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Scoot Signs MOU With Tiger; Adds NRT & More China  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6219 times:

Some news out from two of Singapore Airlines subsidiaries.

Tiger Airways and Scoot have signed a MOU which is meant to foster "a deep and wide ranging co-operation".

Its mentioned the two carriers would jointly market services including initially offering through itineraries to Tiger destinations such as Phuket. Ho Chi Minh City and Kuala Lumpur, and Scoot destinations of Sydney and Gold Coast. Tiger recently moved facilities in SIN and now us under the same roof as Scoot in Terminal-2 facilitating easy connections.

Story:
http://www.spicenews.com.au/2012/10/...-and-Scoot-team-up/CPVHJAPMKL.html


Additionally Scoot seems to have gotten Narita slots finally and has loaded the schedule of its new Tokyo service.

Starting October 29th, Scoot will commence a daily NRT flight by extending its TPE service.

TZ202 SIN-TPE 0055-0540
TZ202 TPE-NRT 0650-1040

TZ201 NRT-TPE 1150-1435
TZ201 TPE-SIN 1545-2010


Edit -

I see they also added schedules to Shenyang and Qingdao China.

Effective November 27th.

Tue/Fri/Sun

TZ086 SIN-SHE 0200-0835
TZ086 SHE-TAO 0950-1120
TZ085 TAO-SIN 1235-1845

[Edited 2012-10-04 11:07:57]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16945 posts, RR: 48
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6204 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Tiger Airways and Scoot have signed a MOU which is meant to foster "a deep and wide ranging co-operation".

Train wreck. So the two LCC offshoots of SQ are going to team up to do what....take on SQ ? I don't think even US carriers tried *two* airlines within an airline, let alone having them team up.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5929 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Train wreck. So the two LCC offshoots of SQ are going to team up to do what....take on SQ ?

The most price sensitive people does not fly SQ anyway, so this will just as much tap into traffic from other carriers.



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5743 times:

Actually I think by having Scoot and Tiger work together is a win-win.

Overnight customers will have a much broader set of network destination they will be able to reach on a single ticket.
Now many of the Tiger regional destinations will be connected to the longer distance Scoot flights. Benefits customers on both sides.

Also regarding the comment about competing with SQ, I see this much more about trying to check the growth of Air Asia, JetStar and such. Scoot and Tiger help keep folks and money inside the SQ family instead.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16945 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5667 times:

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 2):
The most price sensitive people does not fly SQ anyway, so this will just as much tap into traffic from other carriers.

It will, including SQ, because most of the people in Y don't value the SQ amenities and will ditch SQ for a cheaper fare. That means SQ has to find ways of back-filling those seats, and it's certainly not going to be at the same or higher fare, thus diluting the market.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Actually I think by having Scoot and Tiger work together is a win-win.

It is, but it's more like two drunks holding each other up. It also begs the question, why not Tiger 777s in the first place, rather than Scoot?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Also regarding the comment about competing with SQ, I see this much more about trying to check the growth of Air Asia, JetStar and such.

It's all very much like Metrojet, except instead of a tired 732 it's a tired 772, and you have to pay for everything on Scoot , and Scoot's strategy is a mess. Sure it may stimulate demand for a while, but it will ultimately lead to the same conclusion, that SQ's costs are too high and it's cannibalizing its own traffic with a money losing "LCC". I can see wanting to compete with Air Asia, but Scoot has about as much chance of competing with Air Asia as Metrojet did with B6.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5609 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
It will, including SQ, because most of the people in Y don't value the SQ amenities and will ditch SQ for a cheaper fare. That means SQ has to find ways of back-filling those seats, and it's certainly not going to be at the same or higher fare, thus diluting the market.
SQ's strength is being a network operation ala EK. Something like 60% of customers connect.

Sure it might lose O&D bargain chasers to Scoot or other LCCs in the region, but at the end the carrier still lives on that network connection flow and obviously the premium class fliers it retains around the globe. If needed SQ can and does offer bargain Y class fare sales, especially intra-Asia, and I am sure they will continue that practice to manage loads and yield.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
It also begs the question, why not Tiger 777s in the first place, rather than Scoot?

One reason is SQ parent does not have full ownership of Tiger - only about 32%. Its more an affiliate company, that has other independent interest including pursuit in developing shorthaul ventures in Indonesia, Philippines and Australia.

Scoot on the other hand is a wholly owned subsidiary that SQ can more easily craft and develop a niche for.

Also I guess we should not forget that SQ has Silk Air under the umbrella as well.

[Edited 2012-10-04 18:26:24]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16945 posts, RR: 48
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5555 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
SQ's strength is being a network operation ala EK. Something like 60% of customers connect.

Same with DL, UA, CO, US, AC, BA, etc, etc. This is not a new concept, nor a particularly well executed one, particularly up against the well oiled behemoth that is Air Asia, and is more likely to follow the same fate as Metrojet/Shuttle by United/Zip/etc than anything.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6944 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5537 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Starting October 29th, Scoot will commence a daily NRT flight by extending its TPE service.

This sounds like it will be very profitable. I wonder how much these tickets would cost.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5473 times:

A bit off topic, but how many planes do Scoot have in their fleet now?

User currently offlineinfinit From Singapore, joined Jul 2008, 505 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5420 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
It will, including SQ, because most of the people in Y don't value the SQ amenities and will ditch SQ for a cheaper fare. That means SQ has to find ways of back-filling those seats, and it's certainly not going to be at the same or higher fare, thus diluting the market.

