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Western Airlines 'Londoner'?  
User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1035 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 9959 times:

Western Airlines flew a single DC-10-30, N821L on a short-lived DEN - London service in 1981. I have very little info on the cabin configuration of this aircraft, interior design, etc. Was there a dedicated business class cabin? Did they opt for a sleeper-type seat in First? I have googled this topic but there seems to be very little in the way of a photographic record (that I could find). This is surprising, since it must have been a big deal for them. Any help or info is appreciated.

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 9874 times:

I was young back then, but I remember it being a Teal color, and my Dad (who was a WAL AMT) told me it was the Air New Zealand interior. I got a pic somewhere, but that's what I remember. I forgot to add, I also think it was in a standard F/C Y setup wit 2-2-2 and 2-5-2. Flew on it once, and saw it a few times in the hangar ( Back then my Dad you to take us to work to look at airplanes ) Sorry, I could not be more helpful.

[Edited 2012-10-05 11:58:15]

User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 9808 times:

Thanks for the info. (Judging from your s/n, I'm not surprised you could answer this). The TE cabin has been photographed here and there, but I thought it would be cool to find one when it was flying for WA. I believe there was a small 2x2x2 F class up front, with manual legrests. It did indeed have a bluish seat cover. The economy cabin was 2-5-2 in various yellow, green and blue wavy patterns. At the time WA's own DC-10s were leaning to the orange red and purple 70s look.

User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 9721 times:

Also WALs DC-10 F/C had the Big Swivel Seat, that could be turned. I still remember seeing guys playing cards and watching Jonny Carson in F/C while it was on overnight checks. Funny, I still have 3 Y seat sets in that color ( My Dad bought a bunch of seats when WAL upgraded the seats, and made a club house with them ) I could only get to a seat cushion to photo the seat bottom from my storage shed.



User currently offlinegreggariouspdx From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 9610 times:
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WA also flew HNL-ANC-LGW for a short time. I lived in Juneau, AK for a time in the 1980's and scored an upgrade to F from the JNU Station manager on the ANC-LGW legs, which flew almost empty. I remember F as 2x2x2 in blue leather with manual footrests. While not all that special by today's lie-flat standards, I also remember it being a comfortable experience with great, personalized service. On the return LGW-ANC segment, I had F all to myself and slept most of the way.

User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2572 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 9153 times:

Quoting greggariouspdx (Reply 4):
WA also flew HNL-ANC-LGW for a short time.

Probably the worse route decision of the jet era. No passengers, double crews. DC10-10 equipment.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 9068 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 2):
At the time WA's own DC-10s were leaning to the orange red and purple 70s look.

Speaking of Western in the '70s (1976).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jw-jets/4835991649/in/pool-1135129@N25/


User currently offlineWALmsp From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week ago) and read 8986 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 2):
At the time WA's own DC-10s were leaning to the orange red and purple 70s look.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fenrich Family



Pic of WA's first DC-10-10 from my late-father...



In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
User currently offlineviscount630 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8377 times:
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I was actually interviewed to be a Customer Services Rep' for WA at LGW not long after the service started. The person doing the interview did not exactly sell the idea to me as even she was despondant about future loads, although she said part of the new job would be to promote the service more in Europe and give it a badly needed boost. I was quite relieved not to to be offered it!  Wow!


RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12395 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8216 times:

When did WA stop using DC10s? Did they survive as far as the DL merger; I have seen photos of DL DC10s, but I think these were from the early 70s, when DL acquired DC10s to cover for the late arrival of their first Tristars.

User currently offlineviscount630 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8094 times:
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Quoting kaitak (Reply 9):
When did WA stop using DC10s? Did they survive as far as the DL merger; I have seen photos of DL DC10s, but I think these were from the early 70s, when DL acquired DC10s to cover for the late arrival of their first Tristars.

Several WA DC-10s were taken over in the DL merger. The earlier DL DC-10s were leased from UA in the early 70s to help cover late L1011 deliveries (I think?) For a while, DL was the only operator of all wide-bodies then available, B747, DC-10 and L1011.



RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8046 times:

Western used the DC-10 till the end. In fact the Last Western flight was a DC-10 from HNL to LAX. It took off as Western, and Landed as Delta. I think it was flt 568 ( could be wrong on the flt number, it been a long time ago). Delta then used the DC-10 to HNL untill around 1990ish. I was there on the Last Delta DC-10 flt out of HNL, it was ship 783 - N907WA. The easy way to tell the old Delta DC-10 from the WAL DC-10 in Delta service is the black nose. If the whole nose is black and swoops back to the stripe ( like the picture I took), then its a Wally bird. If the nose is white with a small black dot, is the old Delta DC-10. HTH

It was neat working the same acft that my Dad had worked on, and being able to compair the DC-10 and L-1011 side by side. Both were Good aircraft, and I miss both of them, and I miss HNL.

One last time, a sad day for me.
N907WA


[Edited 2012-10-06 02:29:18]

[Edited 2012-10-06 02:41:16]

User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6714 times:

If you include the one-off DC-10-30 N821L with the New Zealand cabin, WA had a total of four cabin designs in the DC-10s during their life 1973-87. The pic from WALmsp is the delivery interior, and at the time they had that geometric pattern that WAL employes called 'rainbow' . The F class was a bright red - very attractive actually - and was probably Hawaii-inspired. From what I know, the red and blue design that N901wa posted was adopted fleet-wide in F class sometime in the 1970s. Somewhere I have a picture of the economy cabin of a Boeing 720B from that period, and it was a red/orange thing. I was told by a former WA f/a that the DC-10s eventually got the same treatment. I think the idea was a Mexican fiesta look, but of course the 1970s were know for the bright cabin colors. Shortly before the DL merger, WA had opted for a more conservative blue and grey look inside (as others have mentioned). I'm told that DL operated those -10s in the WA cabin design, despite painting all of them in the widget very quickly. However, WA featured had featured those 'carpeted' designs on the real bulkheads of both F and economy which featured the big red 'W' prominently, and these were removed by DL. Anecdotally I was told that an employee in LAX maintenance took one home with him (after removal from the aircraft), and was terminated by DL.

User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6572 times:

Didn't that route start with a 707, before switching to a DC-10?

User currently offlineogshelly From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6128 times:

Whenever I hear or read about Western Airlines, I remember the beautiful wide body painted white with the big red W that crashed early in the morning in Mexico city's airport. It was a shock to many, as it was the early bird arriving from LAX. The pilot was flying his last flight prior to retirement, rest in peace, he perished in that accident. It was back in the 70's, I was in college. My apologies if I change gears.

User currently onlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 889 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

Seeing the economy cabin of the DC-10 with only 8 abreast looks very comfortable. The lack of Overhead bins over the center seats really opens up the cabin as well. When K started with NW there weren't OH bins in the center, either, but there was a strange garment bag hanging mechanism that went up into the ceiling at doot 3. Does anybody know if WA had that as well?

User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5464 times:

Quoting cschleic (Reply 13):
Didn't that route start with a 707, before switching to a DC-10?

As far as I can tell, Western had disposed of all their 707s before the LGW routes started. They acquired the ex-NZ DC-10-30 specifically for the DEN-LGW route and used the DC-10-10 on the HNL-ANC-LGW route. If memory correct, the DEN-LGW flights operated LAX-LAS-DEN-LGW.


User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5354 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
As far as I can tell, Western had disposed of all their 707s before the LGW routes started.

I was thinking back that they leased a 707 short term until the DC-10 started service, but could be wrong.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5233 times:

Quoting cschleic (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
As far as I can tell, Western had disposed of all their 707s before the LGW routes started.

I was thinking back that they leased a 707 short term until the DC-10 started service, but could be wrong.

To launch a new route like that with a 707 would have been a big mistake, as everyone expected a widebody on transatlantic routes then. I can't think of any carriers still using narrowbodies on US-Europe routes then except Icelandair and probably a few charter operators.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3078 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5212 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
As far as I can tell, Western had disposed of all their 707s before the LGW routes started. They acquired the ex-NZ DC-10-30 specifically for the DEN-LGW route and used the DC-10-10 on the HNL-ANC-LGW route. If memory correct, the DEN-LGW flights operated LAX-LAS-DEN-LGW.

Everything you stated is accurate, I just reviewed some old WA timetables and you are 100% correct, good memory!



Rule number One, NEVER underestimate the other guys stupidity - In honor of the mayor!
User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4920 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

The Western DC-10's were called "DC-10 Space Ships". Was that because they offered more pitch in Y like AA did with MRTC?


Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4876 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5054 times:

Quoting cschleic (Reply 17):
I was thinking back that they leased a 707 short term until the DC-10 started service, but could be wrong.

