catiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2279 posts, RR: 3 Posted (7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 12074 times:
Good WSJ article on DL's expansion at LGA in today's WSJ. Fair use from the article:
Located in the borough of Queens just a few miles from midtown Manhattan, La Guardia has long been a prime gateway into and out of New York, handing 24 million passengers a year with just two intersecting runways and overcrowded terminals, taxiways and gates. Passengers endure delays in exchange for the convenience of proximity to the city, but few would go there simply to switch flights.
Delta is now trying to change that. After acquiring a large block of landing slots and gates from US Airways Group Inc. earlier this year, Delta added more than 100 additional flights a day at La Guardia, switched some flights to larger airplanes and began building a hub.
It brings up a good point: is DL trying to congest LGA to the point it drives out competitors and therefore wins New York? Seems like a good strategy.
It brings up a good point: is DL trying to congest LGA to the point it drives out competitors and therefore wins New York? Seems like a good strategy.
The answer to your question is yes and no:
The only way they can do that is get more shots, butt from this point onward it's going to be very difficult to buy more without gov scrutiny. Second is that if they bring in more pax then their terminals can handle it only hinders them, since they only share their terminal space with one other airline. That means other airlines terminal space is not encroached by added DL traffic. The flip side to this argument is that if DL has enough terminal space to handle a large influx of pax they can put mainline aircraft on many routes where competitors have RJ and if they capture enough traffic to fill all those mainline planes with O&D plus connecting traffic they can have lower costs and drive the competition out of the market with lower fares. But it's very difficult to do since most off the remaining flights from competing airlines are heading to their hubs and by that virtue will capture most of the O&D traffic with connections beyond to fill the rest of their planes.
davescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2244 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 11169 times:
DL is a major presence at LGA, I think we would all agree.
But where would DL get more slots from? Who would be willing to sell them?
I also think that LGA is limited in its present configuration of runways and terminals. Can you seriously imagine how much a large (or even small) expansion at LGA would cost? I can't see the Port Authority doing that anytime soon.
What would be better: some sort of non stop connection between LGA and JFK. While a train from secured area to secured area would be idea, I do not think it will happen. The reason I suggest this is it would allow domestic traffic to arrive at either JFK or LGA, and in the case of the latter, have an easy connection to JFK for an international flight.
Quoting davescj (Reply 3): But where would DL get more slots from?
It seems the strategy is more along the lines of optimizing what they have:
Quote:
And with careful scheduling, expanding terminals and experience in running overcrowded hubs, the world's second-biggest airline by traffic behind United Airlines Inc. says it can get away with it, even at cramped La Guardia.
and:
Quote:
Delta counters that its changes could reduce delays at La Guardia because it replaced slower-flying US Airways turboprop airplanes with faster jets.
and:
Quote:
To spread out passengers from gate areas and corridors as much as possible, Delta is spending $200 million to overhaul its La Guardia facilities, replacing low-traffic stores with high-traffic food vendors, turning administrative offices into extra gate seating and expanding a former US Airways club.
I don't think it'll become a pure hub, but their goal is set high:
Quote:
Delta expects 70% of its passengers at La Guardia to be New York customers and 30% to be connecting passengers. Historically, only 5% of La Guardia passengers have made connections.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 10891 times:
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 1): In this article, Delta claims they expect 30% of pax to be connecting through LGA. That seems really high. Is it realistic?
It is going to be a nightmere when weather has people misconnect and have alot of people sleeping in the airport. The prices of hotels in the area is already crazy one snow storm and prices are a week of a hotel in most other places. Weekdays forget abouuuuut it you are gonna pay a huge price for that missed connection alot of the time
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5318 posts, RR: 47 Reply 6, posted (7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10825 times:
Quoting catiii (Thread starter): It brings up a good point: is DL trying to congest LGA to the point it drives out competitors and therefore wins New York? Seems like a good strategy.
I'm not an expert (obviously) but honestly I don't see DL "chasing" anyone out... MAYBE a couple routes may get pulled, but what would be the cost? DL would clog up one of their hubs just to knock some competitors out (maybe) ?
I can maybe see them buying slots and sitting on them (if that is allowed) but I don't think that would be that efficient. Go with larger planes DL, like you're doing now
JAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1196 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10695 times:
Why would any airline want to use NYC as a hub - and LGA in particular? If the point is maximizing flights by funneling passengers onward through a single point, aren't their other, less congested airports with better runways? It would seem to me that LGA is best used for O&D passengers. Back in the day - and perhaps still -- LGA could get so backed up on busy days with those intersecting runways.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 9, posted (7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10573 times:
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 7): Why would any airline want to use NYC as a hub - and LGA in particular? If the point is maximizing flights by funneling passengers onward through a single point, aren't their other, less congested airports with better runways? It would seem to me that LGA is best used for O&D passengers. Back in the day - and perhaps still -- LGA could get so backed up on busy days with those intersecting runways.
