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Would Airlines Want To Use Stansted?  
User currently offline2008matt From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 130 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8963 times:

I was wondering with all the talk in the news of the Stansted Expansion back in the spotlight, whether any airlines besides the likes of Ryanair would want to use the airport if it did expand? Or would they prefer a new London airport?


Keep calm and up your game!
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8885 times:

They've had all the opportunity and haven't thus far, so I can't see it happening anytime soon. I would imagine they'd prefer a new airport before leaving fortress LHR

User currently offline2008matt From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8802 times:

I do think there is some sort of opportunity for STN to undercut the likes of Gatwick and Heathrow in order to bring in other airlines, but doesn't seem to happen under BAA. I was also surprised by the amount of shops inside the terminal that have shut down over the past few months presumably due to high rental costs?


Keep calm and up your game!
User currently offlineFaddyPainter From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8796 times:

Wasn't the original point of Stansted to be an airport serving full service airlines? I doubt they had a MOL fortress in mind in the 80s.

User currently offline2008matt From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8763 times:

I just find it disappointing that they cannot hold onto the long haul carriers that they seem to secure, but then lose to the likes of Gatwick. Spotting at STN was a lot better with the likes of Air Asia X.


Keep calm and up your game!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7688 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8653 times:
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BAA and their ludicrous costs and poor service.

Be it shops in the terminal, landing charges, whatever, this joke of a company cannot offer an attractive package to new airlines. Ryanair have huge scale on their side to mitigate this to an extent, but the sale needs to go ahead quickly and result in someone with a bit of vision prepared to offer airlines top class facilities at a reasonable cost taking over.

The transport links are good, and the airport is well situated for links to Cambridge, Peterborough and other East Anglian towns, and the journey into central London by train takes around 40 minutes - more than reasonable for a large city.

STN could be so much more than it currently is.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8078 times:

Quoting FaddyPainter (Reply 3):
Wasn't the original point of Stansted to be an airport serving full service airlines?

Yup, big terminal left standing mainly empty. They were quite willing to allow Ryanair to dictate terms as they were desperate to grow the business. A classic example of politicians doing policy and strategy without understanding relevant market behaviour.
Will new owners mean airlines will be super keen to move in? A few certainly but it's still Stansted, in Essex. I't a really nice airport with a train service direct into the City of London, a vast terminal and loads of space. It's not all to do with BAA pricing, it's just not a popular enough airport in the London outbound market amongst higher spending demographics.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7383 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8065 times:

Quoting 2008matt (Reply 2):
do think there is some sort of opportunity for STN to undercut the likes of Gatwick and Heathrow in order to bring in other airlines, but doesn't seem to happen under BAA.
Quoting FaddyPainter (Reply 3):
Wasn't the original point of Stansted to be an airport serving full service airlines? I doubt they had a MOL fortress in mind in the 80s

The terminal at STN was open ed in March 1991.

Its owners, BAA, more than gently twisted the arm of airlines wanting to expand their LHR operations. They refused to allow any new services into LHR requiring the airlines to operate such services into STN instead.

The American airlines in particular objected to this policy. Led by AA they threatened legal action. BAA backed down. The British media hailed the new terminal as "Europe's biggest and most expensive white elephant" as no airline wanted to use it.

This debacle coincided with the appointment in 1991 of one Michael O'Leary, affectionately known as "MOL", as Deputy Chief Executive of Ryanair, a small Irish owned airline founded in 1985 with its main operations centred on DUB and LTN.

MOL saw STN and its new terminal as an opportunity. He negotiated a deal with BAA that basically gave FR a huge discount on STN airport charges for any new route it operated from STN. As time passed so this discount reduced. This gave MOL the leverage he needed to rapidly expand FR's operations. It rescued BAA's investment in the STN terminal. It resulted in MOL being appointed CEO of FR three years later. As far as I know FR still gets a discount on any new services it operates from STN. I am guessing that the foundation of FR's success is almost entirely built on the deal MOL negotiated with BAA back in 1991.

So at STN BAA did undercut their own charges at LGW and LHR. In doing so they converted STN from a planned supplement to LHR into arguably what became Europe's first LCC airport.

