Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
EY Boss: AB Shall Form Alliance With AF  
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 719 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12162 times:

Sorry if this should already have been discussed in another thread, I couldn't find anything.

According to Süddeutsche Zeitung, a German quality newspaper, Etihad boss Hogan intends to push Air Berlin (of which 29 percent are owned by EY) into a alliance with AF, aiming at codeshare agreements. Hogan expects AB to make an offer to AF, "oneworld comes second", he is quoted. For him, the big alliances are not a model of the future, but rather such bilaterals. Also according to him, the AB management (possible a post-Mehdorn one) seems to be willing to follow.

Any thoughts and comments? Would it be possible, AB staying a oneworld member but codesharing with AF?

source (German only): www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/neuer...are-ansage-an-air-berlin-1.1486221


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1841 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12067 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Thread starter):
Would it be possible, AB staying a oneworld member but codesharing with AF?

yes of course. All alliances are permitting this and there are multiple examples of this. However, if it is an extensive code-share and collaboration agreement between AB and AF, I don't see the point of AB staying in OW. Add to this QR in OW, QR being one of the biggest competitor of EY the owner of AB...


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12031 times:

I knew the EY investment would become a problem. Its time for IAG to step in and purchase a big block of AB.


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11973 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Thread starter):

Alliance's are of the past... Airlines are now solely relying on establishing stand alone agreements with airlines which suit their needs... QF and EK is an example with QF dropping their JSA with BA...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11906 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Thread starter):
Etihad boss Hogan intends to push Air Berlin (of which 29 percent are owned by EY) into a alliance with AF, aiming at codeshare agreements. Hogan expects AB to make an offer to AF, "oneworld comes second", he is quoted

And do what? What does an AF/AB tie up do for anyone? It's further confirmation that EY's purchase of AB was not a bright idea and they have no idea what they're doing with it.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8702 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11906 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 3):
Alliance's are of the past... Airlines are now solely relying on establishing stand alone agreements with airlines which suit their needs...

It happens a couple of times and suddenly, "alliances are a thing of the past"? You're joking, aren't you?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5429 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11627 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
What does an AF/AB tie up do for anyone?

I have no idea whatsoever. Maybe a more comprehensive long haul network via CDG, but I honestly cannot see that being too successful. If anything it sounds more like Hogan is flicking his nose at BA for getting cosy with QR by encouraging the airline that BA sponsored into OW to turn its back on them.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1816 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11382 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting EK413 (Reply 3):
Alliance's are of the past... Airlines are now solely relying on establishing stand alone agreements with airlines which suit their needs... QF and EK is an example with QF dropping their JSA with BA...

I agree in sense. For some airlines joining an alliance may actually restrict their options......multiple bi-laterals allow smaller carriers to get some of the benefits of an alliance without the ties.

EI for example: codeshare with BA, UA, KL,EY. 3 alliances and 1 'standalone'...... all on separate route so that they don't overlap.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11262 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 5):
It happens a couple of times and suddenly, "alliances are a thing of the past"? You're joking, aren't you?

No I'm not joking! Who said it happened once...???
BA/QR are in talks... AA/EK are In talks... AB/EY... NZ/VA... VA/DL... VA/SQ... Shall I continue...?

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8702 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11093 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 8):
Who said it happened once...???

Errr... nobody did. Would you please wake me up when the first of the current alliances actually starts dissolving without a replacement?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11077 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 8):
Who said it happened once...???

Errr... nobody did. Would you please wake me up when the first of the current alliances actually starts dissolving without a replacement?

Not sure which planet your from but did I even mention a word about the alliances dissolving?!@$@!?

Quoting EK413 (Reply 3):
Alliance's are of the past...



It's time you wake up and read carefully...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8702 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10879 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 10):
Not sure which planet your from but did I even mention a word about the alliances dissolving?!@$@!?

My point is that I don't see how alliances might be be a thing of the past if they're growing as opposed to shrinking. The dissolution of one would, on the other hand, support your point that they are.

As for the planet issue, I'm from the third rock from the sun. And you?

Quoting EK413 (Reply 10):
It's time you wake up and read carefully...

Nah, it's really rather late. I'll leave the first part for tomorrow.  



