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717 AD & DL DC-9 Extension Likely (Rumor)  
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2230 posts, RR: 7
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 15613 times:

Here is the the AD on the 717, which WN will need to comply with prior to delivery to DL:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...57a210049d28a/$FILE/2012-12-09.pdf



For forum rule/posting purposes, I will say there is a "rumor" the 717 deliveries will be delayed and the D95 extended. Word is the 717s may not enter service with DL until late Q4 2013 earliest, or Q1 2014 very likely. And/Or, less will be on property than originally planned. (Initially)

For the D95, this means a full year extension through 2014. For DL, the paid-for D95 is a more viable option than keeping X amount of 50 seaters to cover the overall capacity. Reportedly, at current MEL, the D95 MX & dispatch reliability have remained flat (it sure is a tank), and are profitable on niche routes currently served. Thus, good news awaits for the Diesel 9 nostalgia crowd.

Because of the AD, DL will operate the D95 alongside the 717, during the transition period. (Rather than swap the last 5-10 out with the first batch of 717s, as was considered). Maybe we'll get the picture of a D95, MD-88, MD-90, 717 line-up after all.  





Mods: Please allow this thread as the 717/D95 discussion is relevant to the AD provided. For the other points made, "Rumor" is used in place of specific sources/links, but the DL teammates on here will learn of this through internal announcement by EOY. Regardless, I think we'll have a good discussion with all of the interested parties following this. (Just look at the thread history)

Thank you & Regards,

[Edited 2012-10-06 15:15:42]

[Edited 2012-10-06 15:23:39]


There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1446 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15375 times:

Maybe WN deferring the delivery of 738s is resulting in FL keeping the 717s a bit longer.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7267 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15165 times:

Kind of on topic, but I heard there was 1 717 in DL colors at SEA... could this be a trainer for DL (to learn the plane/systems) or is my "source" incorrect? (wouldn't surprise me)


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineusairways787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 290 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14767 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Kind of on topic, but I heard there was 1 717 in DL colors at SEA... could this be a trainer for DL (to learn the plane/systems) or is my "source" incorrect? (wouldn't surprise me)

I find that hard to believe, when they could just use a simulator.

US787



"Pre departure walk around complete, all doors closed, ready for pushback"
User currently offlinePanAm788 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13632 times:

What is the source of this rumor? Is it an internal email at DL?

Looking at the AD, it appears pretty minor. Inspections are only required during existing maintenance times and appear to require minimum time/cost. I don't really see how this could affect DL's 717 delivery schedule. But then again, I don't work in the industry so I might be missing something.



heroes get remembered but legends never die
User currently onlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4181 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13477 times:

Latest company memo states Sept 2013 delivery... that is pushed back a month.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2230 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13466 times:

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 4):
Is it an internal email at DL?

I am not employed by DL.

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 4):
Looking at the AD, it appears pretty minor. Inspections are only required during existing maintenance times and appear to require minimum time/cost.

Relatively speaking, it is minor. And thus, not a concern. There will be a delay, but it is to be expected. It will not have an impact on the long term plans for the 717 at DL.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlinePanAm788 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13416 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 6):
I am not employed by DL.

So how did you hear the rumor that there will be a DC-9 extension?

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 6):
it is minor. And thus, not a concern. There will be a delay, but it is to be expected. It will not have an impact on the long term plans for the 717 at DL.
Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 5):
Latest company memo states Sept 2013 delivery... that is pushed back a month.

Unless you have info on how/why the DC-9 extension would go about, I'd say case closed.



heroes get remembered but legends never die
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2230 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13313 times:

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 7):

PamAm788,... sometimes the young guys gotta learn what's kosher..



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently online737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 635 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13288 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I don't see how this alone could possibly delay delivery to DL. AD's of this nature are extremely routine in commercial aviation. This seems to be an inspection that could easily be complied with on a RON visit. Now if a long enough crack is found and requires replacement of the rib then that would be a little time OTS but even that would only be a couple of days. As read in the AD there is no permanent closure of this AD, i.e. even if the rib is replace the AD still stays in effect for reinspection in the future.

User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2230 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13168 times:

I don't think it's the nature of the AD. Certainly not by itself. Like I said in a previous post, the AD is minor and will not impact the long term future of the 717 w/ DL. All the AD does is ensure it's not going to be a seamless transition from D95 to 717.

With that, I think we'll see DL take a cautious and smooth approach, to the full implementation and on-boarding of the sizable 717 fleet.

Remember the MD-90? They do at DL TechOps... Engineering wise, the MD-95 is of same generation as the MD-90. Lots of similarities in terms of systems and infrastructure. If somehow the 717 on-boarding was botched, it could be a disaster, if the D95 capacity is already parked.

I'm confident this time will be different, and the 717 will find effective operation immediately upon arrival. But until a sizable number have been executed, and a streamlined process established, the D95s will continue to carry weight.

