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BOS Terminal E - International Ops  
User currently offlineclrd4t8koff From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

Was curious about the overall functioning of the international terminal. Progressively over the last few years BOS has seen an uptick in international traffic and was curious if terminal E can support much more growth at it's current state?

Should expansion be necessary, would MASSPORT be more likely to expand E, or would they finally allow FIS at other terminals, A for example, to allow DL/AF/AZ to use those gates for arrivals/departures?

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerafflesking From Singapore, joined Mar 2007, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

Great question - I look forward to the discussion.

As it stands right now, DL's AMS and LHR flights deplane in Terminal E and are then towed to Terminal A for enplaning. This helps minimize gate usage in E for at least 3 flights a day (and likely the upcoming addition of a CDG flight on DL metal). None of the domestic terminals could easily handle FIS without considerable overhaul of the terminals as there are no sterile passageways or room for kiosks/baggage claim.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

E still has a reasonable amount of space, especially at off-peak hours.

I think moving Southwest would happen before Massport tried to build more facilities (FIS or expansion)



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2249 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2997 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 2):
I think moving Southwest would happen before Massport tried to build more facilities (FIS or expansion)

Why does Southwest operate out of terminal E in the first place? Lack of room at the other terminals?

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineclrd4t8koff From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2967 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 2):
E still has a reasonable amount of space, especially at off-peak hours.

That was my guess as well. With the rumors of Boston's next new international carrier being a middle east airline (Qatar or Emirates), they'd most likely utilize the gates in the morning, which as stated, is off-peak at current usage.

But during the evening rush, particularly late spring, summer and fall, is the terminal getting tight on space?


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8088 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2929 times:
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Quoting rafflesking (Reply 1):
As it stands right now, DL's AMS and LHR flights deplane in Terminal E and are then towed to Terminal A for enplaning. This helps minimize gate usage in E for at least 3 flights a day (and likely the upcoming addition of a CDG flight on DL metal). None of the domestic terminals could easily handle FIS without considerable overhaul of the terminals as there are no sterile passageways or room for kiosks/baggage claim.

It amazes me that Massprt will not build an FIS at terminal B for AA that DL could use too. This would leave T E for the foreign airlines which are plentyful in Boston.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 3):
Why does Southwest operate out of terminal E in the first place? Lack of room at the other terminals?

Right. But with the UA/CO merger, WN/FL merger, and AA shrinking BOS ops significantly, there is a lot of rejigging to do... If done well, there should be no problem with moving domestic carriers out of E.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
It amazes me that Massprt will not build an FIS at terminal B for AA that DL could use too. This would leave T E for the foreign airlines which are plentyful in Boston.

There is no space in any of the other terminals, and Massport isn't exactly rolling in money right now to fund expansions.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineSJCMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 3):
Why does Southwest operate out of terminal E in the first place? Lack of room at the other terminals?

Prior to the NW/DL merger, all of NW's operations were out of E, although most of it was down the stairs and around the corner. I believe WN now uses the same gates.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 2):
E still has a reasonable amount of space, especially at off-peak hours.

   If you're there around lunchtime, it's pretty much a ghost town. As the afternoon progresses, it really starts to fill up.


User currently offlinejcarv From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

US CBP can't even staff the one FIS facility they have at BOS. Adding another FIS would only stretch their staff thinner and increase already long wait times. CBP is doing nothing about adding staff at BOS. I'm sure other facilities are in same situation.

User currently offlinedfambro From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

It looks like E could be expanded to the west to add a couple of gates. But maybe not required since what BOS should get more of is direct east Asia routes that arrive in the morning and depart midday/afternoon, when the terminal is currently underutilized. PEK? PVG? ICN? HKG when the A350s come on line?

User currently offlinecjpark From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2534 times:

Not so related question, first time to connect at BOS which is the easiest way to connect between terminals. Terminal B from AA to Terminal E BA. Airport web site mentions two ways the bus and the walk ways. Which method is best?


"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4122 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 3):

Why does Southwest operate out of terminal E in the first place? Lack of room at the other terminals?

Thenoflyzone

Historically, the gates where WN operates out of were the gates that NW used for years until the DL merger, where they consolidated in A which easily had room for the combined operation. WN didn't start service in BOS until right around the same time. With gate space at a premium just about everywhere else, plus given the fact that gates E1A-E1E are not linked to customs and are by nature domrestic gates, this was the logical place for Massport to locate them. Though if Massport came up with a way to link this area to the upper level of C with a TSA checkpoint or something, I would think that WN could take over the UA ticket counter after UA is relocated to B.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 6):

Right. But with the UA/CO merger, WN/FL merger, and AA shrinking BOS ops significantly, there is a lot of rejigging to do... If done well, there should be no problem with moving domestic carriers out of E.

The problem is that both UA and AA have spent millions of dollars on their BOS facilities over the years, and AA doesn't want to give up something that they invested money in. Call it gate hoarding if you will..but it does happen. I know people on here would rather the airlines invest in their own facilities, but this is what happens as a result, and its why I think the airports, and not the airlines (Outside of the real major hubs such as ORD, ATL, DFW, etc) should be the ones investing in improvements. LAS shows you exactly how to do it right too.

