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Qatar Airways To Join Oneworld: Official  
User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2919 posts, RR: 24
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 23472 times:

QR joins oneworld, official now.

According to QRs twitter and facebook page, Qatar Airways has been invited to Join the oneworld alliance







[Edited 2012-10-08 11:15:06]


A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 23482 times:

Wonderful news! How long until they're able to fully integrate and become an official member?

User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 23117 times:

It will be funny to see AB on this. Will they codeshare with QR to BER?  

Which are the largest OW hubs not served yet by QR?

What about AY... their OW Euro-Asian routes will have a new big competitor at OW.


User currently onlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3073 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22949 times:

Great news for Oneworld!

User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2919 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22886 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 2):
Which are the largest OW hubs not served yet by QR?

DFW, LAX, SYD, HEL. All of which could possibly come online in the next few years.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22884 times:

Just visited the OW site for the first time in a while. In the middle of the page, under "Find out about" there is a rather humorous link (well, unintentionally humorous) link: "How can I join oneworld"? Maybe it just took al Baker a while to find this link . . .

User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2088 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22752 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 2):
It will be funny to see AB on this. Will they codeshare with QR to BER?

As if the webs weren't tangled enough, Etihad announced a multi-lateral codeshare with Air France, KLM and airberlin today.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
DFW, LAX, SYD, HEL. All of which could possibly come online in the next few years.

MIA as well.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2919 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22694 times:

Here is the press release. BA will sponsor QR to join oneworld

QR to join >

[Edited 2012-10-08 11:30:04]


A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3696 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22612 times:
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Quoting ojas (Reply 4):
DFW, LAX, SYD, HEL. All of which could possibly come online in the next few years.

Yes please. Qatar to DFW would be just about perfect for me.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22477 times:

Quoting ojas (Reply 4):
DFW, LAX, SYD, HEL. All of which could possibly come online in the next few years.

I wonder if SYD will be a OW hub for much longer!

Quoting neveragain (Reply 5):

Visited it early today and I also noticed it... quite funny.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6):

Interestingly, BA is sponsoring QR on OW. So things are getting funny:

QR (OW) + BA (OW)

EK (unaligned) + QF (OW)

EY (unaligned) + AFKL/AZ (ST) + AB (OW).


User currently offlineDeltaLaw From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22412 times:

Is this move the first domino to fall for Gulf Carriers entering alliances? EY to Skyteam next?

User currently offlinethomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3860 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22354 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 8):
Yes please. Qatar to DFW would be just about perfect for me.

Wonder if IAH would be in danger of losing QR, if they should decide to service DFW?



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22058 times:

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 11):
Wonder if IAH would be in danger of losing QR, if they should decide to service DFW?

I dont see why they couldnt serve both if they deem DFW worthy of service. It all depends on how closely AA and QR work together. If they arent close, DFW may not see service.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 21878 times:
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Congrats to OW and QR. With the implosion of IT, this will help fill a regional hold for OneWorld which should boost QR's revenue nicely.

Now, is anyone else waiting for AAB to blast OneWorld?   

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6):
MIA as well.

This alliance will help QR in the Americas... Tremendously. MIA should be an early 787 destination.

Quoting ojas (Reply 7):
BA will sponsor QR to join oneworld

   Ok, not that unexpected, but it is funny how things change.

Quoting DeltaLaw (Reply 10):
Is this move the first domino to fall for Gulf Carriers entering alliances? EY to Skyteam next?

As long as everyone realizes the domino will miss EK. Skyteam already has MEA and Saudia. I'm not sure the attraction for EY... *A should court EY.   

Actually, only OW was really weak in the region as *A has TK. If 9W joins *A, it would nicely 'sandwich' the region. However, if EY's potential investment keeps QR out of *A (or the GoI), than it would be 'game on' for *A.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
I dont see why they couldnt serve both if they deem DFW worthy of service.

Ditto. IAH might lose the 77L and be swapped with the 788, but I see no reason not to serve both.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 21875 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Ok, not that unexpected, but it is funny how things change.

I dont think it was unexpected. Its been the worst kept secret now for at least 2 months!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 21725 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 2):
What about AY... their OW Euro-Asian routes will have a new big competitor at OW.

They surely won't be happy about this...

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 9):
So things are getting funny:

QR (OW) + BA (OW)

EK (unaligned) + QF (OW)

EY (unaligned) + AFKL/AZ (ST) + AB (OW).

I'd say it's getting hilarious.   Interesting developments and strategy shifts going on, with no place left for loyalty or "historic" ties. One wonders what level of cooperation, if any, exists within OW, what the role or purpose of AB and QF still is, and how long they will remain in the alliance.

In the end though, the various OW members have applied a join-them-if-you-can't-beat-em strategy (IMO not coordinated with each other) and have now managed to directly or indirectly link up with all three Middle East carriers.     


User currently offlineairdfw From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 21641 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
I dont see why they couldnt serve both if they deem DFW worthy of service. It all depends on how closely AA and QR work together. If they arent close, DFW may not see service.

Isn't QR joining OW for BA and AA's FFlyer members. Otherwise what is their need? Makes sense to closely align with BA/AA and get the feeds. Isn't QF's move to DFW is paying dividents for them?


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 21594 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Ditto. IAH might lose the 77L and be swapped with the 788, but I see no reason not to serve both.

Lightsaber

Hi...I do not believe that IAH will become a B788 route because QR's B788s seat only 22J class whilst the B77L seats 42 and this is a premium heavy route averaging more than 22 pax in J class per flight year round.

What I do for see happening is IAD eventually becoming a B788 service due to the lack of beyond feed lost with the suspension of the UA intra-USA code share.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2088 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 21610 times:

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 11):
Wonder if IAH would be in danger of losing QR, if they should decide to service DFW?

QR serves IAH largely due to the Oil and Gas industry, not so much due to alliances or hub connections.

The one market I would actually question now in QR's US network is IAD, considering that now UA has entered the IADDOH space via DXB as well as ended its codeshare agreement with UA. However, it's rare that you hear of a Middle Eastern/Big Three carrier pulling out of a network route, so I don't expect this flight to be endangered.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
  Ok, not that unexpected, but it is funny how things change.

Actually, it's a game-changer for sure broadly speaking in terms of how global alliances operate, but of the three major ones, IAG and Oneworld have probably been the least vocal about any dismissive attitudes towards the Middle Eastern carriers. Lufthansa/Air Canada and Star have probably shown the greatest amount of distaste, and SkyTeam minimally through AF-KL. In fact, I'd venture to say that the AF-KL multi-lateral codeshare deal with EY and AB today is more surprising than IAG/OW/QR.

