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BLI VS YVR  
User currently offlineCPA62 From Canada, joined Jan 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4120 times:

I was at Bellingham airport flying out to LAs, i was surprised to see the expansion going on, and the extension
of the runway to handle international flights. It would be fantastic if BLI could replace YVR as Vancouver's airport,.and have all the international carriers shift south to Bellingham, By-passing the restrictions placed on YVR. Air Canada and Canada have been impeding traffic, trade and tourism into Vancouver since forever and this would be a nice slap in the face to both. It's the high ticket prices ex YVR that are driving passenger like myself to BLI. Article in the Vancouver Sun Oct 3 suggests 40 % of a ticket price consists of taxes and fees, this according to the Conference Board Of Canada. The sad reality of it all is the Feds will likely do nothing reverse the trend; as passengers, jobs, tax revenue drift south.
Good for BLI!! ...great future courtesy of the Canadian Government!  

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4100 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Thread starter):
By-passing the restrictions placed on YVR

What restrictions are you referring to?


User currently offlineLafite82 From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2012, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

BLI will always be considered a secondary airport, despite its increased usage by fellow Canadians. YYZ is an even more expensive airport to fly into, so using your analogy, perhaps international carriers should consider flying into BUF as alternative?

As a frequent traveler between Canada and the Far East, I dread the thought of having to land in BLI, and then only arriving YVR a couple of hours later after a bus ride and potential lengthy delays at the border. I am afraid it is only wishful thinking on your part.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1017 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3875 times:

40% of the ticket price? Or 40% of the fare difference?

And those international flights you refer to - sun destinations or intercontinental?


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Thread starter):
By-passing the restrictions placed on YVR.

And these would be ? Please provide a source.

Quoting CPA62 (Thread starter):
Air Canada and Canada have been impeding traffic, trade and tourism into Vancouver since forever and this would be a nice slap in the face to both.

AC have massively ramped up Pacific service in the past decade, hardly impeding traffic, trade, and tourism. The Feds have been very proactive in signing Open Skies agreements, so that any carrier can fly into YVR. Not our problem if others won't sign.

Quoting CPA62 (Thread starter):
Article in the Vancouver Sun Oct 3 suggests 40 % of a ticket price consists of taxes and fees, this according to the Conference Board Of Canada.

As El Pistolero asks, 40% of the fare, or the fare difference ? Big difference there. Don't ever think the press are accurate in reporting things they don't actually comprehend.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3014 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3800 times:

Could Abbotsford be considered a viable alternative to Vancouver?

I remember a few years back, Zoom Airlines operated flights to the UK instead of use YVR due to its lower costs. Does the airport offer much in the way of traffic right now?

When I was visiting Vancouver a year or two back, I travelled by bus from Vanvcouver to Seattle and the bus ran via Bellingham airport. At the time it looked tiny, and no one got on or off the bus.

Abbotsford would save the hassle of having to cross the Border between USA and Canada by land, and I remember on the day I travelled, there was long delays and seem to take forever. But for myself having a UK Passport, I suppose could have added to the delays?!

On a slight side note, but I think it is related. Does Canadian Airport's charge higher fees than US Airports for airlines, as I have read before about airlines complaining of the expensive fees to fly into Toronto and Vancouver, and are apparently some the highest in the world. (Im happy to be corrected, as cannot find my source.)


User currently offlineBobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1713 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3799 times:
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BLI will never replace YVR even if the border didn't exist.

User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2433 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3699 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Thread starter):
It would be fantastic if BLI could replace YVR as Vancouver's airport,.and have all the international carriers shift south to Bellingham

Do you realize how ridiculous your statement is !

BLI can never replace YVR. Sure, it compliments it, offering a nice alternative to limited amounts of destinations, but in no way can BLI support the massive international operation that YVR sees on a day to day basis.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineACT7 From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 3):
And those international flights you refer to - sun destinations or intercontinental?

It is exclusively other U.S. destinations and sun destinations. None of the border airports that Canadians are using have directy flights to Europe, South America, Asia, etc. I'm not disputing the 5 million pax figure, nor the fact that fees and taxes on airline tickets in Canada are high, but this is typical media hysteria not telling the full story.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3548 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
Could Abbotsford be considered a viable alternative to Vancouver?