Well not quite. I know lots of of people from countries in Asia other than mind who will -only- fly SQ and nothing else. Like when I was in school I had wealthy Indonesian classmates who'd fly back home to CGK regularly in Y, never on another airline. Even though it's a 1.5hr flight and SQ's Y tends to go for around S$400 (US$330) while GA and back then LH flying this route were around S$300. Not to mention the LCCs on this short hop were going for around S$100. SQ is a status symbol for many in the region and 10 years of LCC competition has not changed that.

Maybe its because of the booming economies in Asia but I attribute this phenomenon to the persistently wide income gaps in many Asian countries unlike the US where you have a much bigger middle class.

Also, SQ's yields from the premium cabins are what's holding it up. Their J class is probably their strongest product, comparable to F on many other airlines and up till now they never do fare sales in J (or F), they only time they had a J fare sale was in 2008 when the economy tanked.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
One reason is SQ parent does not have full ownership of Tiger - only about 32%. Its more an affiliate company, that has other independent interest including pursuit in developing shorthaul ventures in Indonesia, Philippines and Australia.
Scoot on the other hand is a wholly owned subsidiary that SQ can more easily craft and develop a niche for.
Also I guess we should not forget that SQ has Silk Air under the umbrella as well.

Yeap, Tiger isn't a fully owned subsidiary. I guess Scott is their own while Tiger allows them to have a wider network.. but why not just buy over Tiger? It's getting really crowded in there. I guess Tiger is a competitor for Air Asia while Scoot was SQ's answer to AirAsiaX, the long-haul arm, but why not synergise them? Maybe this MOU is a step towards that.

SilkAir has been doing really well, earning more than the parent company last year but I think it'll have a tough time position itself in time to come. MI is a regional carrier but a premium one. Most people out of Sg and Malyasia I met tend to think it's a LCC since its regional and it doesn't have a strong brand name beyond these two countries, unlike SQ. I also noticed that they had many fare sales in Y last year probably to get a little closer to the prices of the LCCs but I wonder if this "premium regional airline" model can last.


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6954 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

The Two LCC brands never made sense, and one stop 777 services to China make no sense either. The aircraft in a high density layout is simply too big for routes like these.

Sounds like scoot is struggling.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineallrite From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 1869 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5280 times:

I believe that LCC's are good for the region because they make travel possible that would otherwise be out of the price range of many travellers. Many of the routes are short enough not to require full service luxuries.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
one stop 777 services to China make no sense either.

I wonder about the sense of flying the 777 on the SIN-TPE-NRT route. Jetstar Asia already flies SIN-TPE-KIX with a A320. The Japan - Taiwan route would surely be ripe for the new narrowbody Japanese LCCs if there is money to be made with it. That said I just booked TPE-NRT with Scoot last night as part of a multihop LCC holiday in Asia, something that we can only afford (okay, hopefully afford) to do thanks to the various LCCs in operation in the region.



Applying insanity to normality
User currently offlinesydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 2807 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5252 times:

Quoting allrite (Reply 11):
The Japan - Taiwan route would surely be ripe for the new narrowbody Japanese LCCs if there is money to be made with it.

Given JQ Asia's KIX-TPE service, I'm betting that aside from Korea and Saipan, one of the first international destinations for Jetstar Japan will be NRT-TPE to join the dots. I'd say Scoot with a 772 will eventually be squeezed by narrowbody carries fragmenting the market.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19097 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5122 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Sounds like scoot is struggling.

"Scoot needs need from Tiger and smaller aircraft to achieve profitable growth"

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...to-achieve-profitable-growth-84407



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6954 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 13):

It feels that scoot is afraid of going head to head against SQ, so are making their airline as unattractive as possible, with one stop, round robin style services. If the excellent air Asia flies direct from KUL to Tokyo, surely there is direct LCC demand from Singapore.

It is hard enough building a brand in Singapore for Scoot to also have to build a brand to fill seats from Taipei to Tokyo. They also run the risk of being beaten by other direct LCC competition.

Air Asia is an amazingly strong and growing ASEAN brand. Scoot is low cost airline number 4 to be based in the already crowded Singapore market. The SQ fragmented operating model of the excellent Singapore, run-of-the-mill silk air, and two struggling low cost brands all operating from one city makes zero sense.

Does Singapore have a network of medium haul routes that can justify a super high density, low cost, no connection 777 operator? Manila and Jakarta have the worker traffic to the Gulf, Thailand has the leisure routes to Russia - but Singapore - with all the competition? How does the CASK of scoot compare to say Xiamen air or China Southern (Xiamen and Guangdong being too large ethnic markets for Singapore).



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19097 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4951 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
with one stop, round robin style services

One-stop, same-plane only exists on SIN-NRT. They also sell TPE-NRT. But, I take your point.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
Scoot is low cost airline number 4 to be based in the already crowded Singapore market.

Indeed, but to be fair, most of its routes aren't served by other LCCs.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
Does Singapore have a network of medium haul routes that can justify a super high density, low cost, no connection 777 operator?

Hence the relationship with TR to provide feed. I recall D7 saying they couldn't exist but for the feed provided by AK.

[Edited 2012-10-05 05:00:50]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4868 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Tiger recently moved facilities in SIN and now us under the same roof as Scoot in Terminal-2 facilitating easy connections.