Quoting DeltaLaw (Reply 10):

Is this move the first domino to fall for Gulf Carriers entering alliances? EY to Skyteam next?
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
As long as everyone realizes the domino will miss EK. Skyteam already has MEA and Saudia. I'm not sure the attraction for EY... *A should court EY.   

Actually, only OW was really weak in the region as *A has TK. If 9W joins *A, it would nicely 'sandwich' the region. However, if EY's potential investment keeps QR out of *A (or the GoI), than it would be 'game on' for *A.

Nahh. I don't think that EY will feel pressured to go towards any alliance anytime soon. They're quite happy chilling where they are, forming partnerships and agreements with a multitude of different carriers. They would have to relinquish all of that if they were to move into an alliance, which I don't think they're too comfortable with. They'd rather be the center in their own universe.

EK is large and powerful enough to stand on its own rather than join an alliance.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Now, is anyone else waiting for AAB to blast OneWorld?   

Wait, wha?



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineHELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 21284 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 2):
What about AY... their OW Euro-Asian routes will have a new big competitor at OW.

I believe AY is pleased to get QR inside OW, keep your enemy close  
Quoting ojas (Reply 4):
DFW, LAX, SYD, HEL. All of which could possibly come online in the next few years.

HEL has been among their "further route launches" for quite some time, perhaps something materialize now. Or we'll only see code shares with AY...


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18681 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 20958 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Now, is anyone else waiting for AAB to blast OneWorld?

Or at least AA for their recent performance.   

He's actually smiling in that photo. I didn't think he had the "rizus" muscle!


User currently offlineDFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 20681 times:

Looks like I proved all those naysayers wrong when people pounced on my post a couple weeks ago saying they wouldn't join OneWorld. Ha


Christopher W Slovacek
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 100
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 20641 times:
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Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 18):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Now, is anyone else waiting for AAB to blast OneWorld?

Wait, wha?

Al Baker is NOTORIOUS for making negative comments (I shouldn't have used the American slang of 'blast') towards his vendors. So, why wouldn't he make bad comments on OW.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):

He's actually smiling in that photo. I didn't think he had the "rizus" muscle!

   Agreed.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 18):
I don't think that EY will feel pressured to go towards any alliance anytime soon.

Agreed. But there is a difference between 'pressure' and courted. I think EY will go on their own.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineCX282 From Germany, joined May 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 19972 times:

Funny that QR put Qantas first when mentioning their new oneworld partners on facebook...

User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 672 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 19925 times:

I said it on the other thread and ill say it again, this mess is getting crazy. So you have QR who does not like EK but EK code shares with QR's alliance partner QF. EY which doesn't like QR is partnered with QR's alliance partner AB which wants to partner with AF, who doesn't like AA/IAG. Not to mention CX or AY must not like the ME carriers. This is just getting way too interesting...

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 20746 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 24):
I said it on the other thread and ill say it again, this mess is getting crazy.



No argument there. OneWorld has the whole promiscuous, open marriage thing going on with its members. I suppose that can be a good and a bad thing.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1148 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20567 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 24):

I said it on the other thread and ill say it again, this mess is getting crazy. So you have QR who does not like EK but EK code shares with QR's alliance partner QF. EY which doesn't like QR is partnered with QR's alliance partner AB which wants to partner with AF, who doesn't like AA/IAG. Not to mention CX or AY must not like the ME carriers. This is just getting way too interesting...

The next step is for the world to implode...

I was hoping it would be EK in OW because of the QF partnership. Since QR is now OW, what will happen to said EK/OF tie-up? Could QF ditch OW and move to Star, and EK follow suit? Since Virgin Australia is in bed with DL, I could see them going to Skyteam if the time comes. QF is just a mess too me. And then the whole ET/AB/AF/KL thing. Is there going to be alliance hopping soon???



Я говорю по-русский. :)
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6335 posts, RR: 39
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20973 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 24):

Gives you a lot of choices... If you like travelling to the Middle East, it'd be wise to either get a QF FF and make the most of both EK and QR or an AB FF and use EY and QR with the possible added benefit of AF/KL... And somehow Srilankan and RJ are supposed to fit in there!



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineGCPET From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2012, 204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20884 times:

Good news for Oneworld! Nice to see the addition of a Middle-Eastern Airline. Does this mean Qatar will move from T4 to T3 at London Heathrow?

GCPET



If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4792 posts, RR: 25
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20892 times:
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Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 24):
I said it on the other thread and ill say it again, this mess is getting crazy.

The conspiracy theorist in me would argue that It's all part of the three Gulf carriers' overall scheme to undermine the three traditional alliances....and these traditional legacy carriers are lapping it up...walking straight into the trap....


User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20795 times:

Quoting GCPET (Reply 28):
Does this mean Qatar will move from T4 to T3 at London Heathrow?

After all the money they just invested in the new lounge in T4 I would seriously doubt it!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineRJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20660 times:

Wonder how this will affect Royal Jordanian!


Chance favors the prepared mind
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3696 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20668 times:
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Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 11):
Wonder if IAH would be in danger of losing QR, if they should decide to service DFW?

I think Emirates has shown a Middle East carrier can serve both successfully.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 17):
this is a premium heavy route averaging more than 22 pax in J class per flight year round.

Just by looking at the bags coming off the belt before customs, I can tell you there are quite a few passengers connecting to other cities in close vicinity to IAH (AUS, MSY, DFW, etc...). More than once I have recognized a few faces from the inbound flight on my connection to DFW.

If Qatar Airways and AA were to code-share on a DFW route, it is likely that these connecting passengers will move up the road. Whether or not that is enough shift to warrant downgauging IAH to a 787 or not, time will tell...

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 18):
However, it's rare that you hear of a Middle Eastern/Big Three carrier pulling out of a network route, so I don't expect this flight to be endangered.

Keep in mind that Qatar Airways' purpose is to serve the interests of its homeland above and beyond any commercial goal. With the Qatari government keen on being seen as a player in Middle East diplomacy (with some success), I think this is one route that is going to stay whether or not it is commercially justified.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2088 posts, RR: 15
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20500 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 24):

I said it on the other thread and ill say it again, this mess is getting crazy. So you have QR who does not like EK but EK code shares with QR's alliance partner QF. EY which doesn't like QR is partnered with QR's alliance partner AB which wants to partner with AF, who doesn't like AA/IAG. Not to mention CX or AY must not like the ME carriers. This is just getting way too interesting...

