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TSA “Freeze” Security Drill Caught On Camera  
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16545 times:

Caught on camera, TSA security freeze drill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km0awE1Q2HA&feature=player_embedded

95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16560 times:

This was discussed a few weeks back. TSA came out and said there is no such thing as a freeze drill nor is it an approved thing and was looking into it


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1983 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16530 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):

What do you mean that the TSA doesnt do the freeze drill? They do it at LAX numerous times per day.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16490 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):

This was discussed a few weeks back. TSA came out and said there is no such thing as a freeze drill nor is it an approved thing and was looking into it

The local FOX news station in Phoenix reported on it.

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/19...2012/09/30/tsa-drill-at-sky-harbor


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16428 times:

I've been in one. It's annoying. But I see it like a fire drill. Needs to be practiced.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16379 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 4):

Love it or hate it (I hate it) according to QANTAS747-438 he has seen that happen several times in 1 day. If they had fire drills several times a day that would be quite disruptive.


User currently offlineLimaFoxTango From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Jun 2004, 800 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 16287 times:

Happened to me twice in SJU. Couldnt quite figure out what was really going on. As said in the video, it only lasted a few minutes.


You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
User currently offlineUSAIRWAYS321 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 16113 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 4):
I've been in one. It's annoying. But I see it like a fire drill. Needs to be practiced.

Which aspect needs to be practiced - idiots telling people not to move, or passengers standing still? Neither part is practice-worthy.


User currently offlineJetAmericaS80 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 16005 times:

....I've screwed it up a couple times, prancing on through, too busy checking my pairing on my iPhone, in order to make sure I can make a Starbucks run before my next flight. TSA hates me...   

JetA



The Best Buy in the Sky, Treat yourself to Jet America!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 15938 times:

Why does the TSA do this, if true? They are security checkpoint agents, not airport police. WTH?

Their badge doesn't mean diddly squat to me once I pass through security. From that point on, it's the airport police I deal with and take instructions from. They are the ones who enforce the law, not the security screeners.

The TSA do not carry a gun nor carry handcuffs. They are not there to arrest anyone, that's the airport police job, hence why you see a cop at the end of the checkpoint.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 15918 times:

Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 7):

I've only seen it at a checkpoint. I'd probably ignore them if I was already past security.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 15911 times:

Wonder what would happen if a deaf person cannot hear the freeze command and the TSA does not know they are hearing impaired ?

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15889 times:

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 11):

Wonder what would happen if a deaf person cannot hear the freeze command and the TSA does not know they are hearing impaired ?


I would keeping on walking. They touch me, they deal with the airport police on assault charges. But that's just me...



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6826 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15874 times:

I was also thinking about foreigners not speaking good English and not expecting this.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15853 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
I would keeping on walking. They touch me, they deal with the airport police on assault charges. But that's just me...

Bravo, I would applaud that, and i wonder when the general public would all take that stance and say enough is enough


User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15820 times:

This happened to me in 2010 in ATL. Quite unnerving to say the least. I looked around to see if anyone had a gun and was sprinting toward the escalators down to the train! Once we figured out it was a drill everything went back to normal, but I wish their was a was TSA could do it without scaring the crap out of passengers!

User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15819 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
I was also thinking about foreigners not speaking good English and not expecting this.

Suppose they will end up with an 11,000 dollar fine & a little jail time (that will teach those foreigners). No wonder were scaring away the foreign tourists to this country.

Airport Pat-Downs: TSA Says it Can Fine You for Backing Out
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/walki...ine/story?id=12215171#.UG-B2JjBEqM


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15777 times:

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 16):

But have they fined anyone to date yet? My guess is no.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15755 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
But have they fined anyone to date yet? My guess is no.

it is an old article but apparently they collected 1 million in fines
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7806697/...an-cost-you-airports/#.UG-Fu5jBEqM


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15624 times:

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 18):

Thats at the checkpoint itself, not out on the concourses though.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineplateman From United States of America, joined May 2007, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15577 times:

Experienced it at Phoenix too after landing ... when walking past a checkpoint they stopped everyone, with people backing up onto the moving walkways, being dangerous.

I was walking with a former senior ATC person at PHX who I met on plane and was just as confused as me.



"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15542 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Thats at the checkpoint itself, not out on the concourses though.

Well in this article http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/19...2012/09/30/tsa-drill-at-sky-harbor it is quoted as saying

"At least one passenger FOX 10 spoke with said people were scared when the drill took place in the middle of a terminal last week, past the security checkpoint."

So i figure the potential for a fine would also be possible if ignoring the TSA. in this example


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7851 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15460 times:

We talked about this in the PHX aviation thread a while back. It pissed a lot of people off.


我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5703 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15451 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):

Their badge doesn't mean diddly squat to me once I pass through security. From that point on, it's the airport police I deal with and take instructions from. They are the ones who enforce the law, not the security screeners.

TSA can screen you anytime at or past the checkpoint.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 15):
but I wish their was a was TSA could do it without scaring the crap out of passengers!

Ah... but that's the whole point. It's nothing more than obedience training. Scare the people into doing anything for security.

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 16):
TSA Says it Can Fine You for Backing Out

The TSA says a lot of things that aren't true. Legally, there is nothing they can do to detain you if you decide you've had enough and walk away, even if they don't have your information. Even airport cops can't do anything if you simply walk away, because you have committed no crime.

Google John Tyner. He was repeatedly threatened by the FSD at SAN for refusing a pat-down and leaving, yet nothing came of it.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineUSAIRWAYS321 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14711 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
TSA can screen you anytime at or past the checkpoint.

Not arguing with you, but a screening after the checkpoint is a self-admission from the TSA that they didn't do a good enough job to begin with.


User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5579 posts, RR: 28
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15007 times:

I would modestly suggest that we all, each and every one of us, have a duty to vigorously and openly ignore foolishness like this.

A TSA agent tells me to freeze, I tell him to mind his own damned business.

