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Which Flagship European Al Could Order The 737MAX?  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2744 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8568 times:

Which flagship European Airlines could order the 737MAX?
Indeed, most of them (if not all) fly the A32S...
Will we have the chance to get more diversity?


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57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8517 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8548 times:
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KLM has a huge 737 fleet with many -800 & -900 versions. Though Air France flies A320 there is no reason KLM couldn't continue to fly 737's.

User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8452 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
KLM has a huge 737 fleet with many -800 & -900 versions. Though Air France flies A320 there is no reason KLM couldn't continue to fly 737's.

I hope KLM will get 737Max...Besides KLM, I don't see any other carrier. SAS, which operates 737NGs, has switched to A320Neo



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User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 857 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8432 times:

Longer term...Air Europa, Thomson, HapagFly, Jetairfly, Arkefly.. Air Berlin....??


from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8402 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Which flagship European Airlines could order the 737MAX?

What's a Flagship Airline ?
Ryanair ?

Or do you mean a former Flag Carrier type of Airline?


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8384 times:

Yup, KLM pretty much sums it up. SAS, another possible contender, has gone for the A320neo. Airlines who are not "married" to Boeing will probably find that 2+2=4, whereas those who are will have to convince themselves that, actually, 1+2 is also 4. In short, I don't believe for a second a MAX will be anywhere near as efficient as a GTF powered neo.

On a somewhat related notion, my gut tells me the 8MAX and 9MAX will need very long runways indeed due to the reduce tail clearance vs the -800 and -900 on rotation. E.g. when you have a challenging starting point in the -800 and -900, raising the nose ain't going to do nothing good for runway performance. To put it bluntly, I fear the MAX8 and 9 may well turn out to be a dogs in this respect.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8330 times:

G´day

Quoting LY777 (Reply 2):
SAS, which operates 737NGs, has switched to A320Neo

In another anut thread we have eliminated SAS from the ever shorter list of flagship carriers.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 4):
What's a Flagship Airline ?

My understanding of a flagship carrier is an airline providing a minimum of service even in the back of the plane, without having to pay for gadgets like boarding passes, seat reservation, checked bags, booze or even water and the like. There are not many left, to my knowledge there is none left in the US of A, few in Europe, some of those species are still active and successful in Asia.   


Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12901 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8280 times:
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I don't think it's by any means guaranteed that existing A320 operators will order neo. We have already seen SilkAir, an established A320 operator order 737Max. Likewise, we've seen 737 operators ordering neos.

As the timeline for an all-new single-aisle replacement moves further out, the decision if and when to switch OEMs becomes easier.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8194 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 4):
What's a Flagship Airline ?

A flagship carrier is, for me, what we used to call "National airlines":
AF for France
BA for UK
LH for Germany
IB for Spain
...



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User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6968 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8120 times:

Outside of KLM it's also possible that Transavia (owned by the AF-KLM group) would order some, they fly 737s and AF announced the fleet would grow, albeit before the Max introduction, so long term who knows.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1033 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7969 times:

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 3):
Longer term...Air Europa, Thomson, HapagFly, Jetairfly, Arkefly.. Air Berlin....??

what about Austrian, SAS and Turkish?


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7903 times:

Um, Ryanair? I realise people will object to the term "flagship", but let's face it, they fly a ton more passengers than a lot of what have been identified as "flagship" so far.

User currently onlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4105 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7827 times:

Norwegian has 100 Boeing 737 8 Max on order + 100 options.

But I guess it does'nt fall in under flag carrier. However with the way SAS runs it's business, it may soon be ....


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2798 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7790 times:
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Hmmm I could see Aerosvit order a few of them sometime in the future. Ukraine is a market with a lot of potential.

User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5319 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7758 times:

I wouldn't say KL is a given at all. Going forward if the AF/KL group is to continue to streamline and drive efficiencies I'd expect them to have a common short haul fleet. Also KL have only recently gotten rid of the last of their 733's so I don't think they are due an order just yet.

User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7731 times:

There is a very good chance no European Flag carrier will order the MAX. Airbus is a "home grown" product, and
has made huge inroads into what was once Boeing Territory. Even LH who it was once said "They will order Boeing
even if it goes underwater and backwards" has quite the Airbus Fleet now.

Carriers must operate what they feel best meets their needs.



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7707 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 8):
A flagship carrier is, for me, what we used to call "National airlines":
AF for France
BA for UK
LH for Germany
IB for Spain

Ok then, so here are my guesses, leaving out LCC's and Charter carriers.