Quoting cjpark (Reply 10):


Not so related question, first time to connect at BOS which is the easiest way to connect between terminals. Terminal B from AA to Terminal E BA. Airport web site mentions two ways the bus and the walk ways. Which method is best?

Massport shuttle bus 11 leaves from just outside baggage claim and takes very little time. It is walkable, but the walk takes about 20 minutes or so depending on how fast you walk.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):

It amazes me that Massprt will not build an FIS at terminal B for AA that DL could use too. This would leave T E for the foreign airlines which are plentyful in Boston.

Prior to 9-11, the plans for BOS were much different. AA was planning to build an FIS in B and Massport signed off on it. The FIS would going to be approximately where the new UA facility is going to be built. US was going to contribute some money too and the facility was going to be shared by AA and US. However...after 9-11 really hurt the financial situation of many airlines, AA scrapped the project. Given what BOS has become for AA, probably a wise idea as the facility would have likely become a white elephant.
As for DL. The original plan for Terminal A was that terminal A was going to be the SkyTeam terminal in BOS, with all the skyteam airlines consolidating in A after it was built. I do not believe an FIS was ever in the plans (Bad mistake by both DL and Massport), but the plan was that Terminal A was going to be DL, AF, Air Jamaica, and AZ (NW and KLM were not yet part of SkyTeam). The terminal A project nearly got cancelled after 9-11, but Massport cut a deal with DL and the project went forward, however DL shelved BOS plans for a while, and the terminal became half empty because Massport had also just renovated Terminal E, and moving the other SkyTeam airlines to A would have meant that the current E hall would have gotten less use than envisioned, so Massport didn't allow those airlines to move. They also convinced Virgin Atlantic to move to E for the same reason. (Ironically, Virgin America now occupies Virgin Atlantics old space in B)


User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 11):
E1A-E1E are not linked to customs and are by nature domrestic gates, this was the logical place for Massport to locate them

I could have sworn I saw stairs leading to a hall to customs the last time I flew out of E1A on WN. I could be wrong though...

[Edited 2012-10-08 12:11:47]

User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2503 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 11):
As for DL. The original plan for Terminal A was that terminal A was going to be the SkyTeam terminal in BOS, with all the skyteam airlines consolidating in A after it was built. I do not believe an FIS was ever in the plans (Bad mistake by both DL and Massport),

DL wanted a FIS but Massport shot it down. I bet they wish it would have been put in or at least made easy to retrofit one when the need and money was available.


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4122 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2261 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 12):

I could have sworn I saw stairs leading to a hall to customs the last time I flew out of E1A on WN. I could be wrong though...

There are stairs that lead to the rest of the Terminal E departure lounge (E2-E8) from where WN is that is linked on the secure side which is probably what you saw. There is no way with the way the E1 gates are currently desgined to keep International Arrivals segregated from departing pasengers without shutting down the whole departure lounge.

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 13):

DL wanted a FIS but Massport shot it down. I bet they wish it would have been put in or at least made easy to retrofit one when the need and money was available.

This doesn't make sense though. Why did massport greenlight a Terminal B project for US and AA and then not do the same for DL? Granted the FIS project in B never got built because of budget cuts post 9-11, but still. The only possible reason is because Massport knew that DL was going to move all the Skyteam airlines to A upon completion of such a project, which would have made the money spent on E wasted. Still....Massport spent so much time and money on 14-32 which has turned out to be a waste of money for the most part since most of the BOS traffic these days cannot even use the runway. (There is still regional traffic in BOS, but it does seem like there is much more mainline traffic there these days)

Two other points I want to make. One is that when Terminal E was rebuilt, Massport talked about adding three gates to E for International Arrivals. These have not been built and theoretically could easily be built with minimal disruption. Also mentioned as part of this is a potential future terminal F. If you did build it now, you could do so many things with it and really make the airport run more smoothly. Secondly is massport had plans to add a people mover (Similar to ORD and JFK) but scrapped it citing cost. I think they need to find a way to get this built. The airport roadways at BOS are near saturation, particularly in terminal B which will only get worse with UA being added there. A people mover would allow Massport to retire the shuttle bus fleet, eliminate the need for Rental Car courtesy buses, and would allow Massport to potentially consolidate where the Logan Express and other buses drop off at the airport, which will free up a lot of congestion curbside, which is a major problem at BOS.

The way BOS is configured these days...the only thing that I think could really help the airport meet its potential is for the entire terminal complex to be gutted and rebuilt. The problem is, that won't happen without major disruptions, something no politician or airline would ever agree to.


User currently offlinejcarv From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2253 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 12):

You are correct. There is a door right outside the Gate E1A that would lead to CBP but historically hasn't been used for many years for international purposes. CBP approval would be needed and minor modifications made elsewhere to make it permanent.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24307 posts, RR: 47
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

Quoting jcarv (Reply 8):
CBP is doing nothing about adding staff at BOS. I'm sure other facilities are in same situation.