You don't like what I am doing, let's get us a proper, sworn peace officer and have a conversation about probable cause.

These people, and the agency they represent, are utterly, profoundly and perhaps irretrievably out of control.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14664 times:

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 16):
No wonder were scaring away the foreign tourists to this country.

It's probably more to do with having to submit all kinds of information about yourself beforehand, explain where you're staying on the first night, being met off the plane by a surly guy dressed in black with a gun asking you questions like a criminal and taking your picture and fingerprints. "Welcome" to the US, my butt. I simply don't visit as often as I used to.


User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 27, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14891 times:

One of my many beefs with the TSA is the secondary ID verification at the gates. I would love to know how many people they have ever caught in one these checks without proper ID. If they do then as was mentioned earlier, isn't that an admission that they aren't doing the job correctly at the checkpoint.

I do hope there is someone in politics willing to dismantle this obtuse organization. Lack of common sense and a hiring track record causes great concern.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14760 times:

Until US lets go of its silly trauma about security I did my last visit 2003, even before that the immigration procedure was a uncomfortable experience.

I will rather spend my money elsewhere, I liked US like it was 20 years ago, the current US I will stay far away from. The land of the free...yeah right! The land of the manipulated!

The violence in the US outside of the Airport is where more security is needed.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9659 posts, RR: 31
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14441 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 26):
being met off the plane by a surly guy dressed in black with a gun asking you questions like a criminal and taking your picture and fingerprints

yes, and then, when making your next flight, you are treated like a criminal again.

OK, as a foreigner, I am not supposed to understand "freeze". I am not supposed to know what it means. I simply don't care.

As a free person, I am not obliged to follow a "command". Such commands are intended for criminals on the run, in a prison but not in a public airport.

It is OK at check points to open ypour luggage, put laptops separates, take off belts, taking off shoes is already questionable since there are machines for screening shoes available. I have to undergo all that, OK, but I am a customer, i even pay for the service and I have to be treated with respect and dignity.

Yelling "freeze" and expecting the herd of sheep to stand still is humiliating and a disgrace for the USA that they treat their subjects and foreigners as well like they where North koreans. At least in that country they know the difference how to treat guests.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14323 times:

TSA is about showing the public something is done, it is not more secure than before. If the public gets fooled that it is good it works. Sadly the American population seems very easy to manipulate.

User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14169 times:

This has nothing to do with 9/11.

This is a special American thing, showing the relationship between officers and normal citizens and unthinkable in most other countries. You never would see some behaviour like that here.
Also long before the TSA, even in 1989 in LAX I experienced immigration agents that were rude and yelling on nearly every passenger and foreign tourists. It remembered me on drill sergeants.



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14054 times:

I do on occasion get bad treatment on ARN as well, the kind of persons employed in the security there is not my kind of ideal person. I wont say more, because that is not PC.

We live in a time and age where governments overstep their responsibilities by huge margins and most people are fine with it or even applaud it. It really sickens me though, spying on Internet traffic, phone calls screening etc Who asked for this? US is ahead in aviation harassment but EU will go the same way.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9659 posts, RR: 31
Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13435 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 31):
1989 in LAX I experienced immigration agents that were rude and yelling on nearly every passenger and foreign tourists. It remembered me on drill sergeants.

Well, you also have the nice guys who make a joke and put smiles on people#s faces. Or the "business like" officer who routinely asks the questions he has to ask and let the stamps fly and get you going in very short time,

But they are real officials whpo perform a sovereign task. TSA is not.

Quoting sweair (Reply 32):
I wont say more, because that is not PC.

Speak up, it is your right in a free society. PC is, in reality nothing less than Orwells 1984 vision come true.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePlaneInsomniac From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 680 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13171 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 4):
But I see it like a fire drill. Needs to be practiced.

Fire drill for what? The further arbitrary harrassment of passengers by out-of-control "officers", obviously with no instructions or justification by their own superiors. There certainly is zero security improvement here - if I were a terrorist, wouldn't I make extra sure that I don't move? And aren't these "drills" (unauthorized) of an unauthorized security "technique" just a warning to everybody and a training for how to act properly to avoid detection? Then what is the point in the first place?

No, sorry, this is just ridiculous.

Frankly, I find it scary that anybody would try to defend this kind of out-of-control behavior.



Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 12843 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 28):
Until US lets go of its silly trauma about security I did my last visit 2003, even before that the immigration procedure was a uncomfortable experience.

The TSA and CBP are two totally different agencies in different areas. They do not work together.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 36, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 12686 times:

I'm aware that Customs & Border Patrol are the agency that "welcome" you into the country and are separate from the TSA. My point is that all aspects of travelling in and out of the USA and simply getting worse and a lot of people just don't want to deal with it.

User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 12624 times:

Glenn Beck reacts to stop & freeze

http://www.glennbeck.com/2012/09/28/...licy-%E2%80%98go-to-hell%E2%80%99/


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2451 posts, RR: 14
Reply 38, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11722 times:

Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 7):
Which aspect needs to be practiced - idiots telling people not to move, or passengers standing still? Neither part is practice-worthy.

They are testing if the TSA still have any authority left in order to goad passengers around, and yell them pointless orders.



On a more practical matter... what's the point of "freeze"?

If any officer yells "freeze", people would look around scared. They are very likely to look at the TSA officer. And people have a uncanny ability to look in the same direction as everybody else. They try to make sense out of that yell. So the TSA officer is watched by a hundred eyes...

If no "freeze" order is given, any person wielding a weapon will get the passengers' attention. And approaching officers can quickly make sense out of the situation.



David

[Edited 2012-10-06 07:13:11]

[Edited 2012-10-06 07:14:10]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1610 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10823 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
Why does the TSA do this, if true? They are security checkpoint agents, not airport police.
Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 18):
it is an old article but apparently they collected 1 million in fines

There's your answer folks. You think they really care about your security? They need an income. It's always about the money around here. It you can't tax it...fine it!



