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Laser Strikes Against Airplanes Now An "epidemic"  
User currently offlineFlyKev From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6633 times:
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An interesting article from Ars Technica that I read recently:

You may not be the kind of person who gets his kicks by standing at the end of a runway and firing a small laser into the cockpit of jets during their takeoffs and landings—but plenty of other people are. In 2005, the FBI only heard about 283 such incidents; this year, it expects to record 3,700.
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/...irplanes-now-an-epidemic-says-fbi/

This is obviously quite a growing concern as it is such a dangerous activity for anyone to be involved with. I know a 14 year old round here who brought a green laser off of eBay so he could shine it on people from afar and annoy them; I just hope he hasn't / doesn't shine it on any aircraft round here given our proximity to LCY.

I'm curious to hear if anyone has experience this first hand or knows of it or what peoples opinions on this activity are.

Kev.


The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6620 times:

It's been a huge issue in PHX. At least the police are doing something about it:
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region...ced-for-pointing-laser-at-aircraft
http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/L...nix-news-helicopter-116919468.html

Quoting USAToday:
This year, Phoenix and the Dallas-Fort Worth areas lead the nation with 45 incidents each.
http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/s...shing-lasers-at-planes-/47854794/1



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6602 times:

This is a big problem. I have seen an uptick of these incidents at work in recent weeks, and I have heard of pilots suffering eye damage and having to be pulled off trips because of this. This needs to be addressed, and it is, but there needs to be much more education of the public on this, because I think most of them are not aware of just how dangerous this is.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25346 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6517 times:

Usually several such reports almost every day in the Transport Canada daily occurrence summary. 51 reports in the past month alone. On a worldwide basis there must be hundreds every day.

A few examples just from the past month involving Canada. There are a few dozen more:

WJA 192, WestJet Boeing 737-700, was en route from Victoria to Edmonton and on descent when the crew reported being struck by a green laser when 45 NM southwest of CYEG at 16,000 feet. The laser appeared to originate from the town of Breton, AB.

The pilot of HAWC 2, a Calgary Police Eurocopter EC-120B helicopter, reported being hit by a green laser 3.5 miles south of Runway 28 and 2 miles east of Runway 34.

The WestJet Boeing 737-600 (operating as flight WJA1236) had just departed on a scheduled IFR flight from Toronto (CYYZ) to New York (La Guardia) (KLGA). NAV CANADA staff at Toronto Tower advised that the flight crew reported that their aircraft had been subject to a green laser strike while climbing southbound through 7,000 feet in the vicinity of 43º39'37"N 079º22'01"W. Peel Regional Police were advised.

The Air Canada Embraer ERJ-175 (operating as flight ACA623) was nearing the conclusion of a scheduled IFR flight from Halifax (CYHZ) to Toronto (CYYZ). NAV CANADA staff at Toronto ACC reported that a laser strike occurred when the aircraft was 10 miles final for runway 06L, descending through an altitude of 3,000 feet. Peel Regional Police were advised.

The Air Canada Embraer ERJ-175 (operating as flight ACA347) was nearing the conclusion of a scheduled IFR flight from Philadelphia (KPHL) to Toronto (CYYZ). NAV CANADA staff advised that the flight crew reported that their aircraft was subject to a laser strike when it was approximately 10NM southeast of CYYZ.

The Government of Canada, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Pilatus PC-12/47E (C-GMPO) was nearing the conclusion of an IFR flight from La Grande Rivière (CYGL) to Ottawa (CYOW). The aircraft was on a seven (7)NM final approach for runway 25 when the flight crew advised the Tower Controller that a laser had been directed at their aircraft.

The Air Canada Airbus A330-343 (C-GHKW, operating as flight ACA846) had departed on a scheduled IFR flight from Toronto (CYYZ) to Munich (EDDM). NAV CANADA staff at Toronto ACC advised that the flight crew reported that their aircraft was subject to a green laser strike when it was approximately four (4)NM north of CYYZ at an altitude of 9,000 feet. The laser appeared to originate from a residential building just east of the railway yard.

The WestJet Boeing 737-800 (C-GWSR, operating as flight WJA497) had just departed on a scheduled IFR flight from Toronto (CYYZ) to Vancouver (CYVR). NAV CANADA staff at Toronto ACC advised that the flight crew reported that their aircraft was subject to a green laser strike that appeared to originate from a position about five (5) miles distant, at their two o'clock position (near 43º54'06"N 079º29'45"W). At the time, the aircraft was flying northwest on a heading of 330º, having departed off of runway 06L at 0144Z.