Contributing factors to the D95 extension through 2014.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3320 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13043 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 9):
Now if a long enough crack is found and requires replacement of the rib then that would be a little time OTS but even that would only be a couple of days. As read in the AD there is no permanent closure of this AD, i.e. even if the rib is replace the AD still stays in effect for reinspection in the future.

WN is also updating the 717 for DL, so one would assume that this could be acomplished at the same time the interiors are getting reworked and whatever else DL asked for in the lease agreement.


User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2230 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12995 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 9):
As read in the AD there is no permanent closure of this AD, i.e. even if the rib is replace the AD still stays in effect for reinspection in the future.

The expectation from DL is the AD (+ updates), will put 15 years of active domestic service into the 717. In other words, no other significant issues should impact the 717's operation through 2025-28. That's on target, based on the oldest current FL frames, which are reaching 13 years of service.

Key for DL as: A long term lease holder, potential buyer, and future seller.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlinebomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12944 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 11):
WN is also updating the 717 for DL, so one would assume that this could be acomplished at the same time the interiors are getting reworked and whatever else DL asked for in the lease agreement.

I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that I'm the only one who finds it kind of ironic that DL is essentially taking advantage of a former competitor at ATL with these 717's? I mean will WN keep the "hub" FL had at ATL? I honestly see DL having a smaller competitor at ATL due to this. Props (no pun intended) to DL for the deal over these 717! Keeping aviation interesting!

Peace   



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlineB777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12678 times:

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 7):
So how did you hear the rumor that there will be a DC-9 extension?

It was recently announced internally on DeltaNet Crew Resources. The 9 is staying until 2014.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4055 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11404 times:

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 3):
I find that hard to believe, when they could just use a simulator.

Not if there are no simulators for this type of training, There could be training issues with systems that must be completed with the actual aircraft.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7502 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10206 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):

Kind of on topic, but I heard there was 1 717 in DL colors at SEA... could this be a trainer for DL (to learn the plane/systems) or is my "source" incorrect? (wouldn't surprise me)

Not true, the paint specs for the aircraft are not even finalized. Also we won't see one until August/September 2013.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinebigbird From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8718 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Is there a possibility that some of the DC-9-50s that have been retired might be brought back to service?


bigbird from georgia
User currently offlinecf6ppe From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8457 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 9):
As read in the AD there is no permanent closure of this AD, i.e. even if the rib is replace the AD still stays in effect for reinspection in the future.

Is there an expectation that a terminating action for the described problem will eventually be available..??

If not, the described problem will continue to be a crack management exercise.
And believe me, airplanes and powerplants are crack management exercises.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 904 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7524 times:

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 13):

I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that I'm the only one who finds it kind of ironic that DL is essentially taking advantage of a former competitor at ATL with these 717's? I mean will WN keep the "hub" FL had at ATL? I honestly see DL having a smaller competitor at ATL due to this. Props (no pun intended) to DL for the deal over these 717! Keeping aviation interesting!

How is DL taking advantage of FL/WN? A merged WN-FL will not have FL's operating costs, and WN feels operating the 717 will be more challenging and/or less advantageous than replacing them with 737. Integrating the 717 into WN had been a concern among many analysts from the start, given that FL had too many and there was no aftermarket for the plane. Whether you believe it or not, DL's doing WN a favor by accepting these aircraft.

I'm still puzzled as to why many a.netters portary DL as the big, bad evil airline taking away FL (WN's) 717. WN has no obligation to remove these planes from its fleet and is doing so because IT wants to.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7267 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7140 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 19):
I'm still puzzled as to why many a.netters portary DL as the big, bad evil airline taking away FL (WN's) 717.

Yeah, I was surprised to read that. What, did DL throw so much money at WN they were FORCED to get rid of them?

Edit: also, just because the 717s are going doesn't mean every route flown by 717s are going... yes, 737s can be placed on these routes!  Wow!

[Edited 2012-10-07 13:14:01]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9071 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6799 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Thread starter):
For the D95, this means a full year extension through 2014.

This has been released to those that want to find it.  



yep.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6264 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6538 times:

Wonder if a Boeing engineer designed the new Horizontal stab ribs. Repetitive inspections for fatigue cracks are most un-Douglas like   


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2752 posts, RR: 45
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6109 times:

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 13):
I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that I'm the only one who finds it kind of ironic that DL is essentially taking advantage of a former competitor at ATL with these 717's? I mean will WN keep the "hub" FL had at ATL? I honestly see DL having a smaller competitor at ATL due to this. Props (no pun intended) to DL for the deal over these 717! Keeping aviation interesting!