The terminal move is more due to the Budget Terminal being closed for redevelopment as Terminal 4. Both airlines are likely going to move to the new Terminal when it is completed thou.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Train wreck. So the two LCC offshoots of SQ are going to team up to do what....take on SQ ? I don't think even US carriers tried *two* airlines within an airline, let alone having them team up.

And there you go again, comparing every situation with the US situation. Perhaps you may wish to check out what SQ's competitors are doing before making that remark. So when AirAsia and AirAsia X cooperates and when Jetstar and Jetstar Asia interlines, you consider that a negative business decision as well?

Quoting infinit (Reply 9):
I know lots of of people from countries in Asia other than mind who will -only- fly SQ and nothing else.

Count me as one of them. The only reason why I support more LCCs out of SIN is so that SQ fares can be cheaper.  I have only flown LCCs once, and that is on Tiger to KUL. Nothing further than that, thank you, although I might try Scoot one day just to check it out.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
The Two LCC brands never made sense, and one stop 777 services to China make no sense either. The aircraft in a high density layout is simply too big for routes like these.

Sounds like scoot is struggling.

Several major airlines in this region have multiple LCC brands as well, and for good reason. Tiger and Scoot have different ownership structures and cannot be simply lumped into one unless SQ buys up all of Tiger. When that happens, however, Tiger may have even more issues trying to buy into other airlines in the region, an issue which is bad enough as it is.

Both TYO and TPE are major markets out of SIN. Based on what did you conclude that this route is not viable? And would a struggling airline launch such a route if it is considered risky?

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
Does Singapore have a network of medium haul routes that can justify a super high density, low cost, no connection 777 operator? Manila and Jakarta have the worker traffic to the Gulf, Thailand has the leisure routes to Russia - but Singapore - with all the competition? How does the CASK of scoot compare to say Xiamen air or China Southern (Xiamen and Guangdong being too large ethnic markets for Singapore).

Considering the SIN market is much bigger than KUL, were you berating AirAsia for starting AirAsiaX? Also consider the fact that SIN is way bigger than MNL and is even bigger than BKK if you discount the domestic traffic. If you think only low-wage workers and low-budget tourists would fly LCC, than how would you justify the success of European and American LCCs?



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

On a related note, a lot of people are forgetting that one of the key attractions of LCCs is the flexibility of flying to one city and getting home from another. Unlike mainlines or legacies which price their one-way at only a little less, about the same and in some cases even higher than two-way fares, the budget airlines are based one single trips. I know of many businessmen who favour LCCs for regional trips because they can eg, land in HK and depart from Macau, Shenzhen or Guangdong as convenient without backtracking. Similarly, flying into Jakarta and going on to other cities such as Bandung and Yogyakarta on a round robin makes great sense rather than having to go back to Jakarta to get onto the home-bound leg. In such cases, saving time is even more important than the lower cost.


Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16945 posts, RR: 48
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 16):
And there you go again, comparing every situation with the US situation.

This isn't the first time that one network carrier has started a "LCC" with tired old airplanes in the hopes of 'capturing back the low yield traffic'; it's not even the 10th time it's been tried.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 16):
Perhaps you may wish to check out what SQ's competitors are doing before making that remark. So when AirAsia and AirAsia X cooperates and when Jetstar and Jetstar Asia interlines, you consider that a negative business decision as well?

Those are all the same brands. Regardless, I'm not against Tiger and Scoot tying up at all--in fact it makes sense, even though there were a lot of missteps to get to this point of having 2 SQ LCC affiliates, neither of which seem to be doing particularly well.

Quoting infinit (Reply 9):
I know lots of of people from countries in Asia other than mind who will -only- fly SQ and nothing else.

And they will continue to do so, as do devotees of BA/UA/DL/etc, but they are a small minority of the passengers, though they contribute an outsize fraction of the revenue.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):
Hence the relationship with TR to provide feed. I recall D7 saying they couldn't exist but for the feed provided by AK.

D7 was a disaster, even with the AK feed, until they cut all the longhaul stuff and essentially made it the widebody version of AK. But Scoot is hurtling down the same path as D7, so we shall see how that goes!



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4752 times:

So how big is Scoot's fleet now? I guess it's still just ex-SQ 777-200s?

User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6954 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4644 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 16):
Considering the SIN market is much bigger than KUL,

And much more competitive. KUL has one major Low Cost based there - Singapore has four - Jetstar, Tiger, Air Asia and Scoot.

From reading the article it does seem that scoot is running out of route options for a 400 seater aircraft without feed.

I agree that TYO and TPE are big enough markets from SIN, so why is Scoot flying TYO one stop rather than direct? Shying away from direct competition with Papa SQ?

A 400 seater is far too big for the vast majority of Chinese regional cities not flown by SQ today - heck even silk air with SQ feed manages very few destinations on a daily basis - Kunming, Xi'an , Shenzhen and Wuhan for example. A LCC a320 is far more suited to these routes, and about a dozen more, especially if they feed the SQ hub system.

Does Scoot have a non compete with Silkair I wonder?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4469 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
And much more competitive. KUL has one major Low Cost based there - Singapore has four - Jetstar, Tiger, Air Asia and Scoot.


No subsidiary or affiliate of AirAsia is yet based in Singapore. It seemed to be so because with four of its units; AirAsia (Malaysia), Thai AirAsia, Indonesia AirAsia and AirAsia Philippines making Singapore a destination in their networks, it has become a de-facto base.
However, AirAsia (Malaysia) has started "night-stopping" its aircraft in the republic since the later part of 2011 as a prelude to its second attempt to set up AirAsia Singapore in the very near future.
Till then AirAsia is NOT based in Singapore.