I don't think so. I recall seeing a picture of the inaugural flight, and it showed the DC-10 with "The Londoner" markings on the side of the nose.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4949 times:

Wow CF-CPI you are bringing back memorries. I know the guy, and lucky he got in trouble, but he didn't loose his job   I know of 3 surviving W Panels, and I wish I had one.
Hey Prost, I wanna say they did have the closet at 3 L/R in the cross way fwd side like the MD-11 had. I will check my WAL DC-10 books in my rollaway at work when I get back. It might be awhile. But I am sure it did. In fact the part nbr for the drive motor for the hanger on the MD-11 was the same part nbr on the MD-11, and came in a WAL box  
Its a shame Western canceled the order for the 767. The Model I saw looked good in the W paint  


User currently offlinelemonkitty From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 130 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4929 times:
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Here is the timetable showing "The Londoner" service..



I met my wife on Airliners.Net!!!!
User currently offlineAY104 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 505 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4850 times:

Quoting Prost (Reply 15):
Seeing the economy cabin of the DC-10 with only 8 abreast looks very comfortable. The lack of Overhead bins over the center seats really opens up the cabin as well. When K started with NW there weren't OH bins in the center, either, but there was a strange garment bag hanging mechanism that went up into the ceiling at doot 3. Does anybody know if WA had that as well?

I don't think Western had the garment bag mechanism, although I worked for them at YVR from 1975 to 1987, when we merged with DL.
Exciting times in the 70s (can't remember the exact date). When I started with WAL at YVR in 1975, we had a daily LAX "Spaceship" service. You are right, the 8-abreast seating was very comfortable. About the same size seat as a 737 F-Class seat, maybe a bit narrower.

The excitement continued, when we were awarded the YVR-HNL route. DC10, daylight flight there and back. The 8-abreast seating was great for the 5hour flight. Non-revving, when we couldn't get in F, was still a most comfortable flight in Y. A couple of times, I even had the middle seat, but it was still comfortable. The centre group of 4 seats was more like 2 pairs of seats, with about a foot of space between the 2 pairs. What luxury! And the meals were excellent as well. I remember coming back from HNL, a dinner service, and in Y there was a choice of Mahi-Mahi and another entree as well. Delicious!

The HNL service also had complimentary Mai-Tais, served from a "Steaming Volcano" set up on one of the service trolleys. The "steam" being made by dry ice. Those flights were always lots of fun, and they had fantastic crews as well.
F-Class had wonderful service, menus, and a vivid blue and red porcelain. There were also special wicker glass holders, for hot after dinner coffee drinks prepared by the flight attendants.

Although we enjoyed working for Western, and travelling on Western, I don't think any of us really realized at the time how good we had it. Things have changed so much since then, including the behaviour of the travelling public.

I remember we also had a YVR-PDX flight, twice daily, which continued on to SFO or LAX. The flight at 11:30 was admittedly over the lunch hour, and we had complaints that there was no meal. It was only a 45min flight. Still, Western ended up providing a small snack tray at one point with little sandwiches that were distributed with the beverage service. We did not even have competition on that route, yet Western wanted to provide the service. At least until the 80s when times started to get bad.

I apologize for getting off the topic. Please forgive an old guy and his ramblings! It is a pity that the Londoner service never proved a success. There was also a "Canadian" service, when Western inaugurated service to Vancouver in the early 70s, with a special tea service.

Great thread this, with all the memories!

Cheers,
AY104



The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4973 posts, RR: 21
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4948 times:

Quoting AY104 (Reply 24):


Please forgive an old guy and his ramblings!

Nothing to forgive! Great story, it's the insight of experiences such as yours that make this site what it is. Thanks for sharing.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4870 times:

Quoting AY104 (Reply 24):
There was also a "Canadian" service, when Western inaugurated service to Vancouver in the early 70s, with a special tea service.

Western's YVR service started a little earlier - sometime in 1967. It was part of a batch of new Canada-USA route awards announcd in 1966 which also included CP's new YVR-SFO route which started in January 1967.

These July 1967 720B photos were taken at YVR not long after their service started.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tom Grant
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tom Grant



The closest Western timetable I can find is August 1968 and by then they had 4 daily 720B departures from YVR - 2 nonstops to LAX, 1 to SFO that continued to LAX, and 1 to PDX that also continued to LAX. A couple of flights continued beyond LAX to points like SAN and PHX.