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5703 posts, RR: 6
Reply 40, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9473 times:

Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 24):
Not arguing with you, but a screening after the checkpoint is a self-admission from the TSA that they didn't do a good enough job to begin with.

Oh not to worry, I am more than in agreement with you.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8214 times:

Was that right at the exit to a checkpoint? I've seen them do that before when a police officer was confiscating a gun from someone in the checkpoint in PHL and another time in BNA when a guy was having a large knife getting confiscated.


My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7447 times:

Ben Franklin quote http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

National TSA opt out & film week 11-19-12 thru 11-26-12
http://www.infowars.com/national-opt...ut-week-the-new-anti-tsa-campaign/


User currently offlineasctty From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7442 times:

The land of the free surpasses itself yet again. What a shame the country seems so insecure??

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8339 posts, RR: 23
Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7163 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
Their badge doesn't mean diddly squat to me once I pass through security.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
TSA can screen you anytime at or past the checkpoint.

Whoopdee doo. I'm with AS, and I'll add that their badge doesn't mean squat to me at the checkpoint either. I respect the need for security, but the TSA has never made me feel secure (or even marginally safer for that matter.)

The job is necessary and there are some good screeners out there for sure, but there are just as many who love dressing up and playing police because they flunked out of ITT tech's criminal justice program. You've gotta earn respect, and TSA consistently doesn't do that. The badge doesn't mean a thing, and I'd be willing to bet that the aforementioned "good screeners" would understand what I'm saying.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8339 posts, RR: 23
Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7135 times:

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 42):
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Ben Franklin lived in an era of horses and gas lamps; he never had a 767 fly into his skyscraper.

Just saying.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2451 posts, RR: 14
Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6909 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 45):

But strangely, freedom of the press and the freedom of opinion aren't restricted to hand-written pamphlets, printing presses and horse-drawn postal coaches either.

Certain ideas, like not bartering freedom for "security", are timeless.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5703 posts, RR: 6
Reply 47, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6682 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 45):
Ben Franklin lived in an era of horses and gas lamps; he never had a 767 fly into his skyscraper.

Ben Franklin's discoveries and actions directly led to the incandescent light bulb and internal combustion engines, and discovered the very principles of meteorology that allows a 767 to safely and efficiently navigate through the atmosphere and buildings to stand. So clearly, your "primitive" argument fails.

"If an Indian injures me, does it follow that I may revenge that Injury on all Indians?" is another, more relevant quote of his.

He also witnessed the same policies the British enacted against the Colonies devastate Ireland, and lived through the violent overthrow of the Crown in the Colonies.

But apparently, in order to be an expert in freedom and security, you have to watch a 767 fly into a skyscraper. Get real.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6655 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 44):
The job is necessary and there are some good screeners out there for sure, but there are just as many who love dressing up and playing police because they flunked out of ITT tech's criminal justice program. You've gotta earn respect, and TSA consistently doesn't do that. The badge doesn't mean a thing, and I'd be willing to bet that the aforementioned "good screeners" would understand what I'm saying.

  

There are also good TSA operations out there, where TSA management obviously cares and the checkpoint experience is almost always a good one. Interestingly, those airports seem not to wind up in the news for having "freeze drills," while airports with consistently awful TSA experiences, like PHX, do. I wonder whether local TSA management has the discretion to have "freeze drills" or not.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6606 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 47):
Quoting N766UA (Reply 45):

Thanks for the backup, i could not have written better   


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8339 posts, RR: 23
Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6572 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 47):
So clearly, your "primitive" argument fails.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 47):
But apparently, in order to be an expert in freedom and security, you have to watch a 767 fly into a skyscraper. Get real.

What the hell are you talking about?

We're not here to discuss the inherent "timelessness" of Ben Franklin's statements, however cliche and recycled they may be at this point. Obviously we are in agreement that the founding fathers were indeed intelligent and thoughtful men and that freedom and liberty are worth preserving…

But you CANNOT sit there and tell me that Ben Franklin would have made the same statement knowing that one day terrorists would hijack and fly large jet passenger liners into thousand-foot tall skyscrapers to purposefully murder thousands of innocent people. I mean, really, his greatest concern then was the British, and they were a month away by sailboat.

If you think I'm arguing that he's primitive you've absolutely and completely missed my point. My point is simply that in our current world, the one where people from thousands of miles away can fly here to murder us at their convenience, a little bit of a compromise has to be made in the liberty/security department. I'm not arguing against Ben Franklin, but you have to concede that he may have had a slightly different viewpoint if the very real possibility existed that he could be plunging 30,000 feet whilst on fire if a certain level of security did not exist.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9659 posts, RR: 31
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6222 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 51):
What the hell are you talking about?

It seems to be difficult to understand that sentence. It contains the answer to your question.

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 42):
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

The problem of the American public of today seems to be that most, if not all, have neither witnessed nor experienced what it means to live in a country that is not free by our standards.

Germany has experienced and witnessed two dictatorships in the past century. I wouldn't say that we are immune, but we have a different view to "authority" and most important, our government has.

The command "freeze", or "stand still" we are discussing here, a "drill" of people minding their nway through an airport, would violate § 1 of our basic law. Police can cordon off an aerea in a terminal or anywhere else to protect people from harm, like, what happens every day, a bomb threat which can be a piece of luggage forgotten mistakenly by another passenger.

But a "drill" of people, a "command" which has to be obeyed, is unthinkable since the German "Democratic Republic" was disbanded peacefully.

We do not want to have this kind of thinking back and many find it amazing that this is possible in the land of the free and some Americans even applaud to that.

Think about Benjamin Franklins thoughts. He was right then, he is right today and he will be right in the future.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2451 posts, RR: 14
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6108 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 51):

The trouble, Sir, is the following question: What do terrorists actually want to achieve?

I don't believe for a second that they actually want to kill anybody. Killing, maiming and destroying things are necessary evils to them. Their main goal is striking fear into our minds, thus changing our lifestyle into an obedient one. They want to rule, and they want us to bring sacrifices.