Not really, not without significant infrastructure development, not limited to terminal expansion. Roads around the airport, for example,, would have to be massively improved. Who's to pay for that ?

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
On a slight side note, but I think it is related. Does Canadian Airport's charge higher fees than US Airports for airlines, as I have read before about airlines complaining of the expensive fees to fly into Toronto and Vancouver, and are apparently some the highest in the world. (Im happy to be corrected, as cannot find my source.)

Yes, fees are higher in Canada. Both as a way of funding airport development and also due to government policy. The latter, however, may change.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinedrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 637 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3522 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 4):
As El Pistolero asks, 40% of the fare, or the fare difference ? Big difference there. Don't ever think the press are accurate in reporting things they don't actually comprehend.

The number is 40% of the fare difference.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1017 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 10):

The number is 40% of the fare difference.

In that case, what is the other 60%? US taxes? Airline markups? I don't understand how this calculation is being done (I can't find a copy of the report either - seems to be a subscribers only thing, which is fair enough, but makes it difficult to be objective about this report).

What is the objective of this report? Remove all taxes? Because even then, there 60% of the fare difference will remain, which may or may not be a sizeable amount (depends on the airfare, I suppose).

I generally take these studies with a pinch of salt. The zero tax model sounds great, but what does it mean for consumers? Will reducing/removing the taxes actually result in lower ticket prices, or thicker profits for airlines? Will the benefits be passed on to consumers? If not, what will we achieve?

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
On a slight side note, but I think it is related. Does Canadian Airport's charge higher fees than US Airports for airlines, as I have read before about airlines complaining of the expensive fees to fly into Toronto and Vancouver, and are apparently some the highest in the world. (Im happy to be corrected, as cannot find my source.)

Yes. And yes.

Personally, I don't think the government's stance is going to change because they don't think the cost relief will be passed on to consumers. Airlines will keep charging the same prices, with or without taxes. In the government's defence, if that money ends up in the taxpayer pot, it is far more likely to be used in a manner that benefits the flying public, than if it were to end up in an airline's pocket, which is why I personally doubt the government will lower taxes unless its absolutely convinced that the drop in taxes will be mirrored by a drop in airfares. As things stand - having spoken to some bureaucrats around here - I don't think they're particularly convinced.

Just some food for thought. As always, I remain committed to basic free market principles - ie low-to-no taxes and "more=better" competition.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3098 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
Could Abbotsford be considered a viable alternative to Vancouver?

Depends where you live. It's quite a distance from the Vancouver city center, about 42 miles/70 km, especially in rush hour traffic.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
Does the airport offer much in the way of traffic right now?

WestJet has about 4 daily departures, 3 to YYC and 1 to YEG, plus a 1 x week seasonal (winter) nonstop to PVR. A couple of small local carriers have a few flights with Piper Navajos and Beech King Airs to Victoria and Nanaimo.


User currently offlineANM604 From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3017 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Thread starter):
It would be fantastic if BLI could replace YVR as Vancouver's airport,.and have all the international carriers shift south to Bellingham,

Yes, how brilliant! Maybe AC will shift their hub there as well! Just think of all the benefits: Job losses, lost income, lost tax revenue etc etc. I mean, why on earth would you want a growing, vibrant airport in your city? Surely it would better serve Bellingham's 75,000 residents....     


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3197 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2806 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
When I was visiting Vancouver a year or two back, I travelled by bus from Vanvcouver to Seattle and the bus ran via Bellingham airport. At the time it looked tiny, and no one got on or off the bus

I flew YVR-BLI-PDX on San Juan Airlines in the early 90's and BLI was nothing but GA and a small building, nice to see how things have changed for the better.

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 6):
BLI will never replace YVR even if the border didn't exist

If the boarder didn't exist then this thread would be moot.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 8):
And those international flights you refer to - sun destinations or intercontinental?
It is exclusively other U.S. destinations and sun destinations. None of the border airports that Canadians are using have directy flights to Europe, South America, Asia, etc. I'm not disputing the 5 million pax figure, nor the fact that fees and taxes on airline tickets in Canada are high, but this is typical media hysteria not telling the full story.
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):

Yes, fees are higher in Canada. Both as a way of funding airport development and also due to government policy. The latter, however, may change.