It is very complex. Put simply, global alliances started off as a marketing organization (FFPs, lounges, elite recognition) which then evolved into extensive, deep-rooted alignment (anti-trust immunity, revenue sharing and joint-venture agreements). Now, it has shifted to, "how do we integrate the Middle Eastern carriers into the picture" which has essentially become the next phase in and of itself.

Now, at the end of the day, OneWorld is the loosest federation of all of the big three global alliances, so theoretically this type of accommodation could be the best approach for all players involved. Oneworld is the smallest alliance and has missed the boat on expanding into key regions of high-volume importance (namely India, mainland China and Africa).

I do agree with you, however, that it will be challenging for key stakeholders in OW (namely QF, IAG, AA, and AB) to continue walking in this increasingly tightrope situation without causing major spillovers along the way. It will be very interesting to see how things unfold.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20331 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 24):
you have QR who does not like EK but EK code shares with QR's alliance partner QF. EY which doesn't like QR is partnered with QR's alliance partner AB which wants to partner with AF, who doesn't like AA/IAG. Not to mention CX or AY must not like the ME carriers. This is just getting way too interesting...

Sounds like a soap opera to me, with all the cross relationships 


User currently offlinedelta764 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20328 times:

Airlines of the gulf: Shaking up the skies. There is an interesting article about this at cnn.org.

User currently offlineMarkam From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20062 times:

Congratulations to *O and QR! My source will not get an A on this if only because of the four week delay with respect to the date I was quoted, but I think that a B+ is fair enough: Rumor: QR To Join Oneworld, September Announcement (by Markam Jul 13 2012 in Civil Aviation) 

User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 19572 times:

Quoting HELyes (Reply 19):
I believe AY is pleased to get QR inside OW, keep your enemy close

I still can't see any benefit for AY about QR joining OW.

Most of AY's Asian destinations (if not all) are covered now with QR, which at this stage has a much better brand awareness in Europe or the States. It is nothing comparable to the QF-EK partnership, where they somehow can "split" the flights if they want (since it involves 2 long-haul flights). The only remaining advantage for AY seems to be shorter flight distances from Europe, particularly to Japan.

Quoting RJAF (Reply 31):
Wonder how this will affect Royal Jordanian!

It seems to me that this QR-OW/EY-ST thing is just to fight the big guy in the room, Emirates. Both European (and South-Asian, look at SQ in Europe now) and QR/EY are scared of EK. So they surround Emirates. OW gets RJ, QR (and Sri Lankan), Star gets TK and MS (and ET) and Sky SV, MEA and Kenya.

RJ seemed to be in a limbo for a while, so I can't see how this is worse for them. Specially their little connectivity to Asia/India (BKK, DEL, HKG, KUL) which is QR's strength. RJ will still be the best connection point from Europe/NAmerica to the Levant or Egypt. They can easily "specialize" in niche markets that are not very well covered by QR for multiple reasons: Israel, Libya, Irak, Ukraine/Eastern Europe and some long-haul such as DTW.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 19423 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 29):
The conspiracy theorist in me would argue that It's all part of the three Gulf carriers' overall scheme to undermine the three traditional alliances....and these traditional legacy carriers are lapping it up...walking straight into the trap....

An alternative way of looking at it is that all of the three Middle Eastern airlines have realised they can't all go it alone and need partners to support their networks.

There is a lot of expense incurred in joining an alliance (IT changes, staff training, comms etc) and it is not done lightly without an assessment of the benefits for the member elect.

It is interesting to note that following today's announcement the only international airline I can think of that doesn't have either a membership of alliance or a joint business (beyond mere interlining/codesharing) is Virgin Atlantic.


User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 18789 times:

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 21):
Looks like I proved all those naysayers wrong when people pounced on my post a couple weeks ago saying they wouldn't join OneWorld. Ha

you even proved the CEO of QR wrong....

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ays-oneworld-idUSBRE88T06J20120930

sometimes a blank stare or a non-committal answer would be a lot better than looking like a bit of an idiot 8 days later...


User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 18439 times:

Quoting BD338 (Reply 39):

I concur. I never really thought about flying QR but when the CEO point blankly denies the rumor and further states "NO"' he does not look too good. It would have been better for him to state his airline was keeping all options open.



John@SFO
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18681 posts, RR: 58
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 18151 times:

Quoting BD338 (Reply 39):
sometimes a blank stare or a non-committal answer would be a lot better than looking like a bit of an idiot 8 days later...

Mr. AB's behavior suggests to me that he doesn't really care what anyone thinks of him. While I respect that on the one hand, you really should care what your colleagues (and especially your underlings) think of you.


User currently offlineBoeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 17366 times:

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 11):

I just can't imagine this route being canceled, I'm sure there are more than enough oil connections to leave the two open.

I'm sort of surprised this occurred, but at the same time I feel like it was over due. QR needed BA, and now BA needs QR for Australia.



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 17093 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 9):
I wonder if SYD will be a OW hub for much longer!

Why? Is Qantas going somewhere? I don't see why SYD would not be a hub still.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2309 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 16979 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 24):
this mess is getting crazy. So you have QR who does not like EK but EK code shares with QR's alliance partner QF.

It's not all that crazy. I can think of a similar situation where CX doesn't get along with HU, but HU codeshares with CX's alliance partner AA.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 16967 times:

Interesting times ahead at OW...

EK/QF tie up...

EY/AB tie up...

AB/AF/KL/EY tie up...

Now QR officially become a Oneworld member... I'm not sure as to the relationship between EK/QR...

On another thread I've read AA is presently in talks with EK so I wonder if QRs announcement will change anything...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 100
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16629 times:
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Quoting CX282 (Reply 23):
Not to mention CX

Who also doesn't like QF.  
Quoting EK413 (Reply 45):
I'm not sure as to the relationship between EK/QR...

Competitors. They both try to poach each others passengers/cargo.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 45):
On another thread I've read AA is presently in talks with EK

I wonder if those talks are still on. I'm curious. For AA and QF "play well together." But BA does not want to share with EK.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 44):
I can think of a similar situation where CX doesn't get along with HU, but HU codeshares with CX's alliance partner AA.

Yep... This isn't a business relationship, it is a soap opera.   

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16440 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 46):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 45):
I'm not sure as to the relationship between EK/QR...

Competitors. They both try to poach each others passengers/cargo.

Very well said... This makes me wonder if QF was aware QR was invited to join the OW alliance or QF just decided it was time to take a leap of faith and sleep with the enemy...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1481 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16094 times:

does this mean that QR wont serve LAX with their own metal, and instead will rely on their OW partners?

