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US Airways CLT Possible Expansion  
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10159 times:

Hello.

What are the chances of a little US expansion out of CLT.

Possible routes: GEG,TUS,TUL,OKC,GRR,SNA,SJC

Aircraft: GEG-A319 TUS-A319 TUL CRJ 200 OKC-CRJ 200 maybe 700, GRR CRJ 200,SNA 757 , SJC A320

Just a thought

Regards

122 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10076 times:

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):

SNA, if started, would be an a319 or maybe an a320. Not a 757.

OKC and TUL I'm kinda surprised there aren't served rom CLT yet.


User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10069 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):

Yea maybe a little to much capacity, a A319 would make more sense

[Edited 2012-10-06 18:03:34]

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4146 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9960 times:

TUL and OKC will probably be a matter of time, the rest of those might be various degrees of unlikely. Of course that all depends on the, ahem, state of independence of the airline.

User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8913 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9883 times:

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
GEG-A319

0% chance. If Delta isn't running it with a much larger hub in Atlanta and having a partnership with AS on the GEG end, there's no way that US would be able to make this work profitably.

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
TUS-A319

Tried a few years ago and failed. Doubt it would work again - Delta has a pretty good grasp on the TUS-Southeast market. Easy enough to just shuttle pax up to PHX on the many CR9s and 319s on TUS-PHX and connect them there.

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
TUL CRJ 200

Surprised this one hasn't happened yet. Though painfully long for a CR2 at 842 miles.

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
OKC-CRJ 200 maybe 700

Same with TUL. Though even more painfully longer (940 miles on a CR2 just makes my knees hurt thinking about it)

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
GRR CRJ 200

Could see this one happening. Actually surprised US hasn't come back to GRR yet; it's a Delta stronghold but I'd think they'd be able to run a solid CRJ station there DCA/PHL/CLT flights.

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
SNA 757

Would be a 319 if they get the slots for it; not sure how much they want it though when it overflies PHX and most of the major cities can be hit over PHX.

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
SJC A320

Same with SNA, just a bit more marginal. Even Delta is down to a 1x/day flight on ATL-SJC.


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9737 times:

GEG I just see as highly unlikely. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't DL not even fly GEG-ATL nonstop?


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User currently offlineboberito6589 From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 359 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9712 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 7):
GEG I just see as highly unlikely

I agree GEG-PHX is only 1-2x a day. It seems highly unlikely US would start CLT


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8913 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9665 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 7):
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't DL not even fly GEG-ATL nonstop?

Nope - only SLC and MSP for Delta out of GEG. ATL-GEG was announced as a 1x/weekly 737-800 around 2008 but never got off the ground.

Considering Delta has a much larger operation in GEG than US (year round mainline to both SLC and MSP and around 8 flights a day minimum), you'd expect them to jump on a route to ATL first.

As it stands, the only mainline destinations that US has out of CLT in the Continental US that Delta does not serve with mainline out of ATL are MDT and ABE - both of which can be called US Airways Strongholds. I think Ottawa is the only other destination out of CLT that US Airways serves with a large RJ that Delta doesn't serve out of ATL with a mainline flight or an RJ with a First Class cabin (there might be some small towns in North Carolina but I'm not sure; Delta does have mainline into Fayetteville, Asheville and Wilmington now on top of the normal Raleigh/Charlotte/Greensboro).


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3174 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9559 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 9):
As it stands, the only mainline destinations that US has out of CLT in the Continental US that Delta does not serve with mainline out of ATL are MDT and ABE - both of which can be called US Airways Strongholds. I think Ottawa is the only other destination out of CLT that US Airways serves with a large RJ that Delta doesn't serve out of ATL with a mainline flight or an RJ with a First Class cabin (there might be some small towns in North Carolina but I'm not sure; Delta does have mainline into Fayetteville, Asheville and Wilmington now on top of the normal Raleigh/Charlotte/Greensboro).

PGV and EWN are both sometimes served with CR7s, and OAJ is gets a couple of CR7s a day from CLT.

Looking at it now, there are a number of destinations unserved by DL in the South, but served by US at CLT: HHH, LYH, HTS, FLO, PGV, SBY.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineUSAIRWAYS321 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9435 times:

The giant wagon in the middle of downtown Spokane will have to sprout wings in order for GEG to get non-stop service to the east coast.

User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3174 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9257 times:

Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 11):
The giant wagon in the middle of downtown Spokane will have to sprout wings in order for GEG to get non-stop service to the east coast.

Indeed. CLT can't even support PDX year round service....GEG? Come on...



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8545 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 12):

I bet they could support year round, they should operate it with a A319 for the low season


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2362 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8068 times:

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
Hello.

What are the chances of a little US expansion out of CLT.

Possible routes: GEG,TUS,TUL,OKC,GRR,SNA,SJC

Aircraft: GEG-A319 TUS-A319 TUL CRJ 200 OKC-CRJ 200 maybe 700, GRR CRJ 200,SNA 757 , SJC A320

Just a thought

Regards
GEG highly unlikely...US isnt very big there, and DL doesnt even have an ATL flight.
TUS doubtful, better chance than GEG but as stated before its a quick flight up to PHX and then on so unless there is a high demad from TUS to southeastern markets that would warrant a non stop for one stop connections I dont see that anytime soon.
TUL,OKC,GRR I could definitiely see these all....perhaps with a CR7. OMA and DSM were started this year OMA on the CR7 and DSM on CRJ, and DSM was quickly upgraded to a CR7.
SNA, SJC--possible, I see SNA more than SJC...

[Edited 2012-10-07 07:26:11]

User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8049 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 12):

OMA also got upgraded to a CRJ 900


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4327 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8049 times:
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Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
Aircraft: GEG-A319

Spokane is served with 319s by USAirways -- but by West out of PHX.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2362 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8038 times:

since we are talking CLT expansion, I would also like to add another question to go along with the OKC, TUL, GRR markets question....does anyone think its possible that US (assuming no merger with AA) could add some more midwestern markets to CLT? Like maybe PIA, MSN, SBN, FWA, CID (I would personally love that), MLI, CMI, SGF etc?? OMA to CLT and DSM recently started and appear to be successful. US also used to have a presence in most of these markets before so they wouldnt be a totally unknown name. Alot of these markets have lost 1-2 airlines (NW and CO) due to mergers it would be nice to have another carrier on the rosters.

User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8023 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 15):

I think it would be a great possibility consider concourse E will be expanded to 50 gates, the concourse B expansion and the new terminal


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4327 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7976 times:
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Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 12):
SNA, SJC--possible, I see SNA more than SJC...

Possible just on banking business -- given the WF west coast data center in Irvine vs WF east coast headquarters in Charlotte.


User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7962 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 8):
Looking at it now, there are a number of destinations unserved by DL in the South, but served by US at CLT: HHH, LYH, HTS, FLO, PGV, SBY

And all of those, except for PGV and SBY, have been served by DL at some point in the last decade.


User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7926 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 15):
since we are talking CLT expansion, I would also like to add another question to go along with the OKC, TUL, GRR markets question....does anyone think its possible that US (assuming no merger with AA) could add some more midwestern markets to CLT? Like maybe PIA, MSN, SBN, FWA, CID (I would personally love that), MLI, CMI, SGF etc?? OMA to CLT and DSM recently started and appear to be successful.

With the direction the industry is headed, it just doesn't seem likely that US would add long thin routes out of CLT to markets like most of those. In a different day and age, yes. In fact, I'm surprised some of them weren't tried.


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8913 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7800 times:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 19):
With the direction the industry is headed, it just doesn't seem likely that US would add long thin routes out of CLT to markets like most of those. In a different day and age, yes. In fact, I'm surprised some of them weren't tried.

There are some cities on that list that I wouldn't be shocked eventually getting CLT service (MSN jumps out at me), but I doubt the MLI/SGF/other real tertiary cities getting it at this point without an AA merger. AA merger, then yes - I could see it very well happening as it might be only one RJ to add on to an established station - but for a new station and the 3-4 flights you'd need to make it work, I doubt it.


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7724 times:

US has a pretty bad reputation here in central/upstate NY with flights only to PHL and they have a pretty high delay and cancelation rate. Most of the passengers they carry are heading to southern states and florida, they would certainly be doing themselves a favor if they offered a CLT flight to BGM ITH and ELM.


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User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2176 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7366 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 21):
US has a pretty bad reputation here in central/upstate NY with flights only to PHL and they have a pretty high delay and cancelation rate. Most of the passengers they carry are heading to southern states and florida, they would certainly be doing themselves a favor if they offered a CLT flight to BGM ITH and ELM.

The area would stand a better chance of a CLT flight if there were fewer of those small airports up there. They cannibalize each other for traffic and prevent mainline or more distant destinations from being realistic options.


User currently offlineryanrap1 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6840 times:

Does anyone think Clt to Btr will see increased frequency or larger aircraft? The flights are always packed or sold out

User currently offlineLambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6833 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 21):
US has a pretty bad reputation here in central/upstate NY with flights only to PHL and they have a pretty high delay and cancelation rate. Most of the passengers they carry are heading to southern states and florida, they would certainly be doing themselves a favor if they offered a CLT flight to BGM ITH and ELM.

I certainly agree with that. I was working with a client in Corning/Elmira and commuted in from D.C. last year. I think I was delayed or cancelled six out of six times into and out of Philly. Just awful.

I'm not sure that those routes could be profitably served out of CLT, though. Much like some of the smaller southeastern destinations would be a reach for PHL.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7968 posts, RR: 19
Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6921 times:

Pending the arrival of the A350, anyone think an NRT route from CLT would work?


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User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3829 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6868 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 15):
does anyone think its possible that US (assuming no merger with AA) could add some more midwestern markets to CLT? Like maybe PIA, MSN, SBN, FWA, CID (I would personally love that), MLI, CMI, SGF etc??