Exactly what they have achieved now. Now, TSA "officers" are lurking on every airport. We fear about our lives. People even think about exchanging freedom for security.

There's no accident in Al Qaida choosing the WTC as their goal. There's no accident in using 767 either. They could have killed a lot more Americans using the financial backup they had. For example, you could mix Aflatoxin, a poison from certain mildew species, into our foodstuff, milk and drinking water. With many of mildew poisons, the first symptoms appear in a few months - and the poisoning often leads to liver cancer. When the CDC gets wind of this, the perpetrators are long gone. No chance to detect such a thing in time, except you are willing to pay a hefty premium for laboratory costs.

They have struck at the very symbols of safety and being American. First, the safety of air travel. Everybody wants to be safe on board an airplane. Then, the WTC is widely known as American. Not as a building full of people ready to be killed.

As soon as the government understands this, they will be able to combat terrorism. And they made a lot of progress since the GWB times.

Freedom is inherently dangerous. It is stuff for the brave. But still nobody said abuse of freedom should go unpunished. To me, freedom is the essence of live. I like to improve my safety and security, and for example I do so by saving money for worse times, I look after my good health, but I do not reduce freedom for any measure of safety or security.

You can expose yourself to many dangers - and enjoy freedom. Just don't be mindless, and do your preparation. Learn to distinguish bad luck from carelessness - it's called experience.  

Aviation is, even when keeping in mind 9/11, much more safer than in the 1970ies. Commercial aircraft were hijacked on a regular basis then. Then, we also had many CFIT accidents due to lacking EGPWS. There were times when we didn't have good ATC either, and stuff like the Colorado Canyon accident were bound to happen.



(Huh, do I sound like the proverbial American? It's just my Sunday morning rant.  )

Edit: Checked spelling. And I second PanHAM in this matter. When Benjamin Franklin lived, most if not all of the peoples of Europe were living under dictatorial regimes. We Swiss needed a French invasion by Napoleon in order to have slavery banned. There weren't any true democracies in place then. And Franklin, grasping the chance of the century, wanted to make sure that the United States is born as a country free of this original sin, without feudalists, with all men being equals, no taxation without representation and the other stuff you've heard in school.



David

[Edited 2012-10-07 02:03:10]

[Edited 2012-10-07 02:04:28]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6042 times:

To give up liberty for security is exactly the goal of those pot heads that hate us so much. In a way we let them win, fear is the driving force now. But why should one be scared of living? So many other things are dangerous too.

Any Internet traffic that leaves Swedish borders are ok to sniff for the government, DDR is alive and well. All phone calls are kept for 6 months, toll cameras keep your movements for a few months. All these things came as a reaction to 9-11, no one asked for them either. It was forced through our parliament and the rules changed soon after they came into use.

Lets us not get used as tools by power hungry politicians please! Soon you will be waking up in 1984. Congrats.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5703 posts, RR: 6
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5621 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 50):

But you CANNOT sit there and tell me that Ben Franklin would have made the same statement knowing that one day terrorists would hijack and fly large jet passenger liners into thousand-foot tall skyscrapers to purposefully murder thousands of innocent people.

Yes, actually, I can.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 50):
I mean, really, his greatest concern then was the British, and they were a month away by sailboat.

  

For starters, the British weren't the only threat facing the Colonies, and they had a significant military presence. If it weren't for the French coming in to help (brought in largely by Franklin), the Colonies would likely have been defeated.

But that's okay, because a 767 hitting a skyscraper is somehow worse than a foreign occupation with taxes and rules that crippled the economy.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 50):
but you have to concede that he may have had a slightly different viewpoint if the very real possibility existed that he could be plunging 30,000 feet whilst on fire if a certain level of security did not exist.

Even if his viewpoint were slightly different, I seriously doubt he would support the measures in place now.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5580 times:

Ask yourself how many liberty entrenching laws that have been enforced in the name of war on terror, the politicians have a good scapegoat now, any opposition and its, oh so you support the terrorists..

Ordinary Americans are now suspect, their phone calls screened. Bank accounts abroad are screened etc

Can you really say its ok anymore? Ok to be treated like shit/criminal at the airport, but these new powers have moved way beyond, please wake up!


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2451 posts, RR: 14
Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

We have people here that have flown the Concorde, the 747, ATC guys, ramp rats, engineers, FAs, many users here have ties to airlines, Airbus, Boeing, P&W, GE, Bombardier, the Navy, the USAF, etc, etc, and we could extend this list ad nauseam.

But where are the TSA officers on this forum?    

Are they shy of the light?    

David

[Edited 2012-10-07 15:05:20]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5391 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 56):
But where are the TSA officers on this forum?

The difference is that the previous examples you gave are people who would be passionate about aviation. The TSA are nothing more than airport security guards. I'm sure they couldn't give a crap about aviation.


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1623 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5297 times:

Uh ... what's the big deal? A TSA agent says "stop" and doesn't let people pass for a few seconds? This is a problem? A violation of a person's individual liberties? The end of the world as we know it?

I don't see the issue. Next we'll be complaining that school crossing guards and traffic cops are violating our liberties by holding us up at the side walk.


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1623 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 27):
One of my many beefs with the TSA is the secondary ID verification at the gates.

Jeez, the last time I flew through GIG, my passport and I were scrutinized at the luggage drop off, at the check in desk, at the x-ray security, at the gate and then twice on the jet bridge. Each time, I, and all the other passengers around me, were questioned. I thought it over-kill, but hell, if security wants me to say one more time that I am here on vacation and staying for seven days, sure, ask away. I really, really don't care.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9659 posts, RR: 31
Reply 60, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 58):
Uh ... what's the big deal? A TSA agent says "stop" and doesn't let people pass for a few seconds? This is a problem? A violation of a person's individual liberties? The end of the world as we know it?

Uhh, yes, and what's next? The TSA agent commands the herd of sheep "jump" and everybody jumps?

Or commands 10 push-ups

Or stand 1 minute on your left leg only before commancing your way?

