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Air Canada Ops At FRA  
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6518 times:

I've noticed that both AC 872 and 876 (YYZ-FRA) have been operating a B77W for the last week or so. AC 872 has been a 777 service for years but 876 is usually a A333 or a B763. Is this change due to increased cargo/pax loads or a shortage of A333s?

There is a lot of capacity between YYZ-FRA, the two daily AC B77W flights plus the LH A346 flight. Not to mention TS's A313 flights to FRA (I believe 3 weekly).

AC is sending 3 B77W daily to FRA including the YUL-FRA flights. Does anyone have the weekly or daily seat capacity between Canada and Frankfurt, including LH and TS flights?

Is there any chance that LH will send the B748 or A388 to YYZ next summer? Both planes have a lot of premium seats so I'm not sure whether YYZ is a logical destination for either the 748 or A388.

KrisYYZ

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3004 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6477 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Thread starter):
AC is sending 3 B77W daily to FRA including the YUL-FRA flights.

Plus daily 763 YOW-FRA.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinecgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

Not sure about all your questions but don't forget the AC flight YYC-FRA. They send the A330 on that route


A330 man.
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6414 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 1):

Plus daily 763 YOW-FRA.
Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 2):
AC flight YYC-FRA. They send the A330 on that route

And the LH flight from YVR (A346). Obviously FRA is one of, if not the biggest Star Alliance hubs in Europe. Every time I've flow to FRA from YYZ the plane was pretty much full. I know AC prefers frequency over single flight capacity to most European Hubs, but one could argue (even though it will never happen) that AC could acquire some larger metal for FRA and perhaps LHR ops. If both the cargo and pax loads are there, a higher density B748/A388 could do well on that route.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlinecgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6340 times:

Isn't the TS service seasonal?


A330 man.
User currently onlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3017 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6234 times:
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872 has been pretty much the only European flight that has consistently seen the 77W year round. Even 856 (LHR) usually gets downgauged to an A330 in the winter months.

876 has seen 77Ls during the Christmas holiday period in the past, when they were freed up with 087 (PVG) going to 77W.



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6089 times:

Cargo is very big on the route and it might be pre-Christmas volume starting to ship, that is part of the loads.

Rumour abounds that the LH 748i will be subbed into YYZ at some point for publicity. It however is far to premium heavy for the the route. And the A380 is far to big for the route. If AC wasn't sending so much belly cargo through FRA then the case could be made that the A380 could take over for LH and AC downgrade to a smaller aircraft. Since there is revenue sharing on the route it doesn't matter what metal the passenger flies on. However, there isn't a similar arrangement for cargo and AC would lose a lot of belly cargo. It would mean either making an arrangement with LH Cargo, another cargo operator or the wetlease again of a MD11F/DC10F as before. So basically it doesn't make financial sense over the current flights for AC. Phase 2 of the Cross Atlantic arrangement of AC/UA/LH could extend to cargo. And if that happens then you could see one carrier upgrade the metal and others downgrade much more readily.


User currently offlinereifel From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 1360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

On a side note, hasn't Condor launched flighs to YYZ as well (in addition to YVR, SEA, YHZ etc). They also use *A Airlines as feeders to FRA... Quite some traffic indeed.

User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5748 times:
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There's a lot of connecting traffic as well. I was on 973 recently and I noticed a small detail I don't usually pay attention to. One of the newspapers on offer was the Strait Times, and there were a lot of takers...


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5487 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 6):
Cargo is very big on the route and it might be pre-Christmas volume starting to ship, that is part of the loads.

Rumour abounds that the LH 748i will be subbed into YYZ at some point for publicity. It however is far to premium heavy for the the route. And the A380 is far to big for the route. If AC wasn't sending so much belly cargo through FRA then the case could be made that the A380 could take over for LH and AC downgrade to a smaller aircraft. Since there is revenue sharing on the route it doesn't matter what metal the passenger flies on. However, there isn't a similar arrangement for cargo and AC would lose a lot of belly cargo. It would mean either making an arrangement with LH Cargo, another cargo operator or the wetlease again of a MD11F/DC10F as before. So basically it doesn't make financial sense over the current flights for AC. Phase 2 of the Cross Atlantic arrangement of AC/UA/LH could extend to cargo. And if that happens then you could see one carrier upgrade the metal and others downgrade much more readily.

Thanks for the info... I hope we get some advance notice of the B748 coming to YYZ.

I'm surprised that LH cargo doesn't carry AC freight. Did AC operate the wet-leased MD11F while LH cargo was flying to YYZ? Or did LH cargo restart ops after AC terminated the leasing of the World Airways MD-11Fs?

KrisYYZ


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5408 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 9):
I'm surprised that LH cargo doesn't carry AC freight. Did AC operate the wet-leased MD11F while LH cargo was flying to YYZ? Or did LH cargo restart ops after AC terminated the leasing of the World Airways MD-11Fs?

