mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18724 times:
A couple of items to start things off.
I've been scratching my head at the power that the Mercer freeholders have, because, presumably, if they had voted against Frontier the service wouldn't have happened.
"Mercer County Freeholders unanimously pass Frontier Airlines agreement
We are here at the right time, with the right plane and the right strategy,” said Robert Ashcroft, Frontier’s senior vice president for finance, during his presentation to the freeholders yesterday. He said ticket sales had already been robust for the scheduled flights to and from Orlando, Fla."
But not to be Little Mary Sunshine, there is a downside at TTN. Signature has just dropped its flights to Bedford MA (its only commercial flights), and while the Freeholders were positive, they were not all starry-eyed:
“In my years on this board we have had a lot of airlines come in here and I’ve heard them all and they all promised a lot of things,” Carabelli said. “But I am willing to keep on trying until we hit pay dirt.”
Given the notorious NIMBY-ism there, though, I wonder what happens IF Frontier (or anyone) adds flights at TTN - what number the tipping point against new service would be?
Separately, Frontier's on-time performance at DEN has improved. For the second month in a row it is #1 of the Big Three airlines there - although not #1 overall:
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 18697 times:
I understand you like F9 but why do we need this thread anymore? We should do what we do with every other airline and have a thread for a specific topic. It makes it more organized and gives each topic a common ground. I think this chain thread should be closed for good.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 2, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 18669 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1): I understand you like F9 but why do we need this thread anymore? We should do what we do with every other airline and have a thread for a specific topic. It makes it more organized and gives each topic a common ground. I think this chain thread should be closed for good.
As I recall, you started thread #38, the last thread, which reached 282 posts.
You can always ask for deletion and we can go back to the old days, when there would often be four or five live Frontier threads. I'm easy either way.
KBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 96 posts, RR: 8 Reply 3, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 18622 times:
I prefer it this way as I really got tired of reading all of the Frontier threads where there would be duplicate posts and debate throughout all threads. As a vendor to F9 I find these discussions helpful and they help me communicate with my contacts inside of Frontier which adds value to our relationship. I can honestly say that because of these threads my company has been better informed and better able to help Frontier realize thousands of dollars in savings over the past 18 months.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 18618 times:
For TTN I understand the boards frustration as the airport has been not the best record of success but i think it really has potential especially in this high fuel world we are in. Florida has already proven succesful indiviudually as a route for Eastwind regardless of the airline and NIMBYs. I did not see any mention in the article of the county/state/airport etc giving Frontier any money which i thought was interesting? Granted i am on a smart phone but is Frontier trying TTN unsubsidized? I have not seen anything and tried to look that up. Eastwind did proove there is a solid market from TTN to Florida is someone flys it its the safest destination
Quoting mariner (Thread starter): And AMR has announced COU-DFW and COU-ORD - I wonder if this hurts or improves the chances of COU-DEN?
I would say hurts. I think most airports and businesses would rather have AA Eagle with more daily type regional service and its connection power than Frontier. Frontier might be better for low budget vacationers etc but they are also more willing to drive to MCI or STL anyway with the family in a mini van. The businesses probably really wanted Eagle over a less than daily service and who can blame them.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 18605 times:
With TTN. I understand the boards frustration as the airport has been not the best record of success but i think it really has potential especially in this high fuel world we are in. Florida has already proven succesful indiviudually as a route for Eastwind regardless of the airline and NIMBYs. I hope Frontier flies this i would hate to see TTN sit there
Quoting mariner (Thread starter): And AMR has announced COU-DFW and COU-ORD - I wonder if this hurts or improves the chances of COU-DEN?
I would say hurts. I think most airports and businesses would rather have AA Eagle with more daily type regional service and its connection power than Frontier. Frontier might be better for vacationers etc but they are also more willing to drive to MCI or STL anyway with the family in a mini van.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 6, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 18579 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 4): I did not see any mention in the article of the county/state/airport etc giving Frontier any money which i thought was interesting?
That surprised me - as in fall over in shock. I wonder if there is deal that falls outside the scope of this - or if, indeed, Frontier is "going it alone."
if so, that changes things. If so, it suggests that Silent Siegel is not risk averse.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 5): I would say hurts. I think most airports and businesses would rather have AA Eagle with more daily type regional service and its connection power than Frontier. Frontier might be better for vacationers etc but they are also more willing to drive to MCI or STL anyway with the family in a mini van.
I think it toss a coin, just because it is DEN - which, according to some reports, is the "favored destination" from COU.
"I was surprised to learn the other day from a presumably reliable source that more people flying from Columbia would aim for Denver than Chicago, but upon a bit of contemplation I can believe it. Both are attractive destination cities. Denver is the largest hub to the entire west. Chicago is only one of several going northeast."
Doesn't mean it would be Frontier, of course. With American and Delta at COU, can United be far behind?
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 538 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 18430 times:
LJ (Larry Jr.) (N934FR) took off from South Bend, Indiana this morning marking Frontier's inaugural flight from SBN-DEN. The flight was full. Now Michiana travelers do not need to connect at ORD to get to someplace in the west. The flight is also perfectly timed as the folks do not need to get up early as they would if connecting in DTW or ORD. I think we can also thank Allegiant for stimulating the traffic at SBN making these SBN-DEN flights viable for Frontier. As folks can see in the video the old A3 jetway easily fit the A319 and also F9 now has the biggest pushback tractor at the airport.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 18418 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 2): You can always ask for deletion and we can go back to the old days, when there would often be four or five live Frontier threads. I'm easy either way.
I mean its nothing against anyone, I just think it would be better to do what we do with every other airline instead of grouping it. B6 makes just a many announcements but their we have no problems with separate threads. Just my 2 cents.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 9, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 18379 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8): I mean its nothing against anyone, I just think it would be better to do what we do with every other airline instead of grouping it. B6 makes just a many announcements but their we have no problems with separate threads. Just my 2 cents.
For whatever reason (perhaps before your time here?) Frontier has always attracted a lot of threads, seemingly more than several other airlines, which is why these "omnibus" came about. At the time they were started, there were six live Frontier threads.
Surely, the concept of them has attracted negativity, not just from Southwest supporters, and there have also been attempts to start omnibus threads about other airlines.
Not everything said here warrants its own thread and there are other live threads about Frontier now. Here, for example:
So I'm not sure what the perceived problem is and people seem to like these threads, whether their attitudes to Frontier are positive or, quite often, negative.
If not, if no one is interested, these threads will simply go away - for that lack of interest.
As I've said, I'm easy, I'll post anywhere. My known interest in Frontier has long made me wary of starting these - but I probably wouldn't post some of the information that comes to me in other threads.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4542 posts, RR: 28 Reply 10, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18202 times:
After 39 threads, each with hundreds of posts, I would tend to say the Frontier threads are a clear success. Why should we kill off something that clearly has been well-received by so many? Besides, there are a number of other similar threads, though they tend to be geo-politically vs carrier related.
Anyhow, I hope the threads continue. I've learned a lot about Frontier as well as the industry as a whole.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18010 times:
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 17985 times:
GARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1477 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 17988 times:
Mariner,
I have been hearing through a lot of sources about a tie-up/merger/acquisition between Spirit and Frontier.
With the ex CFO of Frontier now at Spirit, the rumblings are even more so. I was wondering what your
thoughts on this were. You are the resident expert on all things F9. Do you see this happening?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 14, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 17955 times:
Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 13): I have been hearing through a lot of sources about a tie-up/merger/acquisition between Spirit and Frontier.
With the ex CFO of Frontier now at Spirit, the rumblings are even more so. I was wondering what your
thoughts on this were.
I haven't heard anything about that - which doesn't mean it isn't happening, only that I haven;t heard about it.
Anything is possible, but a sale to another airline is the least likely of the three options available to Republic.
I don't think any other airline would pay enough money.
Assuming all goes to plan, that Frontier becomes continuously profitable, then even as a minority investor Republic is likely to make out like bandits with the eventual IPO of the eventual spin-off and BB has said Republic will be "patient investors" until it happens.
I have always thought that TPG might have some interest in this, since Silent Siegel is "their guy."
But if someone comes along and offers a big stash of cash, that could easily change. It would have to be a fairly big stash, though.
It's a long game and it's a money game - more than an airline game.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17882 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 12): Well I have been here not as a member for years,
A belated welcome.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4737 posts, RR: 30 Reply 16, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17761 times:
Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 13): Mariner,
I have been hearing through a lot of sources about a tie-up/merger/acquisition between Spirit and Frontier.
With the ex CFO of Frontier now at Spirit, the rumblings are even more so. I was wondering what your
thoughts on this were. You are the resident expert on all things F9. Do you see this happening?
This rumor has been going on for years. I am sure the two sides have sat down a few times. F9 is becoming more attractive now that it is generating profits, and turning around. However, that raises the price big time for F9. I agree that it would be a great tie up for both airlines for sure. One important thing to consider is the difference in culture. If F9 becomes Spirit, it would require a dramatic change to F9 and its employees. If Spirit became Frontier, it would require a dramatic change to Spirit and its employees. Kind of a culture shock if you ask me.
If it did happen, I would much rather see F9 name and style remain, and perhaps adapt to some of Spirits ways. Again, this rumor has been active for years. There was also the rumor of G4, and even US. Whatever the case, it appears that F9 is going it solo, and has really changed for the better. Excited to hear about the possibility of a new IFE system on F9! Now, that is not the Spirit way.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1961 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17697 times:
Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 13): a tie-up/merger/acquisition between Spirit and Frontier.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 16): I would much rather see F9 name and style remain, and perhaps adapt to some of Spirits ways. Again, this rumor has been active for years.
Going into the world of what-if, assuming that there is any tie-up/merger/acquisition between F9 and NK, I think that it best be one in which both remain separate carriers, and have one corporate entity manage any synergies that would occur with this. Something along the lines of AF/KL (although reportedly the AF brand is dragging down the profits KL brings in) because it seems that any diddlling, especially with F9, would just upset a lot of balance that F9 has recently achieved to become profitable. And NK also works pretty well as it is now.
So...... there probably are synergies to be realized and gained with such a consolidation. However, each brand has of late become set in how they achieve their profits, and both have their niches (and big picture-wise somehow non-complimentary with each other) in which it seems that even any slight changes could very well upset the profitable balance that both carriers now produce.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 17599 times:
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 17373 times:
I am completely shocked F9 did not make it in the top ten of the poll. If you compare apples with apples I thought their IFE product is as good if not better than a couple carriers which made the list. Any thoughts as to why? My first thought was the poll was skewed in someway possibly because of the ULCC branding.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 17356 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 14): I haven't heard anything about that - which doesn't mean it isn't happening, only that I haven;t heard about it.
Anything is possible, but a sale to another airline is the least likely of the three options available to Republic.
I don't think any other airline would pay enough money.
Assuming all goes to plan, that Frontier becomes continuously profitable, then even as a minority investor Republic is likely to make out like bandits with the eventual IPO of the eventual spin-off and BB has said Republic will be "patient investors" until it happens.
I have always thought that TPG might have some interest in this, since Silent Siegel is "their guy."
But if someone comes along and offers a big stash of cash, that could easily change. It would have to be a fairly big stash, though.
It's a long game and it's a money game - more than an airline game.
I dont think Republic is even thinking they can ever break even on Frontier/Midwest from all the money they spent and time and additional employees studying planning moving the HQ then removing it back to Denver etc etc.
They have to be "patient" investors i dont think they have a single option right now...no one wants to buy a DEN hub, no one needs the airbus fleet so badly, and who is gonna buy Frontier stock right now?
Even best case lets say frontier is continuously profitable its still unstable and vulnerable no one is gonna throw mega bucks for it will they? I know you love Frontier but i think Republic is willing to loose money in a sale easily to get it off its hands. I doubt anyone there thinks its ever gonna be a good profitable long term investment they just have to act like that they its an investment and they want to sell it and look optomistic. Making money a few quarters or years is not going to cover Republic either i think they would prefer to just get out quickly the option doesnt exist right now. If spirit wants it they would demand a great price im sure Denver is a risky market but Republic would sell at a loss IMHO to how much they have thrown into the airline. In the end its an investment Republic clearly wishes they didnt make and will spin off the airline if they have too not make a ton in cash but to get it out of their hands. i would not listen to a work Republic or Frontier says they have to say its looking good Republic cant publically say they want to ditch it but moving the HQ and wanting to spin it off are clearly that its called buyers remource and the store has no return policy. I think Republic very much wants a sale its just that no one wants to buy it and acquire that DEN hub and be up against WN and UA except maybe spirit. Spirit would be a great option for Frontier IMHO they are shifting ot the ULCC format anyway and it would keep alot of the jobs in Denver and MCO woudlnt it? Times are so tough i want prices to remain competative and people to keep their jobs obviously
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 17321 times:
Anybody notice the website newfrontierairlines.com? It's worth a look. Think what you will about this proposal, but this John Miller gets an "A" for ambition and effort. What do you suppose the likelihood of this actually happening and being a success?
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 17303 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 21): Anybody notice the website newfrontierairlines.com? It's worth a look. Think what you will about this proposal, but this John Miller gets an "A" for ambition and effort. What do you suppose the likelihood of this actually happening and being a success?
Very low chance it happens or could be successful. Thru lots of trial and error all profitable hub cities are already hubs or being on the way out i think.
I questioned how authentic that website is? I made many similar hypothetical papers and proposals as an MBA student that would have looked just like that.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 23, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 17301 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 20): I dont think Republic is even thinking they can ever break even on Frontier/Midwest from all the money they spent and time and additional employees studying planning moving the HQ then removing it back to Denver etc etc.
