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"Plane's Inverted"?  
User currently offlineCaptjetblast From Argentina, joined Aug 2001, 281 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2998 times:

Alaska Airlines Flight 261 - 31 JAN 2000

Another pilot from an Aero Commander 690A, registrated N50DX, kept visual contact with AS261, as requested by LAX, reporting, as extracted from CVR, what follows:
...
16:20:20 N50DX Plane's inverted sir
16:20:22 R14 OK very good it looks like he's turning ah turning over in front of you now Skywest fifty one fifty four you still got your eyes on him sir
16:20:29 SKW5154 (unintelligible) he's in sight he ah definitely out of control
16:20:32 R14 OK very good
16:20:39 SKW5154 (unintelligible) he's inverted
...
R14 = Los Angeles ARTCC Sector 14
ASA261= Alaska Airlines Flight 261
N50DX = Aero Commander 690A, registrated N50DX
SKW5154 = Skywest Flight 5154 (Santa Barbara - Los Angeles

The question is: can a MD-83 turn upside-down, inverted? Was everybody aboard hanging head down?
And finally, can a pilot recover from such a bad shape?
Thanks

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClimbout From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2884 times:

Yes, that was horrifying to hear. I too wondered what it must have been like for those poor passengers being dangeled from upside down. I was very impressed by the calmness of the cockpit crew.

This happened to a BA744. A guy stormed the cockpit and tried to take over the controls and apparently, this 744 flipped over in the midst of all of the chaos. Thank goodness this one landed safely and I heard even men were screaming and crying.


User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2883 times:

Airlines can fly upside, a 707 on one of the demo flight did a barrel role. Being able to recover from being upisde down is possible. However I think Alaska's problem was much larger then just inverted flight, going upside down was just a symptom!
Iain


User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4780 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Given enough altitude and fully functioning engines and control surfaces, you can recover from inverted flight. However, when your stabilizer and elevators have gone crazy on you, there's nothing much you can do.

User currently offlineMilldoh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2861 times:

"16:20:32 R14 OK very good "

HUH?!?!

not the words you'd expect to hear at such a terrible moment


User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2864 times:

Climbout, the report I read said it almost went inverted, not that it did, however very scary non the less!
Iain


User currently offlineClimbout From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2849 times:

lainhol-are you referring to Alaska or the BA incident?

Milldoh-I thought the response "very good" was strange too. However the more I listened to the CVR's (and I listened over and over), I realized that the controller's comment was directed towards the two pilots who were watching the aircraft. He had asked them to keep an eye out on the doomed jet, and to report to him whatever the MD80 was doing. So, whenever the two pilots reported what they saw (roll over, out of control, ect..) the controller's response was "very good" meaning, very good in reporting to me in an efficient manner. He surely wasn't saying that it was "very good" that the plane was out of control.


User currently offlineDL3744 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2839 times:

Thats scary
the pilots should have something to say
even though it wasnt there fault the plane flipped over and the passengers were scared half to death, for real


User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

Sorry I should have clarified I was refering to the BA incident ofver Kenya.

About the responce, the controller probably had very little knowledge on what was going on, I highly doubt he knew what the MD-80's problems where. I think his responce was more along the lines pleased to see you are still looking for him, rather then a response to what the aircraft is doing.
Iain


User currently offlineClimbout From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2815 times:

Thank you for the info on the BA. I wasn't completely sure on what happened. I can't imagine a 744 turning completely over.

I agree with your comments on the controller. That's exactly what I was trying to state in my post above.


User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2808 times:

DL344, I am sure the crew of BA where very apologetic to all the pax. British Airways paid for all their hospital treatment and gave them a free flight.
I though it was sad that the general public bashed BA for not paying for the medical expenses of the attacker. I think BA did the right thing sending out the message that this behaviour would not be tolerated!
You will pleased to know that the captain is back flying again!
Iain


User currently offline174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

-Blink In-

WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN?
Why did this happen?
Where did this happen??


From a very confused
174thfwff

-Blink Out-


User currently offline174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2790 times:

-Blink In-

I got this much, "Alaska Airlines Flight 261 - 31 JAN 2000 "

But did this plane survive? Or was the the one that crashed?

Still confused,
174thfwff

-Blink Out-


User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5499 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2780 times:

This is the transcript from the Alaska MD 80 that crashed in the Pacific.

You can hear the ATC recording on airdisasters.com, very chilling.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2773 times:

December 28th on British Airways flight 2069 from London Gatwick to Nairbo Kenya a man went into the cockpit and attacked the crew. In the stuggle the auto pilot was turned off and the plane dove 1000's of feet. Some brave passengers sorted out the attacker while captain Hagan and the crew got the airplane back under control!
Iain


User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2766 times:

The Alaska Crash took place of the coast of CA January 31st 2000. It was an MD-80 traveling from Mexico to SFO, and then up to SEA. Unfortunately no one survived!
Iain


User currently offline174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2751 times:

Poor guy, he remained calm throught the whole process.

