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Thai - Struggles To Find A380 Role  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25389 posts, RR: 49
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35564 times:

The print edition of Aviation Week for October 8th has a story about Thai and its efforts to find a niche for the A380 in its fleet.

Basically when TG ordered its 6 A380s in 2004 the carrier envisaged deploying them on the dense and profitable routes connecting Europe to Australia via its Bangkok hub.

However in the intertwining years these once historically important routes for TG have "deteriorated" as competitors have successfully eaten into the traffic. For instance London once a prime European market with multiple daily 747s is where "performance has been highly impacted by fierce expansion of Middle Eastern carriers" and is now served by smaller A340 fleet, and can no longer support the 507 seat A380 economically as original envisaged.

Against this back drop per TG VP of Strategy and Business Development Chokchai Panyayong, the company has been forced to find a new role for the A380 in its network.

Thankfully the carrier has seen continued growth and profitability on intra-Asia traffic which has led it to deploy the A380 on short hops to Hong Kong and Singapore initially. The carrier foresees only minimal long haul routes for the A380 such as to Star hub Frankfurt and possibly to Sydney but the majority of future use will be regionally including Tokyo, Osaka and added frequencies to Hong Kong, vastly different from the original intent for the longhaul jumbo.


Certainly some interesting comments. Seems the A380 is a bit of a non-needed aircraft for TG today.


I suspect others like Malaysian might be in the same boat with its A380s arriving at a time its network and global markets no longer perform they did when the aircraft were first ordered.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
125 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35490 times:

Would the changing market have been the reason TG wanted to cancel their A380's some time back?

User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35445 times:

Might Thai consider reconfiguring its A380s to a denser configuration? Right now TG's A380s have 12 F, 60 J, and 435 Y. Or consider changing it for the aircraft they still haven't taken delivery on?

User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35409 times:

Amazing they ordered and waited 8-years for the aircraft.

Yes many things change in a decade.

The once bread and butter routes turn moldy.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35366 times:

I think most carriers are having trouble placing the 380, other than EK. MH certainly will, EU carriers seem to move them all over the place. This is just the beginning. Carriers were having trouble placing their 744s, never mind larger aircraft.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2526 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35264 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Certainly some interesting comments. Seems the A380 is a bit of a non-needed aircraft for TG today.


I suspect others like Malaysian might be in the same boat with its A380s arriving at a time its network and global markets no longer perform they did when the aircraft were first ordered.

I suspect so as well. IMO TG and MH were two "me too" carriers when they ordered this aircraft. Reminds me of the likes of EA, AA, DL and some others back when the 747 frst came out. Yeah, I am old enough to remember that   


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1577 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35190 times:

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 2):
Might Thai consider reconfiguring its A380s to a denser configuration? Right now TG's A380s have 12 F, 60 J, and 435 Y. Or consider changing it for the aircraft they still haven't taken delivery on?

That's always an option, but I'm not sure how much there is in that config without sacrificing up front revenue. 12F can definitely be reduced (seems like 8 is the popular choice nowadays), but 60J seems kinda scrawny as-is. They could probably get away with something like 4F/~75J/~450Y, but I think you run into a problem of how many Y seats (especially discounted fare buckets) can you cram in there and still make a buck on the route? Even if premium demand is down, some of that is F->J with better J product, and I'd venture to say even discounted J tix often do better for the bottom line than Y, even accounting for J being more expensive per pax. So at some point above 435 there is going to be a tradeoff, and a practical ceiling on how many seats are viable.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30993 posts, RR: 86
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35112 times:
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Quoting mercure1 (Reply 3):
Amazing they ordered and waited 8-years for the aircraft.

At the time they ordered it, they needed it. Once they didn't need it, they were not in a position to cancel them so now they have to make use of them where they can.

The A380-800 and 777-300ER do give TG a fresh and efficient long-haul fleet, so that will hopefully start to drive up demand and allow the A380-800s room to grow into.

[Edited 2012-10-15 09:41:25]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25389 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35109 times:

Well in theory if the bulk of the fleet operations will be doing things like short 120 minute hops to places like SIN and HKG one does have to wonder about the configurations.