KLM (Strong Chance)
Turkish (Strong Chance)
LOT (Strong Chance)
SAS (Medium Chance)
BA (Small Chance)
EI (Small Chance)
IB (No Chance)
AF(No Chance)
LH (Small Chance)
AY (Small Chance)
SR (Small Chance)
AZ (No Chance)
TP (No Chance)
SN (Medium Chance)
LUX (Strong Chance)
OS (Small Chance)
OK (Small Chance)
RO (Medium Chance)
LZ (Small Chance)
SU (Medium Chance)
OA (No Chance)
CY (No Chance)


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6872 times:

Although HV isn't a flagship carrier, it belongs to a flagship Airline group, and together with KL (if they go on with the 737 series, which i expect them to do) we will probably see a signifcant order of 70+ frames on long term.

In addition to LOT, KLM, Turkish, without being flagship carriers, other major airlines that are likely to order the Max are

-Air Berlin
-Ryanair
-Tui Group
-Air Europe


Also there is a chance of EasyJet ordering the 737max.. although with the remaining A320's on order, i expect them to go on with the NEO.


User currently onlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4105 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6798 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 12):
Norwegian has 100 Boeing 737 8 Max on order + 100 options.

But I guess it does'nt fall in under flag carrier. However with the way SAS runs it's business, it may soon be ....

Norwegian has also 100 Airbus 320 Neo on order + 50 options.



Boeing B737 8 MAx deliveries from 2017

Airbus 320 Neo deliveries from 2015


User currently offlineboysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 958 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6647 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 16):
BA (Small Chance)
EI (Small Chance)
IB (No Chance)

I do find it strange that you view BA & IB differently given thier ownership, there is nothing to stop IAG mixing things up. If their is a business case for brand new aircraft at MAD but not for BA's LGW fleet then some of the used short haul fleet at IB could be moved to LGW and replaced by brand new planes from wherever.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6607 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
KLM has a huge 737 fleet with many -800 & -900 versions.

Compared to European 737 operators like Ryanair and Norwegian, I wouldn't consider KL's fleet of 44 737NGs "huge". 18 -700s, 21 -800s and only 5 -900s.


User currently onlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 909 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6161 times:

Quoting boysteve (Reply 19):
I do find it strange that you view BA & IB differently given thier ownership

I am actually thinking that Boeing is going to target BA very aggressively with the MAX and that they might succeed (Do not flame me for this). Recent comments by Boeing says they are VERY eager to flip a 320 operator and if Boeing can offer the right price and training support , I could see BA making the switch.


User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6135 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):

I don't think it's by any means guaranteed that existing A320 operators will order neo. We have already seen SilkAir, an established A320 operator order 737Max. Likewise, we've seen 737 operators ordering neos.

The story I heard about SilkAir is that they wanted the NEO but Airbus was so sure the had the deal in the bag that the refused to seriously negotiate and bring down prices. Boeing came in with a great deal, and SilkAir switched to the 737 because the deal was better and to teach Airbus a lesson. It was a shock even within SilkAir, especially for the technical guys who did not expect it at all. It had nothing to do with 737 being "better" than A320. It was the Boeing commercial package being offered being superior to the Airbus commercial package.

And I think the same will happen in Europe. Some will choose the 737, others A320 and it all depends on the package put on the table. I also remember Norwegian stating that by buying both NEO and MAX, they could get better pricing out of both of them and that benefit was greater than the additional costs of running a mixed fleet.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21590 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5878 times:

There is no reason for any flag carrier in any EU nation that has investments in Airbus (via ownership, factories, major suppliers for A320, etc.) to order the 737MAX. It is politically expedient to order the NEO simply because the 737 and A320 families are roughly equal and duplicate missions. And while price competition would be a nice thought, there would be equal political pressure on Airbus to offer the "best" deal to these airlines so as not to hurt them financially.

This has shown to be true with the current aircraft as well. The widebody aircraft that Airbus and Boeing build can compliment each other in the same fleet due to different missions and sizes, and while there is often pressure to choose the Airbus option over the Boeing plane, airlines have spent their political capital here rather than fighting over the redundant 737 family. And committing to the A320 earns these airlines points they can use to deflect flack over widebody Boeing purchases.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 16):
SR (Small Chance)

I think you mean LX as SR doesn't exist more. And there is absolutly ZERO chance LX wil buy the Max. They are happy with the A320 and would not dare to give up the comonality in the fleet.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 2):
I hope KLM will get 737Max

Please not. The 737 is ugly and doesn't offer the level of comfort like in a A320. Besides a A320 NEO would look great in KLM colors.