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10056 times:

Reuters has an English translation of the most important parts of the sueddeutsche article:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ad-airberlin-idUSL6E8L3J0H20121003

Plus, there is an aviationweek article; the main statement:

;Etihad Airways would like to see its European affiliate Air Berlin eventually included in the wide-ranging code-share agreement that Etihad is negotiating with Air France-KLM. “If there is an opportunity, we would be keen to see [the inclusion of Air Berlin] happen,” Etihad CEO James Hogan told Aviation Week at the airline’s headquarters in Abu Dhabi. The code-share negotiations with Air France-KLM have been “very good and are continuing,” Hogan says.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_10_02_2012_p01-01-502024.xml



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9312 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9360 times:

Nice "quality" newspaper, this "Sueddeutsche Zeitung". Just learned that Etihad's hub is located at Doha.

Nice investor as well, who despite having only a bit more than a blocking minority, claims to call the shots at AB by telling them to write off their recent investment in OW in favour of couchez avec AF.

Now, can we trust the quality newspaper when it speaks about "allianz" (alliance) with AF/KL but little about code-share (except via DOH, OK they mean AUH, I guess).

AF and KL have managed very well to feed traffic from numerous German ciities to their hubs, what do they need AB for? OK, once could say that about BA as well, all three comb the German market since the early 50s, long before LH was re-invented-.

Interesting is, that the three major Gulf carriers ponder the valkue of alliances in first place. Which value do alliances have to their business model? That may be different for a Europe based carrier.

Ifat the nend pof the day, if AB can stay in OW and gets a couple of code shares on AF KL flights and vv, why not.

BTW, Mr mehdorn has, from the start of his engagement at AB, a contract which terminates in 2013.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 402 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9236 times:

And this comes a day after Air France announced it was decreasing capacity to Germany.

http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/...ege-nach-deutschland-a-859200.html (in German)

According to the article, they will drop CDG-LEJ and LYS-HAM. MRS-HAM and TLS-TXL are going to be seasonal and LYS-STR will be reduced to twice daily from 3x.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9159 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
Nice investor as well, who despite having only a bit more than a blocking minority, claims to call the shots at AB by telling them to write off their recent investment in OW in favour of couchez avec AF.

It's not only the 29 percent share, but also the $255 million loan granted to AB. So to speak, AB could only survive because of the EY investment. Therefore, it is only legitimate that EY expects AB to do them a favor.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9312 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8789 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 15):
Therefore, it is only legitimate that EY expects AB to do them a favor.

You're not doing favors in business. A CEO who does "favors" will be accused of embezzlement (Untreue) quicker than he can spell that word.

EK can certainly send in their wish list for the next supervisory board meeting and we are discussing part of nthat list here, but they do not have a majority and due to the special rquirements in aviation will not have such a majority.

Their constructive involvement in AB is certainly appeciated by other share holders and it is good to learn that AB will turn into a profitable carrier within a foreseeable time.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineyowza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4877 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8288 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):

Errr... nobody did. Would you please wake me up when the first of the current alliances actually starts dissolving without a replacement?

  

Quoting EK413 (Reply 10):
Not sure which planet your from but did I even mention a word about the alliances dissolving?!@$@!?

You've talked of their demise in vague terms above. Just because airlines make arrangements with non-aligned carriers does not make alliances a thing of the past.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
Nice "quality" newspaper, this "Sueddeutsche Zeitung". Just learned that Etihad's hub is located at Doha.

Aviation journalism is as bad in Germany as it is over here I see.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8049 times:

Quoting yowza (Reply 17):
Aviation journalism is as bad in Germany as it is over here I see.

People don't value journalism, so this is what we get!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
Their constructive involvement in AB is certainly appeciated by other share holders and it is good to learn that AB will turn into a profitable carrier within a foreseeable time.

I don't think the EY leadership could manage any carrier outside of the UAE, or any other similarly government-supported/supportive environment. EY might as well kiss that money goodbye and hope the AUH feed from Germany is worth it.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9312 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7533 times:

The EY leadership hs a proven track record outside the UAE. That's not the question.

The point is, that they have a minority share, although they can block certain supervisory board decisions. Such boards however prefer a con-sensus , a broad majority

After all, the AB management can be happy that their shareholder is based in AUH and not in, as was falsely stated, DOH.   I always pity those CV managers....