As an aside the Telegraph has recently quoted some of MOL's . . . Well, the Telegraph calls them his "most memorable quotes":

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/tr...Learys-most-memorable-quotes.html#

extracted from a new book written by Paul Kilduff, ‘Plane Speaking: The Wit and Wisdom of Michael O'Leary’ that is published by Aurum Press


User currently offlinemal787 From Australia, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 687 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7929 times:

Its not only do airlines want to use Stansted, do passengers want to use it? sure you could make it so that all ops of all airlines serving market area "A" use Stansted to reduce traffic at LHR , but once they get there whats in it for them, poor facilities, links to central London that are not as goood as LHR ( i am talking express rail to central here) hotels / motels for overnight transit passengers . unless the facilities are good people wont use it , unless you are on a budget airline that gives you nothing in the 1st place. LHR may be a pain at times but at least i know at the end of a 24 hr flight from Aust I can be in an airport hotel in 10-15 mins max depending on the buses , or in London in 15 -20( if memory is correct on exprees) . As for the new london airport , i will never see it in my life time and i doubt those 20 yrs younger than me will either , and i am only 53 years young


mal787



Flying cant get enough of it
User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7906 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 6):
Yup, big terminal left standing mainly empty. They were quite willing to allow Ryanair to dictate terms as they were desperate to grow the business. A classic example of politicians doing policy and strategy without understanding relevant market behaviour.
Will new owners mean airlines will be super keen to move in? A few certainly but it's still Stansted, in Essex. I't a really nice airport with a train service direct into the City of London, a vast terminal and loads of space. It's not all to do with BAA pricing, it's just not a popular enough airport in the London outbound market amongst higher spending demographics.

  

I am based off the M4 in Berkshire. I cringe at the thought of any suggestion of flying out of STN. Its a nightmare to get to with public transport. i.e. in then out of London but you can drive and do the M25 and M11 and more often than not will have the journey from hell. Geographically as you say in the wrong place for any full serive carrier IMHO to start and stay there long term. LCC central and thats it.


User currently offlinecipango From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 583 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7874 times:

AA used to fly a 752 to STN daily a few years back. Didn't seem to work for them.

Does anyone know why AA left STN? Poor loads?



Next Flights: DUB-KEF-DUB, DUB-DXB-MEL-DXB-DUB, DUB-MAN-DME-MAN-DUB, DUB-CDG-KUL-CAN-HKG-KUL-CDG-DUB
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7383 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7787 times:

Quoting cipango (Reply 10):
AA used to fly a 752 to STN daily a few years back. Didn't seem to work for them.

Does anyone know why AA left STN? Poor loads?

AA operated ORD-STN for a very limited period between June 1992 and end May 1993.

In early April 1993 AA Senior Vice-President Hans Mirka, announcing the discontinuance of the service, was reported to have said that load factors on the route were consistently low and that the flight did not attract enough premium business travellers. At the time that Mirka announced the discontinuance of this service the British media claimed AA had lost US $ 10 million on this route.

I believe only two airlines operate passenger flights into both LHR and STN.

OS operate a seasonal ski service from STN to INN as well as an LHR-VIE service. This year I believe the flights to INN are due to start in time for Christmas on 22 December.

4U operate into LHR, but on behalf of LH. They operate in their own right between STN and CGN, HAJ and STR.

Airlines like BA and OZ do operate passenger flights to LHR and all-cargo flights to STN. This suggests that cargo is not so fussy as passengers as to which London airport it uses.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7708 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
AA operated ORD-STN for a very limited period between June 1992 and end May 1993.

Yes. But they also operated JFK-STN between October 2007 and July 2008 utilising 763s. This coincided with various so-called all-business operators serving JFK from STN (EOS, MAXjet) or LTN (Silverjet).



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7665 times:

Quoting FaddyPainter (Reply 3):
Wasn't the original point of Stansted to be an airport serving full service airlines? I doubt they had a MOL fortress in mind in the 80s.

I also doubt PANYNJ had a JetBlue fortress at T5 in mind in the 90s. It's interesting how these things work out, eh?

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 6):
A classic example of politicians doing policy and strategy without understanding relevant market behaviour.
Will new owners mean airlines will be super keen to move in? A few certainly but it's still Stansted, in Essex. I't a really nice airport with a train service direct into the City of London, a vast terminal and loads of space. It's not all to do with BAA pricing, it's just not a popular enough airport in the London outbound market amongst higher spending demographics.

Which seems to leave us at LHR or nothing, no?

LHR will have the demographics in its favor till that shifts, which may or may not ever happen.

That would mean that LHR's prices will go up to meet natural increases in O&D demand, or travel options will go down because one can transit lots of other places cheaper, or both, no?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAntarcticDHC6 From Austria, joined Aug 2006, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7445 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
OS operate a seasonal ski service from STN to INN as well as an LHR-VIE service. This year I believe the flights to INN are due to start in time for Christmas on 22 December.

Any source for this information? Could not find anything on the OS website. Thanks!


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4116 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7316 times:

What also drives LHR is the ability to connect to just about anywhere in the world. Its proximity to links to get to London: Heathrow Express, The tube, and the other train that is not Heathrow Express. Plus all the other methods such as the intercity bus service.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinekdhurst380 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7222 times:

This debate happens time and time again, it's poorly located for the countries wealthiest catchments, couple that with bad public transport links and you've got a bad business case for a full service airport before you've even started.