User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3197 posts, RR: 10
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15521 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 47):
Very well said... This makes me wonder if QF was aware QR was invited to join the OW alliance or QF just decided it was time to take a leap of faith and sleep with the enemy...

this is a very interesting point. I am not sure how membership works, but I know years ago before the merger KLM was very strongly cooperating with Malaysia for connections to Australia, new zealand and Indonesia, and at that point it seemed logical that MAS would join skyteam, however apparently the rumour going around at the time was that Air France kept on blocking MAS's entry.

Which makes me wonder if Oneworld has similar rules.. ie - all carriers must agree... or is some vote taken and if the majority agree the deal is done? If this is the case QF absolutely would have known but picked Emirates quite rightly anyway (the connectivity at the hub alone is good enough grounds to do this. It's like Picking Sinapore Air with its singapore hub over Kuala Lumpur or Jakarta's options, or say LHR over MAN or AMS but without the runway constraint issue).

If this didn't require the overall approval of all members, it makes me interested what current members see the future of oneworld as... and I'm guessing they are almost moving beyond it. For AA - EK makes more sense. It fits in and is ready far quicker to work with AA's "cornerstone" strategy. For QF EK is obvious. For BA however what does QA bring to the table? BA won't want to be sending anybody from LHR down to DOH. That would be detracting directly from its own flights, with the possible exception of its Australia flights. Is BA planning on starting flights from other UK cities to DOH? I believe they're all reasonably well served? A Passenger travelling MAN-DOH-Hong KONG is one less passenger travelling MAN-LHR-HKG. Ditto for India.


User currently offlineAusA380 From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15426 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 26):
Since Virgin Australia is in bed with DL, I could see them going to Skyteam if the time comes.

However, Virgin Australia has both Air New Zealand (*A) and Eithad (unaligned) on its share register with major alliances with both carriers, and a major alliance with Singapore Airlines (*A) in addition to the Delta JV (ST). So no obvious direction with alliances.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15084 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 47):
This makes me wonder if QF was aware QR was invited to join the OW alliance or QF just decided it was time to take a leap of faith and sleep with the enemy...

Of course they were aware, and I'd be willing to bet that they spent a long time looking at the viability of a QR tieup, and probably even had discussions with QR to explore the idea. At the end of the day though, QR is nothing compared to EK from Australia to Europe, and QF had to make the decision that was right for them.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4688 posts, RR: 4
Reply 52, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14803 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 51):
Of course they were aware, and I'd be willing to bet that they spent a long time looking at the viability of a QR tieup, and probably even had discussions with QR to explore the idea. At the end of the day though, QR is nothing compared to EK from Australia to Europe, and QF had to make the decision that was right for them.

Precisely. At the end of the day QR is small fry in this market compared to EK. So long as QFFF provides status credits on EK metal then I doubt a single frequent flyer would care about the nuances between QR being OW and EK not. It was more important to get a strong European partner than keep things nice and incestuous.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 53, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14782 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 51):

Certainly ain't going to argue your points, I totally agree QR ain't even a pimple on EKs rear end when it comes to comparing networks...
EK is the right fit for QF & many might think their decision was the wrong one I feel it was the right decision... I'm excited about their tie up 

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 2927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14556 times:

As I see it, great news for QF frequent flyers.

Being able to fly EK and QR and get points + lounge access is a win for QF FF's.

Although, personally as a *A flyer (predominantly), I was really hoping QR would join *A. But, I think LH is to blame for that.

I believe EY will join Sky, and *A will not have any Middle Eastern carriers (TK comes close, but not quite), as I can't see EK joining any of them.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlineaa1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3414 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14303 times:

All of these relationships are quite fickle.

Who's to say that in 2 or 3 years if QR integrates well into oneworld, that QF won't end it's partnership with EK and switch to QR. Or that in a few years QR will leave oneworld (we know how erratic AAB is) and that EK or EY won't join instead.

AA has terminated it's relationship with GOL in Brazil, I suppose expecting TAM to join.

QR will be a welcomed addition to oneworld both interms of quality and network.

Furthermore, oneworld seems to be a very flexible alliance. Reciprocity does not seem to be a requirement. For instance, QF can choose to feed it's EU pax through EK rather than AB, AY, BA or IB; this however doesn't preclude the aforementioned airlines from still flying to SYD, benefitting from a "partner's home turf" and offering pax QF's connections beyond SYD throughout OZ/ NZL.

Likewise, rather than connect its pax on CX through HKG, AA chooses to partner with HU. That doesn't mean though that CX can't benefit from its partner at JFK/ LAX/ ORD etc and allow CX's pax onward travel benefits on AA's network.

For the moment, this is how oneworld works. No cumpulsory reciprocity. It may not seem to be the most integrated approach, but it seems to work quite well for all parties.

Just my take on the situation.

AA1818



God is a Trini...
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 56, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14158 times:
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Quoting aa1818 (Reply 55):
AA has terminated it's relationship with GOL in Brazil, I suppose expecting TAM to join.

Nope. AA terminated its code-share agreement with GOL because of DL's agreement with GOL, (DL recently became a GOL shareholder). QR also code-shares with GOL in the Brazilian domestic market.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4688 posts, RR: 4
Reply 57, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14128 times:

Quoting aa1818 (Reply 55):
this however doesn't preclude the aforementioned airlines from still flying to SYD

More than that, it doesn't preclude those airlines from flying to QF's Asian ports and codesharing from there. For example AY have a fairly extensive code share agreement with QF which I'm 90% certain in unaffected by the EK decision.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10656 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 49):
For BA however what does QA bring to the table? BA won't want to be sending anybody from LHR down to DOH. That would be detracting directly from its own flights, with the possible exception of its Australia flights. Is BA planning on starting flights from other UK cities to DOH? I believe they're all reasonably well served? A Passenger travelling MAN-DOH-Hong KONG is one less passenger travelling MAN-LHR-HKG. Ditto for India.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em: BA knows that they can not grow further at LHR, and that any eastward growth will necessarily happen through the Gulf carriers. So, they choose to cooperate and at least participate in a part of that growth by linking up with QR.


User currently offlineairceo From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10618 times:

Ever since AAB hinted at alliance membership a while back people weighed up the option and the writing has been on the wall for some time. I personally blogged about it in July and numerous others have speculated about this too. Good to see it come together. http://airceo.com/?p=10966

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 21):
Looks like I proved all those naysayers wrong when people pounced on my post a couple weeks ago saying they wouldn't join OneWorld. Ha

Couple weeks ago? Pfft slow bus.  Quoting EK413 (Reply 53):
EK is the right fit for QF & many might think their decision was the wrong one I feel it was the right decision... I'm excited about their tie up

Though both carriers are better off now than they were I feel QF could have had more clout in a relationship with QR than it will likely enjoy with EK.

