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Qantas To Keep FRA Until October 2013  
User currently offlineqfatwa From Australia, joined Jun 1999, 725 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6263 times:

From the qantas website:

Sydney, 04 October 2012

Qantas has taken the next steps towards establishing its new gateway to Europe and the UK, enabling customers to book flights through the global hub of Dubai for travel from 31 March 2013.

The revised Qantas routes, Sydney-Dubai-London and Melbourne-Dubai-London, come as the ACCC considers the proposed Qantas-Emirates partnership, which remains subject to regulatory approval. Today’s schedule changes do not involve coordination between the airlines and do not require ACCC
approval.

CEO of Qantas International, Simon Hickey, said routing flights via Dubai would ultimately enable improved travel options offered through the proposed partnership.

"The proposed partnership with Emirates will offer Qantas customers one-stop access to more than 30 destinations in Europe compared with the five we offer now,” said Mr Hickey.

"The benefits for the travelling public are clear and feedback we've had since the Emirates partnership was announced has been overwhelmingly positive.

"By releasing our schedules now, travellers can book their trips beyond March 2013 with confidence based on the new Qantas international route map.

"The Kangaroo Route used to pass through the Middle East on its way from Australia to London and now it will again," Mr Hickey added.

Qantas will start initial work with Emirates on its proposed partnership from today, following
discussions with the ACCC and withdrawal of the airline’s request for interim authorisation. The ACCC is considering the airlines’ substantive application for authorisation.

Qantas has also made a series of other adjustments to its international flight schedule, focused on giving customers more choice and flexibility. Qantas services to Frankfurt will continue until October 2013 and flights to Singapore will be timed so that they connect better with onward flights within Asia.

The new schedule will be available shortly on qantas.com and via travel agents.

Qantas will contact passengers with existing bookings to Europe or the UK after 31 March 2013 affected by these changes to offer them alternative flights. Customers with bookings prior to this date are not impacted by the change.

SUMMARY OF SCHEDULE CHANGES

ROUTE CHANGE FOR TRAVEL FROM 31 MARCH 2013

Sydney–Singapore–London and Melbourne–Singapore–London: Flights will operate via Dubai instead of Singapore, en route to London. Direct services to Singapore will remain but timings will improve.

Sydney–Singapore: Four new dedicated Singapore services per week, timed to better connect to onward flights within Asia.

Melbourne–Singapore: Dedicated Singapore service, seven times a week, timed to connect better to onward flights within Asia.

Singapore–London: Qantas services on this sector will cease. Qantas will codeshare on British Airways flights to provide connections via Singapore for travellers on Qantas services from Australia.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6259 times:

the new QF35/36 MEL-SIN-MEL arrives just before 8pm in SIN, probably main connections are JL SIN-HND, Jet Airways SIN-DEL

other than that they're competing with JQ on the MEL-SIN sector and its connecting opportunities in SIN.

if you destination is SIN, its a good time to arrive in the evening, you can get out of Changi and into town and can go out still.

Plane only looks to be on the ground for 2 hours in SIN.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5149 times:

QF81/82 will operate daily out of SYD from April 1 -- nonstop to SIN on Sun/Mon/Wed/Fri and via ADL on Tue/Thurs/Sat. The nonstop flights depart SYD at 9:40am for a 4pm arrival, returning at 8:15pm for a 6:05am arrival.

QF5/6 seems to be unchanged... I guess this means QF can continue to advertise double daily SYD-SIN, at least until October. Perhaps FRA isn't losing the tens of millions of dollars it was reported to -- it seems to me that QF would want to get rid of it quickly if it was.

No changes yet for PER/BNE (or ADL for that matter).

Quoting tayser (Reply 1):
other than that they're competing with JQ on the MEL-SIN sector and its connecting opportunities in SIN.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the JQ services change over the next 12 months. QF will have triple daily on MEL-SIN from April (their own service, JQ's service and EK's service), and only 11 weekly on SYD-SIN (not counting the ADL stopping flights). Depending on what happens next October, they are likely to only have a single daily service of their own, with no other partners on the route.

To me, it would make sense to move JQ frequencies to SYD to boost frequency and to better compete with TZ. Or, perhaps, for EK to start SIN-AKL and allow JQ to move the aircraft flying that route to move to SYD.


User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5002 times:

As of now, if I try and book PER-LHR after March 2013, it puts me on QF to SIN connecting straight on to BA to LHR. When do the EK codeshares start?

User currently offlinedirktraveller From Singapore, joined Jan 2011, 495 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4934 times:

Thanks for sharing this information.

Apart from adjustment made into the MEL and SYD services, I was just wondering if the agreement between Qantas and Emirates, will have any affect on any other QF schedule between Australia and Singapore.

Such as the QF71/72 rotation PER-SIN and QF 81/82 ADL-SIN operating currently? Or maybe the QF BNE-SIN services?