I think the issue is that LH does and can carry AC Cargo and vice versa, it is not on a pure revenue sharing basis as per the passenger agreement. Someone "inside" should confirm that. So there is greater profit for AC to ship cargo in the belly of the 777 then in the belly of the LH A346 or LH Cargo MD11F.

AC wet-leased the MD11F prior to LH Cargo doing regular flights and prior to the 777's entering service on a large scale basis. They also stopped the DC10 that flew to China via Calgary. (or was it the MD11 to China and the DC10 to FRA I can't remember?) When the last downturn started and at the same time AC saw how much belly cargo they could carry on the 773 they cancelled the 77Forder and ended the wet-leases.

These days when airlines are reducing newspapers carried, carrying less pop and drinks, all to add a bit of efficiency, the extra profit for AC to carry its own cargo as much as possible adds up.


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16281 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5304 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 6):
And the A380 is far to big for the route.

Not necessarily. It depends partly on how AC and LH wish to split capacity on the route. A few years ago (summer 2007 I think) LH had a daily 744 on YYZ-FRA and AC 2x daily 763 (or one might have been a 333). It was the only summer we had the LH 744 sked into YYZ. If AC needs the 77W capacity more elsewhere, they could downgrade their own metal if LH is able to upgrade from the usual 333/343/346. So the LH 388/748 is possible in a few years once more deliveries are made.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25346 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5228 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 6):
And the A380 is far to big for the route.

Not necessarily. It depends partly on how AC and LH wish to split capacity on the route. A few years ago (summer 2007 I think) LH had a daily 744 on YYZ-FRA and AC 2x daily 763 (or one might have been a 333). It was the only summer we had the LH 744 sked into YYZ. If AC needs the 77W capacity more elsewhere, they could downgrade their own metal if LH is able to upgrade from the usual 333/343/346. So the LH 388/748 is possible in a few years once more deliveries are made.

LH 388 and 748 both are much too premium-heavy for YYZ or any other Canadian markets with 8 F on both and 98 J (388) and 92 J (748). The entire upper deck on the 388 is premium. The AC 77W configuration of 42 J and 307 Y (45 more Y than the LH 748) makes more sense for that market.

The other big advantage of the 77W is the cargo capacity, about 18% greater than the 748 and 22% greater than the 388. If not mistaken FRA-YYZ is AC's largest cargo route.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5196 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
The other big advantage of the 77W is the cargo capacity, about 18% greater than the 748 and 22% greater than the 388. If not mistaken FRA-YYZ is AC's largest cargo route.

What I was thinking without the stats. And one of the most profitable cargo routes I have heard. The reason why AC prefers to put the cargo in its own aircraft belly. That is unless AC/LH or the cross Atlantic UA/LH/AC co-op agreement is extended to cargo so it can go onto a cargo LH flight with full profit sharing. I don't think the cargo agreement is a high priority for anyone at the moment.


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16281 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5068 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
LH 388 and 748 both are much too premium-heavy for YYZ or any other Canadian markets with 8 F on both and 98 J (388) and 92 J (748).

True enough, but as LH accepts the entire 388 and 748 orders, it is possible sub-fleets might have more Y seating down the line.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 1):
Quoting krisyyz (Reply 3):
Obviously FRA is one of, if not the biggest Star Alliance hubs in Europe.

It is the busiest by far.

2012 avg daily departing seats on Star Alliance airlines from European airports:

1. FRA: 83,283
2. MUC: 52,685
3. ZRH: 31,759
4. VIE: 25,732
5. LHR: 25,169
6. CPH: 23,093
7. BRU: 19,802
8. OSL: 19,703
9. ARN: 19,333
10. LIS: 18,508
11. DUS: 16,253
12. TXL: 13,722
13. HAM: 13,229
14. CDG: 12,650
15. ATH: 12,116
16. WAW: 10,815
17. GVA: 9,726
18. FCO: 7,424
19. BCN: 7,304
20. MXP: 7,245


User currently offlineloveofflying From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

LH's a/c are too premium heavy. When I've flown YYZ-FRA or vv on LH, F was usually empty except me.

Plus AC has a large FF base that hope to upgrade on this route. One of the trickiest ones to do so, actually.



Fly the DC10 before you can't!
User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3529 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

What is the reason behind the large cargo feed to/from FRA? We've got full bellies on AC and LH plus the MD-11F all-cargo. From what I can see on the ramp when I am out, there are a lot of pharmacuticals coming into YYZ (ie. lots of envirotainers/coolpacks) from BASF.


Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlineSQ22 From Germany, joined Feb 2012, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2262 times:

What about the rumours about Lufthansa removing first from some aircrafts? As far as I remember the rumours mentioned A343, but maybe they will remove it out of some 744 as well?

How about sending such a bird to YYZ?


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