At the very least a denser and less opulent premium regional product might be more appropriate. You don't need lie flat beds and enclosed F class suites.

As seen on other models TG does seem to like to have configuration variations including a more spartan regional configuration in its fleet.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35071 times:

Ironic that Emirates A380 expansion seems to be killing off the A380 requirement for other airlines. Maybe the world only needs a finite number of A380s, whoever operates them. And this is at a time when UAE only has a quarter of their envisioned fleet....

As for 'me too' airlines (!), why do I immediately think of a certain UK airline?


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35062 times:

I think Thai can stand the competition from thr ME carriers with the 380. When they put them on the routes to FRA and SYD most of the 6 frames will be deployed. It wont be a problem to find regional employment for the rest of the capacity.
Perhaps Thai can gain back some traffic volume over competitive prices and a good new product on the 380. With LH perhaps switching to the 346 to BKK pressure on this route might be a bit decreased.


User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3822 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 35062 times:

Could they lease them out? It seems like EK can't wait to get their orders filled. Thai could lease them out to Emirates, but then again, that would probably make the whole problem even worse.

Soren   



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 876 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 34955 times:

Perhaps TG should have gone for the HGW 590 tonnes version and re-instate the LAX non-stop, that's only about 300 miles further than QF's MEL-LAX that non-HGW A380's do. Meanwhile, wonder if Moscow could work for TG 380's, seeing UN use high-density 744's to BKK.

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 34847 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 9):
Maybe the world only needs a finite number of A380s, whoever operates them

   Especially if they're all pretty much all in Eurasia.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 10):
I think Thai can stand the competition from thr ME carriers with the 380.

I find it a little hard to believe that TG can't compete with the ME carriers. EK has 6 daily BKKDXB flights; TG should be able to overfly DXB a bit more, but not with a 380.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9821 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 34814 times:

I never expected the BKK-Europe to have that much competition to such an extend that the A380 is no longer needed, wow. What are the projections for the coming 5 years for the BKK-Europe or Asia-Europe routes? Can TG make better use of their A380 at a later stage? Can't LHR support a daily A380 flight from TG? TG's first A380 destinations in Europe will be CDG and FRA, is that correct?

A388


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30993 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 34491 times:
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Quoting TC957 (Reply 12):
Perhaps TG should have gone for the HGW 590 tonnes version and re-instate the LAX non-stop, that's only about 300 miles further than QF's MEL-LAX that non-HGW A380's do.

There is no 590t MTOW passenger model (that MTOW was for the Freighter).

The highest current Weight Variant is 573t and that WV was announced years after TG had placed their order.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25389 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 34422 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 3):
Amazing they ordered and waited 8-years for the aircraft.

Yes many things change in a decade.

The once bread and butter routes turn moldy.

Well basically yes in 8-years the industry landscape and its economics have changed.

At least TG is lucky that is sounds like its intra-Asia operations is doing well and and has somewhere to place these aircraft on.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):

I think most carriers are having trouble placing the 380, other than EK. MH certainly will, EU carriers seem to move them all over the place. This is just the beginning. Carriers were having trouble placing their 744s, never mind larger aircraft.

  

Outside of EK, I think the A380 is indeed a niche market machine and will not work for all airlines nor on many routes.'

I think we might indeed see folks like Malaysia struggle also over time.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 5):
I suspect so as well. IMO TG and MH were two "me too" carriers when they ordered this aircraft. Reminds me of the likes of EA, AA, DL and some others back when the 747 frst came out. Yeah, I am old enough to remember that

   yes I well recall those 747 days also. Not just in the US, but overseas in Europe, Africa, etc many picked up small 747 fleets that economically could not be justified.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 10):
When they put them on the routes to FRA and SYD most of the 6 frames will be deployed. It wont be a problem to find regional employment for the rest of the capacity.

A FRA route would only require 2 airframes with about 14-hours free time back in BKK to run some regional stuff.
SYD I heard would be seasonal so that takes one frames.