Its a nationwide funding issue. Blame Congress.

Multiple customs districts have significant staffing needs, but cannot get funds to cover them.

The Los Angeles port district (covers airport, harbor etc.) has over 200 unfunded positions.
At LAX, we have about 60 immigration booths spread out between 5 terminals but can only staff about 20 continually. Rest require juggling staff from terminal to terminal.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2805 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2121 times:

Aer Lingus can be moved out of E if push came to shove. Their flights are precleared at Dublin and Shannon so there's no real need for them there. That would free up to three flights ("slots" if you will) per day at the international terminal. The question is, is there room for them to co-locate with JetBlue or United?


Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineclrd4t8koff From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2095 times:

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 17):

Interesting, they're doing this @ JFK soon, I'm sure terminal C could handle an EI A330, but depends on how maxed out B6 is during the evening rush?


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4122 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2043 times:

Terminal C would be the most likely for Aer Lingus as it is widebody capable, but likely won't be able to until UA is moved out. TWA used to park widebodies over there for many years.

CBP is a major problem that needs additional funding. I think a creative solution would be that if TSA allowed airports to opt out and use private TSA approved security companies, then money that TSA saves from that could be redirected to hiring more CBP agents at some of these overcrowded airports.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2030 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 19):
CBP is a major problem that needs additional funding. I think a creative solution would be that if TSA allowed airports to opt out and use private TSA approved security companies, then money that TSA saves from that could be redirected to hiring more CBP agents at some of these overcrowded airports.

The TSA does allow that. And some airports have taken part - SFO notably.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4122 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):

The TSA does allow that. And some airports have taken part - SFO notably.

They do.....but the current administration has made it nearly impossible for new airports to participate in the program. They cite cost concerns but in my opinion it is just the administration protecting union workers. What I am saying is they need to make it easier for more airports to participate, not deny the requests of all these airports that want to participate but can't. SFB found out how hard it is, but fortunately their congressman is John Mica who is very influential in these matters, otherwise they might not have pulled it off.

Before my post sounds too political...I believe of most of the major airports in this country, BOS currently has about 10 or 11 TSA checkpoints, including a whopping 6 in Terminal B alone. I believe of all the major airports in this country, only LAX, JFK, DFW and MCI come close, for various reasons. If they are going to add Customs in other terminals to ease the pressure off of E, wouldn't it make sense to consolidate some of these checkpoints at the same time, that way everyone wins?


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7868 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1848 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
It amazes me that Massprt will not build an FIS at terminal B for AA that DL could use too. This would leave T E for the foreign airlines which are plentyful in Boston.

For an airport like BOS where no single airline is that dominant, an no airline has a hub there, it makes little sense to build another CBP facility. Lets say they build CBP at another terminal then the airline decides to pull all its international flights, shrink, and/or go bankrupt. Then what?

It's a much better business decision to have one international terminal with common use gates, and improve transfers between terminals. That's exactly what Massport has been doing albeit, very slow for my opinion. I think that during the afternoon international rush hour, they should run dedicated airside shuttle buses between terminals.

Quoting cjpark (Reply 10):
Not so related question, first time to connect at BOS which is the easiest way to connect between terminals. Terminal B from AA to Terminal E BA. Airport web site mentions two ways the bus and the walk ways. Which method is best?

Unless you have time to spare and enjoy walking, take the shuttle bus. The walk is all indoors though, but it's at least 20 minutes. Personally I would walk because I like to walk but most people aren't like me  
Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 13):
DL wanted a FIS but Massport shot it down. I bet they wish it would have been put in or at least made easy to retrofit one when the need and money was available.

That only tells half the story. FIS is a federal facility, not a Massport facility. The Feds would have had to agree to staff it too, which as I understand it, they didn't wan to.

As far as expanding E. Terminal E is the one terminal at Logan with room to expand but I suspect that the deciding factor won't be congestion but rather aircraft size. If Masport feels that it needs to accomodate the A380 or future generation of Group VI aircraft, they will expand terminal E. As others have said it, terminal E is vastly unused during most of the day. There are plenty of available gates for flights to Asia which JL is taking full advantage of currently.


User currently offlinecjpark From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
Unless you have time to spare and enjoy walking, take the shuttle bus. The walk is all indoors though, but it's at least 20 minutes. Personally I would walk because I like to walk but most people aren't like me

Thank you for the information.

Is the walking route in the secured area? I don't mind the walk I just hate having to go through security again. The bus route definitely means going back through security.



"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
User currently offlineEI320 From Ireland, joined Dec 2007, 1426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1522 times:

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 17):
Aer Lingus can be moved out of E if push came to shove. Their flights are precleared at Dublin and Shannon so there's no real need for them there.

EI133 DUB-BOS clears immigration in BOS.


25 airbazar : No, you'll need to reclear security. However terminal E security is really easy. I'm sitting at terminal E right now and I had no security line whats
26 tharanga : I agree with this. If you want to spend less time, take the shuttle bus. However, if you don't mind a longish walk, and if you like this sort of thin
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