Sorry, but BB has said it.
He explained what was going on to the staff, and said Republic will make its money on the eventual IPO - and until then they will be "patient investors."
No private investor expects to make money, at least it the venture days, from an airline's profits - they expect to make money from the IPO - even the 2PO.
Venture capitalist George Soros hasn't made any money from JetBlue's profits, it's never declared a dividend. He sold a big bunch of shares with the IPO and just afterwards, when the share were about $40 - and are worth $5 now.
Oaktree Capital did a similar thing with Spirit. It didn't hand around waiting to make its money back from profits. It sold a big bunch of shares with the IPO and then sold the rest of them later. Oaktree is now completely out of Spirit.
Republic is the venture capitalist here.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 20): They have to be "patient" investors i dont think they have a single option right now...no one wants to buy a DEN hub, no one needs the airbus fleet so badly, and who is gonna buy Frontier stock right now?
No one, because - again - they're not selling it "right now."
The whole thing rests on Frontier becoming continuously profitable, at which point the equation changes. This is why Silent Siegel is so laser focussed on profit - not growth.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 20): I know you love Frontier but i think Republic is willing to loose money in a sale easily to get it off its hands.
I don't know what my supposed "love" for Frontier has to do with it. I'm just going by what BB has said and my ownunderstanding of how these deals are done.
There is also psychology at work. If BB sells Frontier for peanuts, it's a blemish on his reputation as an expert money man. If he turns it around and RJET shareholders make money, then his reputation is enhanced.
One mo 'time - it isn't about airlines. It is about money. If Republic's Frontier had been the most successful airline in the world there would still have been an IPO.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 24, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 17282 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 23): his is why Silent Siegel is so laser focussed on profit - not growth.
It may be worth saying a few words about Silent Siegel.
Much of his reputation among airline people is based on his disastrous experience at US Airways, but of course, he had a life before that, especially at Continental.
Here's what the legendary CEO of Continental - Gordon Bethune - had to say about him, and others:
"But Mr. Siegel's trial by fire came at Continental, which underwent a broad restructuring after Mr. Bethune took over in 1994. Mr. Siegel helped close the airline's no-frills arm, Continental Lite, which had lost $140 million since it began. He later was president of Continental Express, the regional jet operator.
''Dave is an architect of our revitalized airline,'' Mr. Bethune said. ''You couldn't ask for a better executive in charge of scheduling. He's no slouch on the other side either, when we had to make the company profitable and reliable. He put the investment in the maintenance programs that make the company work reliably.''
When Mr. Siegel joined Avis, he brought along people he knew at Continental and Northwest. He set out to broaden Avis's customer base beyond business travelers and to raise revenue with an airline technique called yield management. ''He's a rare combination of an excellent strategic thinker with very good operating skills,'' said John Chidsey, chairman of the vehicle services division of Cendant, Avis's parent. ''He certainly helped us focus much more on the leisure business.''
As he did at Avis, Mr. Siegel has hired colleagues from previous jobs. He says he needs people who can not only deal with labor, but can also carry out his other restructuring plans, which include finding a code-share partner, increasing the use of regional jets and strengthening hubs.
When asked why they would join him at a floundering company, he said: ''I don't know. Clinical insanity?'' Then he gave what he said he believed to be the real answer -- the chance to experience the pure rush of transforming a company in a matter of months, something many executives yearn for."
A lot of people have asked me if I think he will stay at Frontier, and I don't know. He may decide the time has come to enjoy running an airline.
But - once a fix-it man, always a fix-it man? Silent Siegel himself said this, of Continental Express:
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 17381 times:
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 26, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 17393 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 25): Executives lie a lot to everyone including employees.
If you want to take that view, there isn't much anyone can say and debate becomes pointless.
But since, from the start of this, March 2011, the FAPA agreement, BB has laid out what is likely to happen - and I watch it happen - then I have no reason to be cynical.
I think it is offensive to accuse people of lying and officers of a publicly held corporation can charged by by the SEC if they lie - or misrepresent the truth.
It also completely ignores - as you seem to do quite a lot - the $50 million turnaround at Frontier between Q2 2011 and Q2 2012 - from $34 million loss to $14 million profit.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 27, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 17565 times:
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 28, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 17568 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 27): I was not making any opinion or anything by saying they lie, I was just putting that out their. I was not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone.
Then I have no idea why you would make that statement within this context.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 29, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 17572 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 28): Then I have no idea why you would make that statement within this context.
Because I would say it about anyone. Dave Barger, Richard Anderson, Jeff Simsik, all executives lie and so if someone says "___ said" then I want to remind people that people lie.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 30, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 17525 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 29): Because I would say it about anyone. Dave Barger, Richard Anderson, Jeff Simsik, all executives lie and so if someone says "___ said" then I want to remind people that people lie.
I don't follow any of those people, I have no idea if they have "lied" or not. On balance I would think it extremely unlikely. because the price is so high.
Certainly CEO's have lied in the past, and usually have paid a very high price for so doing.
There is always, of course, the difference between stated intention and what they are actually able to achieve, and a possible difference between what they actually say - and what people think they have said.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 31, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17385 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 25): Executives lie a lot to everyone including employees
Twenty or more years ago I would have agreed with you. For the senior leadership to skew or skirt the truth in today's environment is a one way ticket to loose creditability
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 32, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17348 times:
I simply disagree with you. Republic has no options and has to say these things it means nothing.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 33, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17364 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 32): I simply disagree with you. Republic has no options and has to say these things it means nothing.
Republic has three options, which have all been defined by BB. It has four, if you count the dissolution of Frontier.
The question then comes, why are they going through this? If, as you claim, it cannot be done, then why bother?
Certainly, TPG thinks it is worth the bother. BB thinks it is worth the bother. Silent Siegel thinks it is worth the bother.
The RJET Board thinks is worth the bother, else it would have pulled the plug.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 32): Republic wanted a merged Frontier with two hubs and to make it a competive airline HQ in MKE so they could be a part they had a vision not just a place to throw some spare cash and a good opportunity like oaktree or Soros. For whatever reason that has totally failed and its back to Frontier.
That was then. This is now.
In about April 2011, Republic changed the strategy. The one thing they knew, in the darkest days of Q1 2011, the time of the $70 million loss, was that the mainline fleet, the Airbus fleet, at DEN, was operating profitably.
This is the basis of the whole thing and this is what led to the FAPA agreement.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 32): Republic surely would take back the purchase and have never bought Midwest/Frontier if they could dont you think?
Probably, at least in the case of Midwest. Maybe Frontier. But - they did.
Life - and especially business - is about what is, not what might have been.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 32): I bet they have zero options at this point so they have to make it look as good as possible and hope for an IPO down the road to get some of its cash back and reduce its ownership. No one would purchase the airline right now and no one would buy the IPO right now lets be serious. Frontier IPO would be a total failure right now. Republic has to say this and act this way. I also cant see anyone buying them or wanting to buy 30% or anything like that. It has alot to proove im afraid for people to want to invest in them.
You keep saying "right now" and I agree - because they're not doing it "right now."
Using the FAPA agreement as the template - and everything that is happening is based on that - Republic has until about 2Q 2014 to become the minority investor.
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 538 posts, RR: 1 Reply 34, posted (7 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 17145 times:
DGS is ground servicing F9 at SBN. As far as loads go, SBN is doing good and better these two home football weekends.
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4737 posts, RR: 30 Reply 35, posted (7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 16929 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 20): Even best case lets say frontier is continuously profitable its still unstable and vulnerable no one is gonna throw mega bucks for it will they?
I have to laugh at that statement. If Frontier is continuously profitable, the airline is more stable, and less vulnerable. And yes, investors throw mega bucks at a continuously profitable airline. Is that not what an airline is supposed to do? I would much rather invest into a Frontier that is profitable. That just makes investment sense.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 37, posted (7 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16469 times:
Several people have asked me what I think Frontier will look like after the restructure, and I think it will be reasonably close to what we see now.
At some point the airline will stabilize, but we're not there yet. This is mostly because of the fleet reorganisation. Since the separated Frontier will be an all-Airbus airline, I assume the remaining E190's will go and since the planned A320's aren't coming in on a one-for-one basis, there could still be some downsizing. I am told there is an "assumed" arrival of 1 x A320 in January, but I don't know if that's carved in granite yet.
The departure of the remaining E190's could cause some rethinking and while Frontier seems committed to routes like OMA/MSN-DCA (although I don't think there's been a nod from the DOT yet) - would they go A319?
The other unknown is the price of oil, which, like the Kiwi dollar, is at unreasonable highs. Should it go higher again that could change things.
Otherwise, DEN will still be principal hub, perhaps slightly differently structured from what it is now. Generally, I think that if a route is still flying in Q1 2013, it is probably "safe" but there are a couple of exceptions. If Southwest does start DEN-DSM, I'd hope Frontier will get its butt off the route - it can support one carrier, I don't see that it can support two.
MDT did so well I assume will come back but it isn't scheduled yet, so I can't know for sure and BLI had good loads but I don't know what yield was like and I don't know how price sensitive it was. This was the core problem at PVU. Locals may have loved it, but if fares were a few bucks lower at SLC, guess where they flew. And - if they are tight on aircraft - TYS becomes a question mark for me.
There have been guesses here that ATL may go and that caused some hearts to flutter. I haven't heard anything about it going, but I'd love to see a "Georgia strategy" not just ATL and Southwest did fine for decades without ATL - as has JetBlue.
There are no sacred cows.
A few chums got very optimistic about the word "robust" for bookings at TTN (everybody wants to run an airline) and several thought it could function as a northeast focus city.
Yeh, well - maybe.
Robust bookings don't mean that every flight will be full, at least in the early days, and while I have high hopes for TTN, it hasn't happened yet. Nor do I know how the Nimbys would react to expanded service - they seem to be schizophrenic - yes, they want successful service - but not too much and not at certain times of the day.
The suggestion was made to me that TTN could be a way back into BOS - DEN-TTN-BOS - and again - maybe. But at least three airlines have tried TTN to Mass - two of them to BED - and none of them are still flying the route, or even still flying as branded. I'm told Eastwind had good loads back in the day, but that was such a woefully managed airline I don't know if that's enough, and anyway, things may have changed since then..
And so I do wonder if Frontier is thinking about potential (eastern) leisure destinations, not from DEN - BUF or MYR - but I don't know.
There are obviously question marks over the other new MCO routes, but I think they stand ready to nurse at least a couple of them and that's what revenue guarantees are for.
GSO is quite interesting to me, because I remembered that Continental Lite had a hublet/focus city there, and Silent Siegel was instrumental in shutting down Lite in favor of CO Express. But I guess that means he knows the city and, in a sense, he's back on familiar ground. On a light note, I'm not suggesting GSO-TTN (although it isn't a bad idea) because everyone would greet that with cries of Eastwind Redux.
Silent Siegel's most familiar ground is, of course, "the east," and this represents a big change in Frontier thinking. "The east" has considerable problems, a lot of airlines duking it out, but there are still some very good opportunities.
I know people don't like change, or are nervous of it, especially change at the level we're seeing, but I'm having a really good time, because I'm watching changes at Frontier that I've yearned for some years to see.
dbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 792 posts, RR: 1 Reply 38, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 16353 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 37): Otherwise, DEN will still be principal hub, perhaps slightly differently structured from what it is now. Generally, I think that if a route is still flying in Q1 2013, it is probably "safe" but there are a couple of exceptions. If Southwest does start DEN-DSM, I'd hope Frontier will get its butt off the route - it can support one carrier, I don't see that it can support two.
Are you forgetting UA? They fly DSM-DEN as well..with mainline.
BluYonder From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 14 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16280 times:
Perhaps a sign of things to come, F9 is pulling out of TYS-MCO effective 1/6/13. It competed with G4 service to SFB.
Strange F9 couldn't compete and make this work when FL was in this market for years. If the F9 brand won't fly in TYS when the FL brand seamingly did, it begs the question might F9 experience similar results in markets that G4 & F9 compete in to Orlando such as ABE, MDT, BLI, GSO? Will certainly be fun to watch!
Scoreboard:
G4 - 1, F9 - 0
[Edited 2012-10-17 07:42:46]
ADDITIONALLY:
F9's seasonal DSM-MCO appears to not be coming back this Winter either. So...G4-2, F9-0
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 40, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16212 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 37): Silent Siegel's most familiar ground is, of course, "the east,"
I still think a few good routes would involve PHF; PHF-DCA-PHF perhaps as a gateway of sorts to the Tidewater area of Virgina. Maybe YX/Republic would fly it for F9
In addition to the tourism dollar the military travel dollar should be considered for no other reason than nobody else flies PHF-DCA non-stop. To connect through PHL and CLT is a huge waste of time even where US flies ORF-DCA non-stop and through CLT US wants $341.00 for ORH-DCA 21 days out.
For clarity Republic still carries the YX designator as Midwest Express in the RITA T-100 in the 2012 data tables I suspect it should be RP which may be certificate driven.