Quoting AY104 (Reply 24):
I remember we also had a YVR-PDX flight, twice daily, which continued on to SFO or LAX. The flight at 11:30 was admittedly over the lunch hour, and we had complaints that there was no meal. It was only a 45min flight. Still, Western ended up providing a small snack tray at one point with little sandwiches that were distributed with the beverage service. We did not even have competition on that route, yet Western wanted to provide the service. At least until the 80s when times started to get bad.

I remember Western got into some minor trouble with the Canadian government over the YVR-PDX route sometime after it started. In most cases, if a U.S. carrier was awarded a transborder route, they could continue beyond the U.S. point to any of their other U.S. cities where they had traffic rights. At some point Western announced a schedule change and showed the YVR-PDX flight continuing to either LAS or PHX (forget which) instead of LAX. They had to cancel those plans as they'd overlooked that the Canada-U.S. bilateral agreement that covered the YVR-PDX route specified that any YVR-PDX flights had to continue to either SFO or LAX. From those points they could tag-on other U.S. points but not from PDX.

I remember one Western YVR-PDX-LAX flight a couple of years after they began YVR service. The 720B had such tremendous performance, especially on the short YVR-PDX sector. It was Boeing's hot-rod of that era. Huge contrast with UA's turbojet JT3C-powered 720s that UA operated on some YVR-SEA flights then. They always seemed under-powered even on relatively short flights, while the turbofan JT3D-powered 720B with about 40% more thrust gave you the impression it could easily take off on 2 engines.

Not many U.S. carriers matched Western's inflight service.

[Edited 2012-10-06 16:12:25]

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4876 posts, RR: 43
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4986 times:

Quoting AY104 (Reply 24):

Thanks for that, and I agree completely. Western's service was great, and very unique!

I remember the Smoking Volcano that they wheeled down the aisle as they were serving complimentary Mai-Tais ... in Economy! They did it on the B707s and B720s as well, as I also flew them LAX-HNL on a B707 (all Y class) and a B720 from HNL-SAN-LAX.

Sadly the "younger folk" on here will never know the pleasure of flying in the United States before de-regulation. In those days when fares were regulated, the only "edge" airlines had was service. And believe it or not, I have had superb in-flight service that was better than most international carriers on United, American, Continental, etc !!!

Heck, I even remember getting a basket of sandwiches and complimentary white wine on a Republic Airlines DC-9 flight from BIS-MSP!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineAY104 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 505 posts, RR: 6
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4943 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
Western's YVR service started a little earlier - sometime in 1967. It was part of a batch of new Canada-USA route awards announcd in 1966 which also included CP's new YVR-SFO route which started in January 1967.

Thanks, Viscount724. Soon after my post, I remembered that I flew Western in 1967 or 1968 to SFO! And the Canadian service was called "Royal Canadian". I remember that the flight YVR-SFO in the lt

Yes, the PDX flight had to continue to another city. Also, when Western acquired the YVR-GEG route when FL pulled out, it had to continue. Of course, with DL and WA it was to SLC, where the FL route was to DEN. Hope my facts are right, I'm afraid my memory isn't what it used to be!

I remember flying YVR-SFO on Canadian Pacific and CPAir as well. As good as Western was, I have to admit that there is no carrier I have ever flown on -- Y or J or F - that could beat Canadian Pacific/CP Air in those days. Sorry to get off topic.

The only carrier in more recent years that reminded me a little of Western was Reno Air. Sadly, it is no longer around. I had some wonderful flights YVR-RNO with them.

Cheers,
AY104



The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
User currently onlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1070 posts, RR: 7
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4963 times:

Quoting cschleic (Reply 13):
Didn't that route start with a 707, before switching to a DC-10?

I was a DC-8 F/O and captain for Arrow Air from early 1982 to 1985, and I have remember flying with crews that had operated this flight on a wet lease for Western because WA didn't have any -30 series DC10s. It was short term; I seem to remember three months max and was under an agreement with ALPA until WA could lease/buy a -30, which were in short supply then. The Arrow Air aircraft used on the route were ex-UA DC-8-62s.


User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 832 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4847 times:
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Quoting ogshelly (Reply 14):
Whenever I hear or read about Western Airlines, I remember the beautiful wide body painted white with the big red W that crashed early in the morning in Mexico city's airport. It was a shock to many, as it was the early bird arriving from LAX. The pilot was flying his last flight prior to retirement, rest in peace, he perished in that accident. It was back in the 70's, I was in college. My apologies if I change gears.


I remember that day well, October 31, 1979, because it was my hire date with Mexicana Airlines at LAX. At sad event indeed.

