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Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M  
User currently offlineSandgroper From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 73 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8597 times:

Given the horrendous hours of delays with planes queuing for slots on one effective runway it is pleasing to see that Perth Airport are finally looking at a solution with a 2nd parallel runway. Spending $750M to upgrade terminals the report states lack of runway capacity would be like cutting off the blood supply.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...-congestion-costs-businesses-dear/


Sandgroper
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8577 times:

Hmm, what are current ops like. AIUI at MEL one runway is used for take offs while the other is used for landings. Not sure if that would work at PER due to the shortness of the second runway.

User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8318 times:

If the third runway finally gets built it will be a great benefit. In the 2009-2014 Master Plan it was listed as long term and for some time between 2022 and 2029! Obviously you can't rush these things.  

But will it meet any objection from Len Buckeridge?

I know that in May last year, when Westralia Airports Corporation wanted to extend 06/24 they came up against a snag. As part of the project they wanted to install some High Intensity Approach Lighting on part of some land leased to BGC for a brickworks. Len Buckeridge lodged a writ in the Federal Court to try and prevent it, arguing that he had earmarked the land for a pre-fabricated home factory - despite this never having been mentioned either in Planning or Environmental Impact Assessments. After mediation the case was scheduled to go before the court in September last year but I haven't been able to track down the outcome.

The new 2,700 metre parallel runway, 03R/21L, would see aircraft approaching or departing over the same land.


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3115 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8213 times:

Quoting Sandgroper (Thread starter):


Given the horrendous hours of delays with planes queuing for slots on one effective runway

Why is it considered "only one" effective runway, when PER has two perfectly good ones?

[Edited 2012-10-07 04:49:09]


FLYi
User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 741 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8095 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 1):
Hmm, what are current ops like. AIUI at MEL one runway is used for take offs while the other is used for landings. Not sure if that would work at PER due to the shortness of the second runway.

I think that can only be done in summer months due to prevailing winds - someone with inside knowledge might be able to fill us in on the full story.


Regards,
StickShaker


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2591 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8040 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting PITrules (Reply 3):
Why is it considered "only one" effective runway, when PER has two perfectly good ones?

Because they cross over, meaning only one can be used at any one time.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4823 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7972 times:

Been taking a look at the master plan from 2009 and there are plans to build a terminal similar to that of MEL with International & Domestic flights under the one roof... I wonder why these plans have been dropped in favor of the recent proposal...

2009

http://www.perthairport.com.au/Files...Masterplan_November_2009_FINAL.pdf

NEW Proposal

http://www.perthairport.com.au/Libra..._Plan_Final_-_June_20101.sflb.ashx

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7006 times:

How in the hell does a runway cost 600 million tjat seems like an awful lot for a few km of concrete

User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3115 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6751 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 5):

Because they cross over, meaning only one can be used at any one time.

They cross over, sure, but by no means should that mean only one can be used. With the usual wake turbulence and/or in trail spacing between departing aircraft on one runway, there should be enough time to lunch aircraft between that gap on the other runway.

Or with the minimum 3 miles of spacing between landing aircraft they can depart through the gap on the cross runway.

Consider BOS, ORD, LGA, and many others. LGA pumps 400,000 operations with an airfield essentially the same capacity as PER. Also, during a departure push in a southerly configuration PER should be able to launch off 24 and regional aircraft off 21 from the first intersection south of 6/24. There should be enough length for all the regional aircraft, essentially giving PER two non intersecting departure runways.

From the article:
"And a recent study by air traffic control experts found much of Perth's airport and airspace capacity was unused because of failure to adopt better practices."

This very much appears to be the case, and I otherwise fail to see how PER allows itself to get so backed up on 'only' 142,000 yearly movements.

[Edited 2012-10-07 12:24:48]


FLYi
User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6545 times:

Brisbane has one effective runway and significantly more movements and passengers.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6430 times:

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 7):
How in the hell does a runway cost 600 million tjat seems like an awful lot for a few km of concrete

Seems to be in the usual range. The new 14,000 x 200 ft. (4,300 x 61m) parallel runway now under construction at YYC has been quoted at $500 million CAD (about $510m USD or $502m AUD).
http://www.yyc.com/Default.aspx?cid=312&lang=1

Plus another almost $300 million for a road tunnel under it.
http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...projects/Airport-Trail-Tunnel.aspx


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8439 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6309 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 9):
Brisbane has one effective runway and significantly more movements and passengers.

But BNEs runways don't intersect so they can get more use out of the second runway.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 6166 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 11):
But BNEs runways don't intersect so they can get more use out of the second runway.

a) That may be but in practice runway 14/32 is only ever used by general aviation. Of which there isn't very much.
b) That only allows simultaneous use for take offs
c) It is currently/about to be shut for some time for some works and it will only have a small impact on ops.