Is that a problem? Yes, it is a problem because such commands are meaningless, have no reason at all and are simpßly humiliating.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2451 posts, RR: 14
Reply 61, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5019 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 57):

Oh. You're right.

I'm still officially stupid.   

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 58):

Because it has to make sense. Otherwise, people will lose their trust in this government agency.

I work in a job where we have to justify everything with statistically sound studies. We have to show how to combat diseases in a cost-efficient manner. If we fail, in the worst case even more people will be dying though their lives could be saved through a modest financial expense.

Al Qaida already had its heyday. They destroyed two buildings in NY, damaged one in D.C. using 767ies. In the same attack, they attacked various symbols we hold dear - the WTC towers, an easily recognizable landmark of the U.S., the Pentagon, center of the military power, and the safety of air travel.

And they forced the U.S. to spend billions on defense, TSA, increased military presence. You name it.

The need for another terrorist attack simply isn't there. And if there will be any, they won't be using airports and airliners. That way is too difficult now.

If there's somebody who has acted in a terrific efficient manner, that's the somewhat radical demolition company from Saudi Arabia. If there's somebody who has responded by wasting money, it's the government of the United States of America.

Terrorism is also about eliciting a response which will sap the resources of the enemy.


David

[Edited 2012-10-08 00:07:17] The first edit didn't remove the "heydey". Somedey I'll understend thet.

[Edited 2012-10-08 00:14:01]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinemgmacius From Poland, joined Jun 2007, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4952 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 50):
But you CANNOT sit there and tell me that Ben Franklin would have made the same statement knowing that one day terrorists would hijack and fly large jet passenger liners into thousand-foot tall skyscrapers to purposefully murder thousands of innocent people. I mean, really, his greatest concern then was the British, and they were a month away by sailboat.


Of course he would! The problem with "terrorism" is, that it works only when you are afraid of it. And it seems you are... BTW: how many checks was there in place before 9/11? Did they work? Will they work in the future? NO, NO, NO, NO!! It's mouse and cat game - there is always a way to get around these "safety" mausures. One simple example - in 2007 I was flying MEL-HKG-LHR-WAW. I took SIX cans of Coke with me. I only had to drink two left at LHR, even though it was banned in HKG. But it was so simple to pass these checks, that even today I laugh when I remember it. And I have one of the "banned" things in my backpack since 2006. NO ONE ever noticed it.



734, 735, 738, 744, 763, 772, 773, A319, A320, A380, Dash8, E170, Saab340A
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4896 times:

With all this new hassle at the airport and more probably coming, maybe people will travel less and that's a huge win for the enemy.

They already stopped me from going to US on vacation, sad that we do all their work really. The only way to win is to carry on without fear or repressive governmental control. They only win when we give up freedom and many in the US seem to give up without thinking about it. Useful tools of the regime..


User currently offlineinfinit From Singapore, joined Jul 2008, 598 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4855 times:

Maybe if that guy hadn't whipped out the camera they would have all gotten into a Gangnam style routine?  

I do apologise for my misdemeanour but I just can't resist posting this  - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLqZknQ6GcQ


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1623 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4513 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
Uhh, yes, and what's next? The TSA agent commands the herd of sheep "jump" and everybody jumps?

Or commands 10 push-ups

Or stand 1 minute on your left leg only before commancing your way?

Is that a problem? Yes, it is a problem because such commands are meaningless, have no reason at all and are simpßly humiliating.

Honestly, you think that's where this is all headed? An officer halting pedestrian traffic for a few seconds is ... humiliating?

The obsession over TSA I find ridiculous. Invasion of privacy? We gave that up long ago folks, and not by anything the government did. I worry more about what facebook is doing with my posts. Hell, I worry more about what my grocery store is doing with the information I am forced to provide every time I swipe my "membership" card so I don't spend $5.00 for a loaf of white bread. I worry who at Sprint is looking at my cell phone records, and why moviefone.com (a site that gives movie dates and times) wants to access my gps when I want to know when the next movie starts.

TSA's invasion of my privacy, and denial of my liberty interests, is really about the least of my worries.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1925 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4387 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Of all the things in this country that take away our freedoms the TSA screeners in my opinion are the least of the worries. Sure there are people that work there that shouldn't and when their actions come to light it casts a huge blow the the good work that the other screeners do, but get rid of the TSA screeners and you will have 100s of contractor companies that will have the same issues that we complain about with the TSA and even less accountability. So hate them or love them the screeners are here to stay. What we as the traveling public need to do is not give them disrespect because you may not agree with their organization, but educate yourself on the correct rules, take names and write letters when the procedures are not being followed so that we can at least attempt to weed out the bad apples.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5703 posts, RR: 6
Reply 67, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4264 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 58):
Uh ... what's the big deal? A TSA agent says "stop" and doesn't let people pass for a few seconds? This is a problem? A violation of a person's individual liberties?

Yes, it is.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 58):

I don't see the issue. Next we'll be complaining that school crossing guards and traffic cops are violating our liberties by holding us up at the side walk.

First of all, real cops are sworn law enforcement officers. They are being held to a much higher standard than the TSA.

And marked crosswalks for CHILDREN is about as far away as you can get from what that TSA does and is doing with the Bravo drills.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 61):

The need for another terrorist attack simply isn't there. And if there will be any, they won't be using airports and airliners. That way is too difficult now.

Actually, it's never been easier. How many agents and other airport workers have been bribed to carry drugs through just this year?

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 65):
An officer

  

A TSA worker is NOT an "officer", in the sense they are sworn LEOs. They are administrative clerks tasked with carrying out a basic administrative search (the legal precedence of which they like to claim doesn't exist, that they are all-powerful officers that can do whatever it takes to make you feel safe).

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 65):


The obsession over TSA I find ridiculous. Invasion of privacy? We gave that up long ago folks, and not by anything the government did. I worry more about what facebook is doing with my posts. Hell, I worry more about what my grocery store is doing with the information I am forced to provide every time I swipe my "membership" card so I don't spend $5.00 for a loaf of white bread. I worry who at Sprint is looking at my cell phone records, and why moviefone.com (a site that gives movie dates and times) wants to access my gps when I want to know when the next movie starts.