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7478 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
The point is, that they have a minority share, although they can block certain supervisory board decisions. Such boards however prefer a con-sensus , a broad majority

Thats all well and good, but the Board also recognizes that EY is the only thing keeping AB afloat. EY may not control literally manage the AB, but they hold tremendous sway.

The Board will follow the financing. That the real world.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7444 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
The EY leadership hs a proven track record outside the UAE. That's not the question.

Is it? Ansett, BMI, Gulf Air? I'm not so sure it is.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinemacsog6 From Singapore, joined Jan 2010, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7091 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Carriers have done code-shares outside of their alliances for years. Probably the best example of this is, IMHO, AS who code-shares with almost anyone who asks it would seem. The AA website lists 10 other carriers, outside of AS and their OW affiliates, on which AA miles can be earned.

I am sure there are other examples, but to take this situation (AB/AF) as an indication that alliances are dead is a rather large leap I think. As the crunch continues, I think alliances will become more important as carriers look for ways to cut costs even more while keeping their flag flying in certain locations.



Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13003 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7006 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I find it interesting the anger that a member of an alliance is expanding to shore up their profits. While EY is suggesting this, it is sound business for AB.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 2):
I knew the EY investment would become a problem.

How is this a problem? Expanding a business is usually viewed as a good thing. Is SQ's codeshare with AF a 'problem?' CX doesn't play well with QF, why hasn't that been a problem. In general, OneWorld is not a strong alliance outside of AA/BA and a few other pairings.

Quoting macsog6 (Reply 22):
Carriers have done code-shares outside of their alliances for years.

   If alliances didn't code share outside, they would loose too many members. All alliances do is set up a minimum "playing nice" ground rules. The rest is competition as normal.

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):
Would you please wake me up when the first of the current alliances actually starts dissolving without a replacement?

No one mentioned an alliance dissolving. I see it more as being code shared to irrelevance.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
telling them to write off their recent investment in OW in favour of couchez avec AF.

Why is there any writing off? AB is still in OW. They will just now have more AF feed. Win-win.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9312 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6996 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
Is it? Ansett, BMI, Gulf Air? I'm not so sure it is.

I am a polite person and sometimes the best management canno change matters when the odds or the owners or both are against them.

Quoting macsog6 (Reply 22):
Carriers have done code-shares outside of their alliances for years

yup, OS and LX with LY came to my mind.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 20):
The Board will follow the financing. That the real world.