I'm very surprised that FWA-CLT hasn't started yet, even if only on a CR2 once daily to start. There are too many business ties between the two cities to ignore for much longer. The largest bank in Fort Wayne (Wells Fargo) and the largest insurer (Lincoln Financial) both have a big presence in CLT. In fact, I think post-Wachovia merger Wells Fargo now hubs their FWA operations out of CLT instead of SFO or MSP. The O&D is definitely there, and I think that CLT would also make an attractive alternative to ATL for connections. Lincoln Financial also has a significant presence (and their HQ) in PHL, so I could also see US running FWA-PHL (again, starting with a single daily CR2) for that and better northeastern US/European connections.

I could also see SBN-CLT, but the business ties to CLT aren't as deep in SBN as they are in FWA. Wells Fargo also operates in SBN, but their Indiana market headquarters are in downtown FWA. And I don't think that Lincoln Financial has a presence in SBN.



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User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6600 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):

Yes considering were getting a 12,000 ft runway that will enable flights to the pacific


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6172 times:

Quoting silentbob (Reply 22):
The area would stand a better chance of a CLT flight if there were fewer of those small airports up there. They cannibalize each other for traffic and prevent mainline or more distant destinations from being realistic options.

The problem is that they actually don't really cannibalize one another and each serve their own respective markets... ELM and ITH are the closest but even thats 45-60 minutes and at that distance for the people in ITH may as well drive to SYR.

Over time if they dont add a CLT flight chances are the passengers will simply switch to another airline. From what I understand UA at BGM (4x IAD) has seen steady increases on flat capacity and I'd bet thats in part due to people avoiding US @ PHL.



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User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5867 times:

I'd just settle for getting a couple 2-class a/c back into GSP (presumably from CLT) again. DL stepped it up after WN arrived in town, and just keeps 'em coming. No such response from US.


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User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3174 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5853 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):
anyone think an NRT route from CLT would work?

Yes and No. I'm sure there is traffic between the Carolinas and NRT, and with feed from VA/SC/FL/Caribbean/Latin America/GA/TN/WV, a CLT-NRT flight could probably work. CLT is too far South to be an Asian hub, ATL is no better.

CLT-NRT would probably be the longest US flight out of NRT, but it is certainly doable with a 787 or A350.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 31, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5804 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 30):

Defiantly with the A350 since there getting 22


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2010 posts, RR: 21
Reply 32, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5736 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 30):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):
anyone think an NRT route from CLT would work?

Yes and No. I'm sure there is traffic between the Carolinas and NRT, and with feed from VA/SC/FL/Caribbean/Latin America/GA/TN/WV, a CLT-NRT flight could probably work. CLT is too far South to be an Asian hub, ATL is no better.

In the long-term future of an independent US I could see it, but otherwise I would think we'd see PHL or PHX to NRT before CLT.


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5724 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 30):
CLT-NRT would probably be the longest US flight out of NRT,

By 22 mi compared with NRT-ATL. But, hey, that's over 100,000 feet! That's worth noting in Chamber of Commerce brochures!

In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if NRT-MIA wasn't operating before NRT-CLT. If an AA-US merger goes through, CLT will most definitely shrink.

[Edited 2012-10-08 13:39:02]

User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5700 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 33):

CLT won't if a merger happens, it will grow


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5662 times:

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 34):
CLT won't if a merger happens, it will grow

I'm sure you hope it does, but, barring a substantial drop in oil prices, I don't think there's much of a chance that CLT will sustain its current levels of air service in a combined US-AA system.

CLT is a pretty conspicuous outlier in having the highest connecting percentage of all hubs in the United States, at more than 85%. The next airport by that measure is ATL, with a historical connecting percentage of approximately 70%. The only other airports to come close to this percentage are STL, PIT, CVG, and MEM, and I'll leave it to you to connect the dots. Moreover, US fills most of the seats going through CLT by competing aggressively for domestic traffic, much of it to Florida. The cost structure of a combined US-AA will not allow the new airline to do so profitably.

It's up for debate as to how much a combined US-AA would shrink in CLT, but if today's economic conditions persist, it will most certainly shrink. And LH will also most likely end service, with a decent chance that such service would be replaced by the return of BA.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7968 posts, RR: 19
Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 32):
In the long-term future of an independent US I could see it, but otherwise I would think we'd see PHL or PHX to NRT before CLT.

I'll throw my hat back into this ring of NRT speculations. I see PHX as the first one getting service, then maybe PHL with NH or US depending on who stays independent. PHX has been vying for NRT service for a while.



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User currently offlinecrj900lr From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 389 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5356 times:

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
GEG,TUS,TUL,OKC,GRR,SNA,SJC

GEG-No
TUS-Possibly on a CR7 or 170/175........2X a day
TUL-Possibly on a CR7 or CR9......2x a day
OKC-Not to sure about this one, they already have AA, DL, WN there. A few flights a day wont make them a big player.
GRR-Used to be a popular city out of PIT back in the day with PSA and the D328. Possibly 2-3 a day on a CR2.
SNA-Don't think so. Passengersr can connect through PHX to get to SNA and i'm not sure the demand is there from CLT.
SJC -Same as SNA, you can get there through PHX, but if it were to happen by some strange reason I see it as a A319.


It all depends if there is opportunity and availiable aircraft. In order to get flights to these cities they may have to cut other flights from other cities. Its a numbers game, always will be.


User currently offlinejmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3313 posts, RR: 15
Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5339 times:

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 37):
TUS-Possibly on a CR7 or 170/175........2X a day

And this is from CLT?!?!? Maybe if range limitations aren't an issue and if US hadn't already tried and failed with a daily A319 for a season.



.......
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8913 posts, RR: 12
Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 37):
TUS-Possibly on a CR7 or 170/175........2X a day

This would be A319 or nothing - at 1735 miles, it's too long for a CR7 or a 170.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 35):
Moreover, US fills most of the seats going through CLT by competing aggressively for domestic traffic, much of it to Florida. The cost structure of a combined US-AA will not allow the new airline to do so profitably.

Exactly - it does serve a niche in serving some small Southeast cities, but a lot of its traffic is Northeast-Florida or Northeast-West Coast.

A merger with AA would allow a lot of that Northwest-west traffic to flow over ORD rather easily, leaving it to the Florida cities. Given that they'd have a hub in Miami with a merger, and that would make a dent.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2362 posts, RR: 3
Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5337 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 39):

Exactly - it does serve a niche in serving some small Southeast cities, but a lot of its traffic is Northeast-Florida or Northeast-West Coast.

A merger with AA would allow a lot of that Northwest-west traffic to flow over ORD rather easily, leaving it to the Florida cities. Given that they'd have a hub in Miami with a merger, and that would make a dent.

Keep in mind DL is the world's largest hub in ATL covering the SE, and also has MSP and DTW to cover Northeast to West Coast traffic flows but that doesnt seem to hurt ATL. Im sure that CLT would see some sort of right sizing, but the southeast is a growing and important region that is heavily populated. MIA is too far south to be a domestic hub or even as a Florida hub it would require some backtracking.


User currently offlinecrj900lr From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 389 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5238 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 39):
This would be A319 or nothing - at 1735 miles, it's too long for a CR7 or a 170.

My fault I was thinking Tulsa for some reason when I did this. Yeah A CR7 or 170 ain't gonna make it!


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3174 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

I'm gonna throw it out there and say I am kind of confused when people talk about CLT losing service in an AA/US merger, though I may be a little biased because I currently live in CLT.

I'm not starting to make an ATL vs. CLT thread but just here me out.

ATL has a metro population of 5.2 million people. ORD has a population of 9.5 million people. IAD has a population of 5.7 million people. Yet, out of all of those cities, ATL has the smallest population, but largest airport and number of destinations served. I mean ATL has service to some rather exotic destinations, ex...JNB, BSB. You don't see ORD with flights to JNB or BSB. ATL has service to many more destinations in Europe than ORD, even though ORD is closer to Europe and has a larger population. I mean do you think ATL really has a large amount of O/D to TGU or JNB? How about RTB? Most of ATL's INTL flights exist because because of Delta's large connecting hub. Yet people don't say that ATL is overserved like they do say about CLT. CLT's metro population is almost half the size of ATL's, and CLT airservice is even further affected due to the fact that there are three other medium size airports less than a two hour drive from CLT (GSO, CAE, GSP). ATL doesn't have this.

Everyone is talking about these "East-West" flows that will be affected at CLT in an AA/US merger. I don't think any "East-West" flows were affected at ATL in the NW/DL merger...

Remember that US at CLT is the same as DL at ATL, just on a smaller scale.

Something to think about...



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 43, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5163 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 42):
I mean do you think ATL really has a large amount of O/D to TGU or JNB?

Of course it doesn't. But CLT doesn't even have decent O&D to most of the US. CLT is WAY overserved. ATL has more than 14.0 originating passengers. CLT has 3.5m. That's fewer originating passengers than San Antonio and Austin. Why CLT would compare itself with ATL is beyond me.


User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5105 times:

Since when does all new service depend on whether another airline already serves a 'similar' pairing? There are so few airlines i think USAIRWAYS is large enough and with large enough loyal base to jump into some markets where there is competition from nearby ATL and come away with their share. Customers will only begin to benefit again if this happens. Right now things are pretty much rediculous in this country....

User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3174 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 43):
ATL has more than 14.0 originating passengers. CLT has 3.5m.

I'm curious to see where you got this information from..



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8769 posts, RR: 3
Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 35):
Moreover, US fills most of the seats going through CLT by competing aggressively for domestic traffic, much of it to Florida. The cost structure of a combined US-AA will not allow the new airline to do so profitably.

