tcavanguard From Canada, joined Feb 2009, 4 posts, RR: 0 Posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4814 times:
My son is doing a university project and would to compare airlines and how the top 10 or 20 list has changed so dramatically these past number of years (OK so he is an airline nerd like his old man!). We've looked for ages in Google, with all sorts of different combinations in our query, but can't seem to find an annual list from the 60s and 70s. We can get the 90s and up btw...
varsity From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 184 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4765 times:
I think that the World Almanac used to have that info every year. I'm not sure if/where you could find sequential editions of that book all in one place.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22047 posts, RR: 51 Reply 2, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4747 times:
Give IATA a shout.
Try their press office in Montreal. They might have access to the the data directly, or point you in the right direction.
514-874-0202 x3413
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
OzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4681 posts, RR: 23 Reply 3, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4420 times:
flightglobal.com has a very good history/archive section. Might be some helpful info on there.
simairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 813 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4324 times:
I think I have a U.S. 1970 list, but I'm certain it was:
1) Aeroflot (by leaps and bounds)
2) United
3) ??? (likely American?)
You might also consider contacting Air Transport World--I'm not sure when they started maintaining traffic statistics.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6624 posts, RR: 17 Reply 6, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4096 times:
I have two books titled "Air BP Book of IATA Airlines" one of which gives data for 1957, the other for 1961.
The data given is:
Aircraft Operating (Number by Type)
Aircraft on Order (Number by Type)
Passengers Carried (Number)
Cargo Carried (Tonnes)
Mail Carried (Tonnes)
Revenue Tonne Kilometers
Employees (Number)
Take-offs and Landings (Number)
If one or two sets of this data are useful to your son (Revenue Tonne Kilometers and/or Passengers Carried perhaps?), I will be happy to list out the top 10 or 20 from the around 80 IATA members at that time. But note it is IATA members only and there is no Revenue Passenger Kilometers data.
The books were published by "The Aviation Service of the British Petroleum Company Limited". Their main content is a side-on drawing of an aircraft of each IATA member to illustrate the airline's (then) current livery plus a one paragraph resume of the airline's operations in English, French, German and Spanish, with one page devoted to each airline. The price of the oldest book was 3s 6p or, in today's money, £0.175. But as far as I am concerned today they are priceless.
Twenty North American airlines are covered in the 1961 book. To give some idea of the data coverage they are:
Aeronaves de Mexico
American Airlines
Braniff International Airways
Canadian Pacific Air Lines
Chicago Helicopter Airways
Delta Air Lines
Eastern Air Lines
Empressa Consolidada Cubana de Aviacion
Flying Tiger Line
Guest Aerovias Mexico
National Airlines
New York Airways
Northwest Airlines
Pan American Grace Airways
Pan American World Airways
Quebecair
Seaboard World Airlines
Trans-Canada Airlines
Trans World Airlines
United Air Lines
Bobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4057 times:
Where was EAL in this. I remember in the 1970s they pitched themselves as the largest airline in the free world. Of course that probably wasnt RPMs, but just overall boardings.
Eastern were fifth largest with 749,413,000 RTKs, less than three-quarters the size of the top three. But this was early 60s. A lot might have changed during the next decade.
Bobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3851 times:
There is no definition in my books. Nevertheless I am pretty certain that it is a measure of passengers plus all cargo. Certainly with the relatively small holds of aircraft in relatively small aircraft that were in relatively small fleets in days when a relatively small proportion of international trade did not travel by surface transport, the possibility of airlines like UA, PA and AA generating over 1,000,000,000 RTKs of cargo business seems most improbable.
Here in the UK the Civil Aviation Authority still publishes this data today. In their report for 2011 they state that British airlines sold 50,218,000,000 revenue tonne kilometers in 2011. In the Appendix to the report these are two of the definitions:
"Tonne-kilometres available are calculated by multiplying the number of tonnes available for the carriage of revenue load (passengers, freight and mail) on each flight stage by the stage distance."
"Tonne-kilometres used are calculated by multiplying the number of tonnes of revenue load carried on each flight stage by the stage distance."
Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 10): RPK would be the metric version of RPM not RTK. I am right?
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 12, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3420 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 11): Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 10):
Isnt RTK a measure of cargo?
There is no definition in my books. Nevertheless I am pretty certain that it is a measure of passengers plus all cargo.