At the end TG would still have 3.5 - 4.5 frames on a daily basis basically doing short Asia flying. Not sure this is the most ideal deployment of such an expensive aircraft.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 10):
Perhaps Thai can gain back some traffic volume over competitive prices and a good new product on the 380. With LH perhaps switching to the 346 to BKK pressure on this route might be a bit decreased.

I don't think the issue is traffic volume, but revenue. With SK dropping BKK they did not say loads were an issue, but the lack of yields in the market.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 12):
Perhaps TG should have gone for the HGW 590 tonnes version and re-instate the LAX non-stop, that's only about 300 miles further than QF's MEL-LAX that non-HGW A380's do. Meanwhile, wonder if Moscow could work for TG 380's, seeing UN use high-density 744's to BKK.

I think TG would be well served avoiding trying to dump the A380 to LAX. It already has enough problems here with a checkered history.
Also for Moscow, I'm not sure TG really wants to chase after bargain basement Russian tourist.

Quoting A388 (Reply 14):
I never expected the BKK-Europe to have that much competition to such an extend that the A380 is no longer needed, wow.

As I said above, I think the issue is yields. Plumping more capacity into a place like BKK-LHR will only drive it down further.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4784 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 34386 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 14):


I never expected the BKK-Europe to have that much competition to such an extend that the A380 is no longer needed, wow. What are the projections for the coming 5 years for the BKK-Europe or Asia-Europe routes? Can TG make better use of their A380 at a later stage? Can't LHR support a daily A380 flight from TG? TG's first A380 destinations in Europe will be CDG and FRA, is that correct?

You are missing the point here I feel. TG and everyone else knows that there is indeed a huge market between LHR and BKK to support double daily A380s however what TG is trying to emphasize that for this particular market segment the EU pax will not pay any premium what so ever to fly nonstop versus one stop i.e. via IST/DOH/MCT/DXB/AUH/BOM etc. This is why if you check on MIDT or PAXIS, the one stop carriers dominate the CDG-BKK + LHR-BKK market segments and also why BA too has stopped operating double daily B744s to BKK for a while now + AF reducing BKK to 4 weekly B773ERs.

In addition also note that with BMI gone, LHR is no longer a major STAR hub and if you fly to EU via LHR, you are back tracking a lot hence TG pax flying to its offline European cities prefer transiting via FRA instead.

TG should try and see if it can squeeze out an A380 to operate daily flights using this aircraft type to both PVG and PEK as these two market segments will be able to fill the premium classes in particular with high yielding O&D passengers.


User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 34247 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 14):
I never expected the BKK-Europe to have that much competition to such an extend that the A380 is no longer needed, wow. What are the projections for the coming 5 years for the BKK-Europe or Asia-Europe routes? Can TG make better use of their A380 at a later stage? Can't LHR support a daily A380 flight from TG? TG's first A380 destinations in Europe will be CDG and FRA, is that correct?

It's largely down to EK, EY and QR flooding the market with new capacity that didn't exist to that extent when TG ordered their 380s.

AF/KL barely hold ground any more in BKK. SK have already announced they will cancel BKK. I question how well OS, LX or LH are doing to BKK as they fly with with rather premium heavy configurations.


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 33427 times:

I wonder how the A380 will hold up on higher cycle/short stage length utilization over time.

Even Mr. Boeing had to come up with structural changes with 747 to accommodate customers with such conditions.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9821 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 33276 times:

Thanks for the explanations. So this problem is purely a BKK being less competitive issue? Why are airlines such as SQ, CX and maybe even QF still doing well on their routes between Asia/Australia and Europe?

A388


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 33052 times:

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 11):
Could they lease them out? It seems like EK can't wait to get their orders filled. Thai could lease them out to Emirates, but then again, that would probably make the whole problem even worse.

That sounds like a good idea, but you're right, as lessor, wouldn't TG still be responsible for them?

Also: I was just thinking of routes that TG could operate this on, and I want someone who is better acquainted with TG to tell me how such an A380 route would do:

BKK-NRT
BKK-PEK
BKK-PVG
BKK-HKG

I'd assume those would be high-density



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User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12561 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 33053 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
At the time they ordered it, they needed it. Once they didn't need it, they were not in a position to cancel them so now they have to make use of them where they can.