Regards,
Dirktraveller


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12421 posts, RR: 100
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4883 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting qf002 (Reply 2):
Perhaps FRA isn't losing the tens of millions of dollars it was reported to -- it seems to me that QF would want to get rid of it quickly if it was.

That was my thought. Why is QF extending FRA?!? I am confused.

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 3):
When do the EK codeshares start?

I believe authorization is required. But I'll let those who know more of the ACCC process comment.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8741 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4799 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
hat was my thought. Why is QF extending FRA?!? I am confused.

to keep the flame burning and be able to switch over from FRA to BER should that terminal really open on Oct 27,2013.

Opening up BER for EK that way with QF metal.

Let's keep this on file and let's see if I take the cake. (Chocolate please)



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3314 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4683 times:

Quoting tayser (Reply 1):
other than that they're competing with JQ on the MEL-SIN sector and its connecting opportunities in SIN.
Quoting qf002 (Reply 2):
I wouldn't be surprised to see the JQ services change over the next 12 months. QF will have triple daily on MEL-SIN from April (their own service, JQ's service and EK's service), and only 11 weekly on SYD-SIN (not counting the ADL stopping flights). Depending on what happens next October, they are likely to only have a single daily service of their own, with no other partners on the route.

To me, it would make sense to move JQ frequencies to SYD to boost frequency and to better compete with TZ. Or, perhaps, for EK to start SIN-AKL and allow JQ to move the aircraft flying that route to move to SYD.

I can see this happening too.

if anything, keep MEL/SIN to QF B744, and replace QF ADL/SIN with JQ A330.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4656 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
hat was my thought. Why is QF extending FRA?!? I am confused.

to keep the flame burning and be able to switch over from FRA to BER should that terminal really open on Oct 27,2013.

Opening up BER for EK that way with QF metal.

Let's keep this on file and let's see if I take the cake. (Chocolate please)

Funny. I had the exact same thing in mind. Matter of fact, I was going to open a thread the other day asking if it were possible for EK to use QF flights on their own behalf to BER, STR and maybe even YYZ/YUL. Question is if the bilateral allows this, or if it has a clause restricting the number of seats they can sell to intermediate points.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8741 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4589 times:

It is a wild guess, the real question is, can QF sell seats beyond DXB to destinations other than Australia. I doubt that.

If EK tries sneaking in through the back door, they will likely find that closed with barned wire. As much as I like to get the cake, the chances are dim.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4492 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
It is a wild guess, the real question is, can QF sell seats beyond DXB to destinations other than Australia. I doubt that.

That was my question. Canada would probably only allow QF to sell a minority of the seats to intermediate points. But Germany? I'm not saying anybody would be pleased, but if QF can legally transfer their traffic rights from SIN-FRA-SIN to DXB-BER-DXB, then there's just not a lot of recourse for the German government. It all depends on what the bilateral between Australia and Germany allows.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8741 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4460 times:

Quoting something (Reply 10):
to DXB-BER-DXB, then there's just not a lot of recourse for the German government. It all depends on what the bilateral between Australia and Germany allows.

I once flew FRA-SIN-KUl with direct transfer at SIN. KUL-SIN-BNE from there. That was obviously not a problem, but my final destination was SYD.

I doubt that QF could carry BER-DXB-DEL and vv traffic.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
to keep the flame burning and be able to switch over from FRA to BER
Quoting something (Reply 10):
It all depends on what the bilateral between Australia and Germany allows.

The current bilateral between Germany and Australia states:

Quote:

II. Route to be operated by an airline designated by the Commonwealth of Australia:
From Australia, via points in Indonesia, Singapore or Malaya, Thailand, Burma or Ceylon, India, Pakistan, Middle East, South and South-East Europe to Frankfurt/M. and beyond to the Netherlands and/or to the United Kingdom, in both directions.

Only one point in Germany is named. That Berlin is not named is not surprising due to the four-power status of Berlin when the bilateral was drawn up. Unless the bilateral is changed (which I think is unlikely) it does not provide a backdoor to Berlin for EK.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8741 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4228 times:

Thanks Quokkas. There goes the cake.  

I agree that it is unlikely that the German government will agree to any other point than FRA under the new conditions.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

Why not also route FRA via Dubai during the remaining period?

User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12421 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3755 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Opening up BER for EK that way with QF metal.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
can QF sell seats beyond DXB to destinations other than Australia. I doubt that.

I am unable to find all the legal documents on the Germany/Australia bilateral. However, it seems QF has rights to the mid-east, SE-Asia, and Australia. However, after re-reading, I think they might be limited to FRA!  

Yes, I'm one who proposed QF fly to Stuttgart and Berlin as feed for EK. But if it isn't in the bilateral... Germany will not allow it to happen. Oh well, QF may feed from other European cities.   

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 12):
Only one point in Germany is named. That Berlin is not named is not surprising due to the four-power status of Berlin when the bilateral was drawn up. Unless the bilateral is changed (which I think is unlikely) it does not provide a backdoor to Berlin for EK.