Interestingly, MX leased DC-10-10 N907WA for several years shortly after the merger with Delta. It was the oddball of the MX DC-10 fleet as it was configured 2-5-2 across, where MX DC-10-15s were 3-4-2. It was always a nightmare when we had a swap with that plane and had to move seat assignments around. I remember we lovingly called 907 "The Wally Bird" in honor of Western's mascot!

Tomas SJC



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlinegreggariouspdx From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4796 times:
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As I mentioned in my previous post in this Forum, I lived in Juneau, Alaska at one time and I loved Western's service into the Alaskan Capital. I was usually able to score an upgrade on the 72S flight from Sea-Tac which left at 8pm and provided a full dinner service. Pilots had to be specially trained to fly into Juneau and only 2 approaches were possible before you would overfly to Fairbanks. This happened to me a couple of times - the approach into Juneau is terrifying in bad weather. The return flight to Sea-Tac was a full breakfast service - even in Y you would receive a hot, delicious meal. After the merger with DL, the Juneau service remained until 1992, when it went seasonal and then disappeared. The DL flights(often on ex-WA planes) were OK, but the service lacked the warmth of Western's gang. Still, they were superior to AS's now terrible service.

User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1985 posts, RR: 6
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4579 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 20):
The Western DC-10's were called "DC-10 Space Ships". Was that because they offered more pitch in Y like AA did with MRTC?

No, it was just a tradename. Spaceship as in NASA. It was space age, as it was Western's first and only wide body jet. American's DC-10's had just as much "space" if not more, than WA's. AA had the coach lounge with the stand up bar, and the pitch was at least 36 inches in coach, 8 across. I don't remember Western having a coach lounge in their 10's and the first one I flew on was in 1973, as I remember, Flight 500, that operated HNL-LAX-MSP. The first time I took the flight was a night coach in First from LAX to MSP arriving in MSP around 6 am. I also took the same flight several times from HNL to MSP, each time connecting to an OZ DC-9 that left MSP at 700am and arrived in CID at 743am or thereabouts. It was the quickest red eye way to fly from LA to CID and get me to the office in West Liberty by 900 am. It left HNL about 300pm and left LAX around 100am, plus, if you originated at LAX, you got to fly in the FN/F cabin for the same as the Y jt fare, from LAX to CID.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3078 posts, RR: 5
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4584 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 32):
American's DC-10's had just as much "space" if not more, than WA's. AA had the coach lounge with the stand up bar, and the pitch was at least 36 inches in coach, 8 across. I don't remember Western having a coach lounge in their 10's

Didn't CO have the "Pub" on their DC-10's?



Rule number One, NEVER underestimate the other guys stupidity - In honor of the mayor!
User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4920 posts, RR: 19
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4552 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 33):
Didn't CO have the "Pub" on their DC-10's?

I remember those were heavily advertised on flights from ORD-DEN and ORD-LAX. I can't remember if those flights continued on to HNL or not. They were a lot of fun, but like most aircraft lounges they went away as management started seeing more seats in those spaces.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1985 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4553 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 33):
Didn't CO have the "Pub" on their DC-10's?

Yes, they had lounges in First and Coach on the Tens. On the 747, the lounge, like with other carriers at the time, was upstairs. I flew on the CO DC-10 many times in the early and mid 70's and on their 747's before they dumped them as well, as I lived in Denver for a while. At that time, Continental was known for superior in flight service.

I remember the first Continental 747 when it came to Stapleton, and on the inaugural flight with Bob Six and other VIP's on board, including Colorado Governor, John Love, the aircraft went on to a taxiway or shoulder of one that wouldn't hold the weight, and the gear went right through the pavement while taxiing. I found this newspaper article about the incident. I was a sophomore at CU at the time. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ontinental+boeing+747+denver&hl=en

[Edited 2012-10-07 01:10:48]

User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4492 times:

I remember I was working operations doing the weight and balance for this flight in ANC December 1982 and the flight was full. Problem was the fuel required to make the flight we had to block out 20 seats. So a full flight actually had 20 empty seats. Yes it was not a great A/C for the flight but it was all we had! Back in the day Wally rocked ANC!


Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineFlyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4432 times:

How big was Western at HNL ?

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3078 posts, RR: 5
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4415 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 34):
I can't remember if those flights continued on to HNL

Somewhere I have an advertisement from the 70's advertising the HNL hub, with all their Pacific destinations, plus mentions of the "Pub" service. It never seems to say if they are connected, but both advertised on the same page, I'll scan, you decide.