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6954 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

In the eyes of the customer, Air Asia has a major presence in the Singapore market with approx. 40 flights daily.


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19097 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4234 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
I agree that TYO and TPE are big enough markets from SIN, so why is Scoot flying TYO one stop rather than direct?

Probably to take advantage of TPE-NRT on which it has traffic rights and given the lack of LCC competition on the route. Jetstar does the same from SIN to KIX, albeit with a 320 - so with range implications. But, yes, it is somewhat odd.

[Edited 2012-10-05 10:47:54]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4048 times:

SQ are a very confusing airline.

It now has 4 brands that it owns, or holds stakes in, which must be a nightmare to run in many ways.

The decision to launch Scoot has confused me since it was even speculated, given that it is an airline that is designed to take on JQ/3K (and D7), but without feed there was always going to be issues. Passengers want connection options, and SIN just isnt that big of a market in its own right to support a significant O&D operation in this space.

Joining up with TR is a wise move, however why wasn't this just not considered prior to launching another brand'? Was the TR brand considered damaged or was it SQ wanting sole control of this brand? If so, whats the change now to facilitate this move to join forces?

Seems like a misguided effort at best in trying to launch this carrier.


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6954 posts, RR: 57
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 23):

With the LCC market in Japan just beginning, this route will be swamped by other carriers flying proper sized equipment to TPE. Jet star also have a small but rapidly growing presence in Japan, so will have a strong presence on either end of the route. Scoot will not.

Again, what is the CAS of a one stop scoot via TPE rather than a non stop SQ?

Shouldn't Scoot be trying to grow dominance of Singapore, rather than TPE? The 772 can easily fly to TYO direct.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinebennator From Singapore, joined Mar 2012, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 25):
Shouldn't Scoot be trying to grow dominance of Singapore, rather than TPE? The 772 can easily fly to TYO direct.

This is anecdotal only, but, as someone who flies SIN-TPE-SIN on 3K about once per month (have actually used all the carriers on this route, but usually end up on 3K), usually about 80% of the flight "turns over" in TPE. TPE-NRT is a huge market, currently only served by legacy carriers. If Scoot can be the first LCC to get into this market, and charge even a bit less than the legacies, it will likely be a huge success.


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6954 posts, RR: 57
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4098 times:

Quoting bennator (Reply 26):
it will likely be a huge success.


Is Singapore so small that they have to start flying non Singapore routes already - and not build scale and awareness at home?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 24):
Was the TR brand considered damaged or was it SQ wanting sole control of this brand?

Remember as mentioned earlier, Singapore has only a minority share holding in Tiger. Was about 32% at the end of 2011.

So SQ can only exert limited control over TR. With this MOU it seems they came up with something win-win for both carriers and something TR's independent board went along with.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineTreeHillRavens From Malaysia, joined Jun 2007, 388 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4059 times:

Things are different in Singapore (and Asia as a whole) compared to the US or EU. Besides, Scoot took off just less than a year ago. Isn't it a bit too early to draw conclusion now ?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):

D7 was a disaster, even with the AK feed, until they cut all the longhaul stuff and essentially made it the widebody version of AK. But Scoot is hurtling down the same path as D7, so we shall see how that goes!

Precisely why you do to see Scoot going long-haul at the moment. As a matter of fact, Campbell Wilson said that his airline won't be flying to the EU anytime soon. It's not because they do not have the suitable aircraft, but rather the economic situation there. In D7's case, the 343 was simply too expensive to operate for a LCC like them while their 333 can't make it nonstop to EU. The tough economic climate in EU also made everything even worse.

Anyway, it's worth noting that D7 is actually a profitable airline. It is making money on its North Asia and Australia flights.


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4031 times:

Just curiously of the big three Asian LCCs; Jetstar, Tiger, and Air Asia (are they the biggest three? Maybe Lion air?)

How many bases and subsiduaries do they have?

Air Asia:
- Malaysia: Domestic, International, long
- Indonesia: Domestic, International
- Thailand: Domestic, International
- Philipines:Domestic, International

Jetstar:
- Australian; Domestic, International and Long-haul
- Singapore: International and Long-haul
- Vietnam: Domestic, International
- Japan: Domestic (soon to be international)
- New Zealand: Domestic, International
Coming soon: Hong Kong

Tiger:
- Singapore:
-Thailand:
-Australia


User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3848 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 30):

Tiger have no base in Thailand.
Their attempt at joint venture with Thai Airways just did not fly with the Thai Authorities. (Ditto for South Korea where their proposed tie-up with Incheon City to launch Incheon Tiger Airways came to naught.)
They do have Indonesia and The Philippines though; through affliates Mandala and Seair respectively.



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
This isn't the first time that one network carrier has started a "LCC" with tired old airplanes in the hopes of 'capturing back the low yield traffic'; it's not even the 10th time it's been tried.

Except that the "tired old airplanes" of American carriers are typically much older than the "tired old airplanes" of SQ.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Those are all the same brands. Regardless, I'm not against Tiger and Scoot tying up at all--in fact it makes sense, even though there were a lot of missteps to get to this point of having 2 SQ LCC affiliates, neither of which seem to be doing particularly well.

