Quote: NEW DELHI: One of the two brand new Boeing 787 Dreamliners that Air India got last month is cooling its heels at Delhi airport since last week after its front cargo door developed a snag and now cannot be shut for the plane to get airborne. The aircraft, VT-ADN, was the second Dreamliner that AI got from Boeing on September 19, 11 days after getting the first one VT-ANH.
Sources say this Dreamliner remained in commercial domestic service barely for few days. Last Friday its front cargo hold door hinge 'disintegrated', while the baggage was being offloaded after the plane landed from Chennai. It has been grounded since then.
"The thing is that nothing hit the cargo door and the part simply disintegrated on its own. Boeing is to send a replacement part from Europe to Delhi via London but it hasn't come so far. The airline gets a bad name because of the composite material trouble (the light material B-787 is made of)," said sources.
AI spokesman G P Rao said, "VT-AND aircraft is on ground at Delhi due to disintegration of forward actuator arm bearing of forward cargo door. The spares are scheduled to arrive on Wednesday and the aircraft will return to service on Thursday. Boeing is investigating the incident along with DGCA."
What a strange incident. Can someone with more techincal expertise perhaps explain what could cause this bearing to suddenly disintegrate?
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Darksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 986 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8048 times:
Quoting aeroblogger (Thread starter):
What a strange incident. Can someone with more techincal expertise perhaps explain what could cause this bearing to suddenly disintegrate?
Until we see any more cases like this, operator error or sabotage are about the only possibilities. I have yet to work on a 787, but I have a fair bit of time with Boeing products, and these things really don't just "fall apart" on their own.
Completely inaccurate reporting of the situation is always a possibility as well.
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phxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 624 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7979 times:
Quoting aeroblogger (Thread starter): The airline gets a bad name because of the composite material trouble (the light material B-787 is made of)," said sources.
Pretty sure the airline gets a bad name from Air India and Air India alone. But I like the spin that composites are the reason
StuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1782 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7928 times:
I'm not really a Boeing fan any more than Airbus and I'm not nationalistic in the least, but this seems pretty sensational - and not in a good way. I'd bet a few bucks that this has more to do with Air India than with Boeing.
golfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 556 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7794 times:
AI might not be the brightest bulb on the aviation Christmas tree but I will give them a little more credit. It is not unheard of to have issues on a new type especially with new materials. Just because none of the other airlines have had this problem does not mean it is not possible.
Asiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1019 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7757 times:
Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 1): I have yet to work on a 787, but I have a fair bit of time with Boeing products, and these things really don't just "fall apart" on their own.
If it just is not correctly mounted it can sometimes happen. Component can break for many reasons, and maybe there was some impact at the previous flight etc., This is no big deal!!
Just shame that the plane has to be taken out of operation.
AA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5343 posts, RR: 11 Reply 7, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7668 times:
Oh sure, it just miraculously disintegrated.
And that particular media source has already blamed it on the composite structure.
Have we had a similar report from ANA, JAL, or Ethiopian? I certainly haven't heard of it.
Maybe they're just trying to strong arm Boeing Finance into somehow financing another 787 they cannot afford to take delivery of.
StuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1782 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7565 times:
Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 6): and maybe there was some impact at the previous flight etc.
and that might explain the "disintegration." Maybe if the part were aluminum they would have bent it severely and then it would have fractured and instead it (more dramatically) fractured after no ductile failure. Either way, it was a result of misuse if that's the case.
It may well be a design issue and something that Boeing has to correct, but Air India's wording in this has me pretty skeptical.
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7534 times:
Both 787s have had bird strikes recently.. I wonder if the impact damaged a component?
I'm not sure what the properties of composites are in terms of denting behavior and such...
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 8): Air India's wording in this has me pretty skeptical.
Just to clarify, this is Air India's wording:
Quote: VT-AND aircraft is on ground at Delhi due to disintegration of forward actuator arm bearing of forward cargo door. The spares are scheduled to arrive on Wednesday and the aircraft will return to service on Thursday. Boeing is investigating the incident along with DGCA.
What causes you to be skeptical about this? Do you think AI has randomly decided to ground the aircraft without any failure? Do you think that they are lying about when the spare parts will come in?
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DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 10, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7516 times:
Can someone provide some drawings of what this part is/does?
Such a mechanism appears to be Boeing's standard design for opening lower lobe cargo doors. One of the arms is driven via angular displacement about a pivot point, which straightens the linkage opening the door. It appears one of the bearings in this linkage may have failed.
Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
scouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3255 posts, RR: 10 Reply 12, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7180 times:
This sounds like a situation where someone drove a baggage truck into the plane and then said "I didn't do anything it just fell apart!" whilst looking shifty and hoping noone will notice at tear a strip off them
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26726 posts, RR: 83 Reply 13, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6757 times:
Do we know for a fact that this part is made out of CFRP, or are we just assuming it is because it's a 787?
And if it is, is this unique to the 787 or do other aircraft also use CFRP in this part?
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 15, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6254 times:
Quoting aeroblogger (Thread starter): Can someone with more techincal expertise perhaps explain what could cause this bearing to suddenly disintegrate?
It's not clear. There are several bearings in the opening linkage, as previously posted. In addition, the door itself attaches to the fuselage by way of a huge piano hinge.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
Do we know for a fact that this part is made out of CFRP, or are we just assuming it is because it's a 787?
We know for a fact that it's *not* CFRP. None of the hinge mechanisms or actuator links are.
What makes me very suspicious of this as a ramp-rash incident is that "disintegration" implies a catastrophic failure, which implies an overload. Thanks to maximum wind requirements, there's really no way to overload the door in normal operations. It could be a flat-out faulty part, but that should have showed up during pre-delivery testing. The plane is too new to have a fatigue failure and that generally leads to crack-through, not disintegration. Cargo doors are notorious ramp-rash magnets.
SSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 436 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6217 times:
Quoting golfradio (Reply 5): AI might not be the brightest bulb on the aviation Christmas tree but I will give them a little more credit. It is not unheard of to have issues on a new type especially with new materials. Just because none of the other airlines have had this problem does not mean it is not possible.
Around here they're the-boy-who-cried-wolf. Just about anything they say will be met with incredulity.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10696 posts, RR: 100 Reply 18, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6162 times:
Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 1): and these things really don't just "fall apart" on their own.
Exactly. ANA and JAL would not tolerate any such event.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 15): The plane is too new to have a fatigue failure and that generally leads to crack-through, not disintegration. Cargo doors are notorious ramp-rash magnets.
Most likely scenario.
My thought:
CFRP is likely to mask 'ramp rash' that would be obvious with Aluminum. If someone made a mistake and only a little part broke, what is the chance they 'covered their tracks?'
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6154 times:
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 15):
We know for a fact that it's *not* CFRP. None of the hinge mechanisms or actuator links are.
What makes me very suspicious of this as a ramp-rash incident is that "disintegration" implies a catastrophic failure, which implies an overload. Thanks to maximum wind requirements, there's really no way to overload the door in normal operations. It could be a flat-out faulty part, but that should have showed up during pre-delivery testing. The plane is too new to have a fatigue failure and that generally leads to crack-through, not disintegration. Cargo doors are notorious ramp-rash magnets.
Thank you for this highly informative post... It certainly is a very intriguing issue.
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DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 20, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5771 times:
Quoting jetmech (Reply 11): I suspect the item in question is the pivoting arm mechanism seen in the following photos.
Thank you. That looks like a 767, no?
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 15):
What makes me very suspicious of this as a ramp-rash incident is that "disintegration" implies a catastrophic failure, which implies an overload.
Does metal even "disintegrate" without a direct blow? Cracking or bending I can see, but turning into a shower of little bits? That strikes me as an odd thing for metal to do.
SSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 436 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5420 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20): turning into a shower of little bits? That strikes me as an odd thing for metal to do.
Metal's polycrystalline-- it could easily do that. It's just usually heat treated or alloyed in ways to prevent that sort of thing. No one wants brittle steel.
seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 4277 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5345 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20): Does metal even "disintegrate" without a direct blow? Cracking or bending I can see, but turning into a shower of little bits? That strikes me as an odd thing for metal to do.
I wouldn't take their choice of word too literally. I would bet a beer that it actually cracked into two or three pieces.
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KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11715 posts, RR: 52 Reply 23, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4898 times:
First of all, this is AI. They have been trying to blame anyone and everyone for their own problems. The likelyhood of this metal part simply "disintergrating" without some type of outside influence (accident, ramp rash, wind overload, etc.) is ZERO.
The pictures in reply # 11 are not a B-787, but they do show how the arms are attached to the cargo door. I say it is not a B-787 because UA just recently took delivery of their first one, and the interior shot and shot of the outside showing the door locking cams shows some wear and dirt, so it may be a B-767 or a B-777. Also that is not a GEnx-2B engine.
Gr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2988 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4118 times:
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 3): I'd bet a few bucks that this has more to do with Air India than with Boeing.
