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Odd Runway Use At SFO Today  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19709 posts, RR: 58
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6988 times:

Today we were spotting during the "Asian Rush Hour" (what my hubby and I call the ~11A-2P time when all the Asian flights depart).

Winds were calm (negligible) and it was sunny and warm. I watched a KL 744 and a CX 744 taxi out. CX went to 28L (might have been 28R) and KL went to 1L. KL was cleared off of 1L and then immediately after, CX departed 28L.

Why would KL have used 1L? That runway is typically reserved for North American/Mexico flights. I've seen longer-range flights depart from the 1's when the winds were out of the north, but there was no wind today. That flight typically uses the 28's.

The best I can figure is that it was lightly loaded and departing the 1's requires less turning around to head towards AMS.

Anyone know?

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineaudidudi From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6953 times:

I've seen BA and AF amongst some others use 1R when other long hauls were using 28L/R to Europe. Probably has to do with their loads on the day.

User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6143 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6847 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):

KLM use's 1R almost daily. Now using 1L is a real surprise and requires a very light load, using the 1's is not surprising.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19709 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6738 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 2):
KLM use's 1R almost daily. Now using 1L is a real surprise and requires a very light load, using the 1's is not surprising.

Sorry... my right hand is the one with my thumb on my left.  

It was 1R, not 1L.


User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2116 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6729 times:

I saw a JAL 777 depart off 1R last week.

User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6565 times:

!R is 8,648 ft. I was talking to an KL flight officer once and he said they actually save fuel departing from the 1s because they fly East and cannot always get the Tower's approval for a Shore line? departure. Taking off from the 28s requires them to take off to the West and then bank around to the East. The flights are still pretty heavy but I believe light on the cargo


John@SFO
User currently online777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2501 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6269 times:

Given the terrain issues, it would've been so much more dramatic had the KL flight used either of the 19s. I wonder how often a heavy (lightly loaded or otherwise) uses that option; I've never seen it but figure someone on here might have caught it or actually flown it at some point. Like many, I've arrived on 1L in a heavy in the past, (UA51 HNL-SFO, B772) but there was virtually no traffic to contend with, and were extremely light load-wise.

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1729 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6207 times:

Everyday is different, but modern planes have the option to select any runway or any intersection departure and the FMS can calculate the new V1, Vr and V2 for that day, conditions and weight. So i´m sure if they can save a few Kilos of fuel and flight time they will do. I see almost daily in different places with different carriers.

so if the day permits, why not??,


User currently offlineworkhorse From France, joined Jul 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6147 times:

Quoting chrisair (Reply 4):
I saw a JAL 777 depart off 1R last week.

Oh, that's very interesting, I wondered if it can happen since longtime! Have you seen what they did afterwards? Did they go left (over North Bay / Marin County) or right (over San Mateo / Pacifica)?

[Edited 2012-10-14 05:39:46]

User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6143 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 5859 times:

Quoting workhorse (Reply 8):
Oh, that's very interesting, I wondered if it can happen since longtime! Have you seen what they did afterwards? Did they go left (over North Bay / Marin County) or right (over San Mateo / Pacifica)?

JAL uses 1R almost daily. Their departure off 1R is usually a left turn to 350, then radar vectors over the south side of the city (Candalstick Park area) to where ever they are entering their track over the ocean.

You can see here on the 12th, its appeared to fly over the Skaggs VOR before heading towards the ocean.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/J...1/history/20121013/0155Z/KSFO/RJTT

Quoting 777fan (Reply 6):
Given the terrain issues, it would've been so much more dramatic had the KL flight used either of the 19s

Winter is coming. We will be seeing the Euro carriers departing 19L when needed during the winter when we get our southerly winds as a Low Pressure system moves in.



Quoting legacyins (Reply 5):

Spot on. The Int'l carriers leaving from A gates save a lot of fuel taking 1R. Not only a shorter taxi, but they also get out quicker then 28 departures since they don't need to get fitted in between 28 arrivals. Then as you mention, they are pointed in the right direction immediately after take-off. This explains why you see Euro flights from the G gates use the 28's, but requests the Shoreline Departure ( immediate turn Northeasterly, for those unfamiliar with SFO). LH even did the Shoreline a few weeks back with the 380, that was impressive.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 7):
so if the day permits, why not??,

To add to your statement, being a foreign airport, the pilots need to be familiar. At SFO, the heavy's are automatically given the 28's in their clearance. They need to be familiar that they can request the 1's, as being discussed in this thread, at SFO.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineworkhorse From France, joined Jul 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 9):
JAL uses 1R almost daily. Their departure off 1R is usually a left turn to 350, then radar vectors over the south side of the city (Candalstick Park area) to where ever they are entering their track over the ocean.

You can see here on the 12th, its appeared to fly over the Skaggs VOR before heading towards the ocean.


Oh, thanks! Makes for a nice sightseeing tour if one seats on the left side (SF -> Sausalito / Tiburon -> Sonoma Valley).


User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2116 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5646 times:

Quoting workhorse (Reply 10):
Oh, thanks! Makes for a nice sightseeing tour if one seats on the left side (SF -> Sausalito / Tiburon -> Sonoma Valley).

Any departure off the 1s provides great sightseeing, if it's clear. For northbound departures sit on the left side, for southbound or eastbound departures sit on the right.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19709 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5562 times:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 6):
Given the terrain issues, it would've been so much more dramatic had the KL flight used either of the 19s. I wonder how often a heavy (lightly loaded or otherwise) uses that option; I've never seen it but figure someone on here might have caught it or actually flown it at some point.

I have on a UA 744 from SFO to ORD in 1998. There were maybe 20 pax on the whole aircraft. The captain came on and told us that this departure would be very swift and that we would be making a sharp left turn after departure. We used 19L and I'm certain it was "max blast" because both the acceleration and the rate of climb were truly impressive. Immediately after wheels up, we made a left turn that felt like a 84-degree bank (I know it wasn't really) and then continued our climb.

To be in a machine that is so huge and yet moves so quickly is a truly impressive experience. It really demonstrates just how much power those PW4000's can pack.


User currently offlineQ From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5507 times:

I saw LH 744 climbed out path from runway 4L at O'Hare in a few years ago. I checked the schedule ORD to FRA. The runway is 7,500 feet pretty short.

Q


User currently offlineUALDUDE From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5197 times:

It most likely has to do with the required climb gradient in the even of an engine loss. The 01's have less of a requirement than the 28's do IIRC. Their performance data for that flight probably dictated using the 01's rather the 28's.

User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 876 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

On my last flight out of SFO on VS, we departed on the 1's. Rotation was just after the 28R intersection and a fab view of OAK airport on the climb out. The 744 seemed to keep a dead straight line all the way back, with no noticeable turns.

User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6835 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

Quoting UALDUDE (Reply 14):
Their performance data for that flight probably dictated using the 01's rather the 28's.

What aircraft/weight/temperature combination would dictate using the shorter runway?


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3076 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 16):
Quoting UALDUDE (Reply 14):
Their performance data for that flight probably dictated using the 01's rather the 28's.

What aircraft/weight/temperature combination would dictate using the shorter runway?

He probably meant that the performance data indicated that they COULD use 01R.


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