The A380-800 and 777-300ER do give TG a fresh and efficient long-haul fleet, so that will hopefully start to drive up demand and allow the A380-800s room to grow into.

It must be costing TG vast sums for that room to grow, plus to avoid tariffs on shrimp.

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 9):
Ironic that Emirates A380 expansion seems to be killing off the A380 requirement for other airlines. Maybe the world only needs a finite number of A380s, whoever operates them. And this is at a time when UAE only has a quarter of their envisioned fleet....

It's no surprise to many of us.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21531 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 32984 times:

I say configure 4 regionally, still with lie flat for red eyes but in a denser layout and a real F but not a suite, and 2 for SYD and FRA in full config. Syd-bkk-FRA can be done with two planes six days a week, w a smaller AC the other day, and as long as the regional version has lie flat it can sub for a major tech.

The A380 can be an effective regional Asia aircraft if configured right. And that light fuel load frees up cargo density.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 32668 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 17):
In addition also note that with BMI gone, LHR is no longer a major STAR hub and if you fly to EU via LHR, you are back tracking a lot hence TG pax flying to its offline European cities prefer transiting via FRA instead.

That is why TG will schedule the A380 into FRA and why it will deploy its brand new 777-300ER to BRU soon.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 18):
I question how well OS, LX or LH are doing to BKK as they fly with with rather premium heavy configurations.

LH has already said that its FRA-BKK service is under review because of falling yields.

Quoting A388 (Reply 20):
Why are airlines such as SQ, CX and maybe even QF still doing well on their routes between Asia/Australia and Europe?

QF has taken the stance that if you can't beat them, then join them. That is why QF is teaming up with EK next April. I don't think CX and SQ have seen much growth in their Europe-Australia traffic. But these airlines are now carrying more people from Europe to Asia (especially mainland China) and the passenger traffic flying from China to Australia via HKG and SIN makes up for any loss in Europe-Australia traffic.