The Air Canada Embraer ERJ-190 (operating as flight ACA452) was on a scheduled IFR flight from Seattle-Tacoma (KSEA) to Toronto (CYYZ). NAV CANADA staff at Toronto ACC were advised by the flight crew (at 0021Z) that their aircraft was subject to a green laser strike with it was at 43º27'25"N 080º36'20"W (approximately 45NM from the London VOR/DME on the 040º radial, at an altitude of 17,000 feet). Peel Regional Police were advised.

A Cathay Pacific Boeing 777-300 inbound to Vancouver (CYVR) from the North reported being illuminated by a green laser originating in the Park Royal (West Vancouver) area.

A Horizon Air DHC-8-401 (operating as QXE380) en route from Seattle-Tacoma (KSEA) to Victoria (CYYJ) reported a laser strike 10 NM southeast of CYYJ. RCMP advised.

The Jazz DHC-8-102 (C-FGRP, operating as Air Canada Express flight JZA8779) was nearing the conclusion of a scheduled IFR flight from Montréal (CYUL) to Ottawa (CYOW). NAV CANADA staff at Ottawa Tower advised that the flight crew reported that their aircraft had been subject to four (4) green laser strikes aimed at the cockpit when the aircraft was approximately six (6)NM final for runway 25 at an altitude of 2,500 feet. The flight crew reported that the source appeared to be at their two o'clock position, approximately four (4) miles away (vicinity of 45º23'N 075º34'W). Ottawa Police Service advised.


Very rarely they catch one. This one from November 2011:

Edmonton Police Eurocopter EC-120B helicopter was targeted by a laser from the ground about 3 miles WSW of Edmonton City Centre Airport (CYXD). No injuries or damage. Perpetrators were apprehended by police ground units.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13130 posts, RR: 100
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6490 times:
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I see a demand for a window film that filters out 633nm light (hene laser wavelength is 632.8nm)

Or an auto-target system.  

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6423 times:

I've been a passenger on five flights which I know were targeted, you can watch the laser light dance around the cabin interior when it travels in through windows. A couple of times I've been looking almost directly at the source when it has happened, never had a direct 'hit' on my eyes though, or if I had I've experienced no affect or damage.

It is completely irresponsible and foolish to carry out this kind of act.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6256 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
I see a demand for a window film that filters out 633nm light (hene laser wavelength is 632.8nm)

Or an auto-target system.

Lockheed has a system to back-trace laser illumination (I think it's intended to defend against laser-guided munitions). Can we slave that to a Nightsun spotlight? Nothing like firing your 1W green laser and getting 40 million candlepower (~1600W) back.
http://www.spectrolab.com/searchligh.../pdfs/SX-16%20020910%20REV%20E.pdf

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
It is completely irresponsible and foolish to carry out this kind of act.

If I need to submit to a proctology exam just to be a passenger and my water bottle is a weapon, anybody firing a laser at a commercial jet should be sent to Guantanamo Bay post haste.

Tom.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6212 times:

Surely the defense industry could design some gunnery to fix this problem?

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6198 times:

I have commented on this a number of times when I see these threads.
This problem could be easily ended by simply encoding a unique identification number into the laser beam itself. It would be very easy to do. A law or regulation would likely needed (otherwise some would not do it) and the manufacturers would just add the "feature" into the hardware/firmware of the laser. Then a simple detector can be on aircraft and you will know what laser is being used. From that you can determined who bought it and go from there.

Yes, it could be circumvented and used lasers might be an issue but I suspect the problem would disappear fast. The key thing is if it is a big enough problem for someone to lobby for it and apparently the problem isn't that big at this point.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19722 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6093 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
I have commented on this a number of times when I see these threads.
This problem could be easily ended by simply encoding a unique identification number into the laser beam itself. It would be very easy to do. A law or regulation would likely needed (otherwise some would not do it) and the manufacturers would just add the "feature" into the hardware/firmware of the laser. Then a simple detector can be on aircraft and you will know what laser is being used. From that you can determined who bought it and go from there.

That "simple detector" would cost thousands if not tens of thousands per aircraft.

Requiring an operator's permit for lasers over a certain power would probably help. The owner of the laser would hold the permit. If that laser is found to have been used in an attack, the owner is in hot water.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6087 times:

Its all about education........The people need to be educated about the dangers posed....that will def reduce the numbers....