@airceo



blogger at airceo | reach me: @airceo or fly@airceo.com
User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 633 posts, RR: 4
Reply 60, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9781 times:

As a Oneworld Emerald, I am excited to hear about QR joining OW. With MH on the way in, this is another high quality addition to the OW family and an airline that has the potential to be a huge part of OW fliers' travel needs.

I am personally excited about this move as it MAY afford me the ability to travel to Africa and Asia on personal trips without having to pay BA's absurd fuel surcharges, and I hope for a non-stop flight from DOH to DFW.


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 61, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9246 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 24):
I said it on the other thread and ill say it again, this mess is getting crazy. So you have QR who does not like EK but EK code shares with QR's alliance partner QF. EY which doesn't like QR is partnered with QR's alliance partner AB which wants to partner with AF, who doesn't like AA/IAG. Not to mention CX or AY must not like the ME carriers. This is just getting way too interesting...

Not sure that "this mess" is necessarily a new development. Airline alliances are not marriages, and the notion that certain alliance members will have bi-lateral agreements with airlines outside of the alliance (but who compete with other alliance members in different regions of the world) has existed for years. And alliance members disliking one another? Look no further than SQ-TG on that one...and yet we don't hear how Star Alliance is falling apart in Asia discussed on a regular basis.

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 42):
I'm sort of surprised this occurred, but at the same time I feel like it was over due. QR needed BA, and now BA needs QR for Australia.

Does BA "need" QR for Australia? Just because the joint services agreement with QF has come to and end hasn't resulted in mass cancellation of code-shares within Australia on QF-operated flights. Frequent flier benefits remain in tact for BA Executive Club members. And surely BA could pursue relationships with other oneworld members to bulk-up traffic to Australia via HKG and, in time, KUL. Maybe QR was simply a good business alternative to that?

And who says that the gulf hubs are the best place to connect Europe --> Australia traffic? While routing isn't everything, the gulf hubs are relatively far off the great circle routing between London and Sydney and result in substantially longer flight distances (both for total distance and longest sector distance).

As far as geography is concerned, routing Australia over DOH is out of the way when compared to the great circle. The total routing is ~375 miles longer (not the biggest deal in the world, admittedly, when flying such a long distance anyway). Perhaps more importantly, the longest sector is ~925 miles longer than the longest sector on the existing LHR-SIN-SYD routing. Given what we hear about airlines suffering on extra long-haul services with the current price of fuel, this has to be an relatively important consideration. Perhaps that is just QR's problem, not BA's. Analysis below, for reference.

A perfect great circle routing LHR-SYD is 10,573 mi.

London-Sydney via Hong Kong
LHR - HKG = 5,994 mi
HKG - SYD = 4,581 mi
Total = 10,575 mi

London-Sydney via Singapore
LHR - SIN = 6,765 mi
SIN - SYD = 3,907 mi
Total = 10,672 mi

London-Sydney via Kuala Lumpur
LHR - KUL = 6,593 mi
KUL - SYD = 4,088 mi
Total = 10,681 mi

London-Sydney via Doha
LHR-DOH = 3,259 mi
DOH - SYD = 7,689 mi
Total = 10,948 mi

London-Sydney via Dubai
LHR - DXB = 3,421 mi
DXB - SYD = 7,481 mi
Total = 10,901 mi

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 54):
I believe EY will join Sky, and *A will not have any Middle Eastern carriers (TK comes close, but not quite), as I can't see EK joining any of them.
MS at CAI doesn't count as a Middle East carrier?

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 49):
For QF EK is obvious. For BA however what does QA bring to the table? BA won't want to be sending anybody from LHR down to DOH. That would be detracting directly from its own flights, with the possible exception of its Australia flights. Is BA planning on starting flights from other UK cities to DOH? I believe they're all reasonably well served? A Passenger travelling MAN-DOH-Hong KONG is one less passenger travelling MAN-LHR-HKG. Ditto for India.
Quoting r2rho (Reply 58):
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em: BA knows that they can not grow further at LHR, and that any eastward growth will necessarily happen through the Gulf carriers. So, they choose to cooperate and at least participate in a part of that growth by linking up with QR.

The lack of near-term hub capacity for BA at LHR has to be a factor in BA's support for QR joining oneworld. EK and others have been successful at poaching UK-originating traffic from secondary cities (e.g., MAN, NCL, BHX, GLA) and routing it over their gulf hubs. Prior to the acquistion of BD, BA had terminated services to several domestic destinations in pursuit of more valuable routes abroad. Since the acquisition, several destiations have been added back (e.g., LBA)...but as additional long-haul opportunities present themselves and additional long-haul aircraft are acquired, expect a reduction once again in domestic connections. While BA may dislike losing market share for connections over its LHR hub, that has always been inevitable so long as hub capacity remained severely constrained.

Additionally, IAG's European hubs at LHR and MAD must have trouble competing for Europe-originating connecting traffic to Asia. Unless one is originating in Western Spain, Portugal, or Ireland, the hubs require backtracking and compete with a myriad number of options that are along the way. The risk of gulf carriers "overflying" LHR/MAD for Europe-originating traffic has to be substantially less than it would be for, say, LH at FRA. Perhaps this is why IAG has been much less aggressive publicly about the risk that gulf carrier expansion poses to its business?

[Edited 2012-10-09 06:55:20]

[Edited 2012-10-09 07:21:24]

User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 2927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8700 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 61):
MS at CAI doesn't count as a Middle East carrier?

Again, they seem to compete for a different market.

EY/QR/EK are mainly going for transit passengers and creating a transit hub for the whole world. MS doesn't really have a good network going east from CAI and cannot be compared.

True Egypt is part of middle east (but the same definition fits Turkey).

TK has a much more similar network to EY/EK/QR than MS, but also fall short in Asia. They have some of the bigger destinations, but are missing many, as well as the frequencies (and of course Australia/New Zealand) that the "big 3" cover.

So, as I said, it would seem fitting that one of each EY/QR/EK go to each there alliance (like what seems to be happening to legacies in US), but at the end *A will be left out in the dark, due to EK not wanting an alliance.

*A best chance is for TK to grow, add frequencies and destinations, but their 2 big problems are IST (new airport will solve this), but more importantly the longer flights towards Asia. Some destinations (for instance Australia) will stretch their planes to the limit (if they can get there at all), and as we all know, the longer routes become very expensive due to the extra fuel burned just to carry the extra fuel. They do how ever have an advantage for flights to Europe, as they can use smaller planes (which would struggle with range from DOH/AUH/DXB), which means more destinations that are just too small for widebodies (even for EK).