Too pessimistic. I agree that if US becomes grossly less efficient and less well run than it is today, then CLT and PHL would both be unprofitable. Just as much of AA's network is today.

But that's also true of DL's northern hubs and plenty else too. The fact is CLT and PHL both do well, and rank highly in terms of global hub operations for any carrier. A merger should enhance AA's results rather than harming US's results.

Just to beat a dead horse a little more, the Southeast USA is a massive market with 100m people, many small cities and built-in connection opportunities. It may not be immediately obvious why both CLT and ATL are viable hubs. But, they are-- the market is so big that ATL alone could not possibly satisfy it.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2010 posts, RR: 21
Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 42):
I don't think any "East-West" flows were affected at ATL in the NW/DL merger...

...at the expense of CVG and MEM, and to a certain extent even MSP and DTW, heck even ATL is still down from it's peak. Mergers are not about 1+1=2, they're not about net growth, and not about taking one carrier's operations and simply combining them with the other. Rather they're about reducing costs and competition as well as taking advantage of synergies. Look at CO/UA as well, I don't see where they're having any meaningful expansion, instead we've seen them make reductions at IAH, CLE, DEN (DEN being haughtily debated of course, but net-net they're still down at DEN) while all other hubs have remained flat more or less.

Obviously CLT would be an important hub in any merger, but you're seriously naive if you don't think there would any "right-sizing" (whether slight or significant) with the addition of new mega-hubs in DFW, MIA, and ORD and overall higher operating costs when compared to those of US now.


User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5017 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 45):

Quoting neveragain (Reply 43):
ATL has more than 14.0 originating passengers. CLT has 3.5m.

I'm curious to see where you got this information from..

Think he got it from here but he is off by a million (15 million)
http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...anta-Airport-Revenue-Bonds-Outlook

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
heck even ATL is still down from it's peak.

It peaked in landings and takeoffs 994,346 in 2008 down by a little the last few years
But it set a world record in total passengers 92,389,023 in 2011


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5004 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 43):
ATL has more than 14.0 originating passengers

So then MCO & LAS are larger than ATL in O&D traffic which proves what?


User currently offlinebrandonfsu05 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4974 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
Obviously CLT would be an important hub in any merger, but you're seriously naive if you don't think there would any "right-sizing" (whether slight or significant) with the addition of new mega-hubs in DFW, MIA, and ORD and overall higher operating costs when compared to those of US now.

What exactly is a mega-hub vs. a hub? I wasn't aware that MIA or ORD were mega-hubs and significantly larger than CLT?


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 51, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4933 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
Obviously CLT would be an important hub in any merger, but you're seriously naive if you don't think there would any "right-sizing" (whether slight or significant) with the addition of new mega-hubs in DFW, MIA, and ORD and overall higher operating costs when compared to those of US now.

not sure how MIA and ORD are "mega hubs" I'm fairly sure US is bigger at CLT than AA is at MIA or ORD.
DFW is a 900 flight(ish) hub though.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
MEM,

this one is true. MEM is going bye-bye as ATL grows.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
CVG

NYC growth not really ATL.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
and to a certain extent even MSP and DTW,

errr not really. DTW has been downsized a little due to NYC growth.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
heck even ATL is still down from it's peak.

flights yes....i think we are pretty close to being back at peak with seats and ML flights.

unless runway number 6 comes along Delta won't go back to 1200 flights. About 1,000 is as high as they will go.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 46):
Just to beat a dead horse a little more, the Southeast USA is a massive market with 100m people, many small cities and built-in connection opportunities. It may not be immediately obvious why both CLT and ATL are viable hubs. But, they are-- the market is so big that ATL alone could not possibly satisfy it.

        
If US merges with AA then CLT will still be a very important part of the company that can't really be replaced by anything in the AA network. You guys are on drugs if you think MIA(you know...that city that is at the tip of the south end of Florida) is going to replace CLT as a southeastern hub.



yep.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7968 posts, RR: 19
Reply 52, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4913 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 51):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
MEM,

this one is true. MEM is going bye-bye as ATL grows.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
CVG

NYC growth not really ATL.

MEM was originally de-hubbed because of focus on ATL. When DL acquired MEM again I only saw this as a matter of time issue.


CVG is a different story. From what I've amassed over the years it's 1) prices 2) DTW proximity 3) facilities 4) O&D (which I don't get, people are telling me that if cheaper flights and more destination options were given out of CVG they'd fly out of there more instead of DAY and IND)
NYC growth can't be directly attested to CVG's demise but whatever CVG lost seemed to have gone that direction, or to DTW.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2010 posts, RR: 21
Reply 53, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4877 times:

Quoting brandonfsu05 (Reply 50):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
Obviously CLT would be an important hub in any merger, but you're seriously naive if you don't think there would any "right-sizing" (whether slight or significant) with the addition of new mega-hubs in DFW, MIA, and ORD and overall higher operating costs when compared to those of US now.

What exactly is a mega-hub vs. a hub? I wasn't aware that MIA or ORD were mega-hubs and significantly larger than CLT?

You're parsing words, I said "...with the addition of NEW mega-hubs...", obviously CLT is a mega-hub.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 51):
not sure how MIA and ORD are "mega hubs"

ORD is an obvious mega-hub, they may compete with UA, but they still have a large number of flights and are one of the dominant carriers in one of the largest markets in the country. MIA I would consider a mega-hub as, while the daily flight count isn't huge, they unquestionably dominate the MIA market.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 51):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
CVG

NYC growth not really ATL.

Setting aside the fact that CVG downsizing began before the NYC ramp-up, my overall point was about mergers and their effect on the combined network. My example was to point out that DL neither operates the same number of flights nor carries the same number of passengers now than both PMNW+PMDL.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 51):
If US merges with AA then CLT will still be a very important part of the company that can't really be replaced by anything in the AA network.

Obviously....
Who has said otherwise?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 51):
You guys are on drugs if you think MIA(you know...that city that is at the tip of the south end of Florida) is going to replace CLT as a southeastern hub.

Who said that it was going to?


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 54, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 45):
I'm curious to see where you got this information from..

Because some of us work in the industry and have access to this sort of data. If you don't believe me, check out the link below, which refers to "2 million visiting O&D deplanements." As a crude estimate, multiply by 2 and you get 4 million, close enough to the 3.5 million I was quoting, which is a year old. Not like CLT is a big vacation destination.

I'm curious as to what you thought it was. Did you think CLT had 50% of the O&D traffic of ATL? 75%? The same? And sure CLT may be "high-yielding," but so is Williston, ND. The reason it's not a hub is because of lack of volume. If 85 out of every 100 passengers in CLT are connecting, then the degree to which Charlotte is "high-yielding" is immaterial.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/.../idUS197175+27-Sep-2012+BW20120927

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 48):
Think he got it from here but he is off by a million (15 million)

Yes, the number is closer to 15 million. Thanks for the correction.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 46):
Too pessimistic. I agree that if US becomes grossly less efficient and less well run than it is today, then CLT and PHL would both be unprofitable. Just as much of AA's network is today.

Too pessimistic? What is too pessimistic? That I said CLT will shrink? I didn't even say by how much I think it would shrink. Are you saying service is going to remain unchanged? I'd call that not only optimistic, but delusional based on what has happened with the UA/CO and NW/DL mergers.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 46):
It may not be immediately obvious why both CLT and ATL are viable hubs. But, they are-- the market is so big that ATL alone could not possibly satisfy it.

No one is saying (at least I'm not) that US is going to close the CLT hub. All I'm saying is that I'm fairly certain it's going to get smaller in the event of a US-AA merger.

Quoting CV880 (Reply 49):
So then MCO & LAS are larger than ATL in O&D traffic which proves what?

That MCO and LAS are larger than ATL in O&D traffic?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
Obviously CLT would be an important hub in any merger, but you're seriously naive if you don't think there would any "right-sizing" (whether slight or significant) with the addition of new mega-hubs in DFW, MIA, and ORD and overall higher operating costs when compared to those of US now.

Thank you. As I said, the degree to which it shrinks is up for debate, but it's going to shrink, just like every UA hub has shrunk in the merger with the exception of SFO.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 53):
You're parsing words, I said "...with the addition of NEW mega-hubs...", obviously CLT is a mega-hub.

It is indeed the third-busiest single airline connecting hub in the country, after DL at ATL and AA at DFW.

Of course, I say if an AA-US merger goes through, it won't be that way for long.


User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4724 times:

perhaps slightly off topic & someone already posted this but interesting clt expansion plans that include 5 parallel runways

http://charlottechamber.com/clientup...tations/Jerry_Orr_%20March2012.pdf


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 56, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4572 times:

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 37):
TUL-Possibly on a CR7 or CR9......2x a day
OKC-Not to sure about this one, they already have AA, DL, WN there. A few flights a day wont make them a big player.

Well...AA, DL and WN are in TUL too - so what difference does it make? LOL

The OKC economy is definitely better than TUL right now, but most of the expansion from OKC is going to be to markets with strong energy ties. I think many were shocked CLT wasn't added from OKC after the HP merger when service to PHX and LAS was available. However, US got their tail kicked by WN and left. If US were to start OKC with CLT they would need to do it before WN starts ATL or goes into CLT. Too much market loyalty to WN out of OKC to come in behind them.


User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2850 posts, RR: 33
Reply 57, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4530 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 56):
The OKC economy is definitely better than TUL right now, but most of the expansion from OKC is going to be to markets with strong energy ties. I think many were shocked CLT wasn't added from OKC after the HP merger when service to PHX and LAS was available. However, US got their tail kicked by WN and left. If US were to start OKC with CLT they would need to do it before WN starts ATL or goes into CLT. Too much market loyalty to WN out of OKC to come in behind them.

Don't forget that not only is the OKC economy healthier, it is also a larger city...by around 300k people. TUL and OKC are no longer identical twins.