User currently offlineeaglefarm4 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 418 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 6060 times:

In regards to YBBN lately only one runway is used about 90% of the time when RWY 01 is in use and basically nil when when RWY 19 is in use.AT night only 01 or 19 is used except in the quiet periods when freighters land on 14 or 32 providing there is no traffic for the main runway at the time.This is due a incident nearly a year ago which has changed the way they do cross runway operations.

In regards to what Geek had said is incorrect.RWY 14 and 32 can land up to 737 size and Alliance F100'S constantly land 14 on a daily basis if RWY 01 is in operation.Q400'S,Dash 8's and ATR'S and Dorniers use RWY 14 or 32 daily if 01 is the active.At night 146 freighters land RWY14 or 32 for noise abatement when RWY 01 or 19 has no traffic.

Last Tuesday BNE handled 704 movements a new record with effectively 90-95% using 1 runway.



tourismman
User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5906 times:

I'm aware that 14/32 CAN be used by up to 737s. I've just never seen it happen. I wasn't aware of the Alliance F100 movements - are they mining charters?

User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5644 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 14):
I'm aware that 14/32 CAN be used by up to 737s. I've just never seen it happen. I wasn't aware of the Alliance F100 movements - are they mining charters?



Most of them fly to ROK from what I have seen. Alliance has alot of flights out of BNE


User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 914 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5451 times:

Think of how much a small patio would cost,then multiply the area by 5 -10,000, throw in the earthmoving to make it sufficiently flat but with just the right slopes for drainage, put in all the utilities that you might expect to cross it for the next 50 years, tunnels and culverts for drainage that can support an A-380 slapping the ground and then build it with an astonishing thickness. There is a lot of earthmoving and concrete involved. Concrete is made by roasting the ingredients in a kiln. The energy cost is immense.

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8841 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5354 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 3):

When runways intersect, airlines and regulators consider them to be a single runway, as a disabled aircraft, damage, works, on the intersection takes both out.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 12):

BNE has been effectively down to single runway ops for a while now, I understand there was an incident with a conflict between a landing n 14 and takeoff on 01. I have seen published notams for traffic holding into BNE these days due to this.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3115 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5321 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
When runways intersect, airlines and regulators consider them to be a single runway, as a disabled aircraft, damage, works, on the intersection takes both out.

That may technically be true. Semantics aside, for the purpose of discussing runway capacity I don't see why that matters, as PER has two runways that could be used as described in reply #8.



FLYi
User currently offlinesydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 2905 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5251 times:

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 7):
How in the hell does a runway cost 600 million tjat seems like an awful lot for a few km of concrete

There is also a whole lot of siteworks, taxiways and moving of various roadways etc that have to happen with it. So it's not just building a runway, they're starting from scratch on the other side of Horrie Miller Drive in order to do it.

To quote from the article;

"But airport chief executive Brad Geatches blames bad forecasting by all parties and inefficient airspace design for the problems.

"Governments, airlines and the resource sector all dramatically underestimated the growth and it should come as no surprise, therefore, that Perth Airport underestimated the demand," he said."

What a complete load of crap. The fact is that the people running Perth Airport are incompetent and have done virtually nothing over the decade or so this mining boom has been gearing up and going for to ensure the airport has sufficient capacity to handle it. They've had their heads in the sand and have been too busy taking their profits out of it without significantly investing in terminal and runway capacity.


User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 741 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

Quoting aklrno (Reply 16):
tunnels and culverts for drainage that can support an A-380 slapping the ground and then build it with an astonishing thickness.

An airport runway has to be built to much higher engineering standards than a conventional road - in terms of landing aircraft it has to bear loads exceeding 500 tonnes travelling at around 150kts and descending at several meters per second. Thats a pretty demanding set of specifications. You also dont want pot-holes appearing after a few years wear and tear as occurs with many roads.

Quoting sydscott (Reply 19):
The fact is that the people running Perth Airport are incompetent and have done virtually nothing over the decade or so this mining boom has been gearing up and going for to ensure the airport has sufficient capacity to handle it.

When you have a privately owned monopoly, companies will be reactive rather than pro-active. PER has been growing at about 9% to 10% per year for the last 8 years - it was always going to catch up with the sluggish plans of the airport owners.


Regards,
StickShaker


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8841 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 18):

If you ignore the terrain to the east, city to the west, ga airport to the SW, and military airport to the north, declared distances, required gradients, taxiway limitations, parking limitations, refueling limits, no cat 2/3 capability, ATC limits, and the regular moderate low level wind shear off the hills.

Yes it is just as you make out, an isolated airport in the middle of nowhere, that gets the same sort of funding as BOS, ORD, or LGA.   



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3115 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5080 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
If you ignore the terrain to the east, city to the west, ga airport to the SW, and military airport to the north, declared distances, required gradients, taxiway limitations, parking limitations, refueling limits, no cat 2/3 capability, ATC limits, and the regular moderate low level wind shear off the hills.