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 100
Reply 63, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8537 times:
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Quoting EK413 (Reply 47):
This makes me wonder if QF was aware QR was invited to join the OW alliance or QF just decided it was time to take a leap of faith and sleep with the enemy...

QF wanted the best connections. EK is a far larger airline than QR today.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 54):
As I see it, great news for QF frequent flyers.

Being able to fly EK and QR and get points + lounge access is a win for QF FF's.

Yes it is. They will have huge flexibility.


Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 64, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8039 times:

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 62):
*A best chance is for TK to grow, add frequencies and destinations, but their 2 big problems are IST (new airport will solve this), but more importantly the longer flights towards Asia. Some destinations (for instance Australia) will stretch their planes to the limit (if they can get there at all), and as we all know, the longer routes become very expensive due to the extra fuel burned just to carry the extra fuel. They do how ever have an advantage for flights to Europe, as they can use smaller planes (which would struggle with range from DOH/AUH/DXB), which means more destinations that are just too small for widebodies (even for EK).

I would generally agree with these points, although it is worth mentioning that both IST and CAI are much bigger local markets and ones with a lot of future potential for sustained growth than either AUH or DOH. Therefore, both TK and MS do not have to be as reliant on riskier transfer traffic as the other gulf carriers, which should help the sustainability of both airlines over the longer term. Other Star Alliance carriers, therefore, should benefit from additional passengers and customers in those markets that are loyal to the alliance and are more likely to connect to onward destinations on Star Alliance carriers in Europe and Asia.


User currently offlineJambrain From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7031 times:

What does this deal mean for BA? Will they start to use their European Common Aviation Area rights to fly multi-leg routes and improve their sales catchment area?

e.g. could one plane do

LHR - FRA - DOH - LHR
Total: 10492 km 12 hours in air

or
LHR - DOH - MAN - FRA - LHR
Total 12148 km or 14 hours in air

Otherwise I can't see how this helps BA to grow outside of it's LHR fortress, doesn't it drive much more traffic to QR then BA receives in return?

I guess it's just a defensive move to counter EK with their cost base advantage.



Jambrain
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 66, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6201 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 61):
routing Australia over DOH is out of the way when compared to the great circle. The total routing is ~375 miles longer (not the biggest deal in the world, admittedly, when flying such a long distance anyway). Perhaps more importantly, the longest sector is ~925 miles longer than the longest sector on the existing LHR-SIN-SYD routing. Given what we hear about airlines suffering on extra long-haul services with the current price of fuel, this has to be an relatively important consideration. Perhaps that is just QR's problem, not BA's.

Indeed, if you look at your analysis, it is almost flipping around the ratio. Now BA would fly the shorter sector, giving off the longer one to QR. And AUH-SYD is still "only" 6500nm great-circle, so not ULH and definitely within profitable operating range with current aircraft, more so for a Gulf airline with lower cost base.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 61):
IAG's European hubs at LHR and MAD must have trouble competing for Europe-originating connecting traffic to Asia.

...and the "natural" OW option would in theory have been AY via HEL, but my impression is that this has not been promoted enough, and that OW loses too many EU-Asia pax to AF-KL/CDG/AMS and LH/FRA/MUC (apart from the Gulf carriers of course).

Quoting Jambrain (Reply 65):
I guess it's just a defensive move

It probably won't help BA to grow but at least it'll stop the bleeding, by having BA participate in the Gulf hub growth through a partner (QR) rather than compete (and lose) against it.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 67, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6084 times:

Quoting Jambrain (Reply 65):
Otherwise I can't see how this helps BA to grow outside of it's LHR fortress, doesn't it drive much more traffic to QR then BA receives in return?

I guess it's just a defensive move to counter EK with their cost base advantage.

Not necessarily. Perhaps QR and EY have realised they can't go it alone and need the traffic of alliance partners to support their networks. As already said, joining an alliance is a huge investment and QR wouldn't do this if it didn't need to.

BA and other partners benefit from having broader worldwide networks and offering their frequent flyers more choice. VS now looks even more isolated compared to BA's network of partners. I would not rule out an announcement about a joint revenue sharing business with IAG- do not underestimate the potential value of BA's corporate customer and frequent flyer base in London to QR.

[Edited 2012-10-10 07:11:14]

User currently onlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3073 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5960 times:

I wonder if they'll be on the move back to Terminal 3 at Heathrow, they've just got their new T4 lounge looking good as well.

User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4599 posts, RR: 24
Reply 69, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5865 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 33):
Now, at the end of the day, OneWorld is the loosest federation of all of the big three global alliances, so theoretically this type of accommodation could be the best approach for all players involved

It clearly is the best approach.

They are the smallest alliance and as such, they don't have 20 other also-ran airlines as part of the alliance that they can throw passengers at.

To quote the oneworld press release on Qatar -

The CEO Bruce Ashby said - "oneworld's flexible approach to bilateral cooperation with carriers outside our alliance means that links already established between our member airlines with other carriers from this region may continue in tandem with Qatar Airways' addition to oneworld, further strengthening the choice and convenience we collectively offer our customers."

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 33):
Oneworld is the smallest alliance and has missed the boat on expanding into key regions of high-volume importance (namely India, mainland China and Africa).

oneworld is not looking for "high-volume". They have always chased the high-yield international business traveller, and passengers looking for a high quality service.

Again from the press release -

Willie Walsh of IAG said - "Its fine reputation for customer service mirrors oneworld's own focus."

Tom Horton of AA said - "Quality has always been the hallmark of oneworld, so we are pleased to welcome to our alliance another of the world's highest quality airlines."

"oneworld aims to be the first choice airline alliance for the world's frequent international travellers."

"oneworld also offers more alliance fares than any of its competitors."

"oneworld is current holder of three leading international awards for airline alliances"

You will also note that the press release does state - "India's Kingfisher Airlines is also a member elect." - so one assumes if they survive they will still become part of oneworld.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 33):
I do agree with you, however, that it will be challenging for key stakeholders in OW (namely QF, IAG, AA, and AB) to continue walking in this increasingly tightrope situation without causing major spillovers along the way. It will be very interesting to see how things unfold.

What tightrope situation? Frequent flyers will chase their status and miles - and with the QF situation with EK, you will earn the same miles and status whether you're flying with EK or other oneworld carriers. I imagine it would be similar with Etihad and Air Berlin and so on.

At the end of the day the passenger has more choice.

