.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 20):
Pilots have skills. Very deep skills. Very expensive skills. So they should be paid well. You'll never hear me contest that. But what I am saying is that the world has changed. Most people in the private sector work more hours for less money now than they did in 2000. Period. If you're lucky (like me), you work more hours for more money. But virtually nobody works less hours or equal hours for more money. And that is ultimately the impasse in the current negotiation...remember? They will vote "no" on any "concessionary" contract offer.

That is their right, they've worked under a concessionary contract for several years, it isn't their fault management bungled up the airline so badly that they went into chapter 11. Blaming labor has become a convenient excuse for bad leaders to cover up their mistakes. You don't have to tell pilots the world has changed, anybody still flying for AA was part of that change. It would be insulting to assume we live in some bubble in which we believe we're the only ones suffering or taking cuts. We're well aware but that also does not mean we're going to roll over and accept what is coming.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 20):
A 12+ year 738 FO on AA makes $113/hour. At 80 hours per month, that equals roughly $110k per year. On top of that, AA will contribute 14-16% into the 401k which would equal another $15k per year. That then totals roughly $125k in cash comp and I am not including per diems and all that stuff. Certainly not a huge salary, but considering the benefits are very good (compared to most of us who don't work for Fortune 100s), the real value of the pay is far higher, still.

A 12+ year 777 Cpt on AA makes $205/hour. At 80 hours per month, that equals roughly $197k per year. On top of that, AA will contribute 14-16% into the 401k which would equal another $28k per year. That then totals roughly $225k in cash comp and I am not including per diems and all that stuff. Again, certainly not a huge salary, but considering the benefits are very good (compared to most of us who don't work for Fortune 100s) (retiree medical benefits and access is unheard of in my industry for example), the real value of the pay is far higher, still.

I think the pilots have to look at the totality of the picture in an objective way and look around what their peers outside of the industry are getting paid, and what kind of benefits they receive.


The nature of the job and the industry does not allow a fair comparison between pilots and jobs that are "outside the industry." The jobs outside the industry are far too different to bear any meaningful impact on what a pilot can/should make. Further, there is more to it than pay, you make large assumptions that every pilot works 80hrs or more. AA has a lower minimum guarantee (that is gone under the terms management has imposed) that affects the bottom line unless you choose to be away from your family quite a bit more each month. Not all pilots have the luxury of being able to spend that much time away from home. Spare me, please, the lines about how we chose this job. We're aware. We also chose it when times were different, and now most are too far in to make leaving a viable option. That being said, a reasonable balance between work and time off can afford a pilot a good quality of life. The terms imposed by AMR take away a lot of the soft pay and benefits you mention.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 20):
I disagree. Feel free to substantiate your claim. Which of the other carriers offered pay raises in bk? Which carriers froze their pension plans vs which terminated them. Which carriers were employee owned and nuked their employees' entire contributions? Hint...it wasn't AA. And then again, 2004 wasn't post-GFR.


Fair enough, but a quick google search leads me to quite a number of articles discussing UA, US and DL pensions being defaulted on only to be saved by the government, albeit at a significant loss for the employees. UA moved to, and was granted permission to terminate their pension plans. My own discussions with pilots of these airlines has left me plenty informed about the concessionary contracts they work under, some to this day. I'm sure a google search will reveal the nature of these contracts if you wish to check. UA is still fighting for a new contract, now several years past the amendable date meaning the pilots are still working under a concessionary contact despite being years past when it should have been renegotiated.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 20):
For one thing, the pilots could go to work for the Middle East carriers who apparently hire US pilots by the boatload at absurdly high pay rates. By all means, there's one option. I also keep hearing how business savvy all pilots are and that is of course another option, Leave the piloting profession and fend for yourself in the real world...without unions, without protections, without the option of sabotaging your clients. Good luck.

I suggest you research the work rules at some of these carriers. They make AA's bankruptcy terms look like the golden days of aviation with somewhat better pay. There is a lot of concern that these carriers are riding a bubble and that long term success will be challenging for them to come by. Its an awful expensive and risky proposition to undertake. Further, most, if not all of these pilots have several years at AA and have families and roots down where they are. Moving your family half way around the planet and starting anew at a foreign carrier isn't as viable as you make it sound. Unfortunately the pilots are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. By the way, what you're seeing AA do is exactly why we have unions to begin with. They're a necessary evil.

[Edited 2012-10-04 15:20:07]


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2307 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 20):
In essence, yes. Perspective matters. Sometimes you have to count your blessings, face reality, take a paycut and then negotiate for more when the circumstances are right. The pilots have done the opposite.
AA pilots accepted pay and benefit cuts several years ago, along with relaxed work rules. Not sure why you're saying they did the opposite?

[Edited 2012-10-04 15:32:10]


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 4):
AA flight 98 diverted twice today, first for a medical and then smoke in the cabin. I'm sure the pilots caused the medical and then lit something on fire to fill the cabin with smoke so they could make 2 emergency landings in one day.

No one would suggest that. If there were 10 diversions a day on average before, and 40 since the slowdown started, there would still on average be 10 legitimate diversions. Does not mean though that the other 30 are also legitimate.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 16):
From what I can tell, the pilots have shown zero appreciation for what they have had for 8 years that their peers lost and no longer had.

Bingo! And very succinctly stated.


25 N737AA : Very few in the represented labor groups do, they all want what they had before 2003. Well thats part of the job, if you can not or do not want to be
26 futureualpilot : Somebody better let the majority of pilots on every seniority list out there know that they're getting hosed, if what you say is true. We're all doin
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