EWRkid1990 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 168 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5975 times:
I recently did a search on AA for flights from JFK to DFW. The only non-stop is a 737 leaving around 4:30 PM. EWR, has SIX nonstop flights. JFK is supposedly an AA hub, so why so little hub to hub flights?
Longhornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3102 posts, RR: 47 Reply 1, posted (8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5926 times:
There are very few reasons that one would need to connect in JFK coming from DFW, or vice versa. A smattering of secondary destinations in Europe. Traffic to NYC would use LGA or EWR.
ORD also only has 1 flight, and it is timed as well for the few European connections JFK offers that neither ORD nor DFW do. JFK is not a domestic hub, and doesn't funnel a huge amount of feed through it.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6323 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5806 times:
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 1): There are very few reasons that one would need to connect in JFK coming from DFW, or vice versa. A smattering of secondary destinations in Europe. Traffic to NYC would use LGA or EWR.
ORD also only has 1 flight, and it is timed as well for the few European connections JFK offers that neither ORD nor DFW do. JFK is not a domestic hub, and doesn't funnel a huge amount of feed through it.
Exactly. People travelling domestic prefer LGA and even EWR. JFK is also slot controlled so that one DFW flight will be used for some connections but they would rather save the slots for better flights.
On the other hand AA does MIA-JFK 6 times a day. But that is a huge market NYC-Miami.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7411 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5287 times:
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 1): ORD also only has 1 flight, and it is timed as well for the few European connections JFK offers that neither ORD nor DFW do. JFK is not a domestic hub, and doesn't funnel a huge amount of feed through it.
Any passenger needing a connection a JFK from DFW could be flown to LHR and connected to BA.
Josh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 328 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5102 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 2): JFK is also slot controlled so that one DFW flight will be used for some connections but they would rather save the slots for better flights.
LGA and EWR are also slot controlled, so that point falls a little flat. And whether it's held out as a domestic hub or not, JFK sits in the middle of millions of people (in Brooklyn and Queens) for whom it's more convenient to get to JFK than LGA. I agree it's bizarre to have only a single JFK-DFW flight each day. But I certainly wouldn't call AA's current route network optimized, so this is probably one of several possible oversights/idiosyncrasies in the their network.
Who else flies this route anyway? B6? That may be the answer right there. JFK-ATL is a similar int'l hub to fortress hub route, but it has four or five flights a day. It also has no competition from other airlines.
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5030 times:
Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 5): Who else flies this route anyway? B6?
The only other competition on the route DL with a single CRJ-900. I'm surprised neither airline has added more frequencies and/or capacity on the route. Granted, DL probably has less brand recognition nowadays down there so maybe less people think of them when flying internationally, but still, I think that they could fill more than a daily CRJ-900.
Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 5): JFK-ATL is a similar int'l hub to fortress hub route, but it has four or five flights a day.
Yes, but JFK-ATL at least has some sizable aircraft on it.
Not huge aircraft, but definitely ones of a respectable size. Not saying that the capacity of a 738 isn't respectable, but only one a day on a hub-to-hub route is a bit dissappointing.
lweber557 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 27 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4024 times:
I've thought about that too but it kinda makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is that Jet Blue flies DFW-BOS but does not offer DFW-JFK yet JFK is the main hub for B6. You have to connect in Boston. Anyone have an explanation?
usairways787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 290 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4010 times:
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 6): The only other competition on the route DL with a single CRJ-900. I'm surprised neither airline has added more frequencies and/or capacity on the route. Granted, DL probably has less brand recognition nowadays down there so maybe less people think of them when flying internationally, but still, I think that they could fill more than a daily CRJ-900.
Very true, and this flight is always a pig to work, and we usually ask ourselves why not use bigger aircraft. However, last I checked we are more focused on LGA, and offer 6X daily LGA-DFW.
US787
"Pre departure walk around complete, all doors closed, ready for pushback"
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6323 posts, RR: 6 Reply 9, posted (8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3672 times:
Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 5): LGA and EWR are also slot controlled, so that point falls a little flat.
JFK has international flights. LGA does not. AA would rather use 3-4 slots on international flights than flights to DFW. While LGA is a domestic focus for AA so DFW makes sense and for business and visitors LGA is usually better than JFK. Why waste JFK slots to DFW when you can use them to LHR or BCN. That is the point I am trying to make.
Quoting lweber557 (Reply 7): I've thought about that too but it kinda makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is that Jet Blue flies DFW-BOS but does not offer DFW-JFK yet JFK is the main hub for B6. You have to connect in Boston. Anyone have an explanation?
Good question. I am guessing they do not have a slot they want to use for it?