Oh, incidentally, everyone forgets that oneworld has the only Australian member of any alliance, and Australia is one of the richer countries in the world with a high proportion of the population that travels. That is a major benefit to the alliance right there. You could also argue the South American dominance with LAN (they were the only alliance with a South American member for years) which could be moreso with LAN.

Oneworld know what they are doing, the market they're targeting, and they're clearly very successful at what they set out to do, despite the naysayers who think every alliance must cover the entire globe, no matter what the airline is like quality wise. I know whenever I fly on a oneworld airline, I expect and usually get a certain level of service. I have just come back from 3 flights in domestic First on American and the crews on board were very good to brilliant on all sectors - and that's an airline considered so-so in the service stakes on here!



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2088 posts, RR: 15
Reply 70, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5592 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 69):
oneworld is not looking for "high-volume". They have always chased the high-yield international business traveller, and passengers looking for a high quality service.

That doesn't underplay the importance of maintaining a presence in certain countries and key regions of growth. You can have all the high-yielding traffic you want, but if you're unable to take them to places where they want to go, there's not much you can do.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 69):
Tom Horton of AA said - "Quality has always been the hallmark of oneworld, so we are pleased to welcome to our alliance another of the world's highest quality airlines."

A lot of people might find that debatable. OneWorld has not seen the brightest of days in recent years. Two of their members are now defunct (Mexicana and Malev), one is nearing its one year mark in Chapter 11 (AA) without any sign of near recovery, three are in pretty dire financial straights (Qantas, Iberia and airberlin) and the rest are kind of all hanging in there, maybe with Cathay being the exception, and more recently JAL.

Not that I'm trying to bash OneWorld, but I just think it's bold for Horton to spin the whole "quality" wheel (SOP) when his own empire is practically crumbling beneath his feet.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 69):
Oh, incidentally, everyone forgets that oneworld has the only Australian member of any alliance, and Australia is one of the richer countries in the world with a high proportion of the population that travels. That is a major benefit to the alliance right there. You could also argue the South American dominance with LAN (they were the only alliance with a South American member for years) which could be moreso with LAN.

No one undervalues the contribution that Qantas/Australia brings to a global network, but it's no major power player. The same argument can be applied to Air Canada/Canada. Sure, there are a lot of people who stimulate the travel and tourism market, but it's still proportionally small compared to the YoY boom occurring in other major regions of the world.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineHELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5452 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 66):
...and the "natural" OW option would in theory have been AY via HEL, but my impression is that this has not been promoted enough

It looks AY promote more in Asia than in Europe these days, Asian passengers are becoming more and more important for them. Their latest figures show +10% growth from 2011.
More OW action coming to HEL in February when JL start NRT-HEL (787) co operating with AY.


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8434 posts, RR: 9
Reply 72, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5153 times:

Quoting aa1818 (Reply 55):
Who's to say that in 2 or 3 years if QR integrates well into oneworld, that QF won't end it's partnership with EK and switch to QR. Or that in a few years QR will leave oneworld (we know how erratic AAB is) and that EK or EY won't join instead.

It's a 10 year agreement.


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4599 posts, RR: 24
Reply 73, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4839 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 70):
That doesn't underplay the importance of maintaining a presence in certain countries and key regions of growth.

No, it doesn't - however your argument seems to negate the fact that the oneworld carriers do serve Africa and India and so on. While they don't have a player in those markets, many cities are served in the markets. It's not like they're blank spots with no service - and the service is to major cities in the respective markets.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 70):
three are in pretty dire financial straights (Qantas, Iberia and airberlin) and the rest are kind of all hanging in there, maybe with Cathay being the exception, and more recently JAL.

Qantas is not in dire financial straights at all. If you look at the numbers, the expectation is for a major profit next year, and increasing otherwise. Every part of Qantas is profitable except international and it's been like that for years - hence the changes. I will agree on Iberia and airberlin though!

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 70):
No one undervalues the contribution that Qantas/Australia brings to a global network, but it's no major power player. The same argument can be applied to Air Canada/Canada. Sure, there are a lot of people who stimulate the travel and tourism market, but it's still proportionally small compared to the YoY boom occurring in other major regions of the world.

Agreed with Canada. Interesting times ahead though!



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineairdfw From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4806 times:

Quoting HELyes (Reply 71):
It looks AY promote more in Asia than in Europe these days, Asian passengers are becoming more and more important for them. Their latest figures show +10% growth from 2011.
More OW action coming to HEL in February when JL start NRT-HEL (787) co operating with AY.

Well I would rather have AY fly to both BOM and DFW than have QR fly to DFW as the prospect of going to "HEL"L is better with nice break in between with an airport everybody is raving about. mmm... Can dream at least.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2088 posts, RR: 15
Reply 75, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4795 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 73):
No, it doesn't - however your argument seems to negate the fact that the oneworld carriers do serve Africa and India and so on. While they don't have a player in those markets, many cities are served in the markets. It's not like they're blank spots with no service - and the service is to major cities in the respective markets.

Just for kicks, I pulled some capacity share data for the week of 08OCT12 to 14OCT12, according to CAPA:

Africa

Unaligned: 43.0%
Star: 27.8%
SkyTeam: 11.6%

LCC: 9.9%
Oneworld: 5.4%
Oneworld affiliate: 2.4%


China

SkyTeam: 37.9%
Other: 37.5%
Star: 16.1%
LCC: 5.9%
Oneworld affiliate: 1.6%
Oneworld: 1.0%


India

Other: 46.6%
LCC: 44.5%
Star: 4.6%
SkyTeam: 2.3%
Oneworld: 1.9%
Oneworld affiliate: 0.2%


So I guess the numbers show a lot more fragmentation for India, a little less so for Africa, but in China, Oneworld definitely seems to be at somewhat of a disadvantage.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 73):
Qantas is not in dire financial straights at all. If you look at the numbers, the expectation is for a major profit next year, and increasing otherwise. Every part of Qantas is profitable except international and it's been like that for years - hence the changes. I will agree on Iberia and airberlin though!

I don't know where you got this info from. Alan Joyce himself, at least according to my sources (Bloomberg, etc) has said that he hopes the EK partnership will help Qantas' international unit break even by 2015. That is a very different picture from being "profitable in 2013."

I'm going to play the "expectations vs. reality" card here. I sincerely hope for QF that their revitalization plans gain traction and improve their bottom line, but you can't place all of your eggs into that basket until you have some sort of credible proof that their international ops are indeed showing stronger numbers.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 76, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4721 times:

Quoting airdfw (Reply 74):
Well I would rather have AY fly to both BOM and DFW than have QR fly to DFW as the prospect of going to "HEL"L is better with nice break in between with an airport everybody is raving about. mmm... Can dream at least.