25 avek00 : Thai never needed the A380 from the get-go, the order was an act of vanity. The airline's problem is not with catering to capacity, but rather in ext
26 A388 : So that will mean that EK will also join QR who is QF's new OneWorld partner? A388
27 behramjee : Please note that EK does actually make a small profit operating to BKK because it gets above average yields + massive cargo + very high S/F in F and J
28 Post contains links LondonCity : The QF/EK link is a joint venture with code-sharing. No alliance membership. In 2011 the most popular route on EY's network was AUH-BKK over which it
29 goosebayguy : I can remember trying to book holiday to Thailand back in 2002 only to find there was not a single seat at all during February. Had to go to Malaysia
30 SQ22 : And the number will be further increasing with AB offering no more direct flights but instead flights via AUH with an EY bird on the second leg to BK
31 Post contains images LAXintl : Indeed. During the 8-year wait for the aircraft, the industry landscape has changed TG's once successful Kangaroo niche has been taken over by other
32 JAAlbert : That's an awful lot of money to spend for something the airline really doesn't need! What does each 380 cost? $300 million? And BKK is too far to fly
33 Flighty : Carriers have had a funny (inexpert) understanding of financial risk. An A380 is a large commitment to fuel and capacity that isn't going to be necess
34 LondonCity : Since its A340-500s were withdrawn from active service a few months ago, TG no longer flies BKK-LAX non-stop.
35 PHX787 : I don't know why they just won't use it regionally now until they can find a suitable market for them. NRT seems to be one of those unsung 380 heaven
36 commavia : I think this is pretty much just a microcosm of the phenomenon many were highlighting years ago when they questioned the underlying economic logic of
37 Byrdluvs747 : Was the A380 designed for high cycle/short haul operations? Also, if more carriers are struggling to place these behemoths, what effect will it have o
38 behramjee : In 2011, EY operated double daily B77Ws to BKK seating 390 pax on each flight approx so multiply it by 4 legs so total seats on offer daily is 1,560
39 Viscount724 : Fleet planning has never been one of TG's strong points. They've operated a few of almost everything built. If they hadn't been so dominated by the g
40 TheSonntag : I flew a Thai 747 FRA-BKK in 2011. I was very disappointed by this plane, worn, old seats, fair service, simply nothing special. IMHO, if they lost ma
41 ACES320 : It all depends on the perception. If you check on Thai culture, vanity and assertiveness are values rather not so popular in their culture, politics
42 jfk777 : Thai is able to use the A380 on long haul regional routes to Tokyo and Sydney which would be long haul over the Atlantic. Peking is certainly a route
43 jumpjets : The TGs 340-600s have around 110 less pax than a 744 - but what is interesting [to me at least] is that the capacity reduction is all in Y class - ar
44 qf002 : I used to make the same argument for SYD, which (until this year) was a 2-3 daily A346, but TG has already announced that we'll be getting their A380
45 HELyes : BKK doesn't look that gloomy to all Europeans. Finnair serves BKK 2x daily in winter and the ticket prices tend to be rather high from HEL, I wish Th
46 brilondon : I don't think that the competition is driving the demand down for the A380 flight, but the poor economy in Europe that has driven demand down that wa
47 tayser : If anything they could drop the midnight 2nd daily (mainly only a few times weekly at the moment - TG462/461) BKK-MEL flight and just upgauge the main
48 Post contains links and images cageyjames : This sort of feels like the 1970s when every airline picked up a widebody without thinking if they really needed it. Remember this? View Large View Me
49 kanban : miss print? only an A.netter would relish a flight from BKK to Tokyo via the Atlantic...
50 jfk777 : You clearly missed the point, while a Bangkok to tokyo flight in Asia is "regional" its only a few hundred miles shorter then "Atlantic long haul" li
51 qf002 : Absolutely agree. My only concern would be the fact that it would mean introducing F back into the market. I'm not sure how much of an issue that wou
52 Post contains images AA94 : Correct. IIRC, the economics of the 345 made it difficult to turn a profit. It's sort of the Hummer of airplanes, a gas guzzler that's incredibly dep
53 ordjoe : Thai having a hard time finding some oversized premium heavy plane to use on routes that are heavy with VFR and leisure traffic, STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!
54 AirMailer : I'm guessing he meant that the comprable distance over the Atlantic would be considered a Long-Haul.
55 Post contains images PHX787 : I love the 345....just wish they made it more economical
56 nethkt : Totally agree. With so much of the 380s, EK is offering sale all year long, plus easy upgrades to Business and First class as seats will always be op
57 Condor24 : Very interesting topic. Emirates, and to a lesser extent Etihad & Qatar Airlines are hammering the legacy carriers on the 'Europe to Australia / N
58 Post contains images gauravpai : That should not be a problem given there are only 12 seats ex India they have some attractive F fares bkk-hkg on the A380 , slightly higher than the