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7107 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6087 times:

Quoting FlyKev (Thread starter):
I'm curious to hear if anyone has experience this first hand or knows of it or what peoples opinions on this activity are

Yea I've had a green laser shone into my eyes on numerous occasions. It can be very disorientating & annoying. In 1 case we weren't able to look outside as it was that distracting, and this was on a visual approach. That same night they shone it at an air force chopper behind us as well who went and got a GPS fix on the house. Though when the cops showed up they found nothing... go figure


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6062 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):

That "simple detector" would cost thousands if not tens of thousands per aircraft.

No it wouldn't, a laser reader is very cheap and easy to place. Grocery stores have basic versions and the telecoms industry has millions of them deployed across the nation as repeaters for their fiber networks. They are very, very simple actually and easy to make small. It's really just a lens, a reader (CCD type item) and a data storage device.

Just install one behind the windscreen and if a laser hits then download the data. Simple.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19722 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6025 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
Just install one behind the windscreen and if a laser hits then download the data. Simple.

After FAA certification and test flights and...


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13130 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6015 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
Just install one behind the windscreen and if a laser hits then download the data. Simple.

Certify the component to not injure anyone in a 9G crash. Verify the electrical operation meets aerospace codes with compatibility to aircraft electrical supply. Come up with a maintenance plan for said device. Verify materials do not create galvanic corrosion with other air vehicle materials. The begin certification of the V&V flight test plan.

The sensor could be free and it might still cost $15,000 USD per aircraft when done with all the pedigree (e.g., wiring).

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5996 times:

Sentence the few of these jerks that are caught to very stiff prison stretches. Right now, it's a game for these morons...give them a taste of how serious it is.

The first defense will be windscreen coating or even glasses to protect the eyes. The next is backtracking hardware.

It's time for law enforcement and the courts to get serious about this.



What the...?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19722 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5919 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 15):
The first defense will be windscreen coating or even glasses to protect the eyes. The next is backtracking hardware.

Are you aware if there is a way to protect specifically against laser light without reducing visibility of other lights?


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5905 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
After FAA certification and test flights and...

Easy.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
Certify the component to not injure anyone in a 9G crash. Verify the electrical operation meets aerospace codes with compatibility to aircraft electrical supply. Come up with a maintenance plan for said device. Verify materials do not create galvanic corrosion with other air vehicle materials. The begin certification of the V&V flight test plan.

The sensor could be free and it might still cost $15,000 USD per aircraft when done with all the pedigree (e.g., wiring).

No, it wouldn't. And I guarantee you that there are already detectors that are certified for commercial flight. This systems do not interfere with the other systems as they are passive, they just gather "light data". You can naysay it all you want, but if iPads can be certified for flight, so can these. I guess the question is, how valuable is the pilots sight and safety as well as that of the aircraft and passengers. The cost of a detector is low and the technology is safe and proven reliable. it would be an overall easy thing to implement.

In my mind the hard part is actually the other end of the process: Getting regulations or laws passed to require lasers to identify themselves (serial number encoded in the beam).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5893 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Are you aware if there is a way to protect specifically against laser light without reducing visibility of other lights?

Window film filter



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5867 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 18):
Window film filter

The problem is that the lasers in question are "visible light" lasers. So you would be blocking light that pilots need for their jobs. I guess you could screen very specific frequencies but I don't know if lasers are that controlled for exactly what frequency they emit on. I do not know if there are specific frequencies that they are allowed to emit on. And I also suspect it would cost more than what I am suggesting for certification. Of course the only way to know is to look into it I guess.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4403 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5831 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

There was a guy sentenced last month for doing it in Vegas, he got eight months in prison. Hopefully the word gets out to others as we need penalties like this to hopefully make people think twice before doing it.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/las-vegas-m...r-light-at-aircraft-169381346.html



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19722 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5806 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 19):
I guess you could screen very specific frequencies but I don't know if lasers are that controlled for exactly what frequency they emit on.

By definition, a laser emits at one and only one frequency. This is determined by the gain medium used in the laser, AFAIK. A 632.8nm laser will emit EXACTLY 632.8 nm wavelength +/- 0.002nm (so sayeth Wikipedia). The doppler effect from the aircraft's movement will have a larger effect than the frequency spread, most likely.

The green lasers that seem to be causing this trouble emit in that frequency. The question is whether a film could be developed that would absorb EXACTLY that frequency (+/- doppler shift) and no others. Or is there a film that might diffract highly collimated light, but not uncollimated light. I'm far from a physicist, so I don't know.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5786 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
By definition, a laser emits at one and only one frequency. This is determined by the gain medium used in the laser, AFAIK. A 632.8nm laser will emit EXACTLY 632.8 nm wavelength +/- 0.002nm (so sayeth Wikipedia). The doppler effect from the aircraft's movement will have a larger effect than the frequency spread, most likely.