I've sat and waited on the ground for 2.5-3 hours at LGA because: "Ladies and gentlemen, we're number 46 in line for departure."
I don't understand why New Yorkers love LGA so much. The only public transport is the bus. The delays are world-famous. There's a perimeter rule.
Good luck, DL. Sometimes your business strategy mystifies me.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10481 posts, RR: 20 Reply 11, posted (7 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9712 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6): I can maybe see them buying slots and sitting on them (if that is allowed) but I don't think that would be that efficient. Go with larger planes DL, like you're doing now
I think that's the strategy. In the article they admit there are no more slots to be had and no more space on the ground. They have no choice but to improve the efficiency of the current operation.
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 7): Why would any airline want to use NYC as a hub - and LGA in particular? If the point is maximizing flights by funneling passengers onward through a single point, aren't their other, less congested airports with better runways?
Sure, in Denver, but that's not where the pax are.
It's kind of like asking why US has its hub at PHL instead of PIT, when PIT has so much more room.
DL is trying to make lemonade out of the lemons it has in NYC, two operations miles apart yet neither one able to expand to meet the opportunity. In both places they are doubling down to get the most they can out of a weak initial point. I think it's more feasible because they seem to have their staff on-board with the strategy.
I doubt they'll ever see LGA have 70% connecting traffic, but it'll be interesting to watch them try.
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6520 posts, RR: 11 Reply 12, posted (7 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9284 times:
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 7): Why would any airline want to use NYC as a hub - and LGA in particular? If the point is maximizing flights by funneling passengers onward through a single point, aren't their other, less congested airports with better runways? It would seem to me that LGA is best used for O&D passengers. Back in the day - and perhaps still -- LGA could get so backed up on busy days with those intersecting runways.
What do you guys/gals think?
There must be some healthy O&D to make a hub work. As it stands, DL only intends to transfer about 30% of its pax at LGA. That's up substantially from what it was pre slot-swap.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
usdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 756 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8747 times:
In my opinion, DL is using the term "hub" loosely for LGA. I think what they mean is that they'll fly to a lot of cities out of LGA, pure and simple. If they happen to get connecting pax, so much the better, but ATL or DTW are much more effective unless you were traveling from some place in New England to say, Dulles or Pittsburgh. I think the unique connecting opportunities will be few and far between, but there will be strong DL service at LGA in the years ahead if only because of NYC.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5318 posts, RR: 47 Reply 15, posted (7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8563 times:
Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 14): In my opinion, DL is using the term "hub" loosely for LGA.
I agree... there aren't many markets ONLY served by LGA, are there? All big stations are going to have connecting passengers, it just happens. WN isn't meant to have a hub operation and their fanboys scream that they don't but the fact remains a good chunk of their passengers connect.
On the flip side, 70% is O&D to the 'preferred' airport to the largest city for travelling, NYC. (well London may or may not be higher, not sure, but that's not my point)
AirAfreak From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 244 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7940 times:
I think LGA is a great idea!
During the ATL summer hurricane season, DL can re-route passengers via LGA whilst during the LGA winter storms, DL can use ATL, for example.
It's nice to have options. I would rather fly another hour or two out of my way earning a few more frequent flier miles, than waiting in an airport... unless it was Amsterdam or maybe Seoul.
aviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1347 posts, RR: 12 Reply 19, posted (7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7702 times:
Quoting catiii (Thread starter): Delta added more than 100 additional flights a day at La Guardia, switched some flights to larger airplanes and began building a hub.
What's been missing from this discussion all along is that the VAST majority of DL's expansion at LGA involves contractor carriers (RJs), not Delta itself. At least for now.
[Edited 2012-10-12 18:51:29]
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
michman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 327 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7234 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 13): My bad - you are correct, the goal is around 30%, up from the current 5%.
I read the article somewhat differently. I think the goal is to make a profit, not necessarily hitting some particular amount of connecting traffic. The main money is in the O&D traffic, but as they replace the 50-seat fleet with larger aircraft they likely realize they will have trouble filling the larger aircraft with only O&D traffic (or at least trouble filling it without trashing the yields). The 30% connecting number is likely just what they expect they will need to backfill the flights with while maintaining good yields on the O&D traffic and generating an overall profit.
rwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2158 posts, RR: 7 Reply 22, posted (7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7201 times:
Quoting aviateur (Reply 19): What's been missing from this discussion all along is that the VAST majority of DL's expansion at LGA involves contractor carriers (RJs), not Delta itself. At least for now.
When there's a problem with a DCI carrier, people claim that their ticket says 'Delta', so it's Delta! Now you're saying that DCI carriers (RJ operators) aren't Delta. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Can we please get a consensus?
The early bird gets the worm, BUT...the second mouse gets the cheese!
WDBRR From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 604 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6935 times:
I don't understand why Delta spent so much money on the terminal
connectors when US and DL could have swapped terminals.