Yes it is just as you make out, an isolated airport in the middle of nowhere, that gets the same sort of funding as BOS, ORD, or LGA

How am I ignoring any of that? And are you suggesting certain runways at PER are not usable for takeoff?

As far as funding goes, other than completing some parallel taxiways PER already has the necessary airfield infrastructure in place to handle what they have. As has already been pointed out, the problems seem to be institutional.



FLYi
User currently offlineweebie From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5046 times:

Perth is one of the most expensive cities in the world and with that comes expensive labour costs.

User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 914 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4727 times:

One cost I didn't mention above is land acquisition. Is all the land already owned by the airport or do they have to buy some?

25 sydscott : It's all airport land. They don't have to buy any. If the owners of PER need a lesson on terminal building they merely need to go to ADL and look at
26 maxter : Have taken 8 trips out of PER over the last 10 weeks mostly to FIFO destinations all before 07:00 in the morning and of the 8, 7 were delayed for more
27 zeke : Can I ask, how many times have you been to PER, sounds like zero. Yes the short PER runway is not suitable at times (temp in PER can exceed 110 degF)
28 EK413 : We got to admit ADL should be voted Australia's best... While SYD should be voted Australia's worst... As for planning for the future PER has been si
29 StickShaker : Its a real luxury if your flight from the QF domestic terminal happens to use one of the gates with an aerobridge - otherwise its a long, slow and fr
30 Post contains links PITrules : Then I'm sure you know the early mornings are the busiest for departures due to all the mining related flight activity. Now how often is it over 110
31 r2rho : Yes but at PER both runways intersect at about 1/3 of their length, with one of them being rather short, while at LGA only one runway is intersected
32 Ben175 : What about an increase in late evening services which get the FIFO workers into the mines at 10pm, and allow them to start work early the next morning
33 maxter : Then you would have to accommodate and feed them for an extra night and pay them for an extra day's (or part thereof) work.
34 EK413 : I'll have another look at the links... From what I read and the diagrams the layout has changed... EK413
35 StickShaker : The current employment agreements for the various rosters stipulate that employees travel during company time - ie paid time so it would be a costly
36 Ben175 : What about increasing capacity then and cutting frequency? Obviously harder for the smaller mining companies, but QF could shuffle around some metal.
37 maxter : Will a 763 make it into KTA in one piece? How about a full flight getting off on a 45 deg C day? Sorry don't know enough about performance of a 763 o
38 zeke : There are definitely times where only one runway can be used, if it is not the strong winds, it could be one of the frequent cold fronts that hit the
39 sydscott : I've had the good fortune to take off in a QF 744 on PER-SYD on the short runway. I'll admit wondering how the devil we were going to do it first tim
40 StickShaker : That may be an option on RPT flights (QF, VB & XR) but much of the FIFO stuff is charter flights which are driven by client demands - they prefer
41 maxter : That has all gone towards swimming pools and sporting halls in tinpot towns like Morawa, Mullewa and Newdegate... You're right KTA is a shocker, but
42 JQflightie : one crucial thing everyone is missing here, is that, PER Airport's owners refuse to pay for it, they will only do this is if the mining companies chip
43 thegeek : Ouch. Can't the Federal govt terminate their lease for such carry ons?
44 sydscott : While Perth Airports owners can make demands, they are ultimately responsible for developing the airport infrastructure through a planning process th
45 Post contains links EK413 : Based on the comments would appear there aren't any plans to introduce a 3rd runway beyond 2025! Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce told the National P
46 sydscott : For the year ended 30/06/2012, Perth Airport delivered a return on equity of 17%. From the time the airport lease was acquired until June 30, 2012 PE
47 zeke : All the operators to the airport already make financial contributions, they are called landing fees, and parking fees. These fees are in my view are
48 BoeingVista : Seriously? This is the model that Mac Airports have used in Sydney for years! This is BAU for Australian airport operators.
49 EK413 : I don't understand why the operators continue to get away with it... It's time government steps in... You have EK telling the operators to get their a
50 Quokkas : The 2009 Master Plan had it pencilled in for some time between 2022 and 2029, as indicated in reply #2. However, there has been talk about the parall
51 maxter : Actually about 3 years ago I wrote to the Fed Transport Minister, Albanese I believe it was asking if there was a Service Level Agreement in place th
52 Post contains images r2rho : This all looks to me like a clear case of infrastructure privatization gone wrong + poor regulation (or lack thereof) by the government. Given Perth'
53 Post contains images StickShaker : Trying to force resource companies to exclusivley fund a new runway while making no similar demands upon the airlines is a blatant case of rent seeki
54 sydscott : Sydney is an airport that cannot be expanded due to political reasons and has an artifical cap placed on it by legislation. PER shouldn't be able to
55 zeke : Very little has happened in ADL, BNE, MEL to increase capacity. Everything I see has to do with increasing the retail space and parking where they ge
56 sydscott : Realistically, that's because they haven't needed to. The most pressing thing to do in Adelaide was to build a new terminal. That's been successfully
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