As a follow-on F9 received a supplemental or staggered GSA city pair award for connecting service between PHF-SAN. I don't recall seeing it when the awards where announced in July. they also were awarded PHF-COS via DEN. There was some uncertainty because PHF-DEN was flown less than daily.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 43, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16099 times:
Quoting BluYonder (Reply 39): F9 is pulling out of TYS-MCO effective 1/6/13
Are we sure this is not a seasonal reduction? seen in the OAG thread EF9 MCO-TYS JAN 0.3>0.1
I read it as a reduction from 2-3 flights a week to once a week. Mouse central and the greater Orlando area does slow down some in January and February
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
BluYonder From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 14 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16079 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 43): Are we sure this is not a seasonal reduction? seen in the OAG thread EF9 MCO-TYS JAN 0.3>0.1
I read it as a reduction from 2-3 flights a week to once a week. Mouse central and the greater Orlando area does slow down some in January and February
It's toast, never comes back thru May 15th published schedule.
iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4098 posts, RR: 7 Reply 45, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16084 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1): I understand you like F9 but why do we need this thread anymore? We should do what we do with every other airline and have a thread for a specific topic. It makes it more organized and gives each topic a common ground. I think this chain thread should be closed for good.
This is an aviation discussion forum so I"m not sure why it should be closed for good. Feel free to start your own thread on another airline if you want to? Personally i think it would be nice to have a thread on each airline (as needed) and even major airports or whole states as has been done with some threads.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 43): Are we sure this is not a seasonal reduction? seen in the OAG thread EF9 MCO-TYS JAN 0.3>0.1
I read it as a reduction from 2-3 flights a week to once a week. Mouse central and the greater Orlando area does slow down some in January and February
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 47, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15909 times:
If Frontier were a less volatile airline, we'd probably see less discussions about it here. But Frontier is still searching for its niche in the industry, and in a nutshell that is why these discussions continue.
"New Orleans says no to regional airline hub proposal
Baton Rouge businessman John Miller says the city of New Orleans' rejection of a proposal to create a new low-fare airline hub at Louis Armstrong International Airport isn't deterring his investor group, M7 Capital, from pushing ahead with the idea.
"Oh no, not at all," Miller says, when asked if New Orleans' most recent rejection of the idea deals a deathblow to the proposal."
It also seems that Mr. Miller hasn't been entirely honest. He gave at least the strong impression that his backers - M7 Capital - would be financing the eventual deal.
But now it seems that all M7 Capital is backing is the development of the proposal:
"Miller says M7 Capital would not be included in the group of purchasing investors, and that it would not have an executive stake in the airline after it was purchased.
"M7 Capital is only the facilitator of the developer of the business model," he explains. "M7 Capital would not be controlling the deal or have an executive role in the airline."
sideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1 Reply 49, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 15850 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 40): For clarity Republic still carries the YX designator as Midwest Express in the RITA T-100 in the 2012 data tables I suspect it should be RP which may be certificate driven.
Republic Airlines took the YX code when Republic Airways bought Midwest and have been using it ever since. It used to be RW but that went away within a couple months of the purchase. Don't really know why they did that but I'm sure there was a reason for it.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 51, posted (7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15082 times:
Remember that BB did a stunt on Undercover Boss? Well..... This isn't F9's first time being in the spotlight on national TV. I found this gem on YouTube called Flight Attendant School. I am not sure which channel this was on, I am assuming it was on either Discovery or A&E. It is only showcasing one class in 18 episodes.
I know only two people personally from this series today, but I have seen more of the graduates around DEN from this class on Concourse A.
For those who have no idea who Pam Gardner was, she's in all of these episodes. The auditorium at the GO was named after her to this day. She passed away in 2006, IIRC.....
Enjoy!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
type-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4352 posts, RR: 20 Reply 52, posted (7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 15063 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 51): For those who have no idea who Pam Gardner was, she's in all of these episodes. The auditorium at the GO was named after her to this day. She passed away in 2006, IIRC.....
And a few of the people in that class that was in that show are a.net members!
I saw Pam working a Frontier flight I was on (IAH-DEN) back around the time of the show. Even though she was nice she had kind of a "definitely a woman in charge" kind of presence. I have heard that her husband flew for UA and she had some sort of roots here in Houston. I think her husband may have lived here.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
I thoroughly enjoy these threads and cast my vote to keep them running in this format..i read them all and its easy to keep up to date on F9 this way.. there wouldnt be thousands of responses and 39 seperate additions if it wasnt liked by the community. I say the naysayer is alone in his indictment
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 55, posted (7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 15008 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 53): "Frontier Soars to New Level of Social Media Management with Sprinklr"
Here is what I don't get.... F9 is going haywire on social media, yet they still don't have an app for iPhone nor for the Android.
I think it's way damn long overdue for an app, me thinks. They're doing their customers a disservice and also being wayyyyyyyy behind on this in my opinion. Every other major airline has an app.....
F9 seems to be to jiggy with social media, they LOVE Twitter to death......and most of their contests are on Twitter and they advertise that on Facebook. Not everyone has Twitter.
Time for F9 to get on with the program here.......
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 57, posted (7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14979 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 56): many people have voiced their concerns over the 39 threads.
I find that pretty difficult to believe. If so many members objected to these F9 threads, we wouldn't have gotten this far with #39.
Being on the 39th thread speaks volumes. Frontier is the little engine that could, that would never die. Frontier is a very interesting and amazing airline, IMO. It amazes me what they're doing nowadays, which is newsworthy on CivAv.
If the mods felt that the F9 threads were too much and an annoyance, then these threads would have been stopped long ago.
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 56): Even so, this has been resolved for over a week.
Doesn't seem to be as this thread is still very much alive.....and counting.
If you don't like certain threads on A.net, then don't respond to it. Simple as that. It's not that difficult to ignore threads.
[Edited 2012-10-23 17:07:52]
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 58, posted (7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 14925 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 57): Doesn't seem to be as this thread is still very much alive.....and counting.
I said it was resolved. I asked what people thought and they said they liked it. Its resolved. Its not ending.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 57): I find that pretty difficult to believe. If so many members objected to these F9 threads, we wouldn't have gotten this far with #39.
I didn't say majority I just said many. Was many a slight overstatement, yeah. A few people is more like it. None the less, the point of me saying that was to show I am not the only one.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 57): If you don't like certain threads on A.net,
Its not that I don't like it. I prefer to have threads on specific topics. Thats all. Whatever. I wanted to see what people thought and they like it. It doesn't affect me either way. I'll continue to post when I find the opportunity to.
Out of all this. My main point was just to tell NWADTWE16 that this has been resolved already, he didn't have to comment on it a week later. Whatever, lets get this thread back to F9!
NWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 14844 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 58): Out of all this. My main point was just to tell NWADTWE16 that this has been resolved already, he didn't have to comment on it a week later. Whatever, lets get this thread back to F9!
i commented today because i was catching up on the thread and reacted to your statement before finishing the rest of the posts...its what i wouldve said at the time...regardless, all is well
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 61, posted (7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 14823 times:
Quoting freakyrat (Reply 59): A tech savvy airline like Virgin America doesn't have an App either. App's are a full time job just to update them and keep them running right.
Except, VX hasn't been around as long as F9 has. Plus, with so much attention that F9 devotes on Facebook and Twitter, they can manage to run an app just fine.
Well, the way you came off complaining about the thread earlier seems like you don't like these types of threads, but now you do a complete 180...... Huh?! I dunno man.... You're confusing.
[Edited 2012-10-23 20:09:28]
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 62, posted (7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14620 times:
While not F9 related, WN is ending DEN-BUR with their latest schedule extension. While that doesn't mean anything for F9, it is the 1st DEN route WN has cut.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 63, posted (7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14535 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 62): While not F9 related, WN is ending DEN-BUR with their latest schedule extension. While that doesn't mean anything for F9, it is the 1st DEN route WN has cut.
And I missed this announcement a month ago, but Allegiant has "suspended" COS-AZA.
"Allegiant Air suspends Colorado Springs-Phoenix flights"
It's said to be going seasonal, but no date is given for the return and although it still appears on the Allegiant route map, it doesn't appear as a choice in the booking engine.
I assume it may have at least some effect on Frontier's COS-PHX?
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4721 posts, RR: 15 Reply 64, posted (7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14470 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 63): I assume it may have at least some effect on Frontier's COS-PHX?
Which, according to the last to OAG threads, IS being reduced next year. If both cx are trimming the route, well, it might confirm that the traffic may not be there as hoped or expected.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 65, posted (7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14456 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 64): Which, according to the last to OAG threads, IS being reduced next year. If both cx are trimming the route, well, it might confirm that the traffic may not be there as hoped or expected.
That may well be true of some flights, but I never know how to read those OAG threads, at least for five or six months out. Frontier extended the booking period, showing the minimum it intended to fly - so folk could book 'em.
But I know of flights which are coming back in early spring but are not yet scheduled, and thus are not in the OAG or the thread.
Yes, COS-PHX is being trimmed some, but it seems to be variable and this cutting of weaker days (Tues/Wed e.g.) is happening more and more under Silent Siegel, especially in winter. I seriously doubt that COS-LAX (say) would do the same business in midwinter that it does in midsummer.
intheair10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 66, posted (7 months 15 hours ago) and read 14304 times:
It's officially not a rumor anymore. 5 190s going to Caesars.
Republic Airways, Caesars Entertainment Sign Three-Year Flight Agreement
INDIANAPOLIS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--
Republic Airways Holdings Inc. (RJET) and Caesars Entertainment Corporation (CZR) today signed a three-year contract under which Republic’s Republic Airlines subsidiary will operate five Embraer E190 aircraft to provide more than 1,500 flights annually for Caesars’ customers throughout the United States.
“We are very pleased to have been selected by Caesars to fulfill a portion of their dedicated air travel needs for the coming three years,” said Republic Airways Chairman and CEO Bryan Bedford. “We very much look forward to providing a high quality, safe and reliable service to their properties starting in January 2013.”
“We are excited about this agreement that will offer our customers convenient, comfortable flights from their nearby local airports on newer, more fuel-efficient aircraft operated by a carrier with a sterling safety record,” said R. Scott Barber, regional president and head of travel-management services for Caesars Entertainment.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 67, posted (7 months 8 hours ago) and read 14112 times:
Quoting intheair10 (Reply 66): It's officially not a rumor anymore. 5 190s going to Caesars.
Republic Airways, Caesars Entertainment Sign Three-Year Flight Agreement
INDIANAPOLIS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--
Republic Airways Holdings Inc. (RJET) and Caesars Entertainment Corporation (CZR) today signed a three-year contract under which Republic’s Republic Airlines subsidiary will operate five Embraer E190 aircraft to provide more than 1,500 flights annually for Caesars’ customers throughout the United States.
“We are very pleased to have been selected by Caesars to fulfill a portion of their dedicated air travel needs for the coming three years,” said Republic Airways Chairman and CEO Bryan Bedford. “We very much look forward to providing a high quality, safe and reliable service to their properties starting in January 2013.”
“We are excited about this agreement that will offer our customers convenient, comfortable flights from their nearby local airports on newer, more fuel-efficient aircraft operated by a carrier with a sterling safety record,” said R. Scott Barber, regional president and head of travel-management services for Caesars Entertainment.
So by January 10 E190s and the last remaining ERJ will go. Republic has already leased out some of its slots, so it looks like operationally, 3 DCA slots and 5 E190s are all that remain.
I'm curious as to what the summer schedule will look like. They started a lot of new cities with the E190 so it'll be interesting to see how many are upgraded/won't return.
NWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (7 months 7 hours ago) and read 14065 times:
What is it about the E190 that makes it not profitable? I love that aircraft and without knowing specifics i would imagine it would be perfect for an airline like F9
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 69, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13922 times:
My armchair thoughts lean on the side of operating a single family of aircraft in a ULCC model. As best I can tell ULCC remains a undefined term outside of the airlines. Until the feds define it I suppose it can be what the carrier wants with Ultra being the keyword. Possibly fuel burn where 99 seats stack up against the Airbus.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
mikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12 Reply 70, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13921 times:
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 68): What is it about the E190 that makes it not profitable? I love that aircraft and without knowing specifics i would imagine it would be perfect for an airline like F9
Only 99 seats has too high of a CASM for a low fare carrier like Frontier. I agree it is a great plane from a customer perspective, but even JetBlue has cut back on its outlook of the E90s.
bahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1727 posts, RR: 12 Reply 71, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13812 times:
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 68): What is it about the E190 that makes it not profitable? I love that aircraft and without knowing specifics i would imagine it would be perfect for an airline like F9
This is just my speculation on this.. 190s burn about 2200 lbs/hr/engine on the normal cruise. RAH management decided to operate them with 99 seats , the airplane is certified all the way up to 118.
A319 burns about 2600 lbs/hr/side at cruise.. So you are getting about 800 lbs / h more compared to the E190. The fact that you can put 39 more seats in A319 and the cockpit/fleet/parts commonality makes the decision much more favorible for all Airbus fleet.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 72, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13780 times:
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 68): What is it about the E190 that makes it not profitable? I love that aircraft and without knowing specifics i would imagine it would be perfect for an airline like F9
It is a difficult aircraft in a low fare situation.
In Republic's fleet survey last year, using Frontiers generally low fares as the average (and oil about $10 a barrel more than now), the A320 came out as the most economically effective aircraft, with a BELF - break even load factor - of about 80%. The A319 was a few points above that.
The E190 came in with a BELF of about 95%.
They work better for JetBlue because that airline generally has better yield (but even so, it is not taking all it originally ordered) and they work best for a legacy airline, even as contract flying.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 73, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 13628 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 67): Republic has already leased out some of its slots, so it looks like operationally, 3 DCA slots and 5 E190s are all that remain.
