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Delta Applies For SEA-PVG  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25077 posts, RR: 46
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8660 times:

Follow on to the now very long thread about the announcement in Seattle yesterday, ( Alaska And Delta Have Big Announcement In SEA Mon (by BlueBus Oct 4 2012 in Civil Aviation) ) Delta today applied with the DOT for authority to commence service between Seattle Washington and Shanghai China.

DL proposes to offer daily summer service using 767-300 aircraft effective June 17, 2013. Off season frequency will vary between 4 - 5 weekly, dependent on demand.

Proposed schedule:

SEA-PVG 1445-1820 B763
PVG-SEA 1220-0835 B763

There exist a large pool of unallocated frequencies to China already, so DL will have no difficulty obtaining the authority from the US end.


OST-2012-TBA


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9595 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8451 times:

It amazes me that DL can operate the 767 on a 5,000nm route like SEA-PVG. However it is the right size of airplane to do it and according to its specs it can do it. This is the type of route that the 787 was designed for.

The ground time in PVG is quite long, but it allows for convenient connections. NRT is going to a 747-400 about the same time, and SEA-HND has been requested, so DL is growing SEA.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25077 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8361 times:

Yes I think its interesting the shift that Delta continues to move ever more smaller 767s into the Pacific.

From I recall, SFO-NRT, PDX-NRT, SEA-PEK, SEA-KIX, plus some Hawaii-Japan use 763 at the moment.

I think what it basically says are these markets require as smallest aircraft possible and the 763 is what DL has.

The larger ex NW A330s seem to have found their niche in running growing number of Europe flights now instead.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineB777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8343 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
The larger ex NW A330s seem to have found their niche in running growing number of Europe flights now instead

Seems to be mainly to AMS and CDG and Africa


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17428 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8341 times:

Makes sense, although I still find it hard to believe they can't operate SEAChina daily year round.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4895 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8227 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Yes I think its interesting the shift that Delta continues to move ever more smaller 767s into the Pacific.

From I recall, SFO-NRT, PDX-NRT, SEA-PEK, SEA-KIX, plus some Hawaii-Japan use 763 at the moment.

I think what it basically says are these markets require as smallest aircraft possible and the 763 is what DL has.

The markets you listed above are (and have pretty much always been) rather thin ones, (SFO-NRT may not be as thin, but it is for DL since it's really UA territory here). NW didn't have any smaller gauge than the A332, hence it was forced to use the A332 on SFO-NRT, for example. And IIRC, SEA-PEK was one of those routes that NW had targeted for the 787...
On the other hand, DL's largest aircraft, the 744, is used almost exclusively in the Pacific, except for JFK-TLV....

Quoting B777ER (Reply 3):
Seems to be mainly to AMS and CDG and Africa

Mostly AMS, and a few to CDG. Africa will not see any A330s this winter since ATL-LOS has now moved to the 76T. South America will take its place with ATL-EZE and ATL-LIM both going A332 this winter.


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8043 times:

Very good to see. If the route is awarded, I hope to see the DL and MU codeshare expanded out of SEA. I believe below are all the routes MU codeshares with DL out of PVG, but will DL have access to the codeshare flights from a SEA flight?


Shanghai Routes Operated by China Eastern

Beijing, China (PEK)
Guangzhou, China (CAN)
Fuzhou, China (FOC)
Shenyang, China (SHE)
Chengdu, China (CTU)
Qingdao, China (TAO)
Dalian, China (DLC)
Xiamen, China (XMN)
Kunming, China (KMG)
Xian, China (XIY)
Nanjing, China (NKG)
Chongqing, China (CKG)
Wenzhou, China (WNZ)
Harbin, China (HRB)
Shenzhen, China (SZX)
Changchun, China (CGQ)
Nanchang, China (KHN)
Hefei, China (HFE)
Haikou, China (HAK)
Changsha, China (CSX)
Wuhan, China (WUH)

Regards,

Team



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8041 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
This is the type of route that the 787 was designed for.

Yes, but this is what was in DL's mind as they upgraded 763 winglet with new interiors and deferred the 788 (?). A 788 might burn less fuel, but only a few percent less IIRC. The 763 they already had can perform adequately for now.


User currently offlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 984 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8000 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 6):
Very good to see. If the route is awarded, I hope to see the DL and MU codeshare expanded out of SEA. I believe below are all the routes MU codeshares with DL out of PVG, but will DL have access to the codeshare flights from a SEA flight?

I imagine that DL would try for as much Codeshare traffic as possible. The SEA-PEK flight is codeshare with China Southern and China Eastern both, isn't it?


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4895 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7975 times:
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Quoting Prost (Reply 8):
The SEA-PEK flight is codeshare with China Southern and China Eastern both, isn't it?

No, just China Southern (CZ). CZ has both CAN (primary) and PEK as hubs, whereas China Eastern (MU) has PVG. But of course convenient onward connections in PEK are non-existent for the SEA-PEK flight due to the very late arrival time in PEK...


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9595 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7799 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Makes sense, although I still find it hard to believe they can't operate SEAChina daily year round.