What are you talking about? WN was under absolutely no obligation to dispose of the 717s or downsize their ATL operation. They have done so because WN management believes it is in the best interests of the company, network, and profitability to do so. Delta obviously wanted the aircraft and nobody else on the planet had any interest in a fleet of 717s that big. It's good for both companies, as both have repeatedly reiterated. This is not about keeping aviation interesting, it is about both companies attempting to maximize profitability.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 19):
I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that I'm the only one who finds it kind of ironic that DL is essentially taking advantage of a former competitor at ATL with these 717's? I mean will WN keep the "hub" FL had at ATL? I honestly see DL having a smaller competitor at ATL due to this. Props (no pun intended) to DL for the deal over these 717! Keeping aviation interesting!

How is DL taking advantage of FL/WN? A merged WN-FL will not have FL's operating costs, and WN feels operating the 717 will be more challenging and/or less advantageous than replacing them with 737. Integrating the 717 into WN had been a concern among many analysts from the start, given that FL had too many and there was no aftermarket for the plane. Whether you believe it or not, DL's doing WN a favor by accepting these aircraft.

   Well put, CompensateMe.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12060 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5986 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 22):
Wonder if a Boeing engineer designed the new Horizontal stab ribs. Repetitive inspections for fatigue cracks are most un-Douglas like

IIRC, Boeing did not design/redesign the B-717. All they did was build it, in Long Beach, from the MD drawings and redesignate it with a Boeing model, the B-717 (which I am still PO'd about, it should have been designated the B-787, amd the current B-787 which came along later should be the B-797). Boeing also certified it as a DC-9 version.


25 Post contains images KELPkid : Why's that? Is it due to your association with the "Real" 717 (i.e. C-135 and all its military variants, including the KC135)?
26 737tdi : To start this is strictly my opinion. I don't think there will be a terminating action. Why, because the engineering involved would be extensive and
27 jporterfi : I think it may be due to his belief that once Boeing skipped a model number (717 in this case) they should not have gone back to it. Now that the 787
28 cf6ppe : Sort of Off Topic Moment... I have a little book - Pedigree of Champions, Boeing since 1916. This book is Second Edition with the following: The Boei
29 Post contains images WA707atMSP : This is the best news of the day for me, and the other DC-9 lovers here. The DC-9 has the most segments in my logbook, of any aircraft type (I count
30 DeltaMD90 : What pisses me off the most is Boeing going from 7_7-100, 7_7-200, etc to this -8 -9 -10 crap. I mean, wtf?
31 HermansCVR580 : Man one of these DC-9's needs to be saved and put onto display somewhere. These DC-9's are too good for the scrap pile.
32 micstatic : I agree. Years of tradition and a clear easy to understand methodology of naming planes thrown aside for a lame and dated one.
33 WA707atMSP : I agree 100%. What I wish Delta would do is: (1) Preserve one of the DC-9-50s at the Delta Heritage Center, in the current scheme. (2) Donate another
34 RyanairGuru : That's really great news! It's looking increasingly unlikely that I'll get a DC9 during my current trip to the USA, but I'll almost definitely be bac
35 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : Whatever you say. That's not what your friend echoed from TechOps 2.5 weeks ago in the "DL Strategy Of Older Aircraft" thread. Quoting TrijetsRMissed
36 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : Glad it made somebody's day. I shared your excitement when I first learned of it. Enjoy the "Niner" while it lasts.
37 Post contains images Deltal1011man : its in the latest FlightOps update. (thing) on the flip side I do think on that last call in show with John it was said they are done. (so it was a f
38 jporterfi : Thank you for sharing that. I find that extremely interesting. I wonder why Boeing chose 717 to represent the MD-95 when it was already assigned to t
39 deltadc9 : Grew up flying on Delta DC-9s starting in 1969, it will be a sad day when the last is retired. Boeings and Airbusses just dont blast off like a 9 does
40 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Northwest Airlines donated some money to the Henry Ford Museum when the North Central DC-3 was restored. Thus it was painted in Northwest Airlines co
41 HermansCVR580 : Or what about that other airline museum in ATL that has the FEDEX 727 and F-27? Or I agree paint it back into NC colors and donate it to the Henry For
42 KC135TopBoom : Correct. As with many airplanes, there is an OEM designation, and an operator designation. The B-717 was the Boeing designation of the KC-135. AA sti
43 GSPSPOT : Indeed folks!
44 WA707atMSP : The original proposal for the 757 was that the (unbuilt) 757-100 would be built first. This aircraft would have been an A320 / 737-400 sized aircraft
45 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : Exactly. You made my point. Give me a break. Let's keep in perspective for "stuff" that gets posted on DeltaNet. Not everyday, (for the 2nd largest a
46 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : The big fly-in was 2 weeks ago and that's what was put out. I don't go off of rumors I go off of what I see on paper or what's publicly stated to us.
47 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : I understand and I think it's a fair point. But technically your post was from 9/18 - three weeks ago, if timeline is important. From your standpoint
48 Yukon880 : The first 727s on property at Delta were the inherited Yellowbirds, which included a number of -295s. Beyond that, not only did Delta wait for the mo
49 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : Not unlike how DL held out until the MD-88 was available.
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