Actually starting Sunday. DCA will be down to 6 daily departures and that is what it is currently scheduled to stay at through the entire schedule. LGA as of tomorrow is down to just 2 dailies to DEN and that is currently through the whole schedule.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 74, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 13634 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 67): They started a lot of new cities with the E190 so it'll be interesting to see how many are upgraded/won't return.
BIL, BIS, BZN, BMI, CID and SBA go to A319 in January so I can't think of too many DEN E190 routes left except MOT, DRO and DEN-COS - at least for now. I don't know what happens if BB can find a home for the remaining E190's.
There are also the three within perimeter DCA routes - MSN, OMA and MCI are all E190. They are Republic slots, of course, not Frontier, and I don't know what will happen with those with separation.
They're obviously worth money to Republic, and I don't know if it would just gift them to Frontier, or if Republic would do a deal.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 77, posted (6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 13385 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 75): IYHO, how much cash would it take for RAH to sell F9 outright to a buyer?
For RAH to come out "clean"? Whatever you think is a fair number and then add $150 million to that.
The point of the exercise is not necessarily to "sell" Frontier, except in the most general sense. The point of the exercise is to "separate" Frontier, by whatever means gives the best return to RJET shareholders.
My guess - based on what BB has said - is that they will bring in an investor (a "buyer") for part of the shareholding and then offer another part of the shareholding to RJET shareholders.
So I could see the eventual structure as (about) one third investor, (about) one third RJET share-holderrs and (about) one third RAH - with bits of various holdings (5%?) shaved off to the pilots and f/a's.
Or any percentage variation of the above.
But they're paying Barclays a whole more than they're paying me - which is three tenths of a big fat nothing - and Barclays is a lot smarter at this than I am, so they may have other ideas.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 79, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12804 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 78): But currently I could buy all of RAH on the open market for $228M (providing 51% is on the market) and then sell/spin off the parts I don't want.
Sure, you could do that, too.
I'm not sure why you would and it comes back to BB's point when the separation was announced. - no one wanted Frontier in bankruptcy, why should now be different?
That's the reason for the restructure, it;s why Silent Siegel is CEO, to make it a viable standalone.
For the quarter ended September 30, 2012, Frontier posted pre-tax income of $29.8 million compared to a pre-tax loss of $1.5 million for the quarter ended September 30, 2011. The significant improvement in Frontier’s financial results was driven by solid unit revenue increases and lower unit costs as a result of the network and financial restructuring completed in 2011."
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1991 posts, RR: 3 Reply 81, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 12610 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 74): BIL, BIS, BZN, BMI, CID and SBA go to A319 in January so I can't think of too many DEN E190 routes left except MOT, DRO and DEN-COS - at least for now. I don't know what happens if BB can find a home for the remaining E190's. There are also the three within perimeter DCA routes - MSN, OMA and MCI are all E190. They are Republic slots, of course, not Frontier, and I don't know what will happen with those with separation. They're obviously worth money to Republic, and I don't know if it would just gift them to Frontier, or if Republic would do a deal.mariner[Edited 2012-10-26 15:25:28]
sweet! happy to see my hometown CID and others getting mainline service!
NWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12555 times:
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4737 posts, RR: 30 Reply 83, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12481 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 79): no one wanted Frontier in bankruptcy, why should now be different?
For the quarter ended September 30, 2012, Frontier posted pre-tax income of $29.8 million compared to a pre-tax loss of $1.5 million for the quarter ended September 30, 2011. The significant improvement in Frontier’s financial results was driven by solid unit revenue increases and lower unit costs as a result of the network and financial restructuring completed in 2011."
A profitable F9 is attractive to any airline or buyer. F9 has done a remarkable job of turning this airline around. I think Spirit generated nearly the same profit. I think the ULCC model is working for F9.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 84, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 12213 times:
Quoting F9animal (Reply 83): A profitable F9 is attractive to any airline or buyer. F9 has done a remarkable job of turning this airline around.
$29 million is a very good number, F9Animal. I had my fingers crossed fro $20 million, but expected slightly less.
Together with the Q2 profit of $14 million - and taking out the Q1 loss of $20 million - it means Frontier is profitable for the year to date, at about $23 million.
So when Silent Siegel suggested this would be Frontier's first full year profit in ten years, he was probably on the money.
Obviously, there's still a question mark over Q4, but the next big hurdle is Q1 2013 - Q1 is always Frontier's weakest. If Frontier can make money then (anything better than break even) it means four consecutive quarters of profit, from which all goodies flow.
Kcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3629 posts, RR: 7 Reply 86, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12020 times:
Quoting nkops (Reply 85): It'll be nice to see the E-190's in ACY... kind of tired of Airbuses!!!
I am assuming the 190's will be in Republic livery.. whatever that is
When's that start? They'll probably be painted however they are now.
NWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 88, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11898 times:
Maybe people will finally stop getting their rocks by predicting F9 demise for a minute =)
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 89, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11916 times:
Atlantic City has significant flooding damage caused by Hurricane Sandy which came ashore on the Jersey coast; north of the city. lets hope it does not deter casino visitors.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 90, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11869 times:
For any Frontier watcher, the conference call was a bit of a fizz. Neither Silent Siehgel nor DS were there, Greg Aretakis took the honors.
BB rightly expressed pride in the financial turnaround at Frontier and everyone made goo-goo noises, but the few questions from the analysts were about trying to pin BB to the wall on the date of separation, and how.
Beyond saying that it would likely be in the first half of next year, BB wouldn't be drawn on how it would happen, but he clearly leaned towards the idea of a private investor(s). He did throw in one wrinkle - that they might go straight to the public with it, with an IPO. It was almost off-hand, an after-thought (and I think its unlikely in the first instance), but it was said, so - who knows.
He flitted briefly through the fleet situation - the E190's will be down to four, he said (I thought it was five), and he talked about the A319's that are leaving, saying they are "exploring options" to replace them with "bigger Airbus aircraft." Not much new there.
Most of the analysts seemed to take separation as a done deal, and wanted to discuss the future of Republic fixed fee - without Frontier - which got quite complicated for a while.
The point was made with regard to profit guidance that they couldn't give any now, because they don't yet know the cost of Hurricane Sandy, which hit Republic quite hard because of the concentration on the east coast.
I assume Sandy had an effect on Frontier, too, but a very much smaller one and they did indicate that they expected Frontier to be Q4 profitable, if not a lot.
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4737 posts, RR: 30 Reply 91, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11823 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 84): $29 million is a very good number, F9Animal. I had my fingers crossed fro $20 million, but expected slightly less.
Together with the Q2 profit of $14 million - and taking out the Q1 loss of $20 million - it means Frontier is profitable for the year to date, at about $23 million.
So when Silent Siegel suggested this would be Frontier's first full year profit in ten years, he was probably on the money.
Obviously, there's still a question mark over Q4, but the next big hurdle is Q1 2013 - Q1 is always Frontier's weakest. If Frontier can make money then (anything better than break even) it means four consecutive quarters of profit, from which all goodies flow.
mariner
This airline has proven that it can make profits, and can be a valuable player in this industry. What I like about it is that flight planning is now proactive, and reactive when it needs to be. This is much different than the days when F9 would just wait it out to see if things got better between markets. I see many G4 and Spirit commonalities in how F9 approaches markets now, and how they leave markets. Whatever works, is what I like to see! Very big congrats to the employees of this great little airline! And yes, BB does deserve a pat on the back for turning this airline around.
Yea, we got hit pretty good... I don't think people will be detered, but it will take some time to get the crowds back.. right now, the city is still closed and all our charter flights have been cancelled UFN. Hopefully, the city will get back on its feet soon.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 93, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11499 times:
For what it's worth, COS-PDX has been removed from the F9 route map. Not too surprising
But no - it is all about Frontier at GTF - Great Falls - and their hope for resumption of service next summer:
"Preliminary statistics indicate that adding low cost Frontier Airline flights this summer greatly increased passenger use from Midwest cities and lowered overall fares, Great Falls Airport Director John Faulkner said Tuesday.
But the airport and its business backers might have to do an even better job of filling planes if Frontier returns next summer, he told the Great Falls Airport Authority, because Frontier confirmed it’s converting to a full fleet of larger, 138-passenger Airbus jets."
They clearly understand the problem and have increased the marketing money for the service next year and spreading their marketing wings into Canada:
"Faulkner said he’s already marketing to boost use of the Great Falls airport. Starting Sunday, the Great Falls airport will advertise its cheap air fares and parking rates each week in Lethbridge’s newspaper, hoping to persuade more Albertans to fly out of Great Falls rather than Calgary."
I hope it works out. There are some others, though. I'm assuming DEN-MDT will come back and I know that it is (presently) planned that DEN-TYS will.
But I'd love to see the fleet issues resolved because when that happens we could be looking at stabilisation.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 95, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11308 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 94): and I know that it is (presently) planned that DEN-TYS will.
I'm not so sure that it will return. If MCO-TYS is also set to end in early January, it may make sense that they just don't reopen the station.
azstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 541 posts, RR: 0 Reply 97, posted (6 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11145 times:
Quoting F9animal (Reply 91):
This airline has proven that it can make profits
I suspect much, if not all, of this profit comes from flying Apple Vacation charters. I think F9's future may be in charter flights rather than hit & miss scheduled flying where they just can't seem to compete very well.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 98, posted (6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 11108 times:
Quoting azstar (Reply 97): I suspect much, if not all, of this profit comes from flying Apple Vacation charters. I think F9's future may be in charter flights rather than hit & miss scheduled flying where they just can't seem to compete very well.
There isn't a lot of Apple flying in Q3, the summer.
As has been posted a few times, here and in filings, last winter, first winter, the Apple contract was worth about $3 (after costs) to Frontier.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 99, posted (6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11025 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 96): This route needed cx traffic to make it. There are very few O&D routes out of COS.
I had posted the Load factors for both SEA and PDX from COS and both were in the low 80s, which is about 10pts lower than the F9 average. Considering that they extended SEA until November, I imagine they were getting higher fares on that route compared to PDX.
mikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12 Reply 100, posted (6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10917 times:
Quoting azstar (Reply 97): I suspect much, if not all, of this profit comes from flying Apple Vacation charters. I think F9's future may be in charter flights rather than hit & miss scheduled flying where they just can't seem to compete very well.
The Q3 revenue shows $35.3 million from charters and $409.1 million from passenger flights. They don't break out profit numbers, but the charter side is not a huge portion of the business, at least not in Q3.
PlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 530 posts, RR: 1 Reply 101, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10775 times:
Flight Global has a piece where BB is "cautisouly optimistic" that some sort of a transaction can be completed in the 1st Q of 2013.
Republic's chief executive Bryan Bedford says in an earnings call today that the company has made "significant progress" in its effort to spin off Frontier, and is "cautiously optimistic" that it will resolve the Frontier sale early next year.
In the scenario of an industry event that could affect the sale, Republic will embark on an initial public offering (IPO) for Frontier, an option that it previously said it was considering, says Bedford.
Frontier is in the process of becoming an ultra low-cost carrier, like Allegiant Air and Spirit Airlines.
Earning money makes all things easier. Clearly a detioration in the economy of F9 would change that outlook. Personally, if F9 becomes less of a scheduled airline that will make it harder for me to fly them, but I want to see them suceed regardless.
Stapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 270 posts, RR: 2 Reply 102, posted (6 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10587 times:
Is Frontier pulling out of Billings, Montana? I was booking a flight and the calendar said that service between Billings and Denver is discontinued after January 22nd. I hadn't seen anything about them pulling out of Billings.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 103, posted (6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10588 times:
Quoting Stapleton (Reply 102): Is Frontier pulling out of Billings, Montana? I was booking a flight and the calendar said that service between Billings and Denver is discontinued after January 22nd. I hadn't seen anything about them pulling out of Billings.
The leaving E190's, I guess. Tough to think it could support the A319 at least in winter.
However, Frontier is starting winter seasonal service to Jackson Hole - JAC - in February:
Frontier Airlines today announced it will expand on its existing annual summer seasonal nonstop service between Denver, Colo. (DEN) and Jackson Hole, Wyo. (JAC) with the addition of winter season flying beginning Feb. 13, 2013. The Denver-based carrier will operate two weekly flights through April 7, 2013. Frontier’s summer season service in Jackson Hole will resume May 2013. Fares as low as $99* each way are available only at FlyFrontier.com through Nov. 18, 2012."
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 104, posted (6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10569 times:
The Denver Post has an interesting article about Frontier with a status update about their restructuring and spinoff efforts. In particular, some comments from Mike Boyd and David Siegel. Some kind of a deal could be made in early 2013 if everything goes as planned. Basically, their future centers around Denver because that's the only place that works for them. Simply moving the hub to a less competitive airport is not a viable option. "It's either shut it down or fight it out here," according to Boyd. In this case I tend to agree with him.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 105, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10513 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 104): Basically, their future centers around Denver because that's the only place that works for them.
I'm on the proverbial teeter-totter about this. I find it hard to believe no other city would be viable for F9. Just because Mike Boyd says it; doesn't make it so. With F9 operating as a ULCC it would have to be a medium to large metropolis located mid-continent where WN offers limited service. OMA or OKC comes to mind.
On the aviation side of the equation OKC is where most to all air traffic controllers are trained at the FAA training center/academy there.