Again, you appear completely ignorant to the very reason why there are two affiliates, or you simply chose to ignore them. I leave it to you to do your own research.

Meanwhile, Tiger Singapore is doing perfectly fine and is already making money for years now. The only entity dragging it down is Tiger Australia run by a non-Singaporean, and SQ had to parachute in a Singaporean to turn things around, which it is already doing. As for Scoot, how in the world do you know how they fare when they have flown for a grand total of just over four months?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
D7 was a disaster, even with the AK feed, until they cut all the longhaul stuff and essentially made it the widebody version of AK. But Scoot is hurtling down the same path as D7, so we shall see how that goes!

You obviously need to read up more on why D7 withdrew from Europe. That they actually took the courage to withdraw is itself a sign of a mature airline, especially one which is still making money as a whole. Scoot is obviously learning from their experience and the choices of destinations are strictly localised as well for some time to come.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
And much more competitive. KUL has one major Low Cost based there - Singapore has four - Jetstar, Tiger, Air Asia and Scoot.

Which suggests the SIN market can support more LCCs than KUL. Meanwhile, Lion Air is about to setup a subsidiary in KUL, and will likely present a much bigger threat.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
From reading the article it does seem that scoot is running out of route options for a 400 seater aircraft without feed.

Evidence?

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
I agree that TYO and TPE are big enough markets from SIN, so why is Scoot flying TYO one stop rather than direct? Shying away from direct competition with Papa SQ?

Both of us have no idea, but if avoiding competition with SQ is your only answer to this, than it is a poor one. As it is, 50% of Scoot's routes are in direct competition with SQ. Try harder with a more convincing explanation.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
A LCC a320 is far more suited to these routes, and about a dozen more, especially if they feed the SQ hub system.

A320s can only fly up to the Southern half of China from SIN. Scoot is needed to serve central and northern China. I would have believed this is basic stuff.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 22):
In the eyes of the customer, Air Asia has a major presence in the Singapore market with approx. 40 flights daily.

So why should AirAsia bother to try and establish an airline here based on most recent news?

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 27):
Is Singapore so small that they have to start flying non Singapore routes already - and not build scale and awareness at home?

If there is money to be made, why bother? As if the travelling public in Singapore do not know there is a Scoot?

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 30):
Tiger:
- Singapore:
-Thailand:
-Australia

Correction:

Tiger / Scoot:
- Singapore: International and Long-haul
- Australia: Domestic, International and Long-haul
- Indonesia: Domestic, International
- The Philippines: Domestic, International

[Edited 2012-10-06 08:47:18]


It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6954 posts, RR: 57
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

The Singaporean superiority complex rises again re tiger Australia.

Please note the list of routes that I proposed be operated by the A320. Xi'an and Shenyang are today only served by a one stop A320 via KMG and CAN respectively, so ripe for exploitation by direct service.

For low costs to be successful, they need a strong local brand awareness on one side of the route, and if possible both, but that is usually far too expensive to develop. Scoot cannot afford a brand awareness campaign in TPE and TYO, unless they love throwing cash away. I'm all too aware of the scoot brand positioning in Singapore, which I have commented on before. Jet star will have awareness in both Singapore and Japan.

The evidence of running out of routes for a hi density 777 is the article above by they well respected CAPA.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinewinglets747 From Australia, joined Mar 2007, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3519 times:
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Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
It feels that scoot is afraid of going head to head against SQ, so are making their airline as unattractive as possible,

Not afraid but clear ring fencing as to where Scoot and SIA can overlap. Although the two serve SYD, the timings make the proposition very different. Scoot's capacity on BKK is a bit of a drop in the bucket.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
It is hard enough building a brand in Singapore for Scoot to also have to build a brand to fill seats from Taipei to Tokyo. They also run the risk of being beaten by other direct LCC competition.

There is tremendous potential between Taipei and Tokyo, especially since most of the current operators have a high cost base. Brand building can be easy in highly connected societies as well as effective use of the media and offering cheap seats. Scoot's load factors to Australia show that. Now it needs to maintain loads but bring them to profitability - as is typical of start-ups.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
How does the CASK of scoot compare to say Xiamen air or China Southern (Xiamen and Guangdong being too large ethnic markets for Singapore).

While Chinese carriers have potential for admirable CASKs, they can be woefully inefficient. Xiamen is more efficient than China Southern, however. Pitting a mainland full-service carrier against a southeast Asian LCC is not in China's favour.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
This isn't the first time that one network carrier has started a "LCC" with tired old airplanes in the hopes of 'capturing back the low yield traffic'; it's not even the 10th time it's been tried.

You're absolutely correct, but there are very clear nuances as to why other attempts (North America, Europe) failed. For a detailed look at why Qantas/Jetstar, SIA/Tiger/Scoot, ANA/Peach etc. are different, this piece may be of assistance (disclosure: I work for the company): http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...nd-launch-a-low-cost-carrier-79698

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
D7 was a disaster, even with the AK feed, until they cut all the longhaul stuff and essentially made it the widebody version of AK. But Scoot is hurtling down the same path as D7, so we shall see how that goes!

D7 is still a long-haul operation and far, far, far from a "disaster". They cut two ultra-long-haul routes: London and Paris. The routes were never designed to be cashcows; they were brand extensions and a bit ego-driven for when MAS and AirAsia were deep competitors - now they are more amicable, AirAsia has brand recognition through sport events, and higher fuel prices and taxes means sustaining "strategic" routes is less desirable. D7 flies no routes under four hours, the upper limit of AirAsia short-haul units.