59 sankaps : That is true of the Western hemisphere and the Atlantic for sure. But in the case of Asia-Europe flows and TG, the business case for TG's A380s have
60 IndianicWorld : I do wonder if TG may well look at deploying an A380 into MEL at some stage. Will be interesting to see what role these aircraft play.
61 Post contains images A36001 : If choosing an aircraft like the A380 is for 'keeping up the with the Jones' for prestige or what ever, Thai or any other airline for that matter does
62 gipsy : I wonder why nobody until now did use the A380 as high capacity a/c. Would be interesting to see what happened if e.g Thai would put in 700 Y seats an
63 Post contains images art : It's the biggest and there are not so many routes that need the biggest but if it can be filled without sacrificing revenue per Y seat, the biggest s
64 Unflug : Repeating that mantra doesn't make it true. The competition taking away business from Thai is "driving down averate seats per departure and favoring
65 francoflier : I think that when these airlines finalized their orders for the A380, aviation was on a relatively good phase of the cycle with reasonably good forec
66 infinit : Using their A380s for SIN, HKG and one other route, a medium to long haul one, would be interesting. I think its viable in the Asian market. SQ and JL
67 Post contains images superfly : Regardless of the "me too" factor in the early 1970s for the 747, the demand for larger aircraft picked up after deregulation in 1978. The cocktail l
68 motorhussy : Maybe the A380 will help TG claw back some market share from the Gulf carriers.
69 LondonCity : Maybe. But as has been noted above the market from Europe to Bangkok (the one where the Gulf carriers are doing good business) is mainly leisure-orie
70 superfly : So much talk about TG traffic to Europe. There is another other big continent out there called North America that Thai Airways really should focus on
71 airzim : Let's not forget the fundamental role that TG plays to the government of Thailand, bringing tourist dollars. If EK fills that role cheaper than govern
72 Revelation : Indeed, but the real question is how come Thai didn't factor such things into its plans? Clearly EK's huge order for A380s was known, as well as most
73 Post contains links Stitch : The Bangkok Post recently ran a story on how the new CEO of TG is hoping branding can help improve the airline's market presence: http://www.bangkokpo
74 MaverickM11 : Well either that or unicorns should do it! I think the order was mostly driven by ego, however, BKK should drive enough volume with a small business
75 Stitch : When TG ordered their 6, EK had 42 on order, so perhaps EK's significant investment in the A380 has subsequently pushed some carriers into ordering t
76 Post contains links LondonCity : True. But Phuket (which is a major destination for leisure travellers out of Europe) only appeared on the Gulf carriers' route maps fairly recently.
77 Revelation : One can always keep the airplanes busy by giving away the tickets, but I presume the goal is to make money, or at least to break even, but I can be w
78 LAXintl : Yes indeed there is another continent, but lets also be pragmatic. TG has since the 1981 attempted to crack this nut. Besides LAX, they also tried SE
79 Skyguy : Couldn't be more correct! In the late 80's and early 90's, TG operated a wide variety of aircraft, which included Boeings, Airbus, McDonnell Douglas
80 superfly : I never said "trading". I meant expanding.
81 wingman : I have this vision of Clark placing another 40 orders for the 380 and in the background the power point presentation is playing "Another One Bites The
82 LAXintl : You'd still be getting one type of leisure passenger versus another. Its not like the US-Thailand it a gold pot. Let TG better itself in the larger E
83 anstar : So are we going to see the A380 (TG) at LHR???
84 mercure1 : I think as we see already many of the airlines like Thai are struggling on longhaul service against the Middle East players. Eventually unless if you
85 rheinwaldner : But in this case the A380 senior operator has eaten the lunch of a A380 junior operator. This is not at all about medium widebodies vs large widebodi
86 Viscount724 : I doubt TG has ever been profitable on any of their North American routes. I don't know why they bother. There's little premium traffic and many othe
87 gasman : Well, I am flying TG from AKL-CDG next March, and a big reason for choosing Thai was the opportunity to try F on their A380. And if I'm doing it, othe
88 Revelation : Putting the two statements together, it appears Thai guessed wrong as to whether or not they'd be in the subset of airlines that could run an A388 pr
89 gasman : Undoubtedly this is a factor - but one thing everyone seems to be ignoring here is that BKK and DXB are not exactly in the same place. If you're flyi
90 Lufthansa : Thai needs to focus on CASM and I think there is room here for the A380 to do it, but they may need to revisit their original configurations and plan
91 brilondon : I am not sure the A380 would be a great draw as most people would know what type of aircraft they were on until they read the safety card if they rea