Although DEN has a lot in the pro column it also has some in the con. At 20 plus miles miles from the downtown city center and business district. I think the current airport is to far when compared to Stapleton. In my mind the city should have demolished the Stapleton facilities and started over with a blank piece of canvass.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 106, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10513 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 105): I'm on the proverbial teeter-totter about this. I find it hard to believe no other city would be viable for F9. Just because Mike Boyd says it; doesn't make it so. With F9 operating as a ULCC it would have to be a medium to large metropolis located mid-continent where WN offers limited service. OMA or OKC comes to mind.
On the aviation side of the equation OKC is where most to all air traffic controllers are trained at the FAA training center/academy there.
Although DEN has a lot in the pro column it also has some in the con. At 20 plus miles miles from the downtown city center and business district. I think the current airport is to far when compared to Stapleton. In my mind the city should have demolished the Stapleton facilities and started over with a blank piece of canvass.
I agree that in theory, other cities can be viable for F9 besides DEN. But in practice, when they've tried it in the past, it hasn't worked out. The jury is still out on MCO and COS. I will say that the vacation destinations in Mexico and Latin America seem to have been enormously successful for F9. They were fortunate enough to get on the bandwagon with this before WN, because now they have the advantage of being the more established carrier in these places.
As for Mike Boyd, I don't agree with everything he says, and I dislike how arrogant he comes across sometimes, but when it comes to the airline industry, he does get a lot right.
As for DIA/Stapleton, I don't think Stapleton could ever be to Denver what DIA has become today. Even though it is far out from the city center, DIA has proven its worth. Boyd was also a major critic of DIA, and this is the biggest disagreement I have with him. I don't know how viable simply tearing down the old Stapleton terminal and rebuilding would have been. You also have to remember that the airport serves a much larger catchment area (all up and down the Front Range) besides Denver proper. In 2016, the Light Rail line should be ready between downtown and the airport. That should help too.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 107, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10518 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 105): With F9 operating as a ULCC it would have to be a medium to large metropolis located mid-continent where WN offers limited service. OMA or OKC comes to mind.
They tried OMA and it failed. F9 can only succeed (barely) in DEN.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 108, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10510 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 106): You also have to remember that the airport serves a much larger catchment area
Yes I was thinking about the folks out toward Limon, Colorado and those who reside in western Kansas on the I-70 corridor. The last time I drove out there there wasn't a lot out there.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 105): In 2016, the Light Rail line should be ready between downtown and the airport. That should help too.
From a visitors perspective I've used Denver's transit system on a business trip; street car/trolley's as I recall within the downtown area. A rapid light rail express to DEN will indeed help.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 109, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10513 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 106): But in practice, when they've tried it in the past, it hasn't worked out. The jury is still out on MCO and COS.
They are cutting back frequency on COS already.
MCO will work for the non-legacy carrier with the lowest cost and/or the best tour packaging. F9 is in pretty good shape in the first category. The margins are pretty thin, however. I doubt there's more than 5 points of profit margin to get without solid packaging.
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 104): "It's either shut it down or fight it out here," according to Boyd. In this case I tend to agree with him.
Boyd also said there are no buyers for F9, but I assume we all knew that.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 111, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10511 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 110): Quoting enilria (Reply 109):
Boyd also said there are no buyers for F9, but I assume we all knew that.
Why anyone would imagine there would be a buyer is beyond my understanding.
An investor? Perhaps.
mariner
I don't see the distinction. Both involve risking your money on F9. I'm not sure why there would be a difference unless we are talking about the pilots investing in their own airline or something like that.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 112, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10522 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 111): I don't see the distinction. Both involve risking your money on F9. I'm not sure why there would be a difference unless we are talking about the pilots investing in their own airline or something like that.
Okay - if you can't see the difference, I can't help you.
I don't understand the fantasy idea that Republic would put a then money losing based at DEN on the market and expect a decent price - or any price.
As Mike Boyd actually said:
"I don't know who wants to buy an airline today ... anybody credible, that is."
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 113, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10491 times:
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 114, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10493 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 112): As Mike Boyd actually said:
"I don't know who wants to buy an airline today ... anybody credible, that is."
He's right.
Quoting mariner (Reply 112): I don't understand the fantasy idea that Republic would put a then money losing based at DEN on the market and expect a decent price - or any price.
Well, talk to BB, not me about that. He's the one selling the airline...or trying to sell any part of the airline.
Supposedly he wants $100 million for F9. That's what people like Boyd will tell you that BB has been shopping it for. Let's say that's true for the sake of this comparison. That's the price of ~3 new A320s, BTW. Not huge money really. Whether you pay $100 million for 100% control or $25 million for 25% control the risk of losing your money is still the same. I'd say the risk is seen as higher investing the $25 million because with a 25% stake you are essentially a passive investor overruled in all cases by RJET.
You always said that you expected somebody to buy 50.1% of F9 and that RJET would retain the rest because it solved some of the pilot issues. Still, same problem. You need somebody with a lot of money who wants to invest in an airline. There's the guy from MSY who wants to fly A319s on SHV-MSY. So, the list of sane candidates is short...
The deal is based on what BB said at the start of this - that whatever happens will be in the best interests of RJET shareholders, and a bargain basement price isn't much value to the RJET shareholders when there are other better options available.
Quoting enilria (Reply 114): Supposedly he wants $100 million for F9. That's what people like Boyd will tell you that BB has been shopping it for.
A number like that (and more) has certainly been bandied about, by both BB and Silent Siegel, but I've only ever heard it in terms of the minimum they are looking for from an investor.
Assuming that there are other participants (and/or a partial spin-off?), that would make sense, because the airline, once separated, has to have a decent capitalisation - some money in the bank. Silent Siegel has said that the separated airline must not be under-captalized.
At the moment, Frontier has no money in the bank, no cash reserves, only working capital and thus, despite the profit, it is still cash negative.
Quoting enilria (Reply 114): You always said that you expected somebody to buy 50.1% of F9 and that RJET would retain the rest because it solved some of the pilot issues.
No, I've actually said it the other way around. I've never known what the eventual percentages will be, other than that - if RJET stays in - it ail be as a minority investor, less than 49.9% and arguably much less.
I would not fall over in shock if some of the Republic BOD now think they should keep the airline - Frontier is the reason RJET was profitable in Q3.
I doubt that will happen, but I don't know and certainly the new (Barclays?) option of going straight to IPO adds a a further complexity, and is only possible if they have at least one major investor, and preferably a couple.
I suggest that no one knows what the financial structure will be and - for myself - I think there is not a lot of point in trying to guess because they're playing their cards so close to their chest.
For example, I think the role of TPG in this is "unclear." TPG has organised for Silent Siegel to be at Frontier, but whether that is short or long term is unknown to me.
I've always assumed short term, so Siegel's comment in the Denver Post article made me raise my eyebrows.
"Frontier celebrates impressive turnaround but faces challenges in finding long-term suitors"
In terms of this debate about a buyer - as opposed to an investor - the article has this to say:
"Beginning in Nov-2012 Republic is formally commencing the process of meeting with prospective and strategic and financial buyers, “and sharing the vision for what Frontier can become as it continues its transformation into an ultra low-cost carrier”, stated Republic CEO Bryan Bedford."
If that process is just "beginning" it is hard to think they have been looking for a buyer before.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 117, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10486 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 115): The deal is based on what BB said at the start of this - that whatever happens will be in the best interests of RJET shareholders, and a bargain basement price isn't much value to the RJET shareholders when there are other better options available.
Quoting mariner (Reply 115): I would not fall over in shock if some of the Republic BOD now think they should keep the airline
That's what I was going to ask you. I had missed your turn on that. If that happens, remind me what union issues are reopened and how severe they are in your opinion? Hadn't BB claimed (and I disputed) that the union issues were the reason for the sale in the first place?
I think if they went down that path Wall Street would pillory RJET.
Quoting mariner (Reply 115): I doubt that will happen, but I don't know and certainly the new (Barclays?) option of going straight to IPO adds a a further complexity
It won't IPO without two good years of full year fully allocated profits under its belt with a decent margin. I doubt this year will do well enough to encourage that level of interest from IPO investors.
Quoting mariner (Reply 115): At the moment, Frontier has no money in the bank, no cash reserves, only working capital and thus, despite the profit, it is still cash negative.
That's why I was saying that getting the holdback reversed was such a huge deal. If that happens then POOF they have cash to do a spin-off or whatever. They get much more valuable. They were really negative on that on the call. I think that is largely the Catch 22. They need the holdback cash to separate F9 and they are saying the credit cards won't give them a normal holdback until they are separate.
Quoting mariner (Reply 115): For example, I think the role of TPG in this is "unclear." TPG has organised for Silent Siegel to be at Frontier, but whether that is short or long term is unknown to me.
I thought it was very interesting that Siegel said he would not move from DEN if the company was bought. I was not aware he had any ties to Denver?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 118, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10489 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 117): I think if they went down that path Wall Street would pillory RJET.
As I said, I don't think they will go down that path, I don't even know if that push is there - but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.
In Q3 2011, fixed fee was carrying branded. In Q3 2012, branded carried fixed fee.
Quoting enilria (Reply 117): It won't IPO without two good years of full year fully allocated profits under its belt with a decent margin. I doubt this year will do well enough to encourage that level of interest from IPO investors.
I doubt it, too. But it is a new option and has only appeared since Barclays became involved. If - stress "if" - it happens, it suggests that they have a couple of potential investors already on the sidelines.
Wall Street operates looking to the future, unlike a.net which is forced to work with a rear-view mirror.
Quoting enilria (Reply 117): They need the holdback cash to separate F9 and they are saying the credit cards won't give them a normal holdback until they are separate.
I disagree that it is a big deal.
The reason the airline is cash negative is because it has no cash reserves and is not generating yet sufficient cash to meet forward payments. Things that would usually be paid from cash reserves are being paid by Republic.
The A320 Neo order for example, is still a Republic order and Republic is making the progress payments. At some point that will have to be adjusted, and once Frontier is capitalised, iI assume it will be.
Silent Siegel seems gung-ho on the A320 Neo orders, but I am not aware if there is any formal agreement that Frontier will assume all the Neo orders - only an intention.
It is - yet another - unknown.
Quoting enilria (Reply 117): I thought it was very interesting that Siegel said he would not move from DEN if the company was bought. I was not aware he had any ties to Denver?
That's what caught my eye. I don't think he has any ties to Denver, but at least the implication is that he will be with the airline for longer than just as the turnaround guy.
But I don't know, and I may be reading too much into it. Or not.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 119, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10471 times:
Sorry for the rather extended absence. I began flight instructing about a month ago and it has just been tiring me out recently.
In the last couple of days there is some rather interesting news regarding the company.
1. This morning they announced MSY-TTN twice weekly, Mon and Fri, on an A319. This seems a rather interesting route and one I definitely see as a route with a bit of potential. Hopefully it will make the ops at TTN a bit more viable, giving more operations in a week
2. It seems there are two DCA slots up for bid that were previous Spirit. It seems those are in the perimeter slots so if Frontier were to make any sort of play, it wouldn't be DEN (so far as I can tell, that thread became about 5 conversations in the first 5 posts). I dont know that F9 will bid for them, nor if they should, but it is a possibility.
3. As F9 is still part of RJET, I feel the American TA with its pilots hoas some importance here. American will rather quickly be able to ramp up to nearly 350-400 76 seat RJs by 2016 (if approved). It is my opinion this will be split between several carriers. (Skywest group, Trans Startes group, RAH, and Eagle). Should be quite the substantial contracts for all involved.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 120, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10468 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 117): I thought it was very interesting that Siegel said he would not move from DEN if the company was bought. I was not aware he had any ties to Denver?
It might be an attraction to the greater Denver area. During his tenure at CO; I believe under the Gordon Bethune era. Siegel to my recollection spent most if not all of his time Stapleton and less at the CO hubs in IAH or CLE
As dream jobs go; I'd pick Denver over Houston and Cleveland too.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 121, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10466 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 118): Wall Street operates looking to the future,
Unfortunately, usually only one quarter into the future.
Quoting mariner (Reply 118): Quoting enilria (Reply 117):
They need the holdback cash to separate F9 and they are saying the credit cards won't give them a normal holdback until they are separate.
I disagree that it is a big deal.
It's $80-100 million in cash depending upon the season that could appear on their balance sheet. That's as much as the entire airline is worth. I'd call it a big deal.
Quoting mariner (Reply 118): Quoting enilria (Reply 117):
I thought it was very interesting that Siegel said he would not move from DEN if the company was bought. I was not aware he had any ties to Denver?
That's what caught my eye. I don't think he has any ties to Denver, but at least the implication is that he will be with the airline for longer than just as the turnaround guy.
That article made me wonder if they are trying to get Colorado to "invest" in Frontier. It makes no sense to be continually pulling down DEN, while expressing such commitment unless they are playing a political game where they are trying to get govt money. It's been down in other states like South Carolina and the Louisiana deal that's been floated.
Absent the pilots investing their own retirement and the State of Colorado putting in money, are there any other stakeholders that you can see providing investment? It seems like an outside investor is unlikely. I don't see a credit card company doing it. Boeing? Airbus? Any other good theories?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 122, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10487 times:
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 119): 1. This morning they announced MSY-TTN twice weekly, Mon and Fri, on an A319. This seems a rather interesting route and one I definitely see as a route with a bit of potential. Hopefully it will make the ops at TTN a bit more viable, giving more operations in a week
Your wish is granted - not just MSY but FLL, TPA and RSW as well.
"In addition to its previously announced nonstop service to Orlando, Fla. (MCO), Frontier will now provide customers throughout New Jersey and eastern Pennsylvania convenient, low-fare service to Fort Lauderdale, Fla. (FLL); Fort Myers, Fla. (RSW); New Orleans, La. (MSY); and Tampa, Fla. (TPA)."