TSA's invasion of my privacy, and denial of my liberty interests, is really about the least of my worries.

Wow. If you do a little research, you would know EXACTLY what they were doing with that information. Facebook, Safeway, Sprint, and Moviefone all explain quite clearly what they do with your information in their published privacy policies that are required by law.

TSA has no such obligation. They don't tell you what they do with your Secure Flight info, they don't tell you what they're doing with their comment cards, they don't tell you what they're doing with the information you give them when they accuse you of being a bad boy, they don't tell you (in fact, they LIE to you) about what they do with their body scan images or explosive detection machine results. They can (and have) put people on the no-fly list with no reason and no recourse. They have been caught on video denying boarding to someone who refused to allow a test of their drink purchased post-security by finishing the drink, with their stated reason as "being difficult".

If a private business treated their customers like that, the customers would stop using them, and it's likely the Attorneys General of the states would move in to stop such behaviors.

Using public modes of transportation IS a right. Sure, you can deny it all you want, but there is sound legal precedence that establishes the people's right to free travel AND the people's right to be free from intrusive searches absent probable cause and/or a warrant based on probable cause.

What is ridiculous is that you're more worried about actions by people and businesses with zero ability to ruin your livelihood if you don't want them to, than by a government with more power than Facebook could ever hope to have.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 66):
What we as the traveling public need to do is not give them disrespect because you may not agree with their organization, but educate yourself on the correct rules, take names and write letters when the procedures are not being followed so that we can at least attempt to weed out the bad apples.

Unfortunately, the rottenness goes all the way up to the top. You're talking about the organization that forces airports to issue SIDA badges to convicted felons, in violation of the rules THEY made under the threat of shutting the airport down.

I treat each individual screener with the respect they give me. If they're friendly and cheerful, I'm friendly and cheerful right back. If they start barking orders at me, I either ignore them or yell right back depending on the circumstances. Thankfully, I've never had to actually turn around and leave a checkpoint (and not like that Tyner guy: no chit chat, no giving them my information; turning around and walking out. They can't stop me.)



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1623 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4164 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 67):
First of all, real cops are sworn law enforcement officers. They are being held to a much higher standard than the TSA.

Are they? It seems they get away with a lot.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 67):
Wow. If you do a little research, you would know EXACTLY what they were doing with that information. Facebook, Safeway, Sprint, and Moviefone all explain quite clearly what they do with your information in their published privacy policies that are required by law.

We all know what they say they do with it ... but what assurance do we have that they comply with their own voluntary policies? The point is, we have no control over who in these corporations looks at our private information or what they may choose to do with it. And I disagree that TSA is free to transmit your data willy-nilly across the universe. The agency is bound by the constitution. If you think they're reach is too broad, lobby your congressman. That's what they've been elected to do, protect you.


User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4146 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 67):
They can (and have) put people on the no-fly list with no reason and no recourse.

That is what is so dangerous about e-verify http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Verify if and whenever they mandate all 50 states use it and then actually enforce it then if you end up on the list you may not even be able to get a job at mcdonald's


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3671 posts, RR: 5
Reply 70, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4097 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 26):
with having to submit all kinds of information about yourself beforehand

All kinds of information? Such as? Birthdate and Passport No? Is there more? Even if there is, it is standard information that you will be asked for wherever you travel that needs a visa. Have had the same "information" asked when applying for a visa to Nigeria, India...

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 26):
explain where you're staying on the first night

That is a requirement when traveling to all countries that require a visa. They do need a starting point when they start looking for you, if you have over-extended your stay beyond what is allowed.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 26):
being met off the plane by a surly guy dressed in black with a gun asking you questions like a criminal

I have mentioned it before, but every time I arrived in Germany I was met at the gate by a police officer, who requested me to show him my documents - including passport, which I denied to show since passport is not a requirement for Schengen.

I will only agree about the fingerprints/photo. Even as a resident alien, it is kind of bothersome to give those out every single time I cross the border, I would expect them to have those on file from the first time!


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5477 posts, RR: 30
Reply 71, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

So has anyone actually discovered whether or not obeying a TSA 'freeze' command is a legal requirement? Is one breaking a law if they don't?


What the...?
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5703 posts, RR: 6
Reply 72, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 68):

Are they? It seems they get away with a lot.

Yes, they are.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 68):

We all know what they say they do with it ... but what assurance do we have that they comply with their own voluntary policies?

The threat of civil and criminal sanctions, something which the TSA is immune to.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 68):
And I disagree that TSA is free to transmit your data willy-nilly across the universe. The agency is bound by the constitution

  

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...-list-fbi-informant_n_1524419.html

They've already gone on record saying the 1st, 4th, and 14th Amendments doesn't apply to them, and that they are allowed to keep a secret database of people they won't allow to fly, without any due process whatsoever.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 68):
That's what they've been elected to do, protect you.

Yeah, right. They're the ones who authorized this whole scheme to begin with. Congress is NOT in the habit of admitting mistakes or being made to look as "soft on security".

Quoting lewis (Reply 70):
All kinds of information? Such as? Birthdate and Passport No? Is there more? Even if there is, it is standard information that you will be asked for wherever you travel that needs a visa. Have had the same "information" asked when applying for a visa to Nigeria, India...

  

While I think the whole ESTA thing is dumb, every single country I've been to requires the same information the US does (except for fingerprints).

Quoting lewis (Reply 70):
They do need a starting point when they start looking for you, if you have over-extended your stay beyond what is allowed.

That's not what the address is for, because they know that anyone staying past their allowed time isn't going to be anywhere near where they say they're staying.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5703 posts, RR: 6
Reply 73, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4021 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 71):
So has anyone actually discovered whether or not obeying a TSA 'freeze' command is a legal requirement? Is one breaking a law if they don't?