Keep in mind, flying from BLI to Hawaii or another domestic US destination is one thing, but if you are talking about International flights from BLI then consider the taxes that are placed on International tickets from the USA. There would be less incentive to travel from BC to BLI to fly out, the fact that you can save the taxes by flying BLI-HNL vs YVR-HNL is the reason BLI is doing good business these days. The parking lot is filled with BC license plates.



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2674 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Thread starter):
and the extension of the runway to handle international flights.

uhhhh- WHAT?

There is NO runway extension going on.
Two years ago they did widen it and beef it up a bit to handle birds as heavy as, say, a 757.

But that is all that was done.
And that's all that can be done.

That is~
unless you move a few roads, one of them being Interstate FIVE, and then bring in LOTS of fill dirt!!!



StudeDave



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2451 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2629 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Thread starter):
By-passing the restrictions placed on YVR

I would also be interested to hear about these. As far as I know YVR wins many awards and a lot of money has been spent to improve it. Unless you have Nexus, often border wait times are up to an hour. For those with non Canadian passports (of which there are many in Vancouver), you then have to go inside and even getting the visa waiver like I have to get usually takes half an hour to line up and process once you get to the front of the border line up. I would rather spend that 40% extra (not to mention not risk frequent huge delays, clapped out maddogs and being nickle & dimed courtesy of G4) and pay my $15 cab ride to YVR which takes 10 mins.

Quoting CPA62 (Thread starter):
have all the international carriers shift south to Bellingham

See above. Not to mention that most of the Asian pax that fill all those widebodies are in Vancouver itself or Richmond all within 30 mins of YVR by transit or road.

Quoting CPA62 (Thread starter):
It would be fantastic if BLI could replace YVR as Vancouver's airport

Yep, that 25 minute Canada Line ride from airport to downtown is nothing compared to the bus to BLI. And those two long runways, modern award winning terminal with A380 ready gates and plenty of room to expand just dont cut it compared to BLI.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
Could Abbotsford be considered a viable alternative to Vancouver?

No, its far too far to serve Vancouver itself and there is no transit out there. Its right on the Highway 1, but that is a zoo after Langley during most of the day. It serves the local market only, with the WS flights to YYC designed to connect or even carry on to YYZ, YUL & YWG.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
I remember a few years back, Zoom Airlines operated flights to the UK instead of use YVR due to its lower costs

You mean Zoom should have tried YXX instead of YVR? Dont think it would have helped them, it was their UK operation that brought them down and there was more competition at the time with GSM in the mix too. Shame, I enjoyed flying them, really wish they had chosen STN instead of LGW though...

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
A couple of small local carriers have a few flights with Piper Navajos and Beech King Airs to Victoria and Nanaimo.

Funnily enough, Island Express Air are now linking YXX with YVR to serve the business traveller. Fares may seem high on the surface, but compared to a 70km cab ride x2 or parking for a week, it makes sense. Interesting to see how it does, but on Friday there was 1 pax so they used their PA-28 Cherokee! That is two carriers at YVR who now use light aircraft periodically for scheduled flights (the other being KD Air who use the C172 on the Qualicum run if loads are light).



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

Noise complaints from residents near BLI are becoming an issue. I expect Allegiant's MD-80s are the main problem as the MD-80 must be one of the loudest airliners still in service.

A few related local news items earlier this year.
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012...ngham-airport-neighbors-raise.html
http://bbjtoday.com/blog/gaining-alt...ic-from-canadian-travelers-2/15085
http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=26900


http://bbjtoday.com/wp-content/woo_custom/2010-tailsWEBCROP.jpg


User currently offlineCPA62 From Canada, joined Jan 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting StudeDave (Reply 15):
uhhhh- WHAT?

There is NO runway extension going on.
Two years ago they did widen it and beef it up a bit to handle birds as heavy as, say, a 757.



I may have not heard correctly, based it on a report on CTV News Oct 2.

