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Qatar Airways 787 Gets Coloured Engines  
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18457 times:

Glad they deviated from the recommended norm which sheeple airlines are following, however the grey was also an option initially, but then again why didnt ANA opt for that, hope QR inspires them and others to change as well.


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30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30396 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18117 times:
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With NH's color scheme trending mostly white, white nacelles strike me as a better choice than grey.

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18003 times:

Actually you have a point, maybe they should update their fleet look by painting all engines to match the 787.

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17873 times:

ANA have grey engines on their other types A320, 737, 747, 777.

Qatar demo aircraft at Farnborough had white engines on 787 inline with Boeings recommendation that white is best suited to cut drag or whatever over 787 engines surfices.

Every airline seems to be following that blindly so far, QR are the only exception now besides airlines whose over all livery is white or belly is white and the engines colour wont affect their look such as JAL, Korean Air, Iraqi Airways, Thai, Qantas, Saudia, KLM amongst others.

[Edited 2012-10-16 09:22:20]

User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2224 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17831 times:

I thought in another thread about BA and the colour of their engines on the 787, it was said by someone that the only two colours on the nacelle could be white or grey. Something about other colours like blue needing to be thicker so that they interrupted the laminar flow.

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17772 times:

Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
the grey was also an option initially, but then again why didnt ANA opt for that

No idea.

Quoting steex (Reply 3):
This isn't a 787-specific issue, the airlines could get the engines in any color they wanted on the 787

They can't get any colour they want, and this is specific to the 787.

Quoting 777way (Reply 4):
Qatar demo aircraft at Farnborough had white engines on 787 inline with Boeings recommendation that white is best suited to cut drag or whatever over 787 engines surfices.

White or grey. The Qatar 787 at Farnborough, I think, probably had non-final nacelles.

Tom.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17772 times:

but all 787s are getting white engines including those of operators whos livery has grey engines like ANA, China Southern, Air China and Air New Zealand, though the latter two have yet to appear at painefield.

[Edited 2012-10-16 09:27:11]

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1604 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17727 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 4):
ANA have grey engines on their other types A320, 737, 747, 777.

My apologies - I don't see NH often my way, and I've always thought their engines were white when I see them. Upon closer inspection, I can see the engines are grey in photos, though I could swear I'd seen other NH longhaul birds with white engines. In my defense, at many angles under bright lighting conditions, the difference between the light grey and white is very difficult to notice!

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 5):

I thought in another thread about BA and the colour of their engines on the 787, it was said by someone that the only two colours on the nacelle could be white or grey. Something about other colours like blue needing to be thicker so that they interrupted the laminar flow.

If that's the case, I move to strike my entire previous post from the record due to its uselessness!


User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2234 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 17202 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 7):
all 787s are getting white engines including those of operators whos livery has grey engines

Well not all. QR.


User currently offlinefruitbat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 549 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15529 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 3):
Quoting 777way (Reply 6):

It's a really simple equation:

Lower drag = lower fuel burn = lower costs

If Boeing are saying that white or grey nacelles save a few tens or hundreds of dollars per flight due to laminar flow over the nacelle then that's the colour the airlines will paint them. It's difficult enough to make money as an airline without deliberately making things more difficult for yourself and not taking advantage of the latest technology to minimise operating costs - otherwise these airlines would have bought a 767 or A330!!

If the aethetics then work, it's a bonus. And I bet BA's 787 nacelles will be white.



Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
User currently offlineHOMsAR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14482 times:

Is there something special about the 787's necelles that make white/grey the only acceptable colors?

Is the efficiency/fuel burn penalty for painting the engines other colors any different for the 787 than for, say, any other airplane ever built?

If yes, how so? If not, then why the big deal about the 787's engines and not other types (some of which have more, or larger, engines)?



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6338 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14371 times:

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 9):

It's a really simple equation:

Lower drag = lower fuel burn = lower costs

If Boeing are saying that white or grey nacelles save a few tens or hundreds of dollars per flight due to laminar flow over the nacelle then that's the colour the airlines will paint them. It's difficult enough to make money as an airline without deliberately making things more difficult for yourself and not taking advantage of the latest technology to minimise operating costs - otherwise these airlines would have bought a 767 or A330!!

If the aethetics then work, it's a bonus. And I bet BA's 787 nacelles will be white.