SEA is a very soft market during the winter. It is one of the more seasonal destinations in the summer. With increasing tourism, SEA is a gateway for many in the summer. In the winter, there is still demand, and there are strong business ties between SEA and Asia.

Over the years, other than NRT, SEA has rarely sustained daily service on its international routes to Asia. Korean Air, Asiana, Eva, and Delta have all dropped frequency in the winter.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6464 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7768 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
It amazes me that DL can operate the 767 on a 5,000nm route like SEA-PVG
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
This is the type of route that the 787 was designed for.

Don't those two remarks seem to contradict each other.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3052 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7711 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 11):
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
It amazes me that DL can operate the 767 on a 5,000nm route like SEA-PVG
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
This is the type of route that the 787 was designed for.

Don't those two remarks seem to contradict each other.

Why? So it amazes her that the 767 can support a route of that length, and it's a route that the 787 was designed for. I'm guessing you misread it and thought she said 767, not 787, in the second sentence.


User currently offlineCessna172RG From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7559 times:

SEA-NRT is United's territory? From what I recall, Northwest was the one that started the route years ago...and until the early 2000s, that route used to be served by a 747-200. Now that it's going back to a 747, and United is keeping their 777 (as far as I can tell), and now that ANA's in the picture with a 787, the plane with the more seat capacity is the Delta one...and with the codeshare advantages of Alaska (just like what Northwest had), the "touchdown" goes to Delta/Northwest (and that's not from a replacement referee, either...lol).


Save the whales...for dinner!!!
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7534 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 6):
Very good to see. If the route is awarded, I hope to see the DL and MU codeshare expanded out of SEA. I believe below are all the routes MU codeshares with DL out of PVG, but will DL have access to the codeshare flights from a SEA flight?


Shanghai Routes Operated by China Eastern

Beijing, China (PEK)
Guangzhou, China (CAN)
Fuzhou, China (FOC)
Shenyang, China (SHE)
Chengdu, China (CTU)
Qingdao, China (TAO)
Dalian, China (DLC)
Xiamen, China (XMN)
Kunming, China (KMG)
Xian, China (XIY)
Nanjing, China (NKG)
Chongqing, China (CKG)
Wenzhou, China (WNZ)
Harbin, China (HRB)
Shenzhen, China (SZX)
Changchun, China (CGQ)
Nanchang, China (KHN)
Hefei, China (HFE)
Haikou, China (HAK)
Changsha, China (CSX)
Wuhan, China (WUH)

Regards,

Team

I don't know whether the routes you give is from PVG or SHA because Shanghai has 2 airports! This is a huge disadvantage for international transfer passengers in PVG!

I am so sorry but I think the SEA-PVG is not a good idea again   The O&D demand for this line is really seasonal and PVG is not a good hub for domestic transfer in China. Although MU has a hub in PVG , its service is quite limited. MU is really focusing on SHA now. Given the proposed schedule, I can only find one good connection from PVG-PEK which is MU 5186 on 2125 and one Guangzhou connection of MU 5315 on 2115. The MU domestic frequency is a shame in PVG.

For your information, here is MU domestic frequency in the two airports in Shanghai:

SHA-PEK 21xDaily 16x333, 4x767, 1x320
SHA-CAN 10xDaily 2xAB6, 1x767, 7x320 or 737
SHA-SZX 12xDaily 12xAB6

PVG-PEK 5xDaily 1x333, 4x320
PVG-CAN 3xDaily 3x320
PVG-SZX 6xDaily 6x320

[Edited 2012-10-09 12:40:07]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25077 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7427 times:

Quoting justinlee (Reply 14):
PVG is not a good hub for domestic transfer in China.

  

I doubt any DL PVG customers would be looking to make the ground connection to SHA to catch a domestic China flight.

Frankly, neither DL service to China from SEA is beneficial to internal connections.
The SEA-PEK flight gets in almost at midnight!



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineB2468 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7301 times:

Quoting justinlee (Reply 14):
PVG is not a good hub for domestic transfer in China.

We'll have to see if the Shanghai Government moves ahead with any further plans to improve transportation between PVG and SHA. My wife (a Shanghainese) insists that the government wanted to extend the maglev all the way from PVG to SHA, although I don't remember this, and anyway that idea is dead in the water...the maglev isn't going anywhere (yup, they got NIMBYs in the PRC, too!).

Airport Bus Line #1 shuttles between PVG and SHA all day, but can be very slow in traffic. Metro Line #2 operates from PVG at its eastern terminus to SHA terminals 1 and 2 near the western terminus, but can be a pain if you have luggage, and it requires a change of gauge at Guanglan Road.

SHA has been integrated very well with the Hongqiao Railway Station, a key station in the HSR network, opening up even more of China to folks flying into SHA; it'd be nice if PVG could get in on that action, and China can do some amazing stuff with its infrastructure.

I think the only international routes out of SHA are to Korea, Japan, and HK, but could DL apply for authority to operate SEA-SHA? I would definitely choose that flight if the prices weren't too unreasonable, since SHA is always a better choice than PVG...so much more convenient to the city.