The only incentive to use it unless you're located nearby, is price. My last departure experience was awful, as was arrivals. It's just not fit for purpose, a disorganised chaos.


User currently offline2008matt From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5618 times:

I will second that, but add faster trains and regenerate the terminal then they could be onto a winner, and a good replacement for the proposed new airport.


Keep calm and up your game!
User currently onlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4392 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
I believe only two airlines operate passenger flights into both LHR and STN.

Add TK to the list.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 9):
I am based off the M4 in Berkshire. I cringe at the thought of any suggestion of flying out of STN

The folk in Essex cringe at the thought of going the other way to LHR. With a city the size of London, each airport has its catchement area. Unfortunately for STN, the wealthy ones will probably fly ex LCY via AMS or CDG. While you no doubt have the chavs of Basildon and Tilbury in mind, there is plenty of money in Essex & Cambs.

Quoting mal787 (Reply 8):
poor facilities, links to central London that are not as goood as LHR ( i am talking express rail to central here) hotels / motels for overnight transit passengers . unless the facilities are good people wont use it , unless you are on a budget airline that gives you nothing in the 1st place. LHR may be a pain at times but at least i know at the end of a 24 hr flight from Aust I can be in an airport hotel in 10-15 mins max depending on the buses , or in London in 15 -20( if memory is correct on exprees)

Paddington is hardly "central London" so you pretty much have to get a further tube or bus once you get there for any of the "touristy" areas and is not the nicest area for tourists to walk around in. So to the actual city, its not much quicker than STN when all said and done. Conversely, Oxford Circus is a short ride from Liverpool Street on the Central line, so STN transport links into London are not so bad. The M11 is a great a motorway as you are going to get near London!

Re hotels, there is also a Radisson Blu at STN right next to the terminal which is a 3 minute walk from check out to airline check in desk - cant beat that at many airports and its a pretty nice hotel! There are a couple of others a short bus ride away too.

The facilities are not bad, I dont mean to be rude to anyone but the issue at STN is the pax - many inexperienced flyers not knowing what to do, fighting with FR check in staff for not reading the small print, spread themselves out all over the floor giving us a view of next weeks laundry while they try to remove weight from their bags while already loaded with 8 Stella's at 9am off on their 10 quid stag do to IBZ. Thats what I dislike about STN, but if you had an EK or other "premium" carriers other than FR or U2 Im sure there would be facilities to suit and improvement in atmosphere. After all, it was not like that back in the good old Air UK days.

Im very sure EK could make a daily A330 work ex STN, but then again they gotta fill they A380 at LHR...



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineZaphodB From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4369 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 18):

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 9):
I am based off the M4 in Berkshire. I cringe at the thought of any suggestion of flying out of STN

The folk in Essex cringe at the thought of going the other way to LHR. With a city the size of London, each airport has its catchement area. Unfortunately for STN, the wealthy ones will probably fly ex LCY via AMS or CDG. While you no doubt have the chavs of Basildon and Tilbury in mind, there is plenty of money in Essex & Cambs.

That's an excellent point: LCY almost certainly does siphon off premium traffic from the city that could actually get to STN (or LGW for that matter) by rail quicker than LHR. And to be fair, Staines and Feltham have plenty of chavs too. But, for old times sake I still have to agree that STN is 180deg the wrong direction from London to tap most of the premium traffic.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2566 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4142 times:

If STN really wants to get a major airline to fly there, lets suggest STN lobby the British aviation authorities so to allow a certain airline from the Persian Gulf region (which already flies to LHR and LGW) to use it at least once per day as a stop en-route to/from destinations in the Americas.
STN and that airline should know there are certain markets in The Americas where BA and VS don't feel like flying and are so desperate for a LON flight that would settle for STN service.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1944 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3878 times:
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While we are on the topic of FR and STN, here is an ond TV ad for FR from 1991 not long after FR started flying from DUB to STN back in the day when FR had ambitions of being a premium business airline!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8HNxIukhVk



Next Flights: 27/06/14 CX 178 MEL-HKG; 28/06/14 CX 830 HKG-JFK; 04/07/14 EI 134 BOS-SNN
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9149 posts, RR: 29
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

LH had about 2 o 3 daily flights FRA-STN a couple of years ago, for a relatively short period of time.

The numbers just did not work, same as LGW.

Transport to the city is too expensive from STN and takes too long. Unless one has business in the north east of London, the passengers won't use those flights.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

Quoting FaddyPainter (Reply 3):
Wasn't the original point of Stansted to be an airport serving full service airlines? I doubt they had a MOL fortress in mind in the 80s.