Rule number One, NEVER underestimate the other guys stupidity - In honor of the mayor!
User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4393 times:

Another WAL offspring here. I flew often as a young kid beginning in the late 60s all the way until about the Delta merger. Western had several flights to HNL from the Bay Area, from SFO, OAK and SJO. I remember our first trip to Honolulu in the late 60s trying to non rev from SFO, but being denied and driving over the OAK where we got on first class. The five of us lol. I certainly remember the Diamond Head punch from the Volcano, being served Pupus and having the food served in Teak wood leaf shaped plates. The FAs wore their muumuus and flowers in their hair. I almost remember the FA being based in Honolulu. I know they had a large work base there, as my mother was given the opp to transfer to HNL or LAX in 1975 after being based at SFO since the 68 or so. I remember us having to fly from HNL back to SJO as SFO was sold out.. Only my mother got placed in First, the rest of us in Coach. I also remember her sharing her dessert with us, a full pineapple scooped out and filled with fruit and ice cream. Imagine that nowadays! Even in todays first?? An entire pineapple?? I ll always remember the film. "Butterflies are Free" with Goldie Hawn.

I still have a few WAL momentos. Playing cards, a china cup imprinted with their 50th anniversay logo. I used to, when I was about 15 or 16 back in the late 70s, used to love just getting on a plane by myself and flying somewhere and returning the same day. Very bold to do back then, but I was mature for my age, and knew how to check space availability and list myself. I used to do that from LAX to MIA, LAX to JFK via SLC, and LAX to HNL and opt for first whenever I could. Really mostly to fly the DC10. I would ride to the airport with my father in the AM, take the little employee shuttle bus that picked employees up at the Century Blvd parking structure, dropped you off outside the terminal (aircraft side) and go directly into the gate area. The last time I flew WAL to HNL was in 1984 and I don't remember the Volcano or the Pineapple nor the muumuus, I think they must have stopped the Hawaii branding at that point. i just remember traditional breakfast and dinner service. Haagen dazs ice cream sundaes in a glass container was the dessert after dinner.

Now that somebody brought up Royal Canadian services, does anybody else remember the timetables having a tiny little branding with RC for their Canada flights, and a tiny little Bird of Paradise insignia for the Hawaii flights? Very sublte, much like the old TWA timetables having the movie projector image on their "movie flights".

good times.


User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1985 posts, RR: 6
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4276 times:

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 37):
How big was Western at HNL ?

When? In the 1973-1976 era, they had two DC-10 flights a days from LAX; a 720B that operated HNL-SJC-OAK-HNL on some days of the week, and on others HNL-OAK-SJC-HN; and one DC-10 from SFO. During some of the period there as a a DC-10 ANC-HNL, and a flight from SAN, operated with either the Ten or the 720B. The 720B on this route was an all coach airplane for some of the period, and it was one or the only, or the only daily narrow body flight to HNL from the Mainland. United had DC-8-61 service to ITO, and some weekend only flights to HNL from either LAX or SFO. Pan Am still had a 707-321B a few days of the week that originated in MNL that operated via GUM, and other days in Saigin. I flew it from GUM to HNL two weeks before the fall of Saigon in 1975. That flight was the worst international flight I have ever been on and the fact it was five or six hours late didn't help.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4876 posts, RR: 43
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4192 times:

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 39):
Now that somebody brought up Royal Canadian services, does anybody else remember the timetables having a tiny little branding with RC for their Canada flights

Yes, it was a totem pole, wasn't it? They also had a sombrero for the Mexican flights.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 40):
The 720B on this route was an all coach airplane for some of the period, and it was one or the only, or the only daily narrow body flight to HNL from the Mainland.

A couple years later, I flew with them in February 1978. Almost all flights to HNL were DC-10s. Being the airliner geek I was, I had to arrange my schedule to fly on a narrow body. I flew LAX-HNL in an all Y class B707, (well techically it was Y/K) but there was no F section as the seats on the left wide went right to the front door. Returning HNL-SAN on a B720B, it was configured F/Y/K. I stayed with the aircraft to LAX, but I don't think it was the same flight number, just a local flight.