The Florida part may be predictable. Quite recently, Silent Siegel said that Frontier doesn't do enough north/south flying, the surprise may be TTN.
The interesting thing is they are doubling up the TTN-MCO flights already. We know - because they've said so - that TTN-MCO bookings are "robust" and I guess they have more information about forwards bookings than anyone here.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 123, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10460 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 121): It's $80-100 million in cash depending upon the season that could appear on their balance sheet. That's as much as the entire airline is worth. I'd call it a big deal.
Then we differ. It isn't cash reserve, it's revenue.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 124, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10461 times:
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 125, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10460 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 123): Quoting enilria (Reply 121):
It's $80-100 million in cash depending upon the season that could appear on their balance sheet. That's as much as the entire airline is worth. I'd call it a big deal.
Then we differ. It isn't cash reserve, it's revenue.
mariner
Unspent revenue is the definition of cash. The longer you hold your revenue before you pay it out, the more cash you have. Financial Accounting 101.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 126, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10467 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 125): Unspent revenue is the definition of cash. The longer you hold your revenue before you pay it out, the more cash you have. Financial Accounting 101.
It is spent revenue. Running costs have to be subtracted from revenue, allocated cash. It is called cash flow. Cash reserves are unallocated cash.
But - I'm bored. And I don't see the point if you are just going to treat me as an idiot child. It is not as if anything said here amounts to a hell of beans in the real world.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 127, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10535 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 125): Unspent revenue is the definition of cash. The longer you hold your revenue before you pay it out, the more cash you have. Financial Accounting 101.
As I recall Financial Accounting 101 only briefly discusses long term capital projects or high dollar long term expenses. a bleep and its over type scenario.
Much or what an airline revolves around is the purchasing or leasing of aircraft. a.k.a capitalized acquisition. Planning, accounting and budgeting for capital projects is more a 401 type course if not a specialized course of its own which really gets into the weeds.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 129, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10556 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 122): Your wish is granted - not just MSY but FLL, TPA and RSW as well.
That is indeed hat I was looking for. It looks as if the aircraft will get two round trips I per day, which should work for keeping the aircraft in the air. Quite exciting. I'm not sure if it will work. I sure hope it does.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 130, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10563 times:
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 131, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10572 times:
I guess leave Allentown and focus on TTN. Consolidate in the geographical area with more potential. Might be a good move. TTN is in such a good area and ABE has other carriers to compete with. They could hope for a spirit type setup in ACY be the sole carrier and build a following.
As someone suggested on the other thread, this is probably related directly to the TTN moves. It's 42 miles as the crow flies ABE-TTN - not an arduous drive.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 133, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10560 times:
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 129): Quite exciting. I'm not sure if it will work. I sure hope it does.
Now that the dust has settled I think that if ever Frontier was going to attempt to north/south (east coast) corridor, this is the way to do it. Surely there some issues, but there are also a number of bonuses.
The biggest question is - will people use TTN? A number of airlines have tried TTN and have failed, but did they fail because of TTN?
Eastwind is probably the most famous example, but that was simply ineptly managed - not my words, but these:
"As for their demise, yes, their owner/manager was an idiot. They had horrible customer service, bad management, constant lengthy delays, bad luck, and numerous other problems that flew them straight into the ground."
Like several other airlines, Eastwind put a deal of faith in TTN-BOS (or TTN-BED, in some cases) and this may be the heart of the problem. Summer, sure, there's a lot of leisure traffic to BOS, but the rest of the year it needs a lot more than that. and Eastwind was a (rickety) leisure airline. Supposedly, it stayed nine days at PIE before dropping the route.
Obviously, TTN-MCO was Frontier's toe in the water and as I said earlier, the doubling of frequency is a very positive sign.
Maybe, as the airport guy said, Frontier is flying to the places people want to go and MSYTristar was right to stress - in the other thread, that:
MSYTristar: "These are tourist flights, no more, no less."
It's all leisure O&D, there's no confusion with connecting flights, as with Eastwind through GSO. Anything more than leisure is gravy.
A secondary problem is the notorious Nimbys of Mercer County, who openly rebelled about Eastwind, but at the Freeholder's Meeting they unanimously approved Frontier. It seemed a simple schizophrenia - they want the airport to succeed, just - not too much.
I very much hope that frontier is establishing lines of communication with Princeton and not just for the students. I've had some truck with Princeton professors and, although well paid, none of them was averse to saving a buck.
The odd one out, as in no Florida, is TTN-MSY, but it maintains the laser focus on leisure and I really have my fingers crossed here - it may be the most interesting route of the expansion, because it isn't so predictable.
I don't think there will be much more expansion of TTN for the foreseeable future. Most of the leisure bases are covered, although TTN-MYR might be a possibility. BUF? Perhaps. I don't think there will be a TTN-LAS and, since the airport doesn't have FIS, no TTN-PUJ or CUN. I'd give my eye teeth to see TTN to the US Virgin islands one day, though.
TTN-DEN? That's wide open and I have no clues as to the answer. I've toyed with the idea of DEN-TTN-BOS - in the summer, as a leisure route - but that's just speculation. It will be interesting to see how well TTN works without a DEN connection, which doesn't apply to Frontier's other focus cities at CUN and PUJ.
Another bonus may be that Frontier has - perhaps - preempted the chances of there being too much competition on any of these routes.
None of this should be taken to mean that Frontier has suddenly found El Dorado on the East Coast. But I think the auguries for it are good.
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 134, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10541 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 133): The biggest question is - will people use TTN? A number of airlines have tried TTN and have failed, but did they fail because of TTN?
I think like all airports in TTN's league (i.e., GYY, PIE) you need critical mass. Look at how the old ML started at MDW. I hope this works out for F9 maybe even into a mini hub (PIT, BUF, BOS, ORD)
"An idea has to be incredibly absurd to have any reasonable chance of succeeding" --A. Einstein
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 135, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10539 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 133): Now that the dust has settled I think that if ever Frontier was going to attempt to north/south (east coast) corridor, this is the way to do it. Surely there some issues, but there are also a number of bonuses.
I quite agree with you here. This is a longer term strategy I pictured a bit when the C-Series was ordered. I would like to see some more destinations with one or two aircraft stationed there. That, coupled with the charter business (who could even get involved with some similar flights), represents quite am intelligent diversification fom DEN. If it goes wrong at a city, much less money is lost and it is much easier to rectify the situation. As far as a connecting hub, I don't see one anytime soon except DEN. The team seems to recognize DEN is that hub, and seem to be making quite the strides to make it successful. Whatever they have been doing, keep it up. The numbers this year speak for themselves.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 136, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10553 times:
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 135): If it goes wrong at a city, much less money is lost and it is much easier to rectify the situation.
This article has a couple of videos, one with Daniel Shurz. He doesn't say much that hasn't been said by others, but, for the first time to my knowledge, he says that DEN is a possibility - if folk use Frontier:
"“A good rule in business is, when you have a unique idea you want to see if it’s smart or crazy. Realistically, we wanted a test,” said Daniel Shurz, Frontier’s senior vice president for commercial. “We’ve seen very good reactions to those flights. That confirmed to us that it’s worth taking this next step and we’re very excited to do that.”
There have been several mentions of Frontier reaching out to the community - being a good citizen - and the same article has a video about a $10,000 donation to Rescue Mission of Trenton.
Flytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 524 posts, RR: 0 Reply 137, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10538 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 133): I don't think there will be much more expansion of TTN for the foreseeable future. Most of the leisure bases are covered, although TTN-MYR might be a possibility. BUF?
Hopefully, it can increase on the frequency for MCO, TPA and FLL. If it can make RSW and MSY work, that'd be an accomplishment, but my guess is we'll hear these were seasonal to begin with when they end. I'd think BOS is another leisure but business route as well, and it being short-haul can make it a good route to attempt. Chicago and ATL are at about 700 miles, but have a lot of nonstop competition from PHL. DTW and CLE are the next biggest markets nearby but not driveable. NK does run seasonal ORD, ATL and DTW so fares from an alternate PHL airport to these markets are low during about half of the year or less.
Adding TTN-MYR would be a direct message to NK at ACY stating we're taking your routes. It's interesting because NK hasn't expanded at MYR for BWI service, and re: ACY it has decided to go with DFW from PHL, making me wonder if NK would really lower fares, be competitive at ACY to stay relevant.
The mix of ACY/PHL by NK might be done by F9 for TTN/PHL with PHL still handling the over 1100 mile routes.
Regarding TTN-DEN,
1. If VX drops PHL flights and the nonstop fares to west coast increase, it'd make it more viable for F9 to return on PHL-DEN, as west coast one stop fares become more reasonable.
2. Long flight still for an unique airport TTN.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 138, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10571 times:
Quoting Flytravel (Reply 137): Adding TTN-MYR would be a direct message to NK at ACY stating we're taking your routes. It's interesting because NK hasn't expanded at MYR for BWI service, and re: ACY it has decided to go with DFW from PHL, making me wonder if NK would really lower fares, be competitive at ACY to stay relevant.
I think that gauntlet was thrown down by Spirit when it announced DEN - and in particular AZA-DEN within about a nanosecond of Frontier announcing DEN-AZA. That's some fare war on that route, with $70 round trips.
I'm not a lover of airline tit-for-tat wars although they seem inevitable, and in those terms, I suppose all the Frontier TTN-Florida routes are a challenge to Spirit at ACY.
Regarding DEN-PHL, my understanding was that it was to be announced as a seasonal drop - the route did fine in summer, miserable in winter.
Now I wonder if they were keeping DEN-TTN up their sleeve. I don't suppose it would be daily, even if it ever happens, but more like the 3 x weekly DEN-MDT.
But I'm still mostly interested to see how TTN does without any DEN service - cutting the umbilical cord to DEN.
In this article it said that F9 was looking at DEN-ABE just a few weeks ago, and now they are quitting ABE all together.
IMO, F9 went to both ABE and TTN and told them they were going to add new routes but needing lower costs or waived fees. Clearly TTN outdid ABE. The press release saying they were suspending MCO-ABE "due to rising costs'' was clearly an insult to ABE.
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 139): In this article it said that F9 was looking at DEN-ABE just a few weeks ago, and now they are quitting ABE all together.
IMO, F9 went to both ABE and TTN and told them they were going to add new routes but needing lower costs or waived fees. Clearly TTN outdid ABE. The press release saying they were suspending MCO-ABE "due to rising costs'' was clearly an insult to ABE.
I have no idea what the behind-the-scenes is, and they might be totally chaotic in how they are approaching these things, but perhaps they said that they were looking at ABE-DEN in order to pressure ABE on costs - or TTN? Maybe they talked up ABE and TTN got a little aggressive and courted them more? I'm sure, in any case, ABE isn't thrilled, and F9 might have jerked their chain a little. Regardless, if the cost of doing business is on the rise, and if ABE was unable to help mitigate those rising costs, then it may not be all that inaccurate to say that their departure was "due to rising costs".
Anyhow, they are keeping it interesting. Not conventional, and maybe not ultimately successful, but interesting. Beats all the "UA adds ERJ service to Syracuse" type threads.
PacificF27 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 65 posts, RR: 0 Reply 142, posted (6 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 10531 times:
Providing the TTN experiment is successful it seems as if TTN-DEN and TTN-BOS along with some TTN-MCO are obvious uses of the plane after the winter/spring Florida business slows down. I bet the folks at F9 are looking at other third tier airports-- ones that would not be WN type airports. Which airports do you all think would work?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 143, posted (6 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 10543 times:
Quoting uncgso (Reply 141): Frontier ... welcome to the Triad!!
Someone who was on the first GSO-MCO has posted on Flyertalk that it was virtually full, four empty seats. That they were delayed about 20 minutes because of long lines at check-in and there was a bit of confusion between the local staff and some DEN staff that had been flown in (sorting it out, I guess).
But he said that "everyone was in a very good mood and much fun was had."
Not to read too much into it, first flights are often full, but it's a positive start. The real test will be at Christmas, I guess.
Buddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 490 posts, RR: 4 Reply 144, posted (6 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10531 times:
Quoting PacificF27 (Reply 142): Providing the TTN experiment is successful it seems as if TTN-DEN and TTN-BOS along with some TTN-MCO are obvious uses of the plane after the winter/spring Florida business slows down. I bet the folks at F9 are looking at other third tier airports-- ones that would not be WN type airports. Which airports do you all think would work?
I think at least TPA and FLL along with continuing service to DEN and MCO would work for MDT. No WN here and would not affect the new TTN service. If anything it would cannibalize WN at BWI, since we loose quite a few passengers to there. I just hope we don't get the chopping block. MDT costs were high at one point, hence why G4 never came here, then of course out of the blue now they are here. Wonder how F9 feels about that?
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 145, posted (6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10524 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 143): Not to read too much into it, first flights are often full, but it's a positive start.
We have to remember the bulk of these I suspect were flying the low ball introductory fares. A fare measure would be six to nine months down the road.
Forward looking I do see a F9 looking at Federal Air Regs (FAR) Part 139 certified airports located fifty or so miles away from medium to large airports which are not served by other carriers. TTN is the perfect example.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 146, posted (6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10538 times:
Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 144): MDT costs were high at one point, hence why G4 never came here, then of course out of the blue now they are here. Wonder how F9 feels about that?