Shortly after the current terminal at STN opened Air UK, Jersey European (as it was at the time), Gill Air, Lufthansa, Scandinavian, El Al, American and maybe more flew from STN.

Frequency and choice of destinations was never the same as from Heathrow, but the big advantage of STN was that the terminal at the time was so quiet and it was new. You didn't have the feeling that there were thousands of passengers all trying to find check in desks, then a seat, coffee etc that you could of at Heathrow.

Alex


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3535 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3750 times:

Quoting cipango (Reply 10):
AA used to fly a 752 to STN daily a few years back. Didn't seem to work for them.

Does anyone know why AA left STN? Poor loads?

AA arrived at STN shortly after EOS & Maxjet, and departed soon after EOS and Maxjet folded. This could of course all be coincidence.

Back to the initial questions, STN is by no means the failure that some of the posts portray, it was initially designed for 15 million passengers per year and quickly ran out of capacity, My recollection is that the terminal building has been extended twice since then, once in the early 2000's and again a few years later.

The problem however is that some of the demand came from airlines who couldn't gain access to LHR and LGW, the move of US carriers from LGW to LHR , and a decrease in BA operations created space at LGW enabled them to transfer flights out of STN.

The bulk of the demand however was ultra low fares courtesy of FR and U2, Personally I knew of lots of people who just hopped on a cheap flight from STN to Ireland, the Czech Republic, Hungary etc for a boozy weekend, the fares were often £10 or even less, accomodation and drink costs at the destination made the weekend cheaper than a night out in the UK, I can recall someone quoting four beers for a euro.

The situation now though is very different, the price of aviation fuel has raised costs of flights, Eastern Europe joining the EU has resulted in rapid price inflation making these trips far more expensive and lastly the financial crisis has had a huge effect of dicretionary spending, inflation and low wage increases have resulted in a far higher percentage of incomes being spent on accomodation and food, weekend trips to Europe are an easy luxury to cut back on.

Apart from FR and U2 I don't think there are a huge number of airlines who "want to use STN" most would prefer LHR or LGW, and have shown this by running up the road whenever the opportunity arises.

Demand does seem to be rising a little and the point will be reached where airlines will be faced with the decision of "its STN or nothing" purely on the basis that STN now has capacity for 35 million passengers and is running at little more than half that.

The danger though for STN is that an extra runway at LHR or LGW in the future could see them left with little more than FR and U2 as airlines rushed to take advantage. Why would BA want to truck freight round the M25 if LHR capacity increased by 50% and they could base their 748F's there ?


25 neveragain : Sounds like somebody has been listening to too much of Michael O'Leary and his anti-BAA tirades! The drop in traffic from 23.8 million in 2007 to 18.
26 CALPSAFltSkeds : OK, I'm not too familiar with London, but see that London's problem looks like a lack of runways at any of the 4 airports LHR, LGW, STN & LUT and
27 COPolynesianPub : Continental also flew 757's from EWR to STN during the time of the UK growth push. Service discontinued shortly after 9/11.
28 VV701 : According to Airport Coordination Ltd a total of 14.1 million passenger seats are on offer to and from STN over the current Summer Season. Of these 1
29 BasilFawlty : Ofcourse you won't find anything on the OS website, this flight (as well as many others between Austria-UK/Ireland every ski season) is operated on b
30 RussianJet : Wrong place for Berkshire, you mean. Exactly. The in to, then out of London is precisely the same as for this half of the country to get to LHR. I am
31 neveragain : Can you be more specific? Are the buildings in disrepair under the control of BAA or are they on leasehold land and therefore supposed to be properly
32 RussianJet : I'm talking general airport material, certainly under BAA direct control. However, like I said, that aspect has markedly improved. I am just talking
33 Post contains images CRJ900 : Gotta love British wit I feel the demographics have changed on our Scandinavian - Eastern European routes too over the past few years. Now, we can ha
34 Post contains images parapente : MINBY's/MP's/Votes = no action. They 'knew' the right location way back in the early 70's (somewhere near Milton Keynes - can't remeber the name now).
35 Post contains images neveragain : Thanks for the follow-up. Sounds like your observations are mostly along the lines of general maintenance and refurbishment spending. I took a look a
36 SKAirbus : Stansted is hell on earth.. Whenever i have been there it has been full of chavs getting wasted in the bar at 6 am, causing havoc and making my life a
37 Lofty : STN is the wrong location: LGW the wealthy South East, remember for Kent, Sussex and Surrey you have the fun and expense of crossing the Thames for ST
38 RussianJet : It's funny. When I lived for a few years in southeast Kent, long before I thought of working at STN, it was still the airport I used most frequently,
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