No info
User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4069 posts, RR: 13
Reply 58, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4450 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 43):
Of course it doesn't. But CLT doesn't even have decent O&D to most of the US. CLT is WAY overserved. ATL has more than 14.0 originating passengers. CLT has 3.5m. That's fewer originating passengers than San Antonio and Austin. Why CLT would compare itself with ATL is beyond me

As a city Charlotte is in the same league as St. Louis and Pittsburgh. Ex-hubs, not very good company, though I find Pittsburgh a quite pleasant place.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 59, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4414 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 58):
though I find Pittsburgh a quite pleasant place.

Hear hear on that one! Pittsburgh is a great city. I enjoy Cincinnati and St. Louis for that matter as well.

This type of thread is always interesting to me, as people seem to take assertions such as "Charlotte is overserved" (which is indeed TRUE, as evidenced by its extremely high connecting percentage compared with other airports) personally, as if the entirety of a city's livability and economic health is wrapped up into whether or not it has a hub. They often devolve into p*ssing contests as people claim that their airport is "better" because it has more nonstop destinations than the airport 200 mi down the road, or that LH flies an A340-600 to their airport instead of an A340-300. When UA announced cutbacks at IAH in retaliation for the decision to build an FIS at HOU, you would think people were having convulsions.

Reminds me of when I was visiting family in Charlotte one summer when the (then) NCNB tower was going up downtown (sorry, uptown), and there was story after story talking about how it was the tallest building between Philadelphia and Atlanta. Seriously, who cares? It's not a football game.

If you like Charlotte, that's fine. It was pleasant enough to me when I visited. But I would hope that judgment would be made on the basis of the city itself and not on how many flights US Airways operates a day from CLT.

[Edited 2012-10-09 10:09:17]

[Edited 2012-10-09 10:11:18]

User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4328 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 59):
This type of thread is always interesting to me, as people seem to take assertions such as "Charlotte is overserved" (which is indeed TRUE, as evidenced by its extremely high connecting percentage compared with other airports)

Obviously another CLT vs ATL pissing contest.....which has been ongoing for decades. For what it was years ago, ATL was overserved and still is to a degree. As I said previously, it's not all O&D, but connectability, otherwise ATL's hub would have diminished years ago in favor of a bigger O&D city like MCO. Geographically, both ATL & CLT are in good locations for the Southeast, and connections throughout the East Coast. No reason why ATL should have the whole pie. It's also a very congested hub that's close to max capacity esp when the weather gets bad.

Whether CLT remains a large hub for the combined US-AA merged airline (if that happens), is up to the management of the new carrier, but they would be foolish cede the Southeast to one carrier, as MIA is not even close to ever being a hub for domestic connections.

CLT's O&D percentage is also lower as the Airport is encircled by other airports of respectable size such as GSP, CAE, GSO, RDU and to a lesser degree by FAY & AVL, whereas ATL has nearby airports like AGS, CSG & CHA--all with far fewer flights. Many of the pax that board in these cities connect thru either CLT or ATL enroute to their destinations.


User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2850 posts, RR: 33
Reply 61, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4286 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 59):
Reminds me of when I was visiting family in Charlotte one summer when the (then) NCNB tower was going up downtown (sorry, uptown), and there was story after story talking about how it was the tallest building between Philadelphia and Atlanta. Seriously, who cares? It's not a football game.

Some people have civic pride. I for one am very proud of the city I am from and currently reside in, I do everything I can to promote it. It's unfortunate a lot of people do not take pride in their city. Many cities would be much better places to live if the people living in it took pride in their city.



No info
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 62, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4273 times:

Quoting CV880 (Reply 60):
As I said previously, it's not all O&D, but connectability, otherwise ATL's hub would have diminished years ago in favor of a bigger O&D city like MCO.

That's a bit simplistic. Atlanta is the sixth busiest O&D airport in the country. Charlotte is not even in the top 30. There's no comparison except both cities serve similar connecting passenger flows.

Quoting CV880 (Reply 60):
Whether CLT remains a large hub for the combined US-AA merged airline (if that happens), is up to the management of the new carrier, but they would be foolish cede the Southeast to one carrier, as MIA is not even close to ever being a hub for domestic connections.

Nobody is saying (at least I'm not saying) the hub would close in a US-AA merger. All I said is that it's almost a certainty that service will be cut back. I think that seat capacity could decrease by 15%-20% to get CLT's connecting percentage in line with other connecting hubs. Even with a haircut of 15%, it would still have the highest connecting percentage in the country.

It comes down to this--the real rationale for an US-AA merger is revenue benefits. Revenue benefits come from higher fares. Do you think all people in the Southeast are going to happily pay more for the air service they're using today? Sure, many--the passengers flying on someone else's dime--will, but a lot--those at the margins--won't. And guess what? US-AA will be happy not to carry them in exchange for higher average fares.

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 61):
Some people have civic pride. I for one am very proud of the city I am from and currently reside in, I do everything I can to promote it. It's unfortunate a lot of people do not take pride in their city. Many cities would be much better places to live if the people living in it took pride in their city.

Seems to me that liking the city one lives in not on the basis of how it compares with Atlanta or other airports or cities but on its own merits of shows a much higher degree of civic pride. (Reading this makes me wonder if The Daily Oklahoman reads these days like the Charlotte Observer in the 1990s . . . "OKC has the tallest building between Chicago and Dallas! Take that, Tulsa!!")

[Edited 2012-10-09 11:34:01]

[Edited 2012-10-09 11:34:20]

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7808 posts, RR: 25
Reply 63, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4223 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 62):
Atlanta is the sixth busiest O&D airport in the country

Just curious, what are the top 10 or so?



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 64, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4217 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 63):
Just curious, what are the top 10 or so?

Check out page 255 of the DFW 2012C official statement (I can't seem to get the link to work):

Go to dfwairport.com

Select "Investors/Financial Information" at bottom

Click "Click to Continue"

Select "Recent Bond Issues"

Select "2012C Official Statement"

(If anyone could get the link to work and post it, I'd be appreciative.)

This table lists ATL as 7th, but due to lack of complete international O&D data, they're estimates.

See also page 256, which ranks airports based on connecting passengers.

You will probably enjoy the report on DFW.

(Edited to fix URL problem.)

[Edited 2012-10-09 12:05:48]

[Edited 2012-10-09 12:09:14]

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4146 posts, RR: 8
Reply 65, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4188 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 28):
The problem is that they actually don't really cannibalize one another and each serve their own respective markets... ELM and ITH are the closest but even thats 45-60 minutes and at that distance for the people in ITH may as well drive to SYR.

Oh goodness no, not a 45-60 minute drive to another airport. For most people, 45-60 minutes is a normal drive even within their own city. When there is only one airport that has a large catchment, it begins to look much more attractive to potential suitor airlines who may now consider mainline planes rather than Dash-8s or CR2s - or airlines like Southwest and Jetblue.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 37):
OKC-Not to sure about this one, they already have AA, DL, WN there. A few flights a day wont make them a big player.

A hole in the network is just that. Doesn't matter who already serves the market - now you would be recapturing the US customer who goes out of their way to book on OAL to get to an unserved destination - one which happens to be the government and economic center of a sizable state.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 37):
TUS-Possibly on a CR7 or 170/175........2X a day
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 39):
This would be A319 or nothing - at 1735 miles, it's too long for a CR7 or a 170.
Quoting crj900lr (Reply 41):
My fault I was thinking Tulsa for some reason when I did this. Yeah A CR7 or 170 ain't gonna make it!

An E170 could indeed make the flight, as could an E190. A CRJ could not, nor could an E195. The flight is a bit over 1500 nm.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 43):
Of course it doesn't. But CLT doesn't even have decent O&D to most of the US. CLT is WAY overserved. ATL has more than 14.0 originating passengers. CLT has 3.5m. That's fewer originating passengers than San Antonio and Austin. Why CLT would compare itself with ATL is beyond me.

Size isn't everything. US is traditionally an East Coast airline meaning half of its network funnels most effectively through CLT. With its current structure, US could make a Southeast hub work in just about any size market because there is no suitable in-network alternative. That said, outside of ATL, CLT is the next best choice.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 53):
ORD is an obvious mega-hub, they may compete with UA, but they still have a large number of flights and are one of the dominant carriers in one of the largest markets in the country. MIA I would consider a mega-hub as, while the daily flight count isn't huge, they unquestionably dominate the MIA market.

Just being a fortress hub doesn't make it a mega-hub. While there is no real definition of such, I am pretty sure that number of flights is one of the main factors, and if MIA is a mega-hub then there are very few non-mega-hubs in the country.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 58):
As a city Charlotte is in the same league as St. Louis and Pittsburgh. Ex-hubs, not very good company, though I find Pittsburgh a quite pleasant place.

In size, yes. Although you are skirting the fact that both STL and PIT were victims of network inefficiencies in which a given airline had two hubs in very close proximity that fought over the same traffic flows. If US had not built up PHL, PIT would have survived (and in fact is better geographically located).

[Edited 2012-10-09 12:18:58]

User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 64):
(If anyone could get the link to work and post it, I'd be appreciative.)


Link seems to work on my end
page 255
http://dfwairport.com/cs/groups/publ...c/documents/webasset/p1_061045.pdf


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 67, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4140 times:

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 66):
Link seems to work on my end

Thanks much! Not sure what I screwed up, but most probably user error.


User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4137 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 67):
Thanks much! Not sure what I screwed up, but most probably user error.

Glad to help

Also interesting article on CLT/ATL (Top 10 fastest growing airports)
http://www.aviationpros.com/news/107...ten-fastest-growing-airports-in-us

"Boyd said the greatest growth would occur at Hartsfield Jackson Atlanta International Airport, the largest and busiest airport in the country, with 12.3 percent growth.