Why couldn't he land the first time? I think this is the plane that had 3 miss landings...


User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

The Alaska crew is not part of the selected transcript in this post. Some people made comments about the guys being calm, that's the other guys listening from ATC and the ones watching from the two other planes nearby. Saying "OK, very good" is just an expression. I don't think the the ATC guys thought the accident was "very good" at all.

User currently offline174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2730 times:

Well I though I heard him say that he was in a nose dive or somthing to that effect. Or wasn't in one yet.

User currently offlineTWA717_200 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2730 times:

I believe that during the struggle aboard FedEx 705, the pilot rolled the plane (DC-10) inverted a couple of times.

User currently offlineClimbout From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer in my post above. I know the crew members are not talking in this portion of the transcripts. I was referring to the conversations between the pilot and the first ATC (who is also not part of the above transcript). When the pilot was explaining the problem to the first ATC, he was pretty calm--concerned, but calm. The portion above is what took place AFTER the converation between the pilot and first ATC. The first ATC told the pilot that he was leaving his area and he switched him over to the one that's in the above transcripts. Yes, the ATC was saying "very good" to the other two pilots that were watching the MD80 as they reported to him what they were seeing. And it was indeed just an expression.

User currently offlineGsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1093 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2726 times:

I've listened to the ATC recording for that flight.

First, the "very good" from the ATC was not a very good. He was first saying very good to the Skywest and the Delta? that were giving him information because he couldn't what Alaska 261 was doing (at that point the cockpit of 261 was not responding to him). Second, you have to hear the ATC's tone of voice..... actually, just listen to the whole thing. It made my stomach drop. But you can definately tell he didn't mean very good for 261.

Didn't an Eastwind have the same stabilizer problem as well? Not sure if it was inverted or not, but I remember one that landed safely in Richmond that had the same stabilizer problems as Alaska 261.

And if you want to hear the ATC recording, go to www.airdisaster.com .... don't listen to many of them, it'll make you feel awful.


User currently offlineClimbout From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2722 times:

Yes, 174thfwff

You are correct. The first thing we hear the pilot saying is:

"center this is 261, we are in a dive here, not a dive yet, but we've lost verticle control of our airplane"


User currently offline174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

Well If I came on the air and said "we are in a dive here, not a dive yet, but we've lost the verticle control of our airplane" I would be nervous.

User currently offlineCharlieduke From United States of America, joined May 2001, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (12 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

Sccutler wrote:
"This is the transcript from the Alaska MD 80 that crashed in the Pacific.

You can hear the ATC recording on airdisasters.com, very chilling."

Thanks for the link, but I believe you mean airdisaster.com. Now please excuse me while I go explain to my 10 year old daughter why daddy was looking a pictures of naked women.


25 Post contains images Iainhol : CharlieDuke I did not get to see any picture of naked women! Iain
26 Goallegheny : The Eastwind incident was a suspected 737 rudder servo control anomaly, similar to the one that brought down the USAir 737 near Pittsburgh, PA, and al
27 Wingman : I remember thinking how incredibly calm the Concorde Captain seemed as well from reading the transcript on that crash. I never listened to the audio,
28 Jmacias34 : Sympathizing with the ATC, there isn't a lot he can do. I can assure the pucker factor was extremely high in the cockpit. And as an ATC what would you
29 L-188 : The Alaska crash was caused by the pilot who decided to lower the flaps on an aircraft with a disabled horizontal stabilizer. He had a stable and cont
30 Cfalk : L-188, While the plane was stable for the moment, with the elevators hanging loose virtually any change would cause an upset, including reducing speed
31 Sccutler : 1. Sorry to all if I muffed-up the link- I was in a hurry. 2. We can speculate as to whether the aircraft might have remained controllable absent flap
32 Airsicknessbag : Lufthansa lost two of their eight 720s on training flights - one after the plane simply disintegrated flying a roll. Daniel
33 Captjetblast : Yes, the words "very good" left me thinking about it for a while. How can anyone say "very good" while referring to an accident in progress? Maybe he
34 Dash8tech : L-188, how can you say it was the pilots fault for lowering the flaps and thus causing the aircraft to go down? If he doesn't lower the flaps he can't
35 L-188 : I can say it because it was wrong. He lowered the flaps which changed the center of lift on that wing. Since the airplane wasn't retrimmable due to th
36 Dash8tech : L188: ....okay, so when he makes a turn to land te aircraft this wouldn't have affected the surface in the same way?? He did nothing more than attempt
37 L-188 : I don't thin I would expect ALPA to go into a discussion about how one of it's members, "screwed up" You have to remember the union stance....All pilo
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