They also withdrew from Mumbai and Delhi where distribution was a challenge and, unlike other Indian cities short-haul AirAsia flies it, the market is primarily outbound from India whereas elsewhere AirAsia could bank on Malaysians of Indian descent visiting family, or encouraging said family members to take AirAsia. As for CHC, the market has failed to rebound from the unfortunate earthquake.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 24):
but without feed there was always going to be issues

Yep and getting the feed going was going to take considerable time. Airline IT is nastily complex. It took AirAsia X and Jetstar time too.



Stay hungry. Stay foolish.
User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 33):
The Singaporean superiority complex rises again re tiger Australia.

Superiority complex or otherwise, the sequence of events with regards to Tiger Australia shows why local control is still better in the most dire situations. The fact remains that Tony Davis screwed it up as Group CEO, had to be sent to head Tiger Australia to resolve the problems he created before he left, while SQ exerted its control over the grouping and placed Chin Yau Seng from SQ as acting CEO. Another local, Koay Peng Yen, took over as Group CEO in August. Former Tiger Australia CEO Crawford Rix similarly screwed it up, and has now been replaced by Andrew David, who has much more experience in the region. And during these difficult times, ex-SQ Chairman Joseph Pillay has been Chairman of the Tiger Group. It is said that the entry of Pillay and Chin paved the way for Tiger to consider moving away from the pure LCC model and to consider tie-ups with other carriers such as this one with Scoot. Andrew David in Australia may even lead to possibilities of a domestic alliance with Virgin, to fully complete the SQ-Virgin alliance.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 33):

Please note the list of routes that I proposed be operated by the A320. Xi'an and Shenyang are today only served by a one stop A320 via KMG and CAN respectively, so ripe for exploitation by direct service.

Those routes you have mentioned are for Tiger to expand into. Xian is a possibility in the new future for Scoot. Meanwhile, your comment on Shenyang seems to suggest you do not know that Scoot has already announced the triangular route Singapore-Qingdao-Shenyang-Singapore to be launched in November, a fact also mentioned in the CAPA article. Did you read it in full?

Silkair's range restriction is similar to Tigers'. Scoot is meant to serve those markets beyond the radar of both Silkair and Tiger unless there is a significant market size (the Pearl River and Yangzi River delta regions being the most obvious candidates) which can support multiple offerings.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 33):
For low costs to be successful, they need a strong local brand awareness on one side of the route

Scoot marketing in Singapore it as big as it can get. It is even the sponsoring ad which heralds the start of the nightly local news bulletin. It is not that difficult to market to a 5-million strong economy squeezed into a highly urbanised area with high literacy levels and standard of living but with limited local media outlets to choose from. Like it or not, the Scoot publicity machine is in our faces day in day out, as long as we buy a local paper.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 33):
The evidence of running out of routes for a hi density 777 is the article above by they well respected CAPA.

I am thankful that I am capable of reading the article in full, and I have noted that the article's main point is that Scoot has to acquire smaller, long-range aircraft to overcome various issues (not all of which are market size) to expand beyond its current phase. By all indicators, Scoot has not ruled out buying other aircraft, and the article notes this as well. So if Scoot announces a new aircraft acquisition strategy in the next few months, are you going to suddenly say Scoot is a success?

So making a statement like

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Sounds like scoot is struggling.

based purely on an article saying Scoot is struggling to find new destinations seems to suggest you actually know Scoot's financial and performance figures. Care to share if you do?



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3441 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 35):
Andrew David in Australia may even lead to possibilities of a domestic alliance with Virgin, to fully complete the SQ-Virgin alliance.

This should definitely be considered. Could become a very strong partnership to combat QF/JQ.

Im sure both carriers can leverage off such a move, however it certainly required TT to build up its damaged brand first before contemplating it.


User currently offlinecheeken From Singapore, joined Feb 2010, 80 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):

I agree that TYO and TPE are big enough markets from SIN, so why is Scoot flying TYO one stop rather than direct? Shying away from direct competition with Papa SQ?

Has anyone considered "not enough planes"? For all we know this one stop route might be the best option for the fleet's size at this point of growth instead of just either destination, and once demand grows (presence in both cities for awhile should help) and fleet size increases, they can operate non-stop to both destinations...

[Edited 2012-10-06 22:53:27]

User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3399 times:

This arrangement gives Scoot + Tiger Asia a one stop, with change of plane service between a couple of Australian ports and three Asian ports, where it already possible to fly non stop between Sydney and Phuket on JQ, Sydney and KL on Air Asia X to menition just LCCs and Vietnam Airlines for SYD--SGN - SYD-SGN has been a non stop JQ route, though not at the moment. So Tiger/Scoot would have to be price competitive to be chosen over the non stops on these routes. Will they take people off Air Asia.

If Scoot is going to do an arrangement with Tiger Australia, that would mean timing flights to ports like Hobart so that they connect, if Scoot adds Melbourne to their Australian network. Tiger Australia and Tiger Asia seem to operate rather differently - with Tiger Asia now offering meals for pre purchase (to compete against Asia(


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24641 posts, RR: 86
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3394 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 35):
Andrew David in Australia may even lead to possibilities of a domestic alliance with Virgin, to fully complete the SQ-Virgin alliance.