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
JAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1216 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3476 times:
I think the question is - isn't there more O&D traffic between JFK and DFW? Dallas/Ft Worth is a huge population center and a center for commerce. So is NYC obviously. You'd think there'd be a lot of people wanting to travel to and from NYC and DFW. So why does AA, which is the giant in Dallas/Ft. Worth not flying most of the passengers?
foppishbum From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 746 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2290 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 9): JFK has international flights. LGA does not
WestJet flies to YYZ from LGA, Air Canada flies LGA to YUL and YYZ quite frequently in a day. DL also flies to YOW but is ending soon I think. DL goes to NAS now and will fly to BDA soon.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6323 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2067 times:
Quoting foppishbum (Reply 12): WestJet flies to YYZ from LGA, Air Canada flies LGA to YUL and YYZ quite frequently in a day. DL also flies to YOW but is ending soon I think. DL goes to NAS now and will fly to BDA soon.
All pre-clearance destinations as LGA does not have custom facilities. All those flights arrive as "domestic" flights. So yes technically you are right but we are not going to say LGA is an international airport when compared with JFK.
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 10): I think the question is - isn't there more O&D traffic between JFK and DFW? Dallas/Ft Worth is a huge population center and a center for commerce. So is NYC obviously. You'd think there'd be a lot of people wanting to travel to and from NYC and DFW. So why does AA, which is the giant in Dallas/Ft. Worth not flying most of the passengers?
They do fly those flights just out of LGA and EWR. 10x a day LGA-DFW, 6x a day on EWR-DFW, and once a day from JFK. So 17 flights day between between NYC and DFW is not enough?
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
Just 10? I'm showing 15 flights from LGA-DFW today! almost hourly flights.
As for why they aren't running more on the JFK-DFW route, just remember, it may be a hub-to-hub route, but it's still the same market. They offer more reasonable connections to DFW through LGA than JFK.
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2706 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1497 times:
AA has always done this. So did DL up until a few years ago. So did UA when they had a big operation at JFK.
Left the door wide open for a new airline called Blue Jet (or whatever they're going to call themselves...it will never last) to waltz right into JFK and become the largest carrier at the airport. Also allowed them to become the third largest carrier in the region behind UA and DL and ahead of AA.
DLD9S From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 250 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1399 times:
Quoting lweber557 (Reply 7): What doesn't make sense to me is that Jet Blue flies DFW-BOS but does not offer DFW-JFK yet JFK is the main hub for B6.
It could be because of saturation in the market... When looking at DFW to LGA/JFK/EWR, AA has 21 nonstops, DL has 7, UA has 5, NK has 1 and US has 3 direct flights. BOS on the other hand has 8 nonstop flights on AA and sometimes 1 on NK.
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6191 posts, RR: 25 Reply 18, posted (8 months 5 days ago) and read 1319 times:
My experience which is based on working for an international company HQ in Dallas -
As mentioned above - heading to Dubai, South Africa, Pakistan, or most of Europe - the AA flights from DFW to LHR, FRA or CDG was a good connection point.
If AA puts several DFW-JFK flights into their schedule - they are going to lose some of that international business. Maybe not much - but if it is premium front end customers - it will hurt the profitability of their international flights.
modesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2636 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (8 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1144 times:
1x daily DFWJFK on AA is sufficient for connecting traffic to international routes. I would imagine that much of AA's DFW to Europe traffic flows via DFWLHR or some of the airline's other DFW to Europe non-stops. Those passengers connect in Europe via LHR or MAD to points beyond on BA and IB. Therefore, 1x daily DFWJFK is enough as most of the local traffic prefers LGA.
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1001 times:
Quoting modesto2 (Reply 19): as most of the local traffic prefers LGA.
AA (and all carriers at LGA for that matter) should thank their lucky stars that most people prefer low prices over convenience, because LGA in infamous in the NYC area for it's delays. Many people try to avoid LGA (as far as I know) and choose JFK or even EWR if it's possible. Sadly, however, it is not possible all the time. Personally, I try to fly out of JFK or ISP whenever I fly, partially because they are both closer to me than LGA, but mostly because I want to get to my destination on time!
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6539 posts, RR: 11 Reply 22, posted (8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 944 times:
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 6): The only other competition on the route DL with a single CRJ-900. I'm surprised neither airline has added more frequencies and/or capacity on the route. Granted, DL probably has less brand recognition nowadays down there so maybe less people think of them when flying internationally, but still, I think that they could fill more than a daily CRJ-900.
This should tell you that the local market is fairly small (AA only flying a single 737) and even onward international connections is very thin (DL only offering a large RJ alongside American's 738). The real traffic between Dallas and NYC is to Manhattan (LGA).
On the flip, Delta is 7x E170/175s to LGA with AA's hourly mainline service.
[Edited 2012-10-17 19:30:35]
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