ATK/RTK data is mainly a cargo statistic and has little relevance for passenger traffic. APK/APM and RPK/RPM are the primary statistics when discussing passenger traffic.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6624 posts, RR: 17 Reply 13, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3026 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12): ATK/RTK data is mainly a cargo statistic and has little relevance for passenger traffic. APK/APM and RPK/RPM are the primary statistics when discussing passenger traffic.
This is true. However of what relevance is passenger traffic to FX, one of the world's largest and most profitable airlines? And most airlines carry revenue generating cargo, passenger baggage and mail as well as passengers on their passenger aircraft. However those airlines also operating cargo aircraft do not normally carry passengers on those aircraft. So RPK only measures part, even if it is a substantial part, of an airline's business.
This is almost certainly why the IATA data I referenced earlier included RTK but excluded RPK. It is also probably why the British CAA Airline Economic Activity Report that can be viewed here:
starts with tables focused on RTK data before moving on to more specific, segmented data such as RPKs.
As an aside, one of the interesting features of the CAA's data linked above is that the second largest British airline measured by RTK's is U2 who only carry passengers and their baggage and do not carry either cargo or mail.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 14, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2965 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 13): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
ATK/RTK data is mainly a cargo statistic and has little relevance for passenger traffic. APK/APM and RPK/RPM are the primary statistics when discussing passenger traffic.
This is true. However of what relevance is passenger traffic to FX, one of the world's largest and most profitable airlines?
I don't get your point. APK/RPK is irrelevant to an all-cargo carrier like FX. That's why I said ATK/RTK data is largely a cargo statistic.
Oh please! It really is not that complicated is it?
Please note the question asked by the thread opener. Note that he and his son have searched diligently for historic RPK or RPM data. Note that they have failed to find such data. Note that neither you, I nor any other a-netter has yet pointed to where they can find such historic data.
So my first point is that I identified a source from which I can provide historic data that does not include RPK but does provide RTK (as well as the other parameters that I have listed in Reply 5) if this (or any of the other parameters) should prove to be useful.
I have also pointed out that when you look at the commercial aviation market, its development and how it has changed as both IATA and the British CAA do, RTKs enables you to look and make comparisons across the whole airline industry and not just the most important segment, the passenger-carrying sector. I did this because such data is or can be made available and because it might meet the needs of the Thread Opener's son and his thesis.
So please note the above as well as what I very clearly said in my first Reply, namely:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 6): If one or two sets of this data are useful to your son (Revenue Tonne Kilometers and/or Passengers Carried perhaps?), I will be happy to list out the top 10 or 20 from the around 80 IATA members at that time. But note it is IATA members only and there is no Revenue Passenger Kilometers data.
Does AW&ST have an archives open to the public. I remember as a kid, they used to publish those statistics ever 4 issues, (or once a month). I did a quick search but couldn't find them.
Perhaps if your son checked the university library, they may have old issues stored on archive media like microfiche.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
tcavanguard From Canada, joined Feb 2009, 4 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2511 times:
Sorry, I thought I the info was easily available out there in cyberspace!
Thanks VV701, I would appreciate it if you could list the top airlines based on RTK and pax. Its fairly easy to get the same data for airlines in 2011, so we can compare the growth and the change in the mix of the top airlines. And you're right, RTK or RTM would make sense to understand an airline's size.
Also longhauler, I've recommended my son check some back issues of AW&ST, which as you point out, usually has quarterly and annual listings.
Fun to watch that even an innocuous string like this can get b*tching back and forth!
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6468 posts, RR: 8 Reply 18, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2364 times:
The Wikipedia articles for a lot of US airlines include RPMs for a selection of years 1951-1975. Suspect United was the second airline in the world, after Aeroflot, for every year 1962 until 1975 at least.
Air Transport World listed RPMs starting around 1964. I doubt the World Almanac ever did, but I'll check. The library may still have the back issues of ATW-- let me know if you want me to check on that.
By the way: is it agreed that tables of revenue tonne-kilometers for all airlines include cargo only?
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 19, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2347 times:
Quoting timz (Reply 18): The Wikipedia articles for a lot of US airlines include RPMs for a selection of years 1951-1975. Suspect United was the second airline in the world, after Aeroflot, for every year 1962 until 1975 at least.
I remember UA advertising for quite a while that they were the "largest airline in the free world" (meaning except Aeroflot). That was ironic since UA was strictly a U.S. domestic carrier then, except for the very short SEA-YVR, and somewhat later (sometime in the mid-60s) ORD-YYZ routes.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 20, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2310 times:
Quoting timz (Reply 18): Air Transport World listed RPMs starting around 1964.