Even if TSA has deemed it a "rule", it is nothing more than a civil violation (and even that could be unenforceable, as there are no publicly available documents stating such a rule). There are no criminal penalties on the books for ignoring a TSO's commands to "stop", absent any other crime being committed (such as walking down an exit lane into the sterile area, which is criminal trespassing).

As such, TSO's have no authority to detain you if you decide to keep on walking. They could call a real cop over and claim "obstruction of the screening process", but they still can't arrest you... just take your info down for the TSA.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3671 posts, RR: 5
Reply 74, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 72):
That's not what the address is for, because they know that anyone staying past their allowed time isn't going to be anywhere near where they say they're staying.

Hmmm... wasn't sure but that would be my first guess, not so to be able to find you there but at least trace your movement from somewhere. What is the reason?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 75, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 72):
While I think the whole ESTA thing is dumb, every single country I've been to requires the same information the US does (except for fingerprints).

ESTA requires quite a bit more information than either Canada or most of Western Europe requires from Americans, such as an address in the country and information about communicable diseases and affiliations with genocide or Nazi Germany.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 73):
but they still can't arrest you... just take your info down for the TSA.

Given the absurd overbreadth of the disorderly conduct laws most places, that's probably not an argument I'd like to have with a police officer.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 72):
They've already gone on record saying the 1st, 4th, and 14th Amendments doesn't apply to them,

And, with regard to airport screening, they may well be right. Volenti non fit injuria (sorry for the Latin, but it doesn't translate very well).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13430 posts, RR: 100
Reply 76, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3806 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Ghad... More hassle at the airport?

As already noted, the TSA are not true officers. They are simply not trained to the same standards.

I also dislike what the added scrutiny is doing to an industry I love. I know I hesitate to fly with my kids. Too much time getting to the plane with too many steps to run through. For those that do not like kids on planes. Congrats, you won. My money goes to driving trips that used to be short term flying trips.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
Yelling "freeze" and expecting the herd of sheep to stand still is humiliating and a disgrace for the USA that they treat their subjects and foreigners as well like they where North koreans. At least in that country they know the difference how to treat guests.

I wouldn't compare the US to North Korea. Our legal system is far superior.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 44):
I respect the need for security, but the TSA has never made me feel secure (or even marginally safer for that matter.)

Exactly. It is security theater.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3724 times:

Quoting infinit (Reply 64):
I do apologise for my misdemeanour but I just can't resist posting this  -

Just like i can't resist posting this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1wSCrdTDO4


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9659 posts, RR: 31
Reply 78, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3643 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 65):
Honestly, you think that's where this is all headed? An officer halting pedestrian traffic for a few seconds is ... humiliating?

Maverick623 has given you the answers already. And, yes, a screener (they are not officers, they do not perform a sovereign task), should not be empowered with rights to stop people at random, let them wait 2 minutes and then OKs them to move on.

A screener can check your personal belongings for a single reason, to find anything that could be dangerous and interfere with air security. Nothing else. If he finds something, the real police must step in.

What was seen on the videos is humiliating, there is no cause and reason behind it and it violates basic law.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 76):
I wouldn't compare the US to North Korea. Our legal system is far superior.

I apologize for the exaggerated comparison. The US is ruled by the law, NK is ruled by Kim.

The question is, is there too much law in the US and are there grey zones with people who think they are the law and unlawfully menace normal people who mid their business.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineakelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2194 posts, RR: 5
Reply 79, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Not sure what the big deal here is. Flew out of ORF Sunday evening and they told us all to stay where we were while they conducted a 'drill'. After a minute we moved on. No invasion of rights, privacy, or anything. Just a pause in a normal flying day. Much ado about nothing.

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9659 posts, RR: 31
Reply 80, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

Well, who are they to "drill" you or any other person in that area?

Did you join the Army, are you a convicted prison inmate or what? If I want to move or walk three steps in that very time I do that. no one has the right to perform any funny things with you or any other person.

Would you jump a cliff if that drill requires you to do so?

Or raise your right arm and say something which they told you to say?

Such "drills" are senseless, meaningless and gives others the tool to manipulate people at random and at will.

If you think that is much ado about nothing I can only hope for you that you won't wake up one day in a country where you have to apply for a permission for anything.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5703 posts, RR: 6
Reply 81, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3507 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 75):
And, with regard to airport screening, they may well be right.

If you can point to me in the Constitution where it says airports are exempt, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 75):
Volenti non fit injuria

If you're going to use fancy Latin legal terms, please learn what they mean and how they're used. That particular one has no relevance to the Constitutionality of what the TSA does, for one cannot consent to something that they aren't made aware of. Even then, if something is disallowed by law, one cannot be forced to give up a right just because a government administrator says so.

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 79):
Not sure what the big deal here is. Flew out of ORF Sunday evening and they told us all to stay where we were while they conducted a 'drill'. After a minute we moved on. No invasion of rights, privacy, or anything. Just a pause in a normal flying day. Much ado about nothing.

If they want to conduct a drill, they can do it elsewhere or announce it in advance. It's great that you see it as only a minute lost, and if that's all it was, I wouldn't care either.

But the TSA has a nasty habit of starting something on a small scale, claiming it'll never be used as a primary resource or on a large scale, and then turning around and doing just that.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

It saddens me that so many wont think deeper about where this all is going, it is 1984 for real, I have no doubt anymore. TSA is just a symptom of the larger infection.

User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2451 posts, RR: 14
Reply 83, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 81):
If you can point to me in the Constitution where it says airports are exempt, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

The only exemption I know of is actually crossing the frontier. You only have protection by the Constitution if you are in the United States. If you are in the process of getting into the U.S., you don't have them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9659 posts, RR: 31
Reply 84, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3413 times:

That's correct. But even then the customs inspector has to brief you what he intends to do and he has reason his action. Which, of course, can be randomly. That is in the nature of customs inspection and simply the exercise of the sovereign rights of a country.