I'm sure Frontier would prefer it if Allegiant were not there, but it hasn't affected DEN-MDT, which comes back on May 1. It's scheduled as 3 x weekly again, but I wouldn't fall over in shock to see it go to 4 x.
DEN-BLI comes back, too, and DEN-GTF with the A319, which should make them happy:
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 147, posted (6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10521 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 146): I'm sure Frontier would prefer it if Allegiant were not there, but it hasn't affected DEN-MDT, which comes back on May 1. It's scheduled as 3 x weekly again, but I wouldn't fall over in shock to see it go to 4 x.
The schedule has been extended to July 10th. While I know the summer schedule isn't set in stone here are some changes I've found:
DEN-PHF goes to 3 x weekly compared to daily last summer
DEN-PHL does not resume for the summer, so the cut in Jan appears to be permanent
DEN-TYS does not resume in the summer, so the cut in Dec appears to be permanent
MKE-MCO appears to end on 7 Apr, the same day as MCO-ABE
MCO-TYS does not come back, so the cut in Jan appears to be permanent
OMA-LAX does not come back this summer
COS-PDX does not come back this summer
COS-SEA does not come back this summer
DEN-GTF comes back as an A319
DEN-BLI goes to 4 x weekly compared to daily last summer
DEN-MDT comes back 3 weeks earlier starting May 1, 2013
Again I'm sure the schedule isn't complete yet for next summer, but MCO and COS as of now appear to be down
I thought it was an odd one for you because you're usually very precise.
The really odd one is RFD, which drops down to 2 x weekly in deep winter (no surprise) but then down to 1 x weekly in April. It goes back up again to 3 x weekly in May.
It was suggested the reduction was due to the subsidy ending, whereas it looks like sensible scheduling to me - aircraft availability or just low booking period, either/or.
But that's all as it stands at the moment. I don't suppose we'll know anything for even half-way sure until February - I assume that there may be some summer adds.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 151, posted (6 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10525 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 147): DEN-PHF goes to 3 x weekly compared to daily last summer
Lets hope Friday and Sunday are two of those days. There is a significant exodus of graduating students most Friday's and new arrivals flying in on Sunday for classes convening Monday at the Coast Guard Training Center Yorktown, Virginia
Not all fly West; but quite a few do as this is national training base. I flew to PHF a handful of occasions; the longest was HNL-LAX-PHL-PHF
As smaller airports go F9 may also want to consider catering to the FLETC Federal Law Enforcement Training Center; http://www.fletc.gov/ at Brunswick, Georgia (BQK) which is decent drive from ATL. North and South it is located roughly half way between Savannah and JAX. FLETC according to their web URL serves 90 federal agencies. BQK has a 8001 foot runway and mostly serves small feeder airlines from ATL. I did see one 734 outbound which was a Casino Express flight headed to SAT.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 153, posted (6 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10532 times:
Does anybody know why F9 doesn't publish an online timetable/ flight schedule? It would be nice to get a big picture of exactly where they fly and how often. Because I can't seem to keep up with it. Or is it because they enter and exit markets so quickly?
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 154, posted (6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10405 times:
You may also want to try your origin airport. http://www.flybna.com for example offers an OAG origin and destination timetable on their web URL for all carriers who serve to airport in alphabetical order by city name.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 155, posted (6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10380 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 152): Looks like Shenandoah-Orlando ends 7Apr. Not sure if it seasonally ends or if its gone for good
bobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1364 posts, RR: 0 Reply 156, posted (6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10357 times:
I see DEN-ATL is going down to .8 from 3.0 currently. I like F9 cuz it gets me to SLC earlier for free skiing than either WN or DL. I am going to cash in my F9 miles and then be done with them.
MSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6242 posts, RR: 51 Reply 157, posted (6 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10328 times:
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 156): I see DEN-ATL is going down to .8 from 3.0 currently. I like F9 cuz it gets me to SLC earlier for free skiing than either WN or DL. I am going to cash in my F9 miles and then be done with them.
I think the rock bottom fares really killed the ATL service. The flights went out full every single day, but you could buy a walk up fare one hour before the plane left ATL for $90. Loads weren't the problem...yields were.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 158, posted (6 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10323 times:
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 157): I think the rock bottom fares really killed the ATL service.
My personal thoughts lean more on the WN FL acquisition which brings WN into ATL by brand affiliation only. Ironically I didn't see FL as a threat to F9 pre-merger focus city. Thereafter I think F9 minimal advertising marketing budget also enters the equation.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
This article states that only 70 pax were on the first inbound flight while aprox 100 were on the 1st outbound. It says Frontier hasn't made a decision about flights after April 7, yet MCO-COU seems to be selling past that date. I'm sure a decision will be finalized in the next month, but I have a feeling MCO-SHD won't be sticking around long.
COU on the other hand had only 2 empty seats on the first flight. While it's hard to tell success from early flights, keep in mind, it's when all the promo fares are out there like $57 for MCO-GSO, etc. If SHD is struggling with filling a plane with promo fares, there is no way F9 can make that route work.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 22057 posts, RR: 51 Reply 160, posted (6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10197 times:
I understand F9 has an RFP out for handling at LAX.
As far back as I can remember (into 737 days) F9 always had its own staff here.
I guess with yo-yo scheduling the last few years it probably made it hard or atleast more expensive to retain ones own staff. Also might be going back to the model YX used here where everything sans a station manager was contracted out (AA was their last handler prior to merger).
Suppose yet another terminal move might be in the cards. (the signage makers must love the work.. lol)
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Kcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3629 posts, RR: 7 Reply 161, posted (6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10063 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 159): This article states that only 70 pax were on the first inbound flight while aprox 100 were on the 1st outbound. It says Frontier hasn't made a decision about flights after April 7, yet MCO-COU seems to be selling past that date. I'm sure a decision will be finalized in the next month, but I have a feeling MCO-SHD won't be sticking around long.
Website says it's disc. after april 7th. I think 70 on the first inbound is promising for a small market.. but not selling out the inaugural is a serious red flag.
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 157): I think the rock bottom fares really killed the ATL service. The flights went out full every single day, but you could buy a walk up fare one hour before the plane left ATL for $90. Loads weren't the problem...yields were.
Wouldn't that be their own doing? DL surely doesn't want to charge that, and I doubt FL would even go that low either.
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 538 posts, RR: 1 Reply 162, posted (6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10052 times:
SBN sold out both their inbound and outbound inaugural SBN-DEN flights.
The flight to DEN was two hrs late leaving SBN today because of the heavy fog in SBN. Two or more United Express flights to ORD were cancelled along with a few Delta Connection flights to DTW. Numerous flights at ORD and MDW were also cancelled this morning due to the heavy fog.
Being that is is the busiest day for air travel I'll bet F9 did not have any seats left this morning going to DEN from SBN to help accomodate passengers who were originally flying to ORD on United Express to connect to western destinations.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 164, posted (6 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9759 times:
[quote=smoot4208,reply=159]COU on the other hand had only 2 empty seats on the first flight.[/quotesod
Apparently COU has a rich tradition in aviation. Columbia, Missouri was mentioned in History channel series "Pawn Star" episode last season. Someone wanted to pawn a wooden propeller in Las Vegas which was carved by a well known aviation pioneer from the area. I only caught bits an pieces of the show and don't remember the name of the aviation pioneer. I want to say the company he founded built airplanes for what was the U.S. Army Air Corp.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 165, posted (6 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9587 times:
The Denver International Airport website shows that F9 no longer uses 4 gates on Concourse A (A44, A46, A48, and A50). They're down to about 15 gates now. This seems like a significant retrenchment to me. Also, 15 gates seems like a tight squeeze for roughly 160 daily departures. Or has there been a reduction in the flight schedule? Is this a permanent change, or just seasonal? Should this be cause for concern, or is this simply a way for F9 to save money and use their gate space more efficiently? When I've flown F9 in the past, after the flight landed at DIA, we've had to wait 10 or 15 extra minnutes for a gate to open up.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 166, posted (6 months 13 hours ago) and read 9305 times:
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 156): I see DEN-ATL is going down to .8 from 3.0 currently. I like F9 cuz it gets me to SLC earlier for free skiing than either WN or DL. I am going to cash in my F9 miles and then be done with them.
I always fly into SLC early for the free lift ticket in Park City too! If you land early enough in the day you can really get a full day in and Deer Valley is up to $102 a day so its worth it! Ski season is really almost here depending on where you live in the country my heart is beating faster in excitement
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 167, posted (6 months 6 hours ago) and read 9191 times:
I checked F9's flight schedule for the Denver hub on Wednesday, January 16, 2013. Since they don't publish an online timetable, I decided to find out on my own. Some of my observations: we can see that they fly to a decent amount of places that WN and even UA don't fly to (primarily the Mexican and Latin American vacation routes), but with an extremely low frequency of flights (less than daily on many routes, and only seasonal). 4 times per day is the most they fly to any city.
I was also surprised to count only 92 daily departures (weren't they up to about 160 not too long ago)? If so, that's a pretty significant cutback, and no wonder why they no longer need 4 gates on Concourse A. Of course, I know it changes during different parts of the year. I'm not saying this strategy is necessarily good or bad; but if it makes money for them, then great. Maybe they can do okay being the distant #3 carrier at DIA, especially if they are becoming more and more like an Allegiant ULCC type carrier. Anyway, I included the city pair, frequency (daily unless otherwise noted), and the aircraft equipment type. I hope this is readable:
PlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 530 posts, RR: 1 Reply 169, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9066 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 167): but with an extremely low frequency of flights (less than daily on many routes, and only seasonal). 4 times per day is the most they fly to any city.
Thanks for doing the list manually. I hope it works for F9, but it doesn't really work well for those of us who travel on business.
Can F9 actually make money flying to a city once per day? Wouldn't the fixed costs of a station eat up the revenues?
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 538 posts, RR: 1 Reply 170, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8970 times:
Quoting PlaneAdmirer
"Can F9 actually make money flying to a city once per day? Wouldn't the fixed costs of a station eat up the revenues?"
At SBN they contract to DGS. So it's good for Delta and Frontier. F9's fixed costs are low with this setup. On par or less than Allegiant's. If you look at the SBN schedule for example the flight is offered 4 times a week on days that most people fly on. It is designed for leisure travelers in that it leaves SBN at 10:07 AM for DEN. With the convenience of not having to get up early to catch this flight plus a spacious new concourse and an enlarged TSA security area and convenient parking the flight to DEN with better wesbound connections makes a lot of sense.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 171, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8927 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 147): DEN-PHF goes to 3 x weekly compared to daily last summer
DEN-PHL does not resume for the summer, so the cut in Jan appears to be permanent
DEN-TYS does not resume in the summer, so the cut in Dec appears to be permanent
MKE-MCO appears to end on 7 Apr, the same day as MCO-ABE
MCO-TYS does not come back, so the cut in Jan appears to be permanent
OMA-LAX does not come back this summer
COS-PDX does not come back this summer
COS-SEA does not come back this summer
DEN-GTF comes back as an A319
DEN-BLI goes to 4 x weekly compared to daily last summer
DEN-MDT comes back 3 weeks earlier starting May 1, 2013
Again I'm sure the schedule isn't complete yet for next summer, but MCO and COS as of now appear to be down
Also looks like MSN-MCO ends on 6 April. Not sure if that's a seasonal cut or not.
Antoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1505 posts, RR: 4 Reply 172, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8873 times:
Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 169): Can F9 actually make money flying to a city once per day? Wouldn't the fixed costs of a station eat up the revenues?
Depends on how they have it set up...
Quoting freakyrat (Reply 170): At SBN they contract to DGS. So it's good for Delta and Frontier.
At BNA they've always had DGS doing their ramp handling. They have F9 employees upstairs, but they're virtually all part time. For DGS's part, the Frontier contract has always been operated as part of another ramp crew so they don't have a huge number of people just sitting for hours.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 538 posts, RR: 1 Reply 173, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8809 times:
At SBN I'm sure they have part time F9 employees running the counter while DGS runs the ramp. One nice thing about it is they had to bring the Airbus ground support equipment into SBN and now have the large tow tractors, towbars, and an extra deice truck. In addition they have the DC9 and MD80 towbars etc for the use during the just completed ND Football season. SBN has also rebuilt the ramp under A5 with heavy reinforced concrete cause the asphalt was melting this summer. F9 uses gate A3 in the remodeled old section which has a concrete ramp and jetway capable for use with Airbus aircraft. It is a win-win for F9 and DGS (Delta) and the DGS folks were hoping that F9 would serve SBN as its really no competition for Delta and provides additional work.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 174, posted (5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8559 times:
Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 172): Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 169):
Can F9 actually make money flying to a city once per day? Wouldn't the fixed costs of a station eat up the revenues?
Depends on how they have it set up...
Quoting freakyrat (Reply 173):
At SBN I'm sure they have part time F9 employees running the counter while DGS runs the ramp.
Infrequent operations cost more per unit of capacity by definition, but if the revenue increase per seat exceeds the cost increase per seat then it's fine. We don't know enough to evaluate whether they are getting the revenue premium they need in these cities. G4 does it by selling packages. It's certainly much harder for F9.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 176, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7997 times:
According to the DOT dockets, F9 plans to operate ORD-STL-HUX commencing in Feb 13. It stated that they wanted to do so prior but were unable to do so because of constraints. I know they currently operate it for Apple vacations, but I assume they want to make it scheduled.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 178, posted (5 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7934 times:
Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 172): At BNA they've always had DGS doing their ramp handling. They have F9 employees upstairs,
A wish list of mine would have F9 moving out of BNA "A" concourse. From a flyers perspective who uses BNA ten or so times a year "A" seems to be the stepchild concourse. Until the most recent upgrade "A" and "B" to a certain extent seemed to lack behind "C" in modifications or construction. I suppose because I fly in and out of "C" most often. Several years ago I made a commitment to never again fly on what was CO due to a bru-ha-ha with a OTG (on the ground) CO CSA supervisor concerning a pet issue. If memory serves me CO was a tenant on "B" at the time.