The only other double-digit growth is expected at Charlotte, N.C., with a 12.1 percent increase."


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 69, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 68):
"Boyd said the greatest growth would occur at Hartsfield Jackson Atlanta International Airport, the largest and busiest airport in the country, with 12.3 percent growth.

The only other double-digit growth is expected at Charlotte, N.C., with a 12.1 percent increase."

In my experience, Mr. Boyd has the habit of making such statements regarding airports he works at, or wants to work at. I believe his forecast for ATL presented in Albuquerque last year showed close to zero growth.


User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4098 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 69):
In my experience, Mr. Boyd has the habit of making such statements regarding airports he works at, or wants to work at. I believe his forecast for ATL presented in Albuquerque last year showed close to zero growth.

Yes when he mentions MEM in the top ten growth for passengers i figure something got to be off here, your statement makes sense


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 71, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4070 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 62):
That's a bit simplistic. Atlanta is the sixth busiest O&D airport in the country. Charlotte is not even in the top 30. There's no comparison except both cities serve similar connecting passenger flows.

It's not that simplistic.....ATL has NO competition from surrounding airports and CLT does. Locals from CLT have often in the past driven to surrounding airports to get better fares, often connecting back in CLT to their destination. ATL doesn't have that problem. People in surrounding cities such as GSP ,CAE, FAY, RDU, GSO, AVL need not drive to CLT(in most cases to get better fares). That's not the case in ATL.

Taking it a step further, SLC, which has a higher O&D has absolutely No competition. There is nothing but SLC between DEN & LAS.

[Edited 2012-10-09 13:26:09]

CLT's O&D would be substantially higher if it weren't for the surrounding airports which have fairly decent air service (nonstop) in many east coast markets. This is a separate issue from being a connecting hub, and one has nothing to do with the other, in this case.


[Edited 2012-10-09 13:40:30]

User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2850 posts, RR: 33
Reply 72, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 62):
Seems to me that liking the city one lives in not on the basis of how it compares with Atlanta or other airports or cities but on its own merits of shows a much higher degree of civic pride. (Reading this makes me wonder if The Daily Oklahoman reads these days like the Charlotte Observer in the 1990s . . . "OKC has the tallest building between Chicago and Dallas! Take that, Tulsa!!")

No no, civic pride is on a much deeper level than that. Sure it's nice to showoff when your city lands a major development. But civic pride goes much deeper than that. I am proud to be from Oklahoma City because I know the history of where we came from, what we went through, and where we are today. I'm also confident about where we are going. I know where we stumbled and where we picked ourselves back up again and grew despite the naysayers. And I know what attitude and vibe our city has picked up in that process. That my friend, is civic pride.

And yes we do have the 36th tallest building in the United States, or the 10th tallest building west of the Mississippi River, in Oklahoma City. The other 9 are located in Dallas, Houston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle. That's not a bad list of cities to be grouped with.

[Edited 2012-10-09 13:34:27]


No info
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 73, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4028 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 65):

I could see a E175 ion the CLT-TUL and CLT-OKC


User currently offlinebrandonfsu05 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 74, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3994 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
Obviously CLT would be an important hub in any merger, but you're seriously naive if you don't think there would any "right-sizing" (whether slight or significant) with the addition of new mega-hubs in DFW, MIA, and ORD and overall higher operating costs when compared to those of US now.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 53):
You're parsing words, I said "...with the addition of NEW mega-hubs...", obviously CLT is a mega-hub.

Yes, you did say that. However, in the beginning of your statement you said, "Obviously CLT would be an important hub in any merger." You didn't identify CLT as a mega-hub. You simply said it would be an important hub. Your statement "with the addition of NEW mega-hubs" is vague. That statement can be read in several ways. If you would have written "with the addition of OTHER mega-hubs" it would have been implied that you considered CLT a mega-hub as well.

[Edited 2012-10-09 14:07:14]

User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 75, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Quoting CV880 (Reply 71):
It's not that simplistic.....ATL has NO competition from surrounding airports and CLT does. Locals from CLT have often in the past driven to surrounding airports to get better fares, often connecting back in CLT to their destination. ATL doesn't have that problem. People in surrounding cities such as GSP ,CAE, FAY, RDU, GSO, AVL need not drive to CLT(in most cases to get better fares). That's not the case in ATL.
OK, I'm confused. Are you saying that CLT's O&D is depressed because the millions of O&D passengers from Statesville might choose to drive to GSO and that ATL has 15m O&D passengers because of all those people who drive from Athens and Macon? Or are you wanting to include the Raleigh-Durham MSA population in CLT's air service area?

Let's take the airports you cite and their number of O&D passengers (to the nearest hundred thousand):

CLT: I'll give you 4.0m

RDU actually has slightly more at 4.5m

GSO has 0.8m

GSP has 0.6m (but growing fast)

CAE has 0.5m

AVL has 0.4m

FAY has 0.2m

Add those up and it gets you to 11.0m, or a little more than 2/3 of the number of ATL O&D passengers.

I will grant you that ATL has a larger functional catchment area, but that's only relevant to the O&D numbers to the extent the catchment area has a large population. And the ATL hinterlands does not because--as you have somewhat proven with your CLT example--if there are large enough cities in the region to support an airport, there usually is one.

CLT is a much smaller O&D airport than ATL because it is a smaller city and has a population with a lower propensity to travel, on average. The latter is attributable somewhat to relatively high fares.

(Edited due to inability to add.)

[Edited 2012-10-09 14:38:18]

User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3174 posts, RR: 2
Reply 76, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3948 times:

Quoting CV880 (Reply 71):
CLT's O&D would be substantially higher if it weren't for the surrounding airports which have fairly decent air service (nonstop) in many east coast markets. This is a separate issue from being a connecting hub, and one has nothing to do with the other, in this case.

This is true, coupled with the fact of the high fares out of CLT for local passengers. I live in CLT's northern suburbs, and within the past year alone, I have driven to AVL(to fly FL to MCO), GSP(fly WN to MCO), and RDU(fly WN to FLL).



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 77, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3943 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 76):
This is true, coupled with the fact of the high fares out of CLT for local passengers. I live in CLT's northern suburbs, and within the past year alone, I have driven to AVL(to fly FL to MCO), GSP(fly WN to MCO), and RDU(fly WN to FLL).

OK, you have 7.0m additional O&D passengers up for grabs from the airports listed above, with 4.5m of them coming from RDU alone. How many of these 7.0m passengers do you think really come from the Charlotte MSA?

CLT had 19.5m enplaned passengers in 2011. 4.0m O&D passengers divided by 19.5m enplaned gives you a 20% originating percentage. Leave out B6, AA, DL, FL, etc., the originating percentage for US is probably less than 15%.

For CLT to be in line with ATL, which has the next lowest originating percentage for any airport in the U.S., the originating percentage would need to be 30%. 19.5m enplaned passengers times 0.3 is 5.85m originating passengers, or 1.85m than CLT is seeing today. Do you think 1.85m passengers are driving from Charlotte to GSP, GSO, RDU, and the like? Do you really think that 1 out of every 4 passengers flying out of GSP, GSO, RDU, etc. are from Charlotte?

In any case, here's the rub. Why do Charlotte passengers drive to other airports? Because fares are lower. How do you get the Charlotteans currently flying out of airports other than CLT to fly out of CLT? Lower fares. I think any rational, unbiased person with industry knowledge would agree that fares would only go up in CLT in the event of a US-AA merger. I think you can expect the problem to get worse.


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3902 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
Obviously CLT would be an important hub in any merger, but you're seriously naive if you don't think there would any "right-sizing" (whether slight or significant) with the addition of new mega-hubs in DFW, MIA, and ORD and overall higher operating costs when compared to those of US now.

However, in an AA/US merger scenario, the new combined entity would NEED a Southeastern U.S. hub to facilitate pax using its network to travel from say GSP to MSY efficiently. MIA, DFW and ORD don't do it for that and countless other similar city pairs. Without CLT, the new entity is turning its back on revenue from an entire quadrant of the country.

[Edited 2012-10-09 15:09:47]


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 79, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 78):
Without CLT, the new entity is turning its back on revenue from an entire quadrant of the country.

Who is saying AA-US would abandon CLT?


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 80, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3848 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 79):
Who is saying AA-US would abandon CLT?

OK, I worded that wrong. I was taking issue with the poster's implicit assertion that DFW, MIA & ORD serve the same region/passengers as CLT - that CLT was somehow redundant. Nothing could be further from the truth IMO.



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 81, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3814 times:

CLT is not going anywhere, i still don't think the merger won't happen

User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2010 posts, RR: 21
Reply 82, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 80):
Quoting neveragain (Reply 79):
Who is saying AA-US would abandon CLT?

OK, I worded that wrong. I was taking issue with the poster's implicit assertion that DFW, MIA & ORD serve the same region/passengers as CLT - that CLT was somehow redundant. Nothing could be further from the truth IMO.

Well that wasn't the implication and I think that would be apparent when I said that CLT would obviously remain a large, important for the combined carrier. Of course they would need a Southeast hub and that's what CLT would continue to be, however, as I explained earlier, mergers are not about growth, they're about eliminating competition, consequently charging higher fares, decreasing capacity and increasing profits.

Are you saying that with the addition of three large hubs to the network that there WOULDN'T be any route rationalization between them and that CLT would be completely unaffected? Even if you accept the premise that CLT, outside the Southeast, serves absolutely no redundant traffic flows better connected over the newly added hubs, there's still the fact that mergers serve to remove capacity from the system and charge higher fares resulting in less traffic. I'll say this again, mergers aren't simply about 1+1=2, they're more about 1+1=1.5. Again, add up the fleet and number of passengers carried by pre-merger DL and pre-merger NW, you'll find that the merged DL now carries fewer passengers and has a smaller fleet than the sum of both of their pre-merger operations. Same story with CO/UA.