1) IIRC, the laminar flow/paint issue techincally only applies to the first 1/3 or so of the nacelle's length, so an airline could do something like only paint the first 1/3 or the nacelle white (or grey!)
2) It has to do with paint thickness. There is nothing that says the leading paint manufacturers couldn't design a new paint for the nacelles that didn't have to be applied as thick to allow colors on the nacelles...
3) I'll bet QR is just using the Boeing approved grey on their nacelles   



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinenitepilot79 From Turkey, joined May 2008, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14330 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
With NH's color scheme trending mostly white, white nacelles strike me as a better choice than grey

Beautiful. The engine paint would really pop with an opposite-colored scheme of the vertical stabilzer graphic.



En Buyuk Turkiye, Baska Buyuk Yok!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30396 posts, RR: 84
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 14109 times:
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Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 10):
Is there something special about the 787's necelles that make white/grey the only acceptable colors?

Yes. It is required to maintain laminar flow farther down the nacelle.



Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 10):
Is the efficiency/fuel burn penalty for painting the engines other colors any different for the 787 than for, say, any other airplane ever built?

Yes. Doing so breaks the laminar flow, which increases fuel burn.

Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 10):
If yes, how so?

By using these two colors, Boeing in 2006 stated an airline could save 30,000 USG / 115,000 litres of fuel per year thanks to the extended laminar flow.


User currently offlineclickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9601 posts, RR: 69
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12632 times:
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PHOTO SCREENER

Wow, that is a really nice photo     

User currently offlinedavidho1985 From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2012, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 11145 times:
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sound crazy.

You spend multi-million dollars to buy a plane and you can not choose the colour you want freely on one of the most advanced plane in the world.....because it will affect the fuel efficiency lor

:P

[Edited 2012-10-16 18:57:44]

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10889 times:

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 15):
sound crazy.

You spend multi-million dollars to buy a plane and you can not choose the colour you want freely on one of the most advanced plane in the world...

You spend multi-hundred-million dollars to buy a plane explicitly because it is very fuel efficient...that means you need to deal with all the features that were built in to make it very fuel efficient.

Tom.


User currently offlinejbguller From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8871 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 16):
You spend multi-hundred-million dollars to buy a plane explicitly because it is very fuel efficient...that means you need to deal with all the features that were built in to make it very fuel efficient.

Exactly. You don't buy a hybrid car to put a V8 engine in it. You buy a hybrid car because you want to help the environment, save money in the long run due to the efficiency of the vehicle, or because you're a celebrity with stacks of fuel-guzzling cars and you want to broaden your fan base.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15695 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8736 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
With NH's color scheme trending mostly white, white nacelles strike me as a better choice than grey.

The white does look better.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
By using these two colors, Boeing in 2006 stated an airline could save 30,000 USG / 115,000 litres of fuel per year thanks to the extended laminar flow.

...which is definitely enough to put looks firmly on the back burner.

Quoting jbguller (Reply 17):
You don't buy a hybrid car to put a V8 engine in it.

Of course not. That's just silly. You should buy a hybrid that comes with a V8 already in it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinehorstroad From Germany, joined Apr 2010, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8500 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
By using these two colors, Boeing in 2006 stated an airline could save 30,000 USG / 115,000 litres of fuel per year thanks to the extended laminar flow.

with what fleet size? or is it per aircraft?

I can not believe that a) manufacturers can work that precise that a slightly thicker layer of paint would increase the fuel burn by 115000l (we are talking about 110th or 10th of a millimeter of paint. I bet the gaps between the cowlings, the rivets, dirt etc have more impact on the laminar flow) and b) that this only applies to the nacelles, and not to the fuselage, vertical stab etc...


User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1943 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7912 times:
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Quoting horstroad (Reply 19):
I can not believe that a) manufacturers can work that precise that a slightly thicker layer of paint would increase the fuel burn by 115000l (we are talking about 110th or 10th of a millimeter of paint. I bet the gaps between the cowlings, the rivets, dirt etc have more impact on the laminar flow) and b) that this only applies to the nacelles, and not to the fuselage, vertical stab etc...

Wow! Who would have thought? Does this also apply to the B748 seeing as my understanding is that the nacelle design and engines are pretty much idectical on both aircraft? Also, does this mean Boeing have had to develop a special system for applying the paint to the nacelles to ensure that the correct paint thickness is applied? Or are they painted before being attached to the aircraft? Sorry for all the question, but if the thickness of the paint makes that much difference then surely a guy with a bog standard spray gun just wouldn't cut it.



Next Flights: 27/06/14 CX 178 MEL-HKG; 28/06/14 CX 830 HKG-JFK; 04/07/14 EI 134 BOS-SNN
User currently offline3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7163 times:

Most of the posters here point out that the white and gray paint reduce weight and increase laminar flow. My question is why? What is so special about this paint that it does this, and why does it have to be white or gray? What's the science behind it? Is it only because white and grey don't require a primer coat? If this is the case then the weight savings makes sense, but what about the laminar flow, why does only one coat of paint effect the laminar flow by so much? And what of the thousands of engines currently flying with different colours, what makes the 787 engines so special that white and grey has such an advantage with laminar flow and weight?