thats guessing. we will never know since what is discussed cannot go outside.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
25 aloges : *sigh*
26 MaverickM11 : True, so why on earth would EY buy into AB? Starting and growing an airline is relatively easy, especially with the full backing of the government, b
27 lightsaber : Are they growing in market share? My perception is that while the alliance airlines might be growing, more of the aviation growth is going on non-ali
28 PanHAM : where to? AF is feeding their long haul services from German province cities, as does KLM and both do that since the eraly 50s.. Where can AF feed AB
29 aloges : OK, here we go again: you were implying that I had "accused" (for lack of a better term in my vocabulary) someone of mentioning the dissolution of an
30 Post contains links jetlanta : http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...but-may-become-more-divisive-84303
31 lightsaber : AF would feed AB to eastern Europe. AB could feed AF to their much more substantial global network. win-win. This assumption I disagree with. AF and
32 EK413 : I don't need it explained and the point I was making is the fact airlines nowadays explore other avenues and align their operations with non alliance
33 Post contains images aloges : Excellent, I wasn't addressing you anyway. Even better, nobody said that you had. And now, back to the topic. Not necessarily, I was a bit caught up
34 danielkandi : A good example would be Aeroflot and SAS. I recall having bought a ticket online, where there was an SK codeshare between them and the russian carrie
35 SCQ83 : When was the last time a carrier moved from one alliance to another? I can't see the problem with AB moving from Oneworld to SkyTeam. To me, it looks
36 greenwichsud : Interesting artcicle. Thanks for sharing. IMHO if there's anything that I can see eventually falling out of favor, it's the joint ventures. Specifica
37 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Probably CO from Skyteam to Star. Or MX from Star to oneworld. So it could go either way
38 Post contains images lightsaber : Exactly. You have a good point there. However, How much will they cooperate? There is UA/LH levels of cooperation and then QF/CX levels within the al
39 PanHAM : AFKL does that from their own hubs non-stop. Why change at DUS or BER when those destinations are reached direct? Only exception may be VIE since rou
40 PanHAM : Just adding - OW is "not pleased" already because AB feeds ther Asian traffic to EY at AUH. which really is not what the alliance stands for. EX is ce
41 something : Maybe Etihad wants AB flight numbers on AF flights to North and Central America, that they could then market as their own.
42 PanHAM : AB offers North America. On own metal and via AA and BA. I really do not ee any advantage for AB with the AFKL set-up
43 SCQ83 : Own metal? AB does not even fly on its own metal to LHR or MAD, the two largest Oneworld hubs in Europe. BA would take you from Germany to the USA...
44 PanHAM : Last time I checked AB had flights with their 333s to the USA. I call that "own metal". They even fly to MAD.
45 crAAzy : Dream on. We'll never see an AA plane anywhere near the Middle East in our lifetime for multiple reasons. BTW - it's "imminently"
46 something : Slight correction but the A333 are all eco and only used on Hartz 4 routes like CGN-PMI etc. Their A332s go to Fort Myers, Miami, New York, Chicago (
47 PanHAM : U R right, but they use the 333s mainly from DUS IIRC , what was previsouly LTU L10 territory. I have been on one of these once , the 21h45 departure
48 jumpjets : I can see that if AB was not already in an alliance that a relationship with AF/KL/EY would have benefits for them but what I cant get clear in my he
49 Delta777Jet : This is of course all right what you say from the theoretical point of view, but the reality is different and EY may have not that much officially to
50 Post contains images MHG : But the time has not yet come to step in. It´ll possibly happen further down the road ...
51 PanHAM : All that applies to OW as well. There's no difference. I, for instance, have a BA FF card as well as M&M but I do not have skyteam/AFKL. Flying A
52 miaintl : Is there a chance we will ever see AB become a full fledged legacy carrier with flights to asia, latin America etc? I could see BER becoming a major h
53 Post contains links something : Apparently AF/KL and AB signed a codeshare agreement. AF will put AB flight numbers on CDG and ORY flights to Bordeaux, Lyon, Montpellier, Marseilles,
54 PanHAM : delete "major" and replace with "minor". BER has got a lot of ethnic traffic to Russia which makes flights viable, but VIE is better located and AB /
55 lightsaber : Congrats to both. It should help the revenue of all three. Interesting agreement between AF/KL/AB/EY. Lightsaber
56 EK413 : Interesting agreement indeed... Congratulations all 4 carriers... EK413
57 MaverickM11 : ...and VIE struggles to maintain a lot of the Eastern European service that it does. "Interesting" is the right word...I'm not sure what it does for
58 avek00 : I disagree, I expect AA to hit the Middle East from JFK sometime in the next 3-5 years once restructuring is complete and the airline starts to featu
59 SCQ83 : I think the main alliance here is EY-AFKL. EY is years behind EK or QR in their network development in Europe. Sure, even EK has "gaps" (some of them
60 Post contains links Jano : and Czech Airlines http://www.csa.cz/en/portal/quicklinks/eti_coop/eti_coop_new.htm
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Alitalia Form Alliance With Air France! posted Mon Apr 23 2001 03:57:46 by JAL
KL With AF Or BA? What Is The Best Alliance? posted Sun Aug 24 2003 01:07:19 by Jala300600
KLM To Form European Alliance With Air France posted Thu May 22 2003 09:00:08 by Rotate
Qantas To Form Union With Qatar Airways posted Wed Jul 4 2012 04:35:42 by MEA
Help With AF A380 Reg LHR-CDG 29/8 posted Fri Sep 10 2010 02:01:15 by richcandy
IR 747 with AF banner, clarification please? posted Sun Mar 7 2010 13:04:54 by CptRegionalJet
767 History With AF, LH And IB posted Fri Jan 8 2010 13:50:05 by AIR MALTA
DL/NW And Their Partnership With AF/KL At AMS/CDG posted Sat Dec 26 2009 11:40:29 by Gilesdavies
Help With AF A320-111 Schedules Please posted Fri Nov 27 2009 13:15:38 by CodyKDiamond
Alitalia, JV With AF-KLM & Delta By Summer 2010 posted Tue Oct 27 2009 11:10:29 by LIPZ