Thank you. I concur.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
(Chocolate please)

With?   

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4696 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
I think they might be limited to FRA!

That's correct, unfortunately. If QF had requested additional route authorities last year (or even last month) I'm sure they would have been approved. Not now, the Germans will see straight through any request for right to BER, STR etc in a heart beat.

"Yes sir, you did here me correctly... Yes Frankfurt is loss making... No, no we really do see growth potential in Bremen"


Call me cynical, but I believe that QF have no intention of operating this route past April. They can't, however, sell seats on EK until the partnership is approved by ACCC (I'm assuming that at the UAE end this is just a case of a government owned entity asking the government to find the right shaped rubber stamp). Therefore they will continue to sell seats on their own metal until such a time as it's approved, and then rebook everyone onto EK from DXB-FRA.

Incidentally, this is why Ben has to go via SIN with BA:

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 3):
if I try and book PER-LHR after March 2013, it puts me on QF to SIN connecting straight on to BA to LHR.

QF can't sell seats on EK yet.


For those interested in reading the bilateral here it is: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1959/2.html



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3631 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 12):
Quote:

II. Route to be operated by an airline designated by the Commonwealth of Australia:
From Australia, via points in Indonesia, Singapore or Malaya, Thailand, Burma or Ceylon, India, Pakistan, Middle East, South and South-East Europe to Frankfurt/M. and beyond to the Netherlands and/or to the United Kingdom, in both directions.

Only one point in Germany is named. That Berlin is not named is not surprising due to the four-power status of Berlin when the bilateral was drawn up. Unless the bilateral is changed (which I think is unlikely) it does not provide a backdoor to Berlin for EK.

I assumed there'd be a catch somewhere.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
Thanks Quokkas. There goes the cake.

To LH. One less carrier on FRA-SIN and BER/STR remain EK-free.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 16):
Call me cynical, but I believe that QF have no intention of operating this route past April. They can't, however, sell seats on EK until the partnership is approved by ACCC (I'm assuming that at the UAE end this is just a case of a government owned entity asking the government to find the right shaped rubber stamp). Therefore they will continue to sell seats on their own metal until such a time as it's approved, and then rebook everyone onto EK from DXB-FRA.

Sounds logical. What is QF doing with the freed up 744s and the employees? Also, is there any word on when EK will upgauge FRA to A388s?



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineairnewzealand From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 2541 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

Qantas has pulled its submition to the ACCC as it can do all the things it wants without approval, however it will re apply at a later date.
They applied to the ACCC as they wanted to be cautious and do things 'right'.

Interesting to note that PER has not been mentioned in a release regarding retimings and keeping of SIN flights. ADL/BNE/MEL/SYD were mentioned as not being unchanged just being retimed for now.
BNE will continue to be daily
MEL will be daily
SYD 11*PW
ADL 3*PW.

Kind Regards


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8741 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2984 times:

Quoting something (Reply 17):
Sounds logical. What is QF doing with the freed up 744s and the employees? Also, is there any word on when EK will upgauge FRA to A388s?

use the 744 elswhere or store the aircraft.

QF is using a handling agent at FRA since a couple of years. Makes it easy, the cntract should be terminated already. Their own staff in administration will be scaled down, I guess they might keep a sales office for central Europe or not. If they pull the tiny rest of their staff completely from Germany they can sell the residence for the Germany manager as well. Makes a nice profit, the market went up.

Quoting something (Reply 17):
To LH. One less carrier on FRA-SIN and BER/STR remain EK-free.

...and to SQ as well.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineSQ22 From Germany, joined Feb 2012, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2782 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
To LH. One less carrier on FRA-SIN and BER/STR remain EK-free.

If there is any cake available in BER, which is highly doubtful for higher yields, it goes to AB/EY first and the cake in STR would have been to small for direct flights. Just look at QR.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
There goes the cake.

Perhaps not completely.

I'm having difficulty finding the relevant ASA's online, but 3K has unlimited rights from Singapore to both Germany and UAE and could potentially route flights to Germany through DXB depending on the various provisions. 3K wouldn't be a particularly good substitute for EK or QF, but it's a concept that could be explored by the partnership if the rights are there.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24079 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting something (Reply 10):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
It is a wild guess, the real question is, can QF sell seats beyond DXB to destinations other than Australia. I doubt that.

That was my question. Canada would probably only allow QF to sell a minority of the seats to intermediate points.

If either EK or EY exercised 5th freedom rights at intermediate points between the UAE and Canada (or to points beyond Canada), which the bilateral permits, their 5th freedom traffic would be limited to 50% of the aircraft capacity. That's quite a common restriction since 5th freedom is supposed to be a by-product, not the primary reason for a route's existence.

Same restriction applies for Canadian carriers should one ever commence service to the UAE with intermediate or beyond 5th freedom operations.


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