Entering the USA, a written declaration is required where people enetering the country, regardless of citizenship, declare their belongings.

In most European countries, not even a verbal declaration is required, however, by entering the green channel a customs declaration "nothing to declare" is made automatically. If contraband is found on a random search, which can be even in your car 10 miles away from the airport, a penalty / fine is due automatically.

All that is covered by laws, same as the search for items by the TSA or similar agencies in other countries is. No problem with that.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 85, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3302 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 81):
for one cannot consent to something that they aren't made aware of.

I'm lost. How can someone not be aware that they have fewer rights on an airport than on the street? Isn't it obvious? I can - with a permit - carry a concealed weapon most places. It's obvious that I can't do that at the checkpoint or airside.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8731 posts, RR: 42
Reply 86, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3274 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 85):
I'm lost. How can someone not be aware that they have fewer rights on an airport than on the street? Isn't it obvious? I can - with a permit - carry a concealed weapon most places. It's obvious that I can't do that at the checkpoint or airside.

You're lost because you equate the carrying of a concealed firearm to walking freely. If that gets you lost, well - it's going to be hard to help you find yourself.

As for making people aware of restrictions, I guess it's time for the TSA to come up with a "no walking at you leisure" sign similar to this one:




Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 87, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3251 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 86):
You're lost because you equate the carrying of a concealed firearm to walking freely

No, I didn't do any such thing. People can't be aware of the precise rights they relinquish at the airport because those rights are not well defined in some cases. But surely, people are aware in a general sense that they relinquish some rights at the airport.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9659 posts, RR: 31
Reply 88, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3198 times:

You do not relinquish any rights at an airport, you just have to follow some rules and that includes getting screened for weapons, including your hand carry stuff.

You keep your dignity, you are not a suspect nor a criminal, you volontarily undergo the procedure which has to be conducted in a friendly and business like fashion by the screeners. After all, you are their boss, you pay for the procedure.

You don't have to follow "drills" which are sense- and meaningless. The only drill a civilian has to undergo may be a fire drill in a public building or whatever else realtes to safety, on a ship for instance, to familiarize you with safety procedures. There cannot be a drill to make people stand still. They know already how to do that.

There is a fine line here which is abused by TSA, obviously some clowns want to have power over people which in normal life they can never get.

It is a pity to see how many people are willing to get manipulated and join the herd of sheep,

The USA have killed Bin Laden, but he must be laughing all the way in hell about what he has achieved.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinejollo From Italy, joined Aug 2011, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3209 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 58):
Uh ... what's the big deal? [...] I don't see the issue.

Last half-dozen times I travelled to or through the USA, I've been yelled at by obese, rude, unfocused persons whose last concern was clearly security (as in identifying individuals posing a potential security risk).

These distinctly unpleasant experiences have kept me away, as a tourist and a business traveller, for the last 5 years. When my wife suggests we could visit back to NYC or LA, I manage to sway her towards alternative destinations (of which, luckily, the world is full of). You may say "small loss", but I wonder whether any terrorist has been similarily deterred.

[Edited 2012-10-09 06:48:42]

User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8731 posts, RR: 42
Reply 90, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 87):
No, I didn't do any such thing.

You brought up the restriction on concealed carrying as an example of restrictions that people know to apply post-screening, i.e. the relinquish that right by entering the checkpoint (or building). Since this thread is on TSA restrictions on walking freely through the terminal, I thought you meant that this freedom also falls under your

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 85):
fewer rights on an airport than on the street

argument.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 91, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3091 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 88):
You do not relinquish any rights at an airport,

Every US court to have considered the question has found otherwise. Are you aware of any case law that supports this proposition?

Quoting aloges (Reply 90):
Since this thread is on TSA restrictions on walking freely through the terminal, I thought you meant that this freedom also falls under your argument

Not at all. My argument is that people cannot know precisely what rights they relinquish but they do know, in a general way, that they relinquish some rights. Concealed carry is a right that is so far from the line that people ought to know they relinquish it. And while we certainly can (and should) discuss which side of the line the "Freeze Drill" is on, I think we can probably all agree that it is much closer to the line than concealed carry.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9659 posts, RR: 31
Reply 92, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3070 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 91):
Every US court to have considered the question has found otherwise. Are you aware of any case law that supports this proposition?

read the whole sentence

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 88):
You do not relinquish any rights at an airport, you just have to follow some rules and that includes getting screened for weapons, including your hand carry stuff.

and this one

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 88):
You keep your dignity, you are not a suspect nor a criminal, you volontarily undergo the procedure which has to be conducted in a friendly and business like fashion by the screeners. After all, you are their boss, you pay for the procedure.

and then you should understand that "drills" are not part of what TSA is authorized to perform. I doubt that this has been through the courts already.



Your "concealed weapons" is not an issue for Europeans anyhow.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 93, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 92):
read the whole sentence

I don't understand the distinction. If I cannot do certain activities, aren't I relinquishing the right to perform those activities?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9659 posts, RR: 31
Reply 94, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3051 times:

Try positive thinking. What right do you relinquish? Not getting searched?

The necessity of getting your belonings searched is accepted, although not liked. walking through a metal detector is accepted. The way this is done in most European countries,with friendly personel, is widely accepted, it ois conducted fast and efficient and by no means as intimidating as what TSA does.

The way TSA does handle the matter is unacceptable, the procedures are stupid, the staff is widely uneducated and that's why many Europeans meanwhile avoid the US like the plague.

Now, this "drill" thing really tops it off. My arguments are shown above, no need to repeat. But agan, we are individuals who are not subject to drills. I am not in the Forces, nor a prison inmate or in any other position where I have to endure this kind of humiliating BS.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 95, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3044 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 94):
What right do you relinquish? Not getting searched?

Precisely. The Fourth Amendment would ordinarily prohibit much of what TSA does, even the "unobjectionable" searches like what is done across Europe.

And to be fair, the screeners in certain western European countries (cough . . . Great Britain . . . cough) are every bit as bad as TSA.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
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