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 83, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 75):
CLT is a much smaller O&D airport than ATL because it is a smaller city and has a population with a lower propensity to travel, on average. The latter is attributable somewhat to relatively high fares.

Agreed CLT is a smaller city....no contest there. However the MSA/CSA's come near to overlapping the other cities that mentioned, and your assertion that people there don't travel as much is incorrect. The banks alone, contribute much to the O&D traffic. RDU's O&D stats are skewed in that RDU supports travel from the 3 large universities in the area whose students are very mobile, I being one, when I was at UNC. Every student holiday period contributes to the enplanement stats at RDU. SLC stats are skewed as it's the only game within hundreds of miles. LAS & MCO's stats are skewed to being the playgrounds of America.

The O&D stats have nothing to do with how the hub works. Period. THE HUB could as well be in BNA or RDU and still be as functional as ATL, and that is precisely why the hub has worked in CLT and can continue to do so as long as it suits US Air/AA. Regardless of where the US/AA hub is, there still have to be terminal facilities & runways to handle the traffic and Orr has done a fairly decent job of keeping the construction timetable in sync with demand.


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 84, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3696 times:

Not really related to O&D, but to domestic and international US Airline traffic for the 1st half of 2012.

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/20...43_12/html/bts043_12.html#table_11

Note that WN is #1 domestic carrier, and of course "Big A" boardings over twice that of 'little c'.


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3174 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3662 times:

Quoting CV880 (Reply 84):
Not really related to O&D, but to domestic and international US Airline traffic for the 1st half of 2012.

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/20...43_12/html/bts043_12.html#table_11

Note that WN is #1 domestic carrier, and of course "Big A" boardings over twice that of 'little c'.

It's interesting to see how big a combined AA/US would be.

Does anyone know of say the top 15 airports in the US for international traffic?



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4146 posts, RR: 8
Reply 86, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3597 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 85):
Does anyone know of say the top 15 airports in the US for international traffic?

Purely originating traffic, or total enplanements?


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

Quoting CV880 (Reply 83):
Agreed CLT is a smaller city....no contest there. However the MSA/CSA's come near to overlapping the other cities that mentioned, and your assertion that people there don't travel as much is incorrect. The banks alone, contribute much to the O&D traffic.

Yes, CLT is in a growing region that's adopted a large banking environment, but data doesn't lie: it has among the fewest local passengers of any hub in the country, smaller than that of many medium-sized communities without significant air service. CLT's low costs (by far the lowest of any hub in the country) and location (the alternative to ATL in a fast-growing region; easy connections to Florida, the Caribbean) have made it a successful hub. US did a remarkable job over the past decade of building a large, high-yielding Caribbean transfer operation (many a.net posters mocked the attempts years ago).

I take a dissenting view of most posters: should AA-US merge, I believe CLT's super-low O/D levels will likely cause it to shrink. It doesn't make much sense for one of the largest hubs to have the least amount of local traffic; ultimately, all mergers have shifted traffic flows. The wild card, of course, is the super-high costs at MIA compared to those at CLT.



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 88, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 85):
Does anyone know of say the top 15 airports in the US for international traffic?

Look at page 9 of the same DFW report from reply 66 for ranking of airport by international enplaned passengers. CLT number 18, but second fastest growing in country (after PHX). I still can't get the link to work, but others are obviously smarter than I in this department.

I don't have a list of airports by international originating passengers.

[Edited 2012-10-10 04:32:27]

User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 89, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

Quoting CV880 (Reply 83):
However the MSA/CSA's come near to overlapping the other cities that mentioned, and your assertion that people there don't travel as much is incorrect. The banks alone, contribute much to the O&D traffic.

Sweet heavenly Jesus, I might as well give up. Facts don't seem to be of much use in the Carolinas. 2011 MSA population:

Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill: 1.8m

Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta: 5.4m

Originating trips per year per capita (or trip rate, divide population by originating passengers):

CLT: 2.2 (@ 4m originating passengers)

ATL: 2.8 (@ 15m originating passengers)

For Charlotteans to travel as much as Atlantans in this example, they would have to generate 1m more originating trips per year. If 1m Charlotteans are indeed flying from other airports in the state and the "true" number of Charlotte MSA originating passengers is 5m (4m + 1M), that means that 1 out of every 5 people don't fly from CLT. I find that hard to believe, although I'm sure you'll claim as such just because Charlotte has a heavy banking presence, and everyone has to know that bankers fly around a lot. Have you looked at the list of companies based in Atlanta? What makes you think their employees don't fly around as much (or more) than those in Charlotte?

In any case, this relationship is exactly one would expect, other assumptions unchanged, because CLT originating fares are higher! Moreover, you'd expect some selection bias here, as companies with highly mobile workforces have been moving to Atlanta for decades for access to air travel since it historically has been one of the busiest airports in the U.S. Charlotte became a busy airport much later. Same story in Texas--Dallas/Fort Worth has a much higher trip rate than Houston, where IAH really wasn't a busy hub until the late 1990s.

Quoting CV880 (Reply 83):
RDU's O&D stats are skewed in that RDU supports travel from the 3 large universities in the area whose students are very mobile, I being one, when I was at UNC. Every student holiday period contributes to the enplanement stats at RDU. SLC stats are skewed as it's the only game within hundreds of miles. LAS & MCO's stats are skewed to being the playgrounds of America.

So you're saying these passengers aren't "real" passengers? Might as well make a claim that says, "Charlotte's O&D stats are skewed because of oh so many banks!"

Quoting CV880 (Reply 83):
The O&D stats have nothing to do with how the hub works. Period. THE HUB could as well be in BNA or RDU and still be as functional as ATL, and that is precisely why the hub has worked in CLT and can continue to do so as long as it suits US Air/AA.

The O&D stats have nothing to do with how a hub works operationally? OK, I will give you that. Don't see your point, though.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 87):
The wild card, of course, is the super-high costs at MIA compared to those at CLT.

Of course I agree with most of your post, but I'm not so sure how much of a factor that will be. I believe both airports have residual agreements. In the short run, the vast majority of costs are fixed (i.e., not many expenses are activity-dependent). As long as US/AA controls the majority of traffic at either airport, be it 15m enplaned passengers at MIA or 5m, it's going to get more or less the same bill. In the long run, costs will be most dependent upon which facilities get built, the decision for which involves consultation with AA.

Stated differently, AA's total costs at MIA are not going to change much if activity increases or decreases. Unit costs will, of course. As long as AA wants to have a big presence in Latin America, MIA will be the gateway. Any unit cost advantage at CLT or DFW is not going to outweigh the revenue disadvantage of those airports relative to Miami.

Agreed regarding Jerry Orr's strength as airport manager. If the financial projections of the proposed CLT capital improvements assuming a reduction in traffic are true, it'd appear as if the investments have a little downside and a big upside.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 81):
CLT is not going anywhere, i still don't think the merger won't happen

Well that's ever-so-helpful. I have a friend in all of the IAH threads I can introduce you to.

[Edited 2012-10-10 05:06:25]

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 90, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3391 times:

This thread is very entertaining.....

Based on the original topic of CLT expansion, right now a status-quo US is in a now-growth mode. Actually no one is really growing at this time, at least until there is any indication where the economy is going, and the ability to continue passing along higher fuel costs to passengers. At current costs, there is a certain amount of demand that has simply vaporized that used to be there years ago when fares where lower.

Obviously a US-AA merger would change things and lead to a rebalancing of the network.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 89):
although I'm sure you'll claim as such just because Charlotte has a heavy banking presence, and everyone has to know that bankers fly around a lot. Have you looked at the list of companies based in Atlanta? What makes you think their employees don't fly around as much (or more) than those in Charlotte?

Yes, one thing to only look at one city and dismiss anything in another.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 89):
Quoting CV880 (Reply 83):
RDU's O&D stats are skewed in that RDU supports travel from the 3 large universities in the area whose students are very mobile, I being one, when I was at UNC. Every student holiday period contributes to the enplanement stats at RDU. SLC stats are skewed as it's the only game within hundreds of miles. LAS & MCO's stats are skewed to being the playgrounds of America.

So you're saying these passengers aren't "real" passengers? Might as well make a claim that says, "Charlotte's O&D stats are skewed because of oh so many banks!"

Most major cities have some demand generated by major universities. Not necessarily unique to RDU. In most cases, the demand generated by students at major universities is either a) highly price sensitive b) traveling at periods around holidays where business-related travel falls off a cliff, essentially replacing other demand and more or less a part of the larger amount of holiday-related travel.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 87):
I take a dissenting view of most posters: should AA-US merge, I believe CLT's super-low O/D levels will likely cause it to shrink. It doesn't make much sense for one of the largest hubs to have the least amount of local traffic; ultimately, all mergers have shifted traffic flows. The wild card, of course, is the super-high costs at MIA compared to those at CLT.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 82):
Are you saying that with the addition of three large hubs to the network that there WOULDN'T be any route rationalization between them and that CLT would be completely unaffected? Even if you accept the premise that CLT, outside the Southeast, serves absolutely no redundant traffic flows better connected over the newly added hubs, there's still the fact that mergers serve to remove capacity from the system and charge higher fares resulting in less traffic. I'll say this again, mergers aren't simply about 1+1=2, they're more about 1+1=1.5. Again, add up the fleet and number of passengers carried by pre-merger DL and pre-merger NW, you'll find that the merged DL now carries fewer passengers and has a smaller fleet than the sum of both of their pre-merger operations. Same story with CO/UA.

Agreed. Every merger results in a somewhat smaller combined entity. DL-NW is about 20% smaller together than when they were independent. Every merger results in rebalancing of the network and hubsites to optimize connecting flows, reduce "long-and-thin" routes, and to optimize aircraft types.