“Faliure is not an option.”
25 frigatebird : KL has recently invested in the 737NG, it doesn't need to look at a replacement yet. AF is a different story however. It's very hard to imagine AF not
26 clydenairways : The reason for this is that even though it is part of IAG now, i see domestic pressure on IB to order Airbus which i don't with BA. It's the same sit
27 jumpjets : Until the A320 order BA had of course never ordered a single airbus - though it inherited some from BCal - and BA was sometimes referred to as standi
28 zkojq : According to John Leahy, Airbus didn't get the deal because they had already agreed to sell the last of the early production line slots (which SilkAi
29 LY777 : This is you view. The Boeing Sky interior is amazing, and far superior to the current A320 interior
30 bongodog1964 : Doesn't Southwest fit this description, it did last time I flew with them. BA & IB are already switching A320 orders between themselves, I can't
31 Post contains images delta88 : The only other airlines i think that would EVER in the next 10-15 years order the 737MAX would be BA/Iberia, and Possibly Lufthansa to supplement thei
32 Post contains images BlueShamu330s : BA are mindful of the fact there is a possibility, albeit not a certainty, that by the time the current NB fleet is rolled over, narrow body flights
33 sweair : Slots more than price or brand loyalty will play into future orders. Airbus has a huge backlog, no matter how good the neo will be, if the backlog is
34 autothrust : While the Sky Interios looks great, the 737 cabin looks now even more cramped. With comfort i mean wider fuselage. Also the 737 is noisier then the A
35 jfk777 : With Airbus selling so many A320neo's its early years of production are sold out. Its very likely a European airline currently flying A320's with buy
36 Post contains images imiakhtar : Do you have a source to back up your gobbledygook or is it all conjecture? If you have a look at the dates when the big four (BA, AF, IB and LH) init
37 Aesma : I can't speak for the other three but AF has indeed a lot of pressure to buy Airbus, and it's not just political, the populace is behind it. And he de
38 imiakhtar : Is there evidence to suggest that this pressure is anything but superficial? A review of history suggests that flag carriers, state owned or not, wil
39 clydenairways : I suppose you can get away with it when you can say that i'ts only a percentage of the overall fleet. If AF went to an all Boeing shorthaul fleet, as
40 Aesma : The US has many airlines so we can't really compare. If most of them were mostly Airbus I'm sure there would be trouble too. Also I believe it's marke
41 imiakhtar : Source? Or is this a.net folklore as I suspect?
42 Post contains links phxa340 : Yes , the CEO said this when the order was placed. http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...nology/2016232645_airfrance17.html http://www.industryweek.
43 imiakhtar : I'm not sure how a petition by politicians or a meeting with Sarkozy qualifies as "pressure" any more than a.netters and columnists voicing their dis
44 Post contains images phxa340 : How is are Politicians and Sarkozy telling AF to order Airbus NOT real pressure ? AA had no political pressure to order Airbus/Boeing as far as we kn
45 Post contains images Pe@rson : Why would they want to join "that club"? So they can lose money?
46 rheinwaldner : This contradicts this: I agree with the former. But I also think that the MAX will not keep the market share of the NG in Europe...
47 imiakhtar : Only 3 out of the 15 AF-KLM directors can exert any state influence - which in reality is pretty much zilch.
48 phxa340 : I am not talking about the BoD ... I am talking about the leader of France and influential politicians telling their constituents that AF should buy
49 Aesma : Well, you're wrong. In fact the top people at AF-KLM are politicians or almost politicians, having worked for and being friends with ministers.
50 redzeppelin : Do you say this because of the redesigned tailcone? The extended front gear shouldn't make a bit of difference for tail clearance on rotation -- tail
51 fpetrutiu : I agree, RO will be ordering almost certainly about 10 aircraft within the next 2 years. They will be replacing a fleet of B733, B737, B738 and A318
52 Viscount724 : The 737 still can't match the 7-inch wider Airbus cabin which permits wider seats and/or a wider aisle. However these days the only thing most passen
53 XT6Wagon : and the A320 can't match the 737 for its lower weight and higher max altitude. So? They are not 100% exactly the same. Trust me when the avg passenge
54 sweair : I did fly a A321 from ARN to Madrid a week ago, its quite the runway hog as well IMO, took forever to get off the ground, a 738 would rotate much earl
55 zkojq : I know it might not be the biggest fish, but how about Travel Service? I can see them ordering some MAXes within a decade. Yes, but comparing takeoff
56 Post contains images sweair : Yeah the current big model NB lack the thrust to be useful in smaller places really, the A321 would need 35-37K and the 739 would need 30K+ thrust to
57 Post contains images clydenairways : Yeah Right . So you can now determine aircraft performance from a single flight. On a long runway you can reduce take off thrust to what is required
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