I think that would do a fair deal of damage to the brand that Virgin Australia is so carefully nurturing.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6590 posts, RR: 75
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3402 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 30):
Air Asia:
- Malaysia: Domestic, International, long
- Indonesia: Domestic, International
- Thailand: Domestic, International
- Philipines:Domestic, International

Jetstar:
- Australian; Domestic, International and Long-haul
- Singapore: International and Long-haul
- Vietnam: Domestic, International
- Japan: Domestic (soon to be international)
- New Zealand: Domestic, International
Coming soon: Hong Kong

Tiger:
- Singapore:
-Thailand:
-Australia

For Air Asia, add Japan (currently domestic only)
For Tiger, delete Thailand, add Phillipines with SEAir and Indonesia with Mandala... both do domestic and international.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 32):
So why should AirAsia bother to try and establish an airline here based on most recent news?

Errr... you missed the announcement for the CEO of Air Asia Singapore?   
But at the moment, Air Asia Singapore is just a coordinating entity within Air Asia SE Region group, to optimize presence in SIN, prior to setting up the airline itself.

Scoot, is a joke in my opinion. They'd be better off by making TigerAirX    *Just kidding on this line*

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6954 posts, RR: 57
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3284 times:

The Singapore arrogance continues. Just tell me how in your face advertising in Singapore benefits a TPE TYO flight. Oh, and I read the article. Refer my posts earlier about triangle flights.

The costs of non hub to non hub marketing is huge, especially with an airline as unknown as Scoot.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinecheeken From Singapore, joined Feb 2010, 80 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3181 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 41):
Just tell me how in your face advertising in Singapore benefits a TPE TYO flight.

I don't know, when non aviation enthusiasts ask me about cheap flights to TPE in the past few weeks, the first thing they ask is "Is Scoot cheap?" And they don't know that Jetstar operates SIN-TPE until I tell them. Obviously there is widespread awareness about this option, I guess the publicity helped. If anything, Scoot seems to be the new hot topic when it comes to low cost flying from SIN!

[Edited 2012-10-07 04:49:39]

User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 36):
Im sure both carriers can leverage off such a move, however it certainly required TT to build up its damaged brand first before contemplating it.
Quoting mariner (Reply 39):
I think that would do a fair deal of damage to the brand that Virgin Australia is so carefully nurturing.

Agreed concerning their image. Remove that huddle, and the prospects are quite interesting. I am sure SQ chose someone from Virgin to run Tiger Australia for a reason.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 41):
The Singapore arrogance continues.

How about responding to my factual questions instead of trying to be a flame-bate? I would have thought mature individuals can handle different opinions than to start their name-calling?

By all means, show me the stats to prop up your viewpoint. Where are your stats on Scoot's fiscal and operational performance, for one?

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 41):
Just tell me how in your face advertising in Singapore benefits a TPE TYO flight.

Just tell me in your face that scoot advertising is confined to Singapore alone?

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 41):
Oh, and I read the article. Refer my posts earlier about triangle flights.

Then I hope you read it in full instead of taking bits of it to suit your agenda.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 41):
The costs of non hub to non hub marketing is huge, especially with an airline as unknown as Scoot.

By that argument, no airline would dare to fly such routes. Strangely, many airlines tend to introduce them to test unknown destinations?

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 40):
Errr... you missed the announcement for the CEO of Air Asia Singapore?

Read this.
http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest+N.../Story/A1Story20120823-367028.html

My question is just a hypothetical one in response to another post. Unfortunately, he is not responding to it.

Quoting cheeken (Reply 42):
If anything, Scoot seems to be the new hot topic when it comes to low cost flying from SIN!

Some of my friends seem to think Scoot is already flying everywhere. They would tell me to check Scoot's prices to Melbourne, for instance...

Anyway in the main English broadsheet in Singapore today, a 16-page insert called "Insider's Guide to Gold Coast" was included, a publication by Scoot in partnership with the Queensland Tourism and Gold Coast Tourism. I do not recall Tiger ever doing such a thing, and even full service carriers will hardly do so either.



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineallrite From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 1869 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 32):
The only entity dragging it down is Tiger Australia run by a non-Singaporean, and SQ had to parachute in a Singaporean to turn things around, which it is already doing.

I note that Scoot's CEO is a New Zealander, though a long term SIA employee.  
Quoting huaiwei (Reply 43):
Some of my friends seem to think Scoot is already flying everywhere. They would tell me to check Scoot's prices to Melbourne, for instance...

In my opinion Scoot are doing a superb job of creating online buzz. However, I do wonder what will happen in the longer term as their current "honeymoon" promotional fares are surely too low to be sustained. In my opinion, having flown SYD-SIN rtn with Scoot, their current hard economy product is "too hard" in comparison with Jetstar (can't say for D7) and business almost exactly the same. I can see them being lumped in the "fly only if they are much cheaper than their competitors" position in Australia, which is where I suspect Tiger Australia sits right now.

It's very interesting to see the lack of response to Scoot from Jetstar in Australia as the Qantas group tends to be very reactive.



Applying insanity to normality
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16945 posts, RR: 48
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2895 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 32):
Except that the "tired old airplanes" of American carriers are typically much older than the "tired old airplanes" of SQ.

Oh *well* let the profits roll right in!  
Quoting huaiwei (Reply 32):
Again, you appear completely ignorant to the very reason why there are two affiliates, or you simply chose to ignore them
Quoting huaiwei (Reply 32):
Meanwhile, Tiger Singapore is doing perfectly fine and is already making money for years now

It had a -13% operating margin FYE MAR12, after two years of meager profits

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 32):
You obviously need to read up more on why D7 withdrew from Europe.