Wasn't the US Terminal muich larger since it was built for EA & CO.
Deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8590 posts, RR: 8 Reply 24, posted (7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6879 times:
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 22): Now you're saying that DCI carriers (RJ operators) aren't Delta
They aren't Delta. They fly for them, and are paid by Delta....but aren't Delta.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
25 rwy04lga: Ummm, I know that, I work with all the DCI carriers every day (well, the 3 days that I work). Just pointing out that....tell you what, reread his pos
26 jporterfi: It appears DL is using LGA as a "regional-jet funnel" for connecting traffic: get passengers off of RJs and onto either other RJs or mainline aircraf
27 FlyMeToTheMoon: In my many years of commuting from DC to NYC I eventually switched from the DCA - LGA route to the IAD - JFK route. Easier to get into IAD during morn
28 bobnwa: there business strategy appears to be working when you compare their profitability with other carriers. I don't think Delta has ever said thy are loo
29 neveragain: Never thought we would go from the idea of an ATL reliever hub in MEM to one at LGA! Let's say there is a severe weather event in ATL that shuts the
30 neveragain: I think you guys have it backwards. I doubt Delta has the "goal" of connecting 30% of passengers through LGA, notwithstanding what may have been repo
31 SESGDL: Slightly off topic but LGA had no where near 53,000 domestic seats yesterday for DL, that's more than DTW and MSP have daily. But your logic is corre
32 neveragain: Jeremy--you're absolutely right. Those numbers wiere for all airlines. Oops! Will rerun later today.
33 Revelation: Yes, thanks for both of these statements, they reflect the reality of the situation. It seems that DL hopes to use its control of a larger percentage
34 jfklganyc: Guys, let's not make this situation sound so risky. Draw an hour drive ring from LGA and you hit close to 15 million people. The airport has a limite
35 Revelation: Well, this is highlighting the risk factor - LGA has left a bad impression with the traveling public. I know things have changed a lot for many diffe
36 FlyASAGuy2005: I'm not missing anything. Are you?... Terminal C cannot support Delta's OPS by itself. That's evident in the fact that their using BOTH D AND new gat
37 lightsaber: I think this sums it up. However, it won't be RJ free, but I would suspect 50-seat RJ free. Upgauge routes with a larger RJ. If the seats have to be
38 neveragain: Indeed. The risk is that's it's a highly competitive market and DL's use of larger gauge aircraft means more seats are being added to the market over
39 neveragain: Is that in some airline economics textbook somewhere? The best spot to have a hub is in a market with high O&D. True. Why? Because O&D traffi
40 neveragain: Thanks again for catching the error. Redoing the math from post 29: Yesterday, DL and its affiliates flew approximately 112,000 domestic seats from A
41 cokepopper: Its been mentioned that Delta serves 48 out of the top 50 markets out of LGA or is it all of NYC? And what are the two cities that Delta doesn't serve
43 PIEAvantiP180: YYZ is one, not sure about the second. But Toronto is covered with the WS code share out of LGA.
44 akelley728: Last Sunday I flew ORF-LGA-MSY. I normally would have done ORF-ATL-MSY but the LGA flight was cheaper than the ATL flight (apparantly the lower fare b
45 RyanairGuru: I think that DL's "hub" at LGA and US' "focus city" at DCA are practically the same thing: both are stuck half way between a hub and a focus city. Bo
46 neveragain: Looking at the list below, I believe HNL and ABQ, although I can't access OAG right now to verify. Top 50 markets (all airports in multi-airport mark
47 HVNandrew: It comes down to LGA being the lesser of the other evils. JFK is a Charlie Foxtrot most of the time, and EWR can be a nightmare itself. Additionally,
48 enilria: Delta can't do anything to congest the airfield, really. The number of slots are fixed. DL has not created any slots. They just switched from one air
49 neveragain: The idea of DL wanting to "achieve" any connecting percentage at LGA remains laughable to me. Of course there will be seats filled with connecting pa
50 catiii: Good point. Hadn't looked at it that way. I would imagine they'd have an easier time of it given that it's a PANYNJ rule and not something done by th
51 Delimit: The reason New Yorkers love LGA is that when it works it works fantastically. Midtown to gate in 30 minutes is easily achievable, assuming average to
52 mogandoCI: I live in Manhattan, and there's no good way to go to LGA during rush hour, versus rather good reliability of NJT/LIRR going to EWR/JFK. I've recentl
53 catiii: Totally agree. Leaving at Sunday night on a 7P flight? 30 mins from door to gate is achievable. Leaving at a normal time for a business traveler? No
54 cokepopper: I wonder with the build up of LGA if Delta would consider bringing back the water taxi.
55 neveragain: Actually it looks like there are 4 not served from NYC: ABQ, SMF, HNL, and CAK. DL may be using "market" interchangeably with "airport," in which case
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From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2279 posts, 
Too bad DL didn't acquire these LGA slots a couple of decades ago.
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