The green lasers that seem to be causing this trouble emit in that frequency. The question is whether a film could be developed that would absorb EXACTLY that frequency (+/- doppler shift) and no others. Or is there a film that might diffract highly collimated light, but not uncollimated light. I'm far from a physicist, so I don't know.

Yes, I do understand that. My concern is that the laser may emit at "634.8" (vs the 632.8 you noted) and not the frequency being blocked. So while a laser may be very specific, is every manufacturer producing the exact same very specific frequency and not drifting a lot (in terms of specific frequencies).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5767 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 22):
Yes, I do understand that. My concern is that the laser may emit at "634.8" (vs the 632.8 you noted) and not the frequency being blocked. So while a laser may be very specific, is every manufacturer producing the exact same very specific frequency and not drifting a lot (in terms of specific frequencies).

That's why a better way to go about solving this problem would be to filter collimated light, but let uncollimated light through.

I'm a math person, not a physicist, so I'm not sure if it can be done (cost effectively), but it would seem to effectively solve the problem in a fairly straightforward way.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5596 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
This problem could be easily ended by simply encoding a unique identification number into the laser beam itself. It would be very easy to do. A law or regulation would likely needed (otherwise some would not do it) and the manufacturers would just add the "feature" into the hardware/firmware of the laser.

That's not simple at all. Way more effort than you're describing has gone in to serializing and ballistics checks of handguns and they're nowhere close to that working.

The law or regulation wouldn't force anyone to do it. For starters, you've got thousands of lasers out there already without such technology. On top of that, disabling it once installed would be trivial, including in undetectable and reversible ways. And then you've got the folks building their own lasers...the components to do it are too common and easily available to be meaningfully restricted. All this would do is jack up the price for the people who weren't a threat anyway.

Quoting tugger (Reply 17):
You can naysay it all you want, but if iPads can be certified for flight, so can these.

Nobody said you can't certify it. They said you can't certify it and have it be really cheap. You seem to be grossly underestimating what's required to install hardware on a commercial aircraft.

Tom.


25 DocLightning : As far as I know, the frequency is set by the gain medium used. Whether it is possible to tune a laser I don't know.
26 odwyerpw : Thanks for the moment of levity Tom. Peter
27 Post contains links ScottishDavie : Let's hope that approach crosses the Atlantic to the UK before too long. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19398619
28 art : I hope that the authorities take steps to raise the profile of this problem and particularly to publicise the harsher sentences meted out to those wh
29 Post contains images StickShaker : I think that slaving it to a 20mm cannon would be far more effective at getting the message across. Regards, StickShaker
30 pvjin : I think no education can change a total idiot to anything better, no normal people no matter their education would ever do this kind of thing. They k
31 infiniti329 : Sir I like your way of thinking, that should surely bring these incidents to a halt.. lol
32 art : A little bit more perspective? A legal system that sends people to jail for very long terms for doing something stupid that could potentially kill pe
33 tugger : I very much disagree. While the process itself of "certifying" anything for flight in a cockpit costs money, and in the thousands of dollars due to t
34 starrion : I think several hundred hours of community service wearing prison orange would be a better solution. make them do something that will make them have t
35 Post contains links speedbird118 : Right you are! My university in Singapore issued an email warning way back in July this year regarding Sky Lanterns and other stuff like lasers that
36 DLPMMM : Sorry Tugger, but you are a bit off in your analysis on this one. I have worked in the laser industry for over 30 years. First, the green lasers are
37 sejtam : Penalties for mis-deeds like this (as long as no real damage was in fact done) should be: a) a painful but not crippling fine (say a few hundred $$$ a
38 DLPMMM : I think your approach is well thought out and well stated. In addition I would add that making the fines and punishments well publicized especially f
39 tdscanuck : The "thousands of dollars" is the per unit amortization of the overall costs...overall costs are much much higher. Simplicity has nothing to do with
40 Post contains images DLPMMM : Most of these lasers don't even have any computer memory chip, much less firmware. These are basically flashlights when it comes to their electrinic s
41 Post contains links Viscount724 : $5,000 fine for someone in YYC last year. http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/07/26...or-distracting-choppers-with-laser
42 DocLightning : Yes, well, that's just the issue. Is there a way to do that? I think it's simpler to just require a permit for lasers over a certain power and hold t
43 DLPMMM : Yes, it is possible to filter or reflect very specific individual wavelengths, and multiple wavelengths simultaniously... but it will not be cost eff
44 tdscanuck : Education + *vicious* and *public* enforcement. Tom.
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