The SAN flight was a regular flight, but I recall the B707 all Y class, was an "extra" flight, as it was busy season and most flights were full. (I was non-reving)



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently onlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 889 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

When I was a child, I was crazy about airports and airlines. We lived under the approach path to LAX, and by age six, I could identify all of the airlines and aircraft types from my front porch. My grandparents lived in Vancouver, and Western Airlines was the only airline to fly non-stop between the two cities. I remember hanging out in the gate area looking at everything that I could, and being mesmerized by Western Airlines illuminated 'Spaceship' seat map. It was like any seatmap you'd see on a website now a fuselage with the nose of the aircraft on the top, the tail on the bottom. The thing that I couldn't figure out, though, was that the wings were truncated, just stubs that stuck out a bit from the fuselage. So...with the way the fuselage looked (rocketship) and the wings being like 'fins' on a rocket or missile, I thought Western Airlines was the first airline to have space travel.

User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3889 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 32):
Quoting type-rated (Reply 20):
The Western DC-10's were called "DC-10 Space Ships". Was that because they offered more pitch in Y like AA did with MRTC?

No, it was just a tradename. Spaceship as in NASA. It was space age,

Reminds me that CP called their DC-8-63s "Spacemaster" in their early years of service, but that was "Space" as in room and spaciousness (although they were no more spacious than earlier DC-8 models), not in the NASA context of the word.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 40):
Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 37):
How big was Western at HNL ?

When? In the 1973-1976 era, they had two DC-10 flights a days from LAX; a 720B that operated HNL-SJC-OAK-HNL on some days of the week, and on others HNL-OAK-SJC-HN; and one DC-10 from SFO. During some of the period there as a a DC-10 ANC-HNL, and a flight from SAN, operated with either the Ten or the 720B.

In September 1973, Western's HNL departures were as follows (all 720B or 707 except one daily DC-10 each to LAX and SFO). Most days they had 10 departures from HNL then.

ANC - 4 x week
LAX - 4 x daily (including 1 DC-10), plus a 5th flight Saturday only
SAN - 1 x daily (plus 2 extra flights Mon/Sat only)
SFO - 3 x daily )including 1 DC-10)
SJC - 1 x daily

I think they were mostly 720B as they only had 5 707-347Cs (they had ordered another 5 but those were cancelled before delivery and went to the Royal Canadian Air Force).


User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3776 times:

Great memories. Hnl service was called the islander if I remember right, Mexico was fiesta flts. Also if I remember right meal service was chk, steak or fish. I remember the coconut crusted chk was soo good. Also the color books for the kids and the captins halfway sweepstakes. Still have a coloring book, and a few plates, western worlds   I gotta find it, but I got a great picture of a WAP DC-10 with a lei drapped on the nose in OGG. Western will always be The Only Way to Fly  

User currently offlinePacificF27 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3761 times:
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Was on a Western 720B from SEA to SFO in the late sixties--my seatmate said "Delta has planes just like this but they call them Convairs." I cringed!


EVA is tops across the Pacific!
User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

I believe the London flight came from Denver. WE also had a flight that was a dc10 IAH-YEG-ANC connecting with a 727 going FAI-SCC, this was the "Oil City Run". Along with another dc10 going to and from HNL.

Lets see if I remember this right in ANC we had what we called "The Midnight Cluster F**k"....
We had flights coming in from SEA-JNU-FAI-PDX-YEG-HNL-SLC-Denver and flights going to the same plus LON....

WA had 450 employees in ANC ground handling all the international carriers that used to come in land here for fuel and cargo..... We had 3 WA "Spaceships" on the ramp at he same time.... It was a glorious time indeed...



Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10316 posts, RR: 14
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3453 times:

When I worked at SLC, some of the WA guys told me that the WA "Londoner" service had problems leaving DEN as they had to block off quite a few seats, just to get the weight down at DEN's altitude to they could take off......unfortunately, the removed enough so that the fight was not profitable. Now, I believe they started the service with a DC-10-10 and changed to a -30, so I don't know if they had a problem with the -30 or not. On another note, I thought the -30 that WA leased was from Air Pacific or something like that??


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3415 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 48):
Now, I believe they started the service with a DC-10-10 and changed to a -30, so I don't know if they had a problem with the -30 or not.

I doubt a DC-10-10 would have been able to operate DEN-LGW with any type of economic payload. I thought that route began with the DC-10-30 but not certain.

Quoting mayor (Reply 48):
On another note, I thought the -30 that WA leased was from Air Pacific or something like that??