92 Polot : Not only that but the Gulf carriers are using (or will be using) A380s as well, so it is not like Thai will have any novelty over them with their cho
93 gasman : This is often stated, and is almost certainly true when talking about the public perception of an A330 vs an A340 or 777, but in the case of the A380
94 Polot : Ok. But why would someone choose a Thai A380 over an Emirates A380? It is not as simple as saying it is an A380 so they can compete.
95 gasman : Easy. In my case: - Flew AKL-AMS on EK, F class which was an A380 AKL-DXB. The F class hard product was pretty good - although the fake gold trim eve
96 caliatenza : Why has Thai struggled in North America?? Im surprised that SQ only has 4 cities here too...
97 Polot : Thailand is really far a way, doesn't have the strongest business ties to North America (Compared to other cities in Asia such as Tokyo, HKG, SIN etc
98 nethkt : May I say this one more time "Give THAI a break", they haven't started A380 service to FRA and CDG yet and gurus are saying they would struggle. SIN/H
99 gasman : Agree on one level - but on another, Thai don't need it. I doubt the bean counters in Bangkok are shaking in their boots right now. There are worse t
100 Post contains images superfly : ...and the 50+ A380 orders from Emirates is not 'ego'? Thailand is not just a leisure destination anymore. Sure there are a lot of tourist that come
101 caliatenza : But MAS had a pretty strong LAX service. I should know, i flew them several times to India and their flights were always full! What changed in recent
102 caliatenza : So CX can support 3 daily flights from LAX to HKG solely of the expatriate community or mainly because of the strong business ties?
103 infinit : HKG is not in Southeast Asia lol. Its in Northeast Asia beside China. That's slightly but significantly nearer to the US compared to the SIN and BKK.
104 caliatenza : whoops, i didnt notice my geography there. I think Thai could do very well ex North America to Asia. Their Seoul stopover on the LAX-BKK flight gives
105 Aither : There is more passengers between Thailand and Europe than between China and Europe. So the demand is largely there. Yes middle East carriers are stron
106 TC957 : I think TG should consider a SFO A380 non-stop and code share with *A partner UA on the route. Surely with a bit of marketing and the feed at both end
107 MaverickM11 : HKG is a major financial and business center, whereas BKK is not at all. It is, but they can also match that with spending on ego projects that draw
108 LondonCity : Even if the A380 could fly non-stop, these very long flights are not economical in these days of high fuel prices, a fact which TG discovered when it
109 Flighty : This is what people always say. You could also have 750 seat A380s between HNL and LAX or JFK and LAX. But in fact, if you did that, it wouldn't make
110 superfly : That would be a terrific idea! Would the A380 have the range to do SFO-BKK non-stop? Well I guess that's easy when you own the pump.
111 Stitch : She'll take a bigger payload penalty on the return than the outbound, but yes, she can do it.
112 Post contains links and images LAXintl : European tourism is almost 8:1 compared to US. European visitors accounted for 4.7mil travellers while US produced 610,000 in 2010. Its not the guru'
113 LHCVG : A thought just occured to me - could TG do an arrangement like EI has with UA for their A330s? I wonder if that might be at least short-term possibili
114 TC957 : BKK - SFO is virtually the same distance as MEL - LAX , about 20 miles less in fact. Every little helps !! Maybe a YVR service with AC code share &
115 LAXintl : East-West routing are subject to jetstream effects much more than a North-South routing. For instance: SFO-BKK comes out to 7,884nm with seasonal win
116 superfly : Another potential TG destination (not necessarily for the A380) could be Detroit. The Eastern Seaboard of Thailand's automotive and sector is growing
117 Post contains links LAXintl : Thai government visitor statistics. "The main purpose of visit was for a holiday, family visitation, incentive travel, or sports participation for 89
118 Post contains images superfly : Their premium economy seats are/were superb. It's the thin padding on the business class seats that bug me. Heck I like their older A300 business cla
119 brilondon : You don't count in my argument, you are on here.
120 panamair : You may be interested to know that Delta currently offers at least flat-bed J seats across the Pacific (DTW-NRT) on a DTW-NRT-BKK routing, has direct
121 Viscount724 : The market is much too small and YVR-BKK is too far for economic operation unless you have a significant number of premium passengers, which are very
122 superfly : So? How about the extra 6 hour leg to BKK? The coach experince on Delta leaves a LOT to be desired and they're charging for luggage and booze. Also,
123 Post contains links LAXintl : Here is a story about TG refocusing on Japan, China and South Korea as its core strategy in boosting intra-Asia flying and away from long haul service
124 Post contains links KarelXWB : TG unfazed by superjumbo's high costs. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/busi...perjumbos-high-costs-30193639.html
125 trex8 : Thai is an airline in a country which has an aircraft carrier. Nuff said.
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