AY at DFW would be my ultimate dream come true. If I could have any international route in the world come, it would be DFW-HEL.

That said, it will never happen.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 77, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4666 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 70):
Qantas

QF has close to $4bn cash sat in the bank. They are probably the most financial secure of all OW airlines...


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4688 posts, RR: 4
Reply 78, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4592 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 75):
has said that he hopes the EK partnership will help Qantas' international unit break even by 2015.

Re read your own point: INTERNATIONAL FLYING should break even by 2015. That is totally different from QantasGroup making a profit next year, which is highly possible.

Qantas domestic flying is still a gold mine despite advances by VA (there's room for 2), JetStar is still going gangbusters, and Qantas Frequent Flyer is the unsung hero of the group. Every part of the group is profitable apart from international operations.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 75):
I sincerely hope for QF that their revitalization plans gain traction and improve their bottom line, but you can't place all of your eggs into that basket until you have some sort of credible proof that their international ops are indeed showing stronger numbers.

USA is holding firm and turning profits (it's still QF's strongest international market) and the re-focussed Asia operation should allow them to finally make inroads on that continent. Those two markets are where the money is at with regards to international flying from Australia.

QF will probably always loose money to Europe as a standalone carrier. By palming off that market to someone else they are removing a massive liability from their books. Smart move IMHO.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 77):
They are probably the most financial secure of all OW airlines...

Other than maybe CX I'm inclined to agree. The airline is a million miles from going bust, just AJ managed to make everyone think it was about to so that he could reorganise the business. Very shrewed approach, but QF will be better for it long term.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2088 posts, RR: 15
Reply 79, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4556 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 78):
Re read your own point: INTERNATIONAL FLYING should break even by 2015. That is totally different from QantasGroup making a profit next year, which is highly possible.

My apologies. I thought they were focusing on the international sector only.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4688 posts, RR: 4
Reply 80, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4532 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 79):
My apologies

No worries. I'm sorry if I come off as a bit brisk by capitalising "international flying", that wasn't my intention and italics would have been better.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineHELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4519 times:

Quoting airdfw (Reply 74):
Well I would rather have AY fly to both BOM and DFW than have QR fly to DFW as the prospect of going to "HEL"L is better with nice break in between with an airport everybody is raving about. mmm... Can dream at least.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 76):
AY at DFW would be my ultimate dream come true. If I could have any international route in the world come, it would be DFW-HEL.

That said, it will never happen.

Would be so cool if AY had more routes to N America, like they used to have. But I'm afraid they are too small to take risks in America, they need to keep their Asia service on tracks. A few years back the perfect Great Circle route JFK-HEL-BOM was almost there, but BOM got axed before the timetables were fixed to work right.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 100
Reply 82, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4487 times:
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Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 78):
QF will probably always loose money to Europe as a standalone carrier. By palming off that market to someone else they are removing a massive liability from their books. Smart move IMHO.

Agreed.

I wonder how much of the 'last leg' to Australia BA will cede to partners, including QR? To make money on those routes, due to the amazing amount of competition: QF, EK, QR, CX, VA, EY/VA, MH, SQ, TK, AI?, and ??. (I'm sure I missed a few airlines in competition.)

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6335 posts, RR: 39
Reply 83, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4479 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 82):
I wonder how much of the 'last leg' to Australia BA will cede to partners, including QR? To make money on those routes, due to the amazing amount of competition: QF, EK, QR, CX, VA, EY/VA, MH, SQ, TK, AI?, and ??. (I'm sure I missed a few airlines in competition.)

Well if they're going to send the A380 to HKG, you'd have to ask the question: would they be able to fill it if it weren't for passengers connecting from there to go further? CX get it to work both ways with the similar timing and therefore they'd slot in perfectly with the connecting traffic. Because I personally believe they won't maintain the SYD leg for too much longer when there are more efficient ways to do it via partners.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 84, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 78):
Other than maybe CX I'm inclined to agree.

I agree.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 82):
(I'm sure I missed a few airlines in competition.)

'A few'... About 50!  
Quoting NZ107 (Reply 83):
Well if they're going to send the A380 to HKG, you'd have to ask the question: would they be able to fill it if it weren't for passengers connecting from there to go further?

They'll likely drop the additional 3 weekly BA21/22 flight when they start the A380. That will help adjust capacity, as will their ability to switch the other daily flight between 747's, 77W's and 77E's according to demand.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4688 posts, RR: 4
Reply 85, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 83):
Well if they're going to send the A380 to HKG, you'd have to ask the question: would they be able to fill it if it weren't for passengers connecting from there to go further?

I doubt they will have any problem at all, I believe the loads on those flights are consistently full.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 84):
They'll likely drop the additional 3 weekly BA21/22 flight when they start the A380

They've already announced the termination of that flight. TBH the times simply weren't great for HKG O&D traffic so once they lost the Aus feed those times weren't really of any use to anyone.


Given that the 747 and A380 have the same operating costs as each other yet one seats 100 pax more (according to QF) then I don't see why BA would not be able to upgrade HKG. I honestly don't doubt that they could fill those seats with an evening (rather than morning) departure.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 86, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

How can an Airline Alliance offer such inconsistent level of service across its network? Cause having AA and QR in the same alliance is quite stunning, knowing that AA's business class is more comparable to QR's economy class in terms of quality of service... Do you think that QR might loose its excellence in service as a result of this?

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 100
Reply 87, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3530 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 83):
Well if they're going to send the A380 to HKG, you'd have to ask the question: would they be able to fill it if it weren't for passengers connecting from there to go further?

Naturally there will be connections. That part won't change. What will is whose metal goes on to Australia.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 83):
Because I personally believe they won't maintain the SYD leg for too much longer when there are more efficient ways to do it via partners.

Agreed.

The aviation landscape is changing.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 88, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3512 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 86):
How can an Airline Alliance offer such inconsistent level of service across its network? Cause having AA and QR in the same alliance is quite stunning, knowing that AA's business class is more comparable to QR's economy class in terms of quality of service... Do you think that QR might loose its excellence in service as a result of this?

Yes, exactly!!!

Didnt you hear that now Delta and Aerolineas Argentinas are exactly the same quality. The day after AR got in SkyTeam, Delta's service went down the tubes. Now the Government has to let Delta pay no taxes for a year or cease to exist.

Oh wait, that didnt happen.  

Alliances are big and you have some airlines that are better than others. Do you think United and Sinagpore/Thai are on the same level of service? How about KLM and Tarom? Cathay and American?



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