It was ex-Air New Zealand. You're thinking of its fairly brief operation for Air Pacific after Western dropped the LGW routes. It was painted in Air Pacific livery and operated by Western on a joint wet-lease basis LAX-HNL-NAN. It operated as a Western flight LAX-HNL and as an Air Pacific flight HNL-NAN using Western crews all the way (possibly some Air Pacific cabin crew, not sure). Western sold the aircraft to AA in 1985.

That aircraft in its various liveries. In the Air Pacific livery you can see a small "Operated by Western Airlines" decal just behind the 2nd door.


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User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10316 posts, RR: 14
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 49):

Ok....the bottom left one is the one I've seen........I saw it at SLC before the DL/WA merger.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinecageyjames From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 34):
Didn't CO have the "Pub" on their DC-10's?

They did at least until 1990 when I flew HNL-CNS-BNE-HNL on their DC-10's. I mostly recall the drunk Aussies all over the airplane.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8028 posts, RR: 54
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

I have always been curious about their "Western International" brand - different logo, different typeface, but never appeared on an aeroplane, just service items et al.

http://images.shopgoodwill.com/122/8-9-2012/sa900051281-en.jpg
http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m-JxWE4xkwrqNtnA1CD7TWA.jpg
http://images.shopgoodwill.com/122/8-9-2012/sa900051281-en.jpg

Anyone know what the story was with this? Btw it definitely predates the Londoner, seemed more to do with Honolulu (but that's domestic, so...?). Thanks.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4876 posts, RR: 43
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 52):
I have always been curious about their "Western International" brand - different logo, different typeface, but never appeared on an aeroplane, just service items et al.

You are right, it pre-dates "The Londoner" by about 13 years.

It looks to appear on the timetables about the same time Hawaii flights were awarded by the CAB, but almost a year before Hawaii flights actually started. I think it was to promote that they were no longer just a "local" carrier ... as with that branding was the tag-line "Alaska to Mexico - Minnesota to the Pacific".



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 832 posts, RR: 2
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3059 times:
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Quoting cedarjet (Reply 52):
I have always been curious about their "Western International" brand - different logo, different typeface, but never appeared on an aeroplane, just service items et al.


I believe this title appeared shortly after the Vancouver BC inaugural in 1967, during the "Indian Head" color scheme and it did carry the same typeface as the titles on the aircraft. Perhaps to promote WA as a truly "International" carrier? Albeit they had served Mexico for years before this marketing ploy.

Tomas SJC



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2980 times:

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 54):
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 52):
I have always been curious about their "Western International" brand - different logo, different typeface, but never appeared on an aeroplane, just service items et al.


I believe this title appeared shortly after the Vancouver BC inaugural in 1967, during the "Indian Head" color scheme and it did carry the same typeface as the titles on the aircraft. Perhaps to promote WA as a truly "International" carrier? Albeit they had served Mexico for years before this marketing ploy.

During that period they were also promoting MEX as a connecting point to Central and South America, and included connecting flights on many other carriers in their timetable. Example of pages from their August 1968 timetable below.
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/wa68/wa68-15.jpg

Although they dropped that "International" reference fairly quickly, at the time the "Londoner" was operating, they did have service to 4 countries other than the U.S. -- Canada, Mexico, U.K. and the Bahamas. They had a tag-on DC-10 MIA-NAS that operated about twice a week during the latter couple of years of their LAX-MIA service that started around 1975 and ended around 1981. The NAS tagon only lasted a couple of years around 1980-81. During that early '80s period they also flew a DC-10 on the very short MIA-FLL tag-on sector (18 nm) which didn't make much sense.


User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 55):
During that early '80s period they also flew a DC-10 on the very short MIA-FLL tag-on sector (18 nm) which didn't make much sense.

Delta had some on the MIA-FLL sector - including L10s and 727s, right up into the early 90s at least. I believe WA had an IAD-JFK add-on as part of flight which originated in SLC. Granted, that's 250 miles, not 18!


User currently offlineWALmsp From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2540 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 56):
I believe WA had an IAD-JFK add-on as part of flight which originated in SLC. Granted, that's 250 miles, not 18!

IIRC, WA also had a DCA-IAD flight because of the perimeter rule.



In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2364 times:

Quoting WALmsp (Reply 57):
Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 56):
I believe WA had an IAD-JFK add-on as part of flight which originated in SLC. Granted, that's 250 miles, not 18!

IIRC, WA also had a DCA-IAD flight because of the perimeter rule.

Yes, in the March 1987 timetable 2 of WA's 3 daily IAD-SLC nonstop 727-200s originated at DCA and flew the 21 nm to IAD.


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