The "A" concourse does make for better viewing as you drive into BNA or from the cell phone waiting area.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
type-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4352 posts, RR: 20 Reply 179, posted (5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7804 times:
It looks like F9 is only going to do IAH-DEN once daily?
Their flights to DEN out of IAH have always been near full, and we even have a 320 once daily. Why would they reduce to 1 319 per day? How long before they reduce it to 0?
This has to be frustrating for passengers. They fly F9 once and like it, but when they go to rebook their next flight they may or may not find Frontier on the route or even any space availability.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 180, posted (5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting type-rated (Reply 179): It looks like F9 is only going to do IAH-DEN once daily?
I'm not sure where you're seeing that. I just tested dates in January, February, March and April and they all showed 2 x daily except some Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 181, posted (5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7703 times:
Quoting type-rated (Reply 179):
It looks like F9 is only going to do IAH-DEN once daily?
Their flights to DEN out of IAH have always been near full, and we even have a 320 once daily. Why would they reduce to 1 319 per day? How long before they reduce it to 0?
This has to be frustrating for passengers. They fly F9 once and like it, but when they go to rebook their next flight they may or may not find Frontier on the route or even any space availability.
When they first switched airports from HOU to IAH, they operated DEN-IAH once daily with an E90. So the 319 is actually an upgrade. Once the route gets more established, and depending on the time of year, I bet we could see a second or even third flight on the route. But they still have UA with their ten or so flights a day to reckon with. And F9 is not known for their high frequency of flights. As I indicated in post #167, most places F9 flies to, only have one or two flights a day (all to DEN). Higher demand cities only have three or four F9 flights per day.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 182, posted (5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7666 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 165): The Denver International Airport website shows that F9 no longer uses 4 gates on Concourse A (A44, A46, A48, and A50).
A50 is an ex-AS gate (they are now at A51) and is now taken by WN. Looks like A50 and A52 are going to be permanent WN gates. F9 has got to NOT be happy about that, and they have every right to be. When I was working there, the DEN station manager wrote a memo to the staff saying he was hoping it was only temporary for the summer. Lo and behold, it is now December and WN is still using those gates. I don't understand why WN needs A50 & A52 for. Those are not international gates. International gates are A33, A35, A37, A39 and A41.
A44, A46, A48 are still being used by F9. F9 still has their aircraft parked on those gates every morning when I get into work. NK uses 27, 29, 31 at times and sometimes 33 & 35 from what I have been seeing as late.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 183, posted (5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7643 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 177): Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 176):
F9 plans to operate ORD-STL-HUX commencing in Feb 13
What's the frequency and frame?
I assume 1/weekly. What ever they used last winter for Apple will be used again. It's not new service, just going from a strictly apple flight to a public flight where F9 can sell seats.
Also from Last week's OAG, DEN-AZA goes seasonal effective 07Apr
On a side note, does anyone know when the final 3 A318s will be returned?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 184, posted (5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7599 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 180): I'm not sure where you're seeing that. I just tested dates in January, February, March and April and they all showed 2 x daily except some Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
Just to add to that, due to a (Sunday) retime there will be 3 x IAH-DEN on Mondays from early April.
There may be more of this - juggling the reduced fleet to advantage.
type-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4352 posts, RR: 20 Reply 185, posted (5 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7500 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 180): I'm not sure where you're seeing that.
In the list in reply 167.
DEN-IAH 1 319
Did Frontier lose some market share when they switched IAH-HOU then back to IAH?
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
I'm sympathetic to the idea of a list like that, but it's really tricky in these present circumstances as they've been dealing with the reduced fleet and the realignment of frequencies.
It's been a major restructure of resources. There's still the issue of the four remaining E190's and there are obviously questions about some of the smaller stations and the A319. I'll be interested to see what happens with DRO, for example.
But I think they may be at stabilisation, or very close to it, because last week the CEO started to talk about the possibility of some growth next year.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 182): F9 has got to NOT be happy about that, and they have every right to be.
Not too unhappy, it was what the CEO wanted to do. The reduction in the fleet allied to a reduction in DEN gates and saved a bunch of money.
It's the old Sean Menke mantra - there has to be more to Frontier than DEN but DEN has to be profitable first, otherwise there isn't much point.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 187, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7415 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 182):
A50 is an ex-AS gate (they are now at A51) and is now taken by WN. Looks like A50 and A52 are going to be permanent WN gates. F9 has got to NOT be happy about that, and they have every right to be. When I was working there, the DEN station manager wrote a memo to the staff saying he was hoping it was only temporary for the summer. Lo and behold, it is now December and WN is still using those gates. I don't understand why WN needs A50 & A52 for. Those are not international gates. International gates are A33, A35, A37, A39 and A41.
A44, A46, A48 are still being used by F9. F9 still has their aircraft parked on those gates every morning when I get into work. NK uses 27, 29, 31 at times and sometimes 33 & 35 from what I have been seeing as late.
I flew F9 back in May on DEN-SFO, and we departed from gate A50. Directly across from us were a couple of AirTran gates (I believe A51 and A53). So that's how WN gained access to the A concourse. After the WN/FL merger is completed, I don't know if they'll keep those gates on A or not. If F9 is now operating less than 100 daily departures from DEN, it would make sense that they would vacate some of their gates on A. The situation can always change though. From what I have observed, the gates on the far east side of the A concourse don't seem to belong to one particular airline for an extended period of time. They seem to swap fairly often; perhaps some of those are actually common-use gates.
bahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1727 posts, RR: 12 Reply 188, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7209 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 182): A50 is an ex-AS gate (they are now at A51) and is now taken by WN. Looks like A50 and A52 are going to be permanent WN gates. F9 has got to NOT be happy about that, and they have every right to be. When I was working there, the DEN station manager wrote a memo to the staff saying he was hoping it was only temporary for the summer. Lo and behold, it is now December and WN is still using those gates. I don't understand why WN needs A50 & A52 for. Those are not international gates. International gates are A33, A35, A37, A39 and A41.
A44, A46, A48 are still being used by F9. F9 still has their aircraft parked on those gates every morning when I get into work. NK uses 27, 29, 31 at times and sometimes 33 & 35 from what I have been seeing as late.
You got them backwards. A52 is an Alaska gate. A51-53 are former Airtran gates that are shared by WN and FL.
F9 still uses A50-48-46-44 but they are not dedicated F9 gates.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1991 posts, RR: 3 Reply 189, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7059 times:
How many flights does F9 operate on a daily basis from DEN?
Antoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1505 posts, RR: 4 Reply 190, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6892 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 178): Several years ago I made a commitment to never again fly on what was CO due to a bru-ha-ha with a OTG (on the ground) CO CSA supervisor concerning a pet issue. If memory serves me CO was a tenant on "B" at the time.
How long ago was that? As far as I know, CO operated out of C while ground handled by AA, then moved immediately to A when they put their own agents in above wing. There's really not been much room open on B in the last decade and a half. Much like A, the only "open" gates are blocked from being used by anything larger than a flea if an adjacent gate is in use. (I'm actually of the opinion that A8 should be renumbered to A6, since the A6 door is blocked both inside and out and will never be used with the way the ramp and passenger waiting areas are laid out, but that's another topic).
On the topic of Frontier, they MIGHT do better from a passenger perspective if they move to C, but there's no ticket counter space to give them on that side of the airport... and no bagroom space. They COULD stay where they are for those functions, but that's a LONG walk from counter to gate, where right now they have a reasonable distance to everything. And there is (finally!) decent food options after security on the way to the A gates. The north end ticket counters could use some work still, though. Even the vacant counter space still has the really, REALLY old podiums from prior to the airport's massive renovation project... really looks out of place with the rest of the decor.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 191, posted (5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6794 times:
Toward the tail end of Gordon Bethune's watch. Although I liked his leadership style and I did have a chance to talk to him once at a federal travel forum at the Opryland Hotel. I was disappointed much of it didn't filter down to the CSA supervisor level at least in BNA.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 192, posted (5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6760 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 189): On the topic of Frontier, they MIGHT do better from a passenger perspective if they move to C, but there's no ticket counter space to give them on that side of the airport
As airport planning goes I've often thought and I may be wrong the "A" and "B" concourse at BNA (one or both) should be re-designated regional jet or commuter concourses for the 99 seater or less operators. From a flyers perspective my eyes tell me much of the flying which occurs out of "A" & "B" is just that regional.
Let all of the larger jet operators including F9 use "C" ; although WN might have conniption fit. The two American Eagle gates at the end of the long straight-away near the old smoking lounges of "C" should move to either A or B
As far as the infrastructure I do think one if not both of the walls at either end of terminal (ticket counters) should be knocked down and expanded. If you can't go out ;up may be another option. The parking area has grown by leaps and bounds. I don't think the terminal as a whole has kept pace. Also I'm glad to hear the USO is getting a permanant lounge/location in the airport.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 193, posted (5 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6712 times:
Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 169): Thanks for doing the list manually. I hope it works for F9, but it doesn't really work well for those of us who travel on business.
Exactly...
Quoting mariner (Reply 186): Quoting type-rated (Reply 185):
In the list in reply 167.
I'm sympathetic to the idea of a list like that, but it's really tricky in these present circumstances as they've been dealing with the reduced fleet and the realignment of frequencies.
Quoting mariner (Reply 186): There's still the issue of the four remaining E190's and there are obviously questions about some of the smaller stations and the A319. I'll be interested to see what happens with DRO, for example.
So, the E190s are going away in '13 as well as all of the A318s according to the quarterly call. They said they have not made commitments to replace the A318s. So, if you do the math and consider all the routes on that list supposedly starting in May 2013...it doesn't add up. Some major stuff needs to be pruned. Gonna be a painful year it appears.
Looking at the fleet guidance and the published schedule, it would appear that the airline is 10% over-published starting in May assuming they follow through on retiring the A318s and E190s by May. They could easily extend the A318s I'd guess.
Here's another fleet plan problem in my mind. They have 16 168 seat A320s now. Those planes were really bought for a hub operation, but some can be used for the Apple flying. I'm looking across their network going forward and having problems seeing places where they really need A320s with 168 seats. I'd guess it is inevitable that markets like PHX and DFW that still have good frequency, but are under heavy pricing pressure from NK are at risk of freeing up more A320 sized aircraft. I'd say that absent Apple, the A320 is not a good aircraft for their future ULCC network.
BTW, did you know it's $23 each way plus like $15 in tax from DEN to PHX right now??? Jan15-22. It's not just a couple of flights either. When these fares hit earnings it's gonna be ugly. I've never seen it this cheap for more than a few hours, but it's been like this at least since Friday and probably before that. There's a lot of blood being spilled.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 194, posted (5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6691 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 193): Some major stuff needs to be pruned. Gonna be a painful year it appears.
I expect you'd find it odd, then, that the CEO has been talking about possible growth next year - limited growth, perhaps, but growth is growth.
Quoting enilria (Reply 193): I'd say that absent Apple, the A320 is not a good aircraft for their future ULCC network.
There's always such a curious dichotomy between what you post and what Frontier actually does. No offence or anything, but I follow their version of Frontier, not yours.
Jerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1117 posts, RR: 0 Reply 196, posted (5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6592 times:
Quoting mariner (Thread starter): But not to be Little Mary Sunshine, there is a downside at TTN. Signature has just dropped its flights to Bedford MA (its only commercial flights), and while the Freeholders were positive, they were not all starry-eyed:
Believe that you mean Streamline not Signature and they went out of business not decided to leave because Frontier was coming. Besides frankly this is a better commerical service than Streamline anyway.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 197, posted (5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6521 times:
Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 195):
I believe Siegel told the staff at a town hall last week that the E190s would be around until September 2013.
That sounds right to me. They have no agreements in place for the aircraft that are not being sold or going to Ceasars. Plus, under RAH, Frontier has been doing its fleet changes during the fall and early winter. So if they have no plans for the final 4 or 5 E190s, then the expectation would indeed be September.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, RR: 88 Reply 198, posted (5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6490 times:
Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 196): Believe that you mean Streamline not Signature and they went out of business not decided to leave because Frontier was coming. Besides frankly this is a better commerical service than Streamline anyway.
Yes, I do mean Streamline, thanks for picking that up.
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From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22722 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, 
as a gateway of sorts to the Tidewater area of Virgina. Maybe YX/Republic would fly it for F9 
From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, 
From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, 
It's interesting because NK hasn't expanded at MYR for BWI service, and re: ACY it has decided to go with DFW from PHL, making me wonder if NK would really lower fares, be competitive at ACY to stay relevant.
, 22057 posts, 
At BNA they've always had DGS doing their ramp handling. They have F9 employees upstairs, but they're virtually all part time. For DGS's part, the Frontier contract has always been operated as part of another ramp crew so they don't have a huge number of people just sitting for hours.
Jan15-22. It's not just a couple of flights either. When these fares hit earnings it's gonna be ugly. I've never seen it this cheap for more than a few hours, but it's been like this at least since Friday and probably before that. There's a lot of blood being spilled.