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2): Pretty sure the airline gets a bad name from Air India and Air India alone.
Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 12): This sounds like a situation where someone drove a baggage truck into the plane and then said "I didn't do anything it just fell apart!" whilst looking shifty and hoping noone will notice at tear a strip off them
Quoting SSTeve (Reply 16): Around here they're the-boy-who-cried-wolf. Just about anything they say will be met with incredulity.
Isn't it amazing how you can make such comments without even knowing the full story....? Just because AI has been having bad publcity on various fronts doesn't mean you can jump to such conclusions.....bear in mind that they've been operating planes for well over 60 years now.....
Quoting golfradio (Reply 5): Just because none of the other airlines have had this problem does not mean it is not possible.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23): First of all, this is AI. They have been trying to blame anyone and everyone for their own problems. The likelyhood of this metal part simply "disintergrating" without some type of outside influence (accident, ramp rash, wind overload, etc.) is ZERO.
Wow! You seem to know more about the 787 than Boeing themselves
25 KC135TopBoom: No, I do not. But I know a BS story when I see one. Metal parts just do not "disintergrate" without something happening to them, that was my point.
26 n797mx: Knowing AI and its history with Boeing I wouldn't put sabotage out of the question so they can get a discount of sorts on the 787...
27 AWACSooner: This incident should be worth about 2 dozen free 787's in AI's eyes...
28 Gr8Circle: Well, that just reinforces what I said in my earlier point.......you seem to know more than all the experts out there, without even having seen anyth
29 aerobalance: Have you been to India? Have you done business with any entities in India? I've done business with their government in the aerospace field - it's tru
30 Gr8Circle: Much more than you, having been born and brought up in Mumbai I know very well about the problems of corruption in India.....I was referring to the a
31 manny: Wow..the choir preaching against AI is in full swing. It so co-ordinated and synchronized it would put a symphony to shame!
32 xdlx: The day India shows the world they are capable of supporting an aerospace product correctly.... the tide of "remarks and conclusions" will turn. Until
33 Aesma: Well the problem is that the story we get from India is also making assumptions that seem very unlikely. So ensues a backlash.
34 Stitch: A valid point, but a few (including "sources" quoted by The Times of India) jumped to the conclusion that this was a failure of a CFRP part unique to
35 aeroblogger: Air India's maintenance department is one of the best... There may be all kinds of shenanigans at AI when it comes to financing and management, but I
36 Revelation: Ok, since we should try hard to give AI the benefit of the doubt, is there any ambiguity to the use of the word 'disintegration'? I am an American wh
37 aeroblogger: I wouldn't know - I did my schooling in the US, so the word means definition (b) to me, and I've never actually heard anybody use the word "disintegr
38 Revelation: LOL, surely the Indians I've met are much more polite than us Americans - we'd say "the ****ing piece of **** broke!"
39 tdscanuck: If this were any other airline, I'd still suspect ramp rash as the primary cause absent other data. Spontaneous failure of new metal components in so
40 StuckInCA: I don't see how you could claim that based on my remarks. The statements from India had sensaitonal words such as "disintegrated." Even if a part fai
41 aeroblogger: I wouldn't consider the word "disintegrated" sensational. I would consider it descriptive. If that's what happened, that's what I'd expect any organi
42 zeke: The 787 is still a newish aircraft, not a lot have been built. There are plenty of ADs issued in the past where the manufacturer got it wrong in the
43 BEG2IAH: I wouldn't say "disintegration" is the most sensationalist word in this press release. The "light material B-787 is made of" is. If the actuator took
44 Stitch: Whomever the "sources" are quoted in the article, they said that nothing hit the door, just that it failed sometime after opening, so that would rule
45 KC135TopBoom: The arm for the cargo door is just an updated version of the cargo door arm Boeing started putting on the KC-135 back in 1955. That may be true, but
46 kanban: If AI files a warranty claim, they will be returned, if not the on site Boeing rep may request or just photograph the units. (and probably already has
47 lightsaber: The only way I know is rapid formation of ice inside a porous metal or a volume inside the metal. For example, during climb. Oh, one can do it with e
48 Revelation: Indeed: So it seems the key players are in the loop.
50 Gr8Circle: Fully agree on that point.....TOI was once upon a time a very respectable paper......they've now dropped their standards on all fronts.....and when i
51 aeroblogger: The maintenance department would be where the cause of incident would be analyzed. I am confident that they are not so incompetent as to not be able
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My thoughts exactly.
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