The routes were terrible and longhaul LCC rarely works. That's why. You can spin it as any number of reasons, but it doesn't change the basic fact that D7 couldn't get the fare high enough to cover the costs.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 33):
The Singaporean superiority complex rises again re tiger Australia.

Superiority complex with a side of nasty attitude 
Quoting winglets747 (Reply 34):
For a detailed look at why Qantas/Jetstar, SIA/Tiger/Scoot, ANA/Peach etc. are different,

Qantas/Jetstar may be different, but Scoot/Peach are way too new to be judged as 'different'. In fact there was a hysterical map of Asian carriers and their umpteen LCC offspring published by the WSJ a month or two ago; if it were early 2000s it could have been a map of the US/Canadian carriers and their lost cause, I mean low cost carriers.

Quoting winglets747 (Reply 34):
D7 is still a long-haul operation and far, far, far from a "disaster".

It's overwhelmingly within the range of the 320, whereas the initial concept was very much focused on longhaul. The longhaul bit clearly was mostly disastrous as it was pulled quickly. The regional setup may be working better, but as others have said, even in Asia it can be tricky finding places to send a 3-400seat plane that is mostly local traffic.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 43):
and even full service carriers will hardly do so either.

It's very common; destinations will often put together an ad campaign with a call out to a specific carrier. After all, what's a reader to do with 10 pages on Quintana Roo if there isn't a tie in with AA to fly to CUN?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6590 posts, RR: 75
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
This isn't the first time that one network carrier has started a "LCC" with tired old airplanes in the hopes of 'capturing back the low yield traffic'; it's not even the 10th time it's been tried.
Quoting huaiwei (Reply 32):
Except that the "tired old airplanes" of American carriers are typically much older than the "tired old airplanes" of SQ.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
Oh *well* let the profits roll right in!

Garuda tried with Citilink... eventually, they realized, yes it can work, BUT, unlike the previous attempts by "others", it's not about barebones products... it's the cost control philosophy. Citilink was failing big time until someone realized where the problem was (and after several million dollars went down the drain!). New planes or old planes don't matter... but the correct planes and the correct product, does matter... and I don't see Scoot as having either of them... but see below...

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
It had a -13% operating margin FYE MAR12, after two years of meager profits

I must say, Tiger up until middle of last year appeared to have been a disaster. Let's hope the turnaround since has been more fruitful.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 32):
You obviously need to read up more on why D7 withdrew from Europe. That they actually took the courage to withdraw is itself a sign of a mature airline, especially one which is still making money as a whole. Scoot is obviously learning from their experience and the choices of destinations are strictly localised as well for some time to come.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
The routes were terrible and longhaul LCC rarely works. That's why. You can spin it as any number of reasons, but it doesn't change the basic fact that D7 couldn't get the fare high enough to cover the costs.

It is a simple fact that long haul LCC rarely works. Long haul needs the belly below the passengers' feet filled with revenue. D7 couldn't fill it. Relying solely on pax for long haul LCC, is a disaster waiting to happen. Scoot, "outsource" that to SQ. Without it, it's never going to work, not with the 777 !

D7 pulled out of Europe for many many reasons, the most blatant one, it lost money. They switched from STN to LGW to eek out a few more pennies through savings by the new offers LGW was making... and they were also hoping better cargo loads through LGW... Even before the new taxes, it was still, loss making. (Let's not start with the ORY route! That's a bigger disaster) The internal numbers were scary, but the single itinerary through booking they allowed in the end did improve things, albeit too late.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
It's overwhelmingly within the range of the 320, whereas the initial concept was very much focused on longhaul.

Agree... back then, they didn't see the "need" to provide a seamless feed with the regional ops, dismissing such idea as, "non-LCC". In the end, the resistance capitulated. I do however, cite caution on "overwhelmingly within the range of the 320", because Air Asia (and Tiger), limit their operational scope with the crew duty and flight time limitation, ie: they gotta go back to base within the same duty day. For a while, they had a good long look at whether having an extra pilot was going to be able to stretch the "duty n policy limit" of the 320 ops, and also looked at whether extra FAs on the longer flights were going to provide similar things. At the end of the day, they decided not to (I hear the numbers were close either way though).

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 12 hours ago) and read 2216 times:

Interesting as part of the rumored SQ 787-10 launch order news out today, the carrier would likely place a portion of the aircraft at Scoot.

Per reports the model would provide Scoot a 25% fuel burn reduction and the lowest cash operating cost per seat compared to peers like Air Asia X and Jetstar Asia.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinesydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 2807 posts, RR: 20
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 47):
Per reports the model would provide Scoot a 25% fuel burn reduction and the lowest cash operating cost per seat compared to peers like Air Asia X and Jetstar Asia.

Not forgetting that Jetstar Asia will have access to Jetstar Group 788's which will fly some routes out of SIN.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 46):
Relying solely on pax for long haul LCC, is a disaster waiting to happen. Scoot, "outsource" that to SQ.

SQ learned from what QF did with JQ. If you have capable airplanes with belly capacity and an integrated freight model over an airline group, then why not use the space?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1674 times:

So with SQ and VA deals, I suppose we will now surely see the budget brand of Scoot and Tiger working together.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
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