SHA: Always a good decision.



Dash-8/ERJ/306/310/319/320/332/333/343/346/388/72S/731/732/733/734/73G/738/741/744/74E/752/762/763/77E/77W/DC9/D1C/M82
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9595 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7294 times:

Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 13):
SEA-NRT is United's territory? From what I recall, Northwest was the one that started the route years ago...and until the early 2000s, that route used to be served by a 747-200. Now that it's going back to a 747, and United is keeping their 777 (as far as I can tell), and now that ANA's in the picture with a 787, the plane with the more seat capacity is the Delta one...and with the codeshare advantages of Alaska (just like what Northwest had), the "touchdown" goes to Delta/Northwest (and that's not from a replacement referee, either...lol).

Delta/Northwest has had the capacity lead on the route for years based on economy loads. However with ANA and UA offering fully flat seats against DL’s old seats on the A330s, I’m not surprised to see an upgrade to the 747s with the flat product. Until the A330s get new seats, they are not going to be as attractive to the business traffic.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 795 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7233 times:

Quoting justinlee (Reply 14):
I am so sorry but I think the SEA-PVG is not a good idea again   The O&D demand for this line is really seasonal and PVG is not a good hub for domestic transfer in China. Although MU has a hub in PVG , its service is quite limited. MU is really focusing on SHA now. Given the proposed schedule, I can only find one good connection from PVG-PEK which is MU 5186 on 2125 and one Guangzhou connection of MU 5315 on 2115. The MU domestic frequency is a shame in PVG.

Did you check the flights out of the same PVG that I checked? I found plenty of China Eastern connections at PVG for domestic flights, and not just to PEK and CAN, all the airports listed above have flights to Pudong and most have connections that would fit with the proposed schedules. Let's not forget that MU has to feed it's own international network out of PVG so it would make little sense for them to operate a fully split hub. There's plenty of demand in Shanghai to feed domestic only flights out of SHA as well.

There seems to be a pretty substantial domestic departure bank out of PVG around 9pm, I found flights to places like Hefei, Chengdu, Nanjing, Chongqing, Dalian, Xian, Tianjin, Harbin, and Xiamen, among others. So the only thing left to see is if China approves DL's proposed times.

[Edited 2012-10-09 14:36:58]

[Edited 2012-10-09 14:40:43]

User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6324 times:

Quoting SR117 (Reply 18):


Sorry for the misunderstanding, I know there is a departure bank around 9 pm. I just mean that it's not a good choice for DL. The proposed arrival time is 1820 so there is only one available connection left for most of the transfer PAX. This is not a good option because if there's a delay or something, transfer passengers have to stay overnight. I think DL are just too optimistic about its SEA network but that's what they can do with 767 or 330.


User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6282 times:

Quoting B2468 (Reply 16):

The maglev train to connect SHA and PVG is a myth! How can you build a maglev track through the expensive and fully packed Shanghai City Center? By the way, there are always NIMBYs, the only difference is whether they can be heard or not  


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6272 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
I doubt any DL PVG customers would be looking to make the ground connection to SHA to catch a domestic China flight.

I've made the ground connection several times before. The bus takes about about an hour (and it's small, cramped and uncomfortable - buy hey, it's China so who's surprised) and everything at SHA moves in slow motion. Anything less than three hours for the ground connection is risky; with the late-evening arrival time on SEA-PVG, SHA connections would require an overnight.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9321 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5263 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):

From I recall, SFO-NRT, PDX-NRT, SEA-PEK, SEA-KIX, plus some Hawaii-Japan use 763 at the moment.

Yes. KIX has had the 330 on it off and on.
HNL-FUK is a 767....I think NGO is going to see the 330 but i may be wrong.
KIX/NRT see the 67 every now and then.

Delta is adding a low C config to its 767 fleet for its beach market flying. You'll be seeing those aircraft on HNL-Japan and Japan-GUM/SPN.

LAXintl.....how many open China frequencies will this leave?(PEK/PVG only.)



yep.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25077 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5220 times:

Best I can figure there will be 28.

There was 37 when DL requested 2 additional ones to make Detroit-Beijing daily in August.
Subtract another 7 for this, should leave 28 in the pool for China Zone 1 frequencies.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6464 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
Why? So it amazes her that the 767 can support a route of that length, and it's a route that the 787 was designed for. I'm guessing you misread it and thought she said 767, not 787, in the second sentence.

You are right, I did read 767 instead of 787. My mistake.

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25 MaverickM11 : Even single airport connections within China are a bit of a goat-rodeo. This route should be fine on its own based on travel to/from PVG--it's tough
26 Fly2yyz : What about DL connections with KE? DL really wants to send their metal across the ocean it seems, but with KE soon to fly the C-Series...wouldnt that
27 United Airline : Any plans for HKG? SEA-HKG
28 dlflynhayn : Last time I checked HNL-NRT it was 2x daily 747, 1x daily 767.But it's probably down in capacity for winter schedule. Good luck to SEA-PVG were gonna
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