The lack of any action on part of the Canadian government is marginalizing Vancouver. For a greater Vancouver population of 2.8 million we have relatively poor service to the U.S. Vancouver is a small market and cant afford to loose 750,000 to 1 million passengers a year to BLI or SEA. Without connectivity to the US , I can see Vancouver loosing international flights?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 18):
Vancouver is a small market and cant afford to loose 750,000 to 1 million passengers a year to BLI or SEA. Without connectivity to the US , I can see Vancouver loosing international flights?

I think YVR (and other Canadian cities near the border) can afford to lose that type of extremely price-sensitive and mostly leisure traffic which is normally the least profitable. When you look at the number of international (mostly Asian) carriers that have started service to YVR in the past few years, and record high load factors being reported by both major Canadian carriers, there seems to be plenty of passengers willing to pay current fares to fly from much more convenient local airports.

If you surveyed the YVR parking lots I expect you would find a fair number of Washington license plates also. International fares from Canada are often fully competitive and even lower than from comparable U.S. points, and that also often includes through fares including the transborder connecting flights. In fact I've often seen AC international fares from U.S. points with a connection in Canada that are significantly lower than their Canada-originating fares, but that's of course common everywhere since connections are less desirable products than direct flights and are priced accordingly.


User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2451 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2333 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 18):
For a greater Vancouver population of 2.8 million we have relatively poor service to the U.S.

Lets see, incl seasonal flights - any many of these are 2-3 flights per day

AC - HNL, OGG, LAS, LAX, EWR, SFO, ANC, KOA, SAN, SEA, PDX
AS - LAX
QX - SEA, PDX
AA - DFW
CX - JFK
DL - JFK (starting next year), MSP, ATL, DTW, SLC
PR - LAS (ends Jan next year)
UA - ORD, DEN, IAH, SFO, LAX, EWR
US - PHX
WS - ORD, HNL, OGG, KOA, LAS, LIH, LAX, SNA, PSP, PHX, SFO

Plus frequent charters into various Washington regional airports by San Juan Airlines with piston Cessna's.

Not too shabby for such a small city and I can not think of any US city that is missing from the network that can really warrant a direct flight, other than ATL becoming more than a one per week seasonal flight to serve the Caribbean and Latin America better, plus Florida. If WN came, then MDW & DAL would be obvious contenders, but the cities themselves are already covered.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4930 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

The biggest price advantage for BLI, BUF and BTV over YVR, YYZ and YUL respectively are flights to the United States. An internal domestic flight from BLI, BUF and BTV to the US will always be cheaper than the international counterpart from YVR, YYZ, and YUL to the US.

And as noted above, the very very price conscious segment of the market that is willing to drive 3 hours to save money, is not usually worth fighting for, as there is little if any profit margin.

As far as international flights from BLI, BUF and BTV there is rarely a price advantage over YVR, YYZ and YUL respectively.

YVR, YYZ and YUL are very large international airports that offer full services, and those services are very expensive. I have done ILS CAT3 auto-lands in RVR600 at both YVR and YYZ, and ILS CAT2 in YUL. That alone is very expensive to offer!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2228 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 18):
I may have not heard correctly, based it on a report on CTV News Oct 2.

Gotta love the media-- yup yup...     



StudeDave



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1957 times:

Here's a bit more 'bout the folks in B'Ham and Whatcom County upset with more air traffic~

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012...lingham-airport-neighbors-get.html

Nice pic of the airport, too!!!


StudeDave



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently onlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 726 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

Gotta love the previous news link at the bottom of that story:

"Lynden family's dog found after nearly two months in the wild" 

Read more here:
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012...t-neighbors-get.html#storylink=cpy

yep ... this town airport is going to replace Canada's Pacific gateway ... Vancouver!!!   


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 18):
The lack of any action on part of the Canadian government is marginalizing Vancouver

The major action on the part of the Canadian government a decade or more ago in negotiating the Open Skies agreement with the USA is what has allowed YVR to expand the way it has. Any airline, Canadian or American, can fly into YVR from any point in the USA, if they feel there is a market to serve. If a given market is not being served, the airlines obviously have concluded it is not worth trying to serve.

Your statement is therefore refuted.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
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