[Edited 2012-10-17 02:07:34]

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4821 times:

Quoting horstroad (Reply 19):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
By using these two colors, Boeing in 2006 stated an airline could save 30,000 USG / 115,000 litres of fuel per year thanks to the extended laminar flow.

with what fleet size? or is it per aircraft?

Per aircraft.

Quoting horstroad (Reply 19):
I can not believe that a) manufacturers can work that precise that a slightly thicker layer of paint would increase the fuel burn by 115000l (we are talking about 110th or 10th of a millimeter of paint. I bet the gaps between the cowlings, the rivets, dirt etc have more impact on the laminar flow)

Laminar flow trip is pretty binary...the exact thickness you actually get isn't so important as making sure that whatever you get doesn't trip the boundary layer to turbulent. And yes, the OEM's can work out that precisely what the drag change is for laminar vs. turbulent flow over the forward nacelle.

Quoting horstroad (Reply 19):
b) that this only applies to the nacelles, and not to the fuselage, vertical stab etc...

The fuselage and vertical stab weren't built to have natural laminar flow so it's not (currently) a concern for them. The OEM's know there are gains to be had here...that's why Boeing has been testing hybrid laminar flow on the 787 empennage:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...nar-flow-control-for-787-9-358123/

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 20):
Wow! Who would have thought? Does this also apply to the B748 seeing as my understanding is that the nacelle design and engines are pretty much idectical on both aircraft?

Just visually, the 747-8 nacelle doesn't seem to be a natural laminar flow nacelle. The engines and nacelles are not identical between the aircraft (the 747-8 has a smaller fan).

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 20):
Also, does this mean Boeing have had to develop a special system for applying the paint to the nacelles to ensure that the correct paint thickness is applied? Or are they painted before being attached to the aircraft?

They're base painted (i.e. white or grey) prior to installation. In the paint hanger they would apply customer-specific markings like placards.

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 20):
if the thickness of the paint makes that much difference then surely a guy with a bog standard spray gun just wouldn't cut it.

That's why they don't use a guy with a bog standard spray gun to paint it.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 21):
Most of the posters here point out that the white and gray paint reduce weight and increase laminar flow. My question is why? What is so special about this paint that it does this, and why does it have to be white or gray?

Nothing is magic about white and grey, the "magic" is very tightly controlling the surface. Apparently, Boeing choose the two most common and simple to keep as many people happy as possible.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 21):
And what of the thousands of engines currently flying with different colours, what makes the 787 engines so special that white and grey has such an advantage with laminar flow and weight?

The 787 is the only large aircraft, currently, with natural laminar flow nacelles. The magic is very tight control of the mold line (i.e. the aerodynamic shape). If you don't have that built in, which all other current airliners don't, then it doesn't matter what colour you paint them.

Tom.


User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4656 times:

Whilst we're on the topic of laminar flow, I recently got to speak with a Piaggio 180 test pilot. According to him, if the paintwork is damaged or faded, the P180 will lose around 6kts from cruising speed. (costs around $80 000 to put a new coat on P180).

User currently offline3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 22):

The 787 is the only large aircraft, currently, with natural laminar flow nacelles. The magic is very tight control of the mold line (i.e. the aerodynamic shape). If you don't have that built in, which all other current airliners don't, then it doesn't matter what colour you paint them.

OK so if I get you right Boeing has developed the right paint to do this job and so far they're only offering white and grey/


25 tdscanuck : I doubt they developed the paint to do the job...I suspect they picked the paint first then matched the design to the paint. But yes, as the moment,
26 BMI727 : Sounds about right, but it probably makes a great deal of difference where the damage is. The Avanti is designed to have a large amount of laminar fl
27 777way : Wow Brainac! did you bother see who started the topic and its content before replying? But grey has not been chosen by three airlines whose regular l
28 Post contains images KELPkid : Someone at the local GA field has one, and it is incredibly loud on flyover (which doesn't bother me! ). It sounds like an airborne Ferrari, somehow,
29 BMI727 : The Avanti has a unique (and to some, irritating) sound because of its pusher design and the way the exhausts are arranged. Inside, it's supposedly v
30 bikerthai : Maybe it not the overall thickness of the paint that makes the difference. Perhaps it's the consistency of the thickness over the area that you apply
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