The combined airline would most definetely have to optimize the flows over ORD, DFW, MIA, and CLT & PHL.
Additionally, US has a lot more CR7, CR9, E170 equipment that would most likely be shuffled around to AA hubs where AA lacks such equipment.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4069 posts, RR: 13
Reply 91, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3340 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 65):
In size, yes. Although you are skirting the fact that both STL and PIT were victims of network inefficiencies in which a given airline had two hubs in very close proximity that fought over the same traffic flows. If US had not built up PHL, PIT would have survived (and in fact is better geographically located).

I am not skirting anything. You are.

Distances:
STL-ORD 260 mi
PIT-PHL 270 mi
CLT-DCA 330 mi

If STL and PIT are "very close proximity" to ORD and PHL respectivelly, then CLT is in "close proximity" to DCA.

DCA has limited facilities, but airlines succeed when they make money, not when they just have big hubs.



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User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 92, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3331 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 91):
DCA has limited facilities, but airlines succeed when they make money, not when they just have big hubs.

CLT-DCA is about the same distance as LAX-SFO. Should UA close the LAX focus?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 93, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3284 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 92):
CLT-DCA is about the same distance as LAX-SFO. Should UA close the LAX focus?

I don't want to speak for incitatus, but it hardly seems as if he was arguing CLT or DCA should be closed. (What is in the water in Charlotte for people to be so sensitive?)

That said, if SFO was operating at an 85% connecting percentage and LAX was operating at a more profitable 30% connecting percentage, if I were United, I surely wouldn't be too concerned about poaching connecting traffic in SFO by adding nonstop destinations from LAX.

Obviously, SFO isn't operating at an 85% connecting percentage, and that is precisely the point.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 94, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 93):
That said, if SFO was operating at an 85% connecting percentage and LAX was operating at a more profitable 30% connecting percentage, if I were United, I surely wouldn't be too concerned about poaching connecting traffic in SFO by adding nonstop destinations from LAX.

Neither would I, but the analogy fails because DCA is slotted, has a (softened) perimeter rule and lacks FIS. US cannot add flights from DCA to LAX, LHR or MEX and already connects folks on itineraries like BDL-RDU there.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 95, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3260 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 94):
Neither would I, but the analogy fails because DCA is slotted, has a (softened) perimeter rule and lacks FIS. US cannot add flights from DCA to LAX, LHR or MEX and already connects folks on itineraries like BDL-RDU there.

Of course. What I was implying (although admittedly not doing a very good job at it) was that I am sure the buildup of DCA inevitably resulted in reduced connecting traffic over CLT in at least some city-pairs.

(Unless most people just have a preference to connect in cities with a large banking presence, that is.)


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 96, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 95):
What I was implying (although admittedly not doing a very good job at it) was that I am sure the buildup of DCA inevitably resulted in reduced connecting traffic over CLT in at least some city-pairs.

I think that's right, but remember that the DCA operation (and the LGA operation before it) has long had a lot of connecting possibilities because in a lot of markets the need for frequency means flying a lot of empty seats around. There are more connecting possibilities at DCA now, but in a big picture sense connecting at DCA is nothing new.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

This thread may make my head explode.

The comparison between ATL and CLT is insane, on both sides of the argument. CLT is not ATL. They're not even close in terms of population, corporate travel, convention and meeting travel, and O&D. (Although some people on this board--not necessarily in this thread--have posted for years with such contempt for CLT as though Charlotte is some kind of isolated hillbilly backwater.) That being said, CLT has served its purpose quite nicely for many years (as the second biggest city in the southeast outside of Florida) and likely will continue to do so in the future. Would it lose some of its stature in a merger? I think so, particularly for its Latin American and Caribbean flights.

But I don't see how one can look back at previous mergers, examine the case study of closing/cutting back such-and-such hub, and say the same will apply here if a US/AA marriage is consummated. This hookup would be different in many ways. Applying broad brush strokes or citing historical evidence is problematic in this case, particularly given the strength of US in the southeast. It's not going to put that strength at risk, particularly if it requires adding a lot of long thin routes.


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 98, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 97):
The comparison between ATL and CLT is insane

More like inane.

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 97):
as though Charlotte is some kind of isolated hillbilly backwater

How can it be a backwater when it has the only rollercoaster to go through 2 states?! Some of my best summers growing up were spent in Charlotte . . .

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 97):
But I don't see how one can look back at previous mergers,

The funny thing is, this isn't even the thrust of the argument being made. I'd say most of the argument has revolved around the characteristics (mainly size) of the Charlotte market itself, but these data don't seem to be acknowledged by many people in the thread.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 99, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3168 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 98):
I'd say most of the argument has revolved around the characteristics (mainly size) of the Charlotte market itself, but these data don't seem to be acknowledged by many people in the thread.

But the merger doesn't change these data. They are what they are. So to have the discussion today, it has to be about the merger, doesn't it? Otherwise, it's just a re-hash of the discussion we've been having for a decade (a decade during which, if anything, the fundamentals of the CLT hub have improved).



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User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 100, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 99):
But the merger doesn't change these data. They are what they are. So to have the discussion today, it has to be about the merger, doesn't it?

I'm not saying it does. But I'm saying there are much more substantive arguments being made here than "CLT will get smaller in a AA-US merger because MSP got smaller in the DL-NW merger."

[Edited 2012-10-10 09:01:21]

User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2010 posts, RR: 21
Reply 101, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3072 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 100):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 99):
But the merger doesn't change these data. They are what they are. So to have the discussion today, it has to be about the merger, doesn't it?

I'm not saying it does. But I'm saying there are much more substantive arguments being made here than "CLT will get smaller in a AA-US merger because MSP got smaller in the DL-NW merger."

LOL I'm not saying that "CLT will get smaller in a merger because MSP got smaller", I'm saying you would have a combination of new factors that would need to be reconciled at the the combined carrier: capacity needing to be reduced, a new network needing balancing out, and the fact that US would see it's costs going up. I'm just saying in such a scenario, I don't see CLT remaining completely unaffected, let alone growing larger than it is now.


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 102, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 101):
LOL I'm not saying that "CLT will get smaller in a merger because MSP got smaller", I'm saying you would have a combination of new factors that would need to be reconciled at the the combined carrier: capacity needing to be reduced, a new network needing balancing out, and the fact that US would see it's costs going up. I'm just saying in such a scenario, I don't see CLT remaining completely unaffected, let alone growing larger than it is now.

For the record, to avoid misinterpretation, I have found your thoughts to be well reasoned and of course I agree with you. I was just commenting on some posters' simplification of what really are substantive, difficult-to-disassemble arguments of what would happen to CLT in the case of an AA/US merger by making blanket statements such as "just because it happened in the DL/NW merger doesn't mean it's going to happen in an AA/US merger!" and ignoring the data and reasoning supporting such an argument.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 103, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 89):
The O&D stats have nothing to do with how a hub works operationally? OK, I will give you that. Don't see your point, though.

Just to add my    here to the discussion, it's seems that it's pretty much common wisdom that the airlines these days would rather have the O&D pax, since with connections yield is lowered. Nonetheless, there are going to be connecting pax, and I think that a future challenge going forward for carriers will be to higher the yield for those pax that connect.

With that said, and since the O&D is what the carriers are focusing on now, I usually question the long term survival of any "hub" where the O&D traffic is not more than at least 50% as such. And I do believe that long-term this will mean that carriers will adjust schedules at their hubs to reflect at least a 50%+ O&D rate.

I would be quite tedious at this point to figure out exactly as to what proportion each and every major airport in the nation has in terms of percentage of O&D to connect. And the hubs with the staying power are usually show this. But a couple that stand out as disproportionately high connecting to O&D are CLT and SLC. SLC plays an important role geographically for DL, as does CLT currently for US. However, in the event of this supposedly maybe-going-to-happen or maybe-not-going-to-happen merger with AA, I would almost bet that if it does happen, that CLT will probably remain a hub, but just be right-sized to where overall operations and seats will reflect something in line with having over at least 50% O&D.

Again, just my   


 


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 104, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3017 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 103):
With that said, and since the O&D is what the carriers are focusing on now, I usually question the long term survival of any "hub" where the O&D traffic is not more than at least 50% as such.

50%-60% connecting is probably a good rule of thumb for a "sustainable" hub, other assumptions (such as yield, domestic-international mix, etc.) unchanged.

Quoting point2point (Reply 103):
I would be quite tedious at this point to figure out exactly as to what proportion each and every major airport in the nation has in terms of percentage of O&D to connect.

Actually, the data are out there--it's not like they're big secrets. Of course I say that, but then again I can't point you to a list! If you look at the originating passenger rankings in the report in reply 66 and divide by enplaned passengers per DoT Form T100 for an estimate of the originating percentage. Some airports (your home airport DEN being one of them, I believe) require airlines to report originating and connecting passenger traffic separately and include them on their own internal reports, typically available on airport operator websites.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7808 posts, RR: 25
Reply 105, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3012 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 104):
50%-60% connecting is probably a good rule of thumb for a "sustainable" hub, other assumptions (such as yield, domestic-international mix, etc.) unchanged.

I think ATL and DFW may be higher than 60% but Im not sure.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 106, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2998 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 105):
I think ATL and DFW may be higher than 60% but Im not sure.

ATL is indeed closer to 70%. DFW's is 58% (can be calculated from data on page 274 of that document at DFW's website . . . I thought you would have read the document by now!).


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2955 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 104):
Actually, the data are out there--it's not like they're big secrets.

Yes, I know, but it's not like these numbers are on one list..... a few sources like individual airport websites, or some math has to be done to figure this out, etc.



Quoting neveragain (Reply 106):
ATL is indeed closer to 70%. DFW's is 58% (can be calculated from data on page 274 of that document at DFW's website . . . I thought you would have read the document by now!).