Agree, if you had access to the ATW annual airline survey issue it would answer all the questions. Found the 2000 tables here (Purdue University site) which include both RPK and FTK (freight ton km), among many other measurements. http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/at/cours...d%20airline%20traffic%20tables.pdf
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6624 posts, RR: 17 Reply 21, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2070 times:
Quoting tcavanguard (Reply 17): I would appreciate it if you could list the top airlines based on RTK and pax
Here goes:
In 1961 there were 90 members of IATA. Of these 21 airlines flew 1,000,000 plus passengers in that year. They were in size order with actual 1961 passenger numbers:
1. United Air Lines: 10,924,820
2. Eastern Air Lines: 9,024,541
3. American Airlines: 8,056,105
4. Trans World Airlines: 4,935,664
5. British European Airways: 4,355,442 (Oct. '73 operationaly merged with BOAC: 852,541)
6. Trans Canada Airlines: 3,763,720
7. Delta Air Lines: 3,655,105
8. Pan American World Airways: 3,604,113
9. Air France: 3,274,306
10. Braniff International Airways: 2,323,549
11. Scandinavian Airlines System: 1,964,797
12. Northwest Airlines: 1,723,667
13. National Ailines: 1,631,833
14. Deutsche Lufthansa: 1,386,633
15. KLM: 1,337,501
16. Alitalia: 1,528,175
17. Swissair: 1,219,168
18. Aeronaves Nacionades Columbia (AVIANCA): 1,138,339
19. Japan Air Lines: 1,132,948
20. Trans Australia Airlines: 1,127,886
21. Iberia: 1,114,545
In terms of Revenue Tonne Kilometers the smallest of the airlines listed above is again Iberia. However by this measure Iberia was only the thirtieth largest IATA airline in 1961. So bedlow are listed in order the thirty largest IATA airlines of 1961 measured by Revenue Tonne Kilometers.
1. United Air Lines: 1,278,987,000
2. Pan American World Airways: 1,158,571,000
3. American Airlines: 1,085,313,000
4. Trans World Airlines: 921,105,000
5. Eastern Air Lines: 749,413,000
6. Air France: 556,587,000
7. BOAC: 507,464,000
8. Trans Canada Airlines: 404,157,000
9. KLM: 383,181,000
10. Delta Air Lines: 355,661,000
11. Northwest Airlines: 266,746,000
12. Scandinavian Airlines System: 257,337,000
13. British European Airways: 235,323,000
14. Deutsche Lufthansa: 225,634,000
15. Alitalia: 211,066,000
16. Braniff International Airways: 200,669,000
17. Swissair: 163,724,000
18. Qantas: 161,761,000
19. Sabena: 154,739,000
20. Japan Air Lines: 152,214,000
21. National Ailines: 125,625,000
22. Flying Tiger Line: 97,445,000
23. Trans Australia Airlines: 96,870,000
24. Canadian Pacific Air Lines: 94,881,000
25. Aeronaves Nacionades Columbia (AVIANCA): 87,656,000
EASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 384 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1953 times:
When I joined Eastern in 68, we were the largest airline in the free world by carrying the most pax. I believe the Shuttle pax gave us that right.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 23, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1849 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 21): In 1961 there were 90 members of IATA. Of these 21 airlines flew 1,000,000 plus passengers in that year. They were in size order with actual 1961 passenger numbers:
Came across the following ICAO data for 1961 ranking traffic by country (excluding the then-Soviet Union and China which weren't ICAO members then). Would be interesting to see how the top 30 list would differ today. Detailed data by country on subsequent pages (first letter of country names seems to be cut off). http://legacy.icao.int/icao/en/nr/1962/pio196204_e.pdf
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6468 posts, RR: 8 Reply 26, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1234 times:
Flight has a table of RPMs and RPKs for many airlines for 1964 on page 766 of the 4 Nov 1965 issue. Doesn't show Aeroflot, so its biggest are UA-TW-PA-AA-EA-BA.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 27, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1151 times:
Quoting timz (Reply 26): Flight has a table of RPMs and RPKs for many airlines for 1964 on page 766 of the 4 Nov 1965 issue. Doesn't show Aeroflot, so its biggest are UA-TW-PA-AA-EA-BA.
Don't recall if they had such a table every year.
I thought about those Flight International statistical summaries also, but couldn't find one with 1967 data (looking at 1968 issues).
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