Well, AA has been losing money for years now, eh? And what will the final product look like when AA is done with all of its adjustments when exiting BK? Could one think that DFW could be right-sized a bit more? And now with NK and VX entering the picture and focusing on the O&D, anyone think that the percentage there will not be shifting in favor of the O&D pax?

As for ATL, well, look at what WN is doing to FL now that they have them there. More right-sizing so that eventually O&D will be at some decent percentage at ATL so that connections are such a big part of the picture?

Quoting neveragain (Reply 104):
Some airports (your home airport DEN being one of them, I believe) require airlines to report originating and connecting passenger traffic separately and include them on their own internal reports, typically available on airport operator websites.

Yes, all true...... but even with a highly competitive 3 carrier battle going on in DEN, it's O&D has been anywhere from about 51% to 54% over the last few years. Sustainable would one think?

So I hear what all are saying here, but just something to think about when watching the airline changes over the next few years. And I don't think that anyone can deny that the carriers are all saying that they are trying to downsize the connecting and focusing on the O&D, which everyone and their mother's uncle admit is where the better yields are, eh?

And does anyone think that CLT might somehow just be able to operate outside of some norm here? I think that it will get tougher as time goes on.

 


User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2919 times:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 97):
But I don't see how one can look back at previous mergers, examine the case study of closing/cutting back such-and-such hub, and say the same will apply here if a US/AA marriage is consummated.
Quoting neveragain (Reply 98):
The funny thing is, this isn't even the thrust of the argument being made. I'd say most of the argument has revolved around the characteristics (mainly size) of the Charlotte market itself, but these data don't seem to be acknowledged by many people in the thread.
Quoting neveragain (Reply 102):
I was just commenting on some posters' simplification of what really are substantive, difficult-to-disassemble arguments of what would happen to CLT in the case of an AA/US merger by making blanket statements such as "just because it happened in the DL/NW merger doesn't mean it's going to happen in an AA/US merger!" and ignoring the data and reasoning supporting such an argument.

Just to be clear, I was arguing against the same simplification in my earlier post.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7808 posts, RR: 25
Reply 109, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2874 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 106):
ATL is indeed closer to 70%. DFW's is 58% (can be calculated from data on page 274 of that document at DFW's website . . . I thought you would have read the document by now!).

I cant open it on my work computer and I had band practice last night! Im going to read it tonight tho.  



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 89):
Of course I agree with most of your post, but I'm not so sure how much of a factor that will be. I believe both airports have residual agreements. In the short run, the vast majority of costs are fixed (i.e., not many expenses are activity-dependent). As long as US/AA controls the majority of traffic at either airport, be it 15m enplaned passengers at MIA or 5m, it's going to get more or less the same bill. In the long run, costs will be most dependent upon which facilities get built, the decision for which involves consultation with AA.

Stated differently, AA's total costs at MIA are not going to change much if activity increases or decreases. Unit costs will, of course. As long as AA wants to have a big presence in Latin America, MIA will be the gateway. Any unit cost advantage at CLT or DFW is not going to outweigh the revenue disadvantage of those airports relative to Miami.

CPE are not based completely on fixed numbers. MIA's CPE, already among the country's highest, is expected to more than double in the upcoming years as the airport begins to "pay" for AA's horrendously mismanaged North Terminal construction project. One of the largest cost hikes has been in landing fees. Yes, the more traffic, the lower CPE, but CPE is just an average measure of a multitude of costs (some fixed, some fixed-per-aircraft, etc.).

Of course, I wasn't implying that a merged US-AA would defer focus on MIA; instead, I was attempting to imply a merged company would be hesitant to move traffic flows. Consolidation of some Caribbean flights (CLT frequently has greater capacity to places like PUJ compared to MIA) would seem like a natural synergy, but if it's not cost effective, CLT would get a reprieve. Similarly, a merged company could choose to push secondary, connecting SDQ flows through CLT. Of course, when we write out these things, we make them seem much simpler than they really are.

[Edited 2012-10-10 13:59:08]


Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 111, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2829 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 104):
50%-60% connecting is probably a good rule of thumb for a "sustainable" hub, other assumptions (such as yield, domestic-international mix, etc.) unchanged.

I also would like to add here that the the availability of the longer-haul international destinations might also help the overall big yield picture with regards to the connecting pax. I haven't played around with some of those numbers yet to make any determinations as to that - at least in my own thinking. So even if I would think that currently a presence of the int'l might be able to absorb some of the lower yield domestic connects into it and still be able to satisfy a carrier's overall expectations as to a connect pax yield, as competition may increase, carriers will only be flying int'l at those points where O&D may have to meet a certain percentage, and that too may become 50%+.

So at present, a 50%+ O&D threshold may be more the norm of what carriers will be expecting from their hubs, at least in terms of domestic traffic as for now. I don't know that this is anyone's given, but especially as the the price of fuel increases, I think that the airlines will focus the connects as to where best the O&D of any individual flight will be achieving some sort of set standard.

I think that all of my above make some sense.....

 


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 112, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 110):
Of course, when we write out these things, we make them seem much simpler than they really are.

Ain't that the truth?

Quoting point2point (Reply 111):
I also would like to add here that the the availability of the longer-haul international destinations might also help the overall big yield picture with regards to the connecting pax. I haven't played around with some of those numbers yet to make any determinations as to that - at least in my own thinking. So even if I would think that currently a presence of the int'l might be able to absorb some of the lower yield domestic connects into it and still be able to satisfy a carrier's overall expectations as to a connect pax yield, as competition may increase, carriers will only be flying int'l at those points where O&D may have to meet a certain percentage, and that too may become 50%+.

You're absolutely correct that judging a hub's profitability involves a much deeper analysis then the application of an otherwise arbitrary 50%-60% "rule." Obviously the biggest factors are revenues, which are a function of yield and volume, and how they compare with costs.

The data I have show DEN having an originating percentage of 55%, certainly on the high end of other connecting hub airports. However, I'd be surprised if DEN were terribly profitable for any of the airlines serving it due to the high degree of competition. That said, I haven't looked at the actual data, so this assertion is just conjecture.

But that discussion probably doesn't belong in a thread on whether US is likely to start CLT-GEG nonstop.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4146 posts, RR: 8
Reply 113, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2736 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 91):
I am not skirting anything. You are.

By not bringing up DCA, which indeed has nothing to do with...anything?

Quoting incitatus (Reply 91):
DCA has limited facilities, but airlines succeed when they make money, not when they just have big hubs.

How much money DCA makes is of no consequence because it's not a hub. The point at hand was redundant *hubs*. DCA as the situation stands could NEVER handle the traffic flows of CLT, whereas ORD and PHL could do so rather easily with their respective nearby competitors due to lack of meaningful restrictions.


User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2481 times:



Maybe a Tech-Ops question from an aviation novice but what is that in the Red box ?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 115, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2460 times:

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 114):
Maybe a Tech-Ops question from an aviation novice but what is that in the Red box ?

IIRC, that's the proposed intermodal facility.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 115):
IIRC, that's the proposed intermodal facility.

Now i see thanks & found the article below with pic.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/job.../09/can-charlotte-rise-again/3153/


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 117, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 114):
Maybe a Tech-Ops question from an aviation novice but what is that in the Red box ?

Combination of intermodal facility and surface car parking (likely both for additional expansion and reprovision of car parking displaced from terminal area. The rental cars have to go somewhere to accommodate the planned international concourse...

Not to mention the high-speed rail to Atlanta!

Only joking...

[Edited 2012-10-11 07:15:39]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 118, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 117):
The rental cars have to go somewhere to accommodate the planned international concourse...

Aren't they going in the bottom of the new hourly garages?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinesaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 11
Reply 119, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

Is there actually serious talk of GRR for US Airways? I hear this brought up again and again but they pulled out a number of years ago and they seem to code share with United on flights to GRR. I have no idea of the business sense for flights to GRR but it sure would be handy to me! 

I would think though that flights to CLT and/or PHL would have some business case. I used to take the non-stop DCA-GRR flights all the time and they were rarely full but rarely totally empty either.

I hear it mentioned a lot but never see anything concrete. Is US Airways actually considering GRR again? Or is it just wishful thinking on the part of a few random folks.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 120, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 119):

Is there actually serious talk of GRR for US Airways?

There is certainly a conceit on a.net that opening a route involves a lot of "talking" between airports and airlines. This is not the case the vast majority of the time. I'm curious to find out what people think airports and airlines talk about. A lot of the time, I have seen airlines announce a route before even consulting with the airport with regard to the availability of facilities!

I guess "talking" could involve something along the following lines:

US: "We would like to fly GRR-CLT."

GRR: "OK, that'd be great!"


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 121, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 120):
There is certainly a conceit on a.net that opening a route involves a lot of "talking" between airports and airlines. This is not the case the vast majority of the time. I'm curious to find out what people think airports and airlines talk about. A lot of the time, I have seen airlines announce a route before even consulting with the airport with regard to the availability of facilities!

There are plenty of cases where there are "talks" / "Meetings" / "discussions" - almost in every single case when there are incentives or grants involved.

Usually, when an airline wants to start service, there is little discussion, unless it is a new carrier to the airport where they have to work out leases and fees.

There is usually much more discussion when an airline is trying to lure new service, particularly when the business case isn't there without incentives. You see this a lot with small and mid-sized airports trying to recruit new or improved air service.


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 122, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2296 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 121):
There are plenty of cases where there are "talks" / "Meetings" / "discussions" - almost in every single case when there are incentives or grants involved.

And usually that's the only time such "talks" will be held that involve anything more than simple discussions involving lease terms. And these circumstances probably accounts for less than 10% of new route openings (and lead to 90% of route closures).


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