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VX Trims Schedules And Staff During Winter  
User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 955 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11965 times:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...t-on-slower-winter.html?cmpid=yhoo

While a schedule reduction of 3% in the winter isn't a big surprise, trying to get your employees to take a voluntary leave or less hours is a tough sell. First hint of troubles at VX?

78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25370 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11789 times:

3% reduction and voluntary leaves seems to be standard procedure these days for the airlines during the winter.

Also keep in mind, VX has no more planes due in the short run (matter of fact only a single new frame till September 2013) so things were going to be flat at the very best anyhow.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinergreenftm From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11647 times:

I'm not sure you can call a 3% reduction a chopped schedule. Just saying.

User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 955 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11464 times:

Quoting rgreenftm (Reply 2):
I'm not sure you can call a 3% reduction a chopped schedule. Just saying.

How about delicately sliced?   Fact is that Cush stated in the email to employees that they were having financial difficulties. This is after spending millions on a training center in Burlingame that won't be getting much use as far as new-hires and for new front-line unifoms just a few months ago.


User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11345 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
3% reduction and voluntary leaves seems to be standard procedure these days for the airlines during the winter.


Name one??? I know for a fact NK, B6, WN, DL,G4 are not doing this. NK even opened a new base in DFW.


User currently offlinergreenftm From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11228 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 3):
How about delicately sliced?

That seems fair  

I feel compelled to state that I am a strong supporter of AS, so this news doesn't really disappoint me, but I still feel like the title was a bit over dramatic. Still 2,600 people have staked their livelihood on the success of the airline, and that never feels good to see some of them lose jobs/hours.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25370 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11208 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 4):
Name one???

How about United and Delta.

Both have provided downward capacity guidance for this winter, and have various leaves of absence programs ongoing.

Southwest also has provided downward guidance for the winter of 2-3% previously. We will probably have updated numbers from them tomorrow at their earnings call.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5577 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11180 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 4):
Name one???

UA, AA, US, and er...

Quoting santi319 (Reply 4):
I know for a fact ... DL ... are not doing this

Yes they are, DL is the airline which does the most seasonal trimming



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17503 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11145 times:

Put a fork in it. They're dunzo.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
3% reduction and voluntary leaves seems to be standard procedure these days for the airlines during the winter.

Not for 'startups'

Quoting santi319 (Reply 4):
Name one??? I know for a fact NK, B6, WN, DL,G4 are not doing this. NK even opened a new base in DFW.

  

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Both have provided downward capacity guidance for this winter, and have various leaves of absence programs ongoing.

DL and UA are also consistently profitable as of late, and have huge baggage from decades of operation and multiple bankruptcies. For VX to start acting like a legacy is in no way good thing.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11105 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 7):
Yes they are, DL is the airline which does the most seasonal trimming

Huh? They added a ton of flights? Even those CUN to almost every major city in the US flights plus transcon and Caribbean....


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5577 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11062 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 9):
They added a ton of flights?

Right, so they added a couple of flights to CUN one a week. On the other hand they always cut a ton of TATL capacity, even discontinuing some routes, through the winter months and on domestic flights they generally cuts capacity (note, capacity, not number of flights per se) by around 3%. This can come about just by down gauging a 76 to a 75 etc, but DL are very proactive at not flying around fresh air during slow periods.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17503 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11006 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 10):
DL are very proactive at not flying around fresh air during slow periods.

They also have a much higher exposure to seasonal markets, particularly in terms of ASMs. While everyone pulls back for lower seasons (even VX, as they have in previous years), and flex up in the summer, for VX to pull down and offer buyouts and to be on track to lose $1B, this is not good, nor 'business as usual'.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5577 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11008 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
DL and UA are also consistently profitable as of late, and have huge baggage from decades of operation and multiple bankruptcies. For VX to start acting like a legacy is in no way good thing.

I'm confused. We can accept that fewer people fly during winter than during summer, right? So surely VX are competing for a smaller pool of travellers. Either they can (a) trash yields or (b) cut capacity. Are you suggesting that it is wrong for a corporation (even a newly established one) to take basic steps to mitigate against the impact of a downturn in consumer spending?

Also remember that they only have 1 aircraft coming in the next 12 months, so they can use this down turn for maintenance which allows them to abuse their aircraft next summer.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10930 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Thread starter):
First hint of troubles at VX?

I would have called the losses they've suffered the first hint of trouble.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineallegiantflyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10685 times:

VX needs to start thinking about making hubs and focus cities outside of California,I know they want to be that California airline but to possibly make more profit they need to expand outside of the state. Maybe FLL? IAD, DTW, PHX, MCO, PHL,MSP are all some of really good options,i know they don't serve some of those but they may in time. Another thing i see them doing is expanding more in JFK,they already have done a great job doing so but maybe they should add more destinations more south,like FLL,MCO,and DFW. I really hope VX gets out of this tough time they are the only more than decent carrier the U.S. Has left.

User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 955 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10683 times:

Let me rephrase that. First 'admission' of trouble.

User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10544 times:

I am empathetic to a lot of VX supporters who love the airline. Their product is excellent, consistent, and evolving. However , from a business model they are a train wreck. Their financials have not improved , many on here can spin it as they want but their markets they choose to compete in are hyper competitive.

VX chose to compete in the LA, SFO, BOS, NY markets which have a ton of high yeilding business customers which was a good choice IMO. They made 2 huge mistakes though - no comp first class upgrades and a weak domestic network with no domestic airline partners , both things high yeilding business travelers look for.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11630 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10278 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 3):
This is after spending millions on a training center in Burlingame that won't be getting much use as far as new-hires and for new front-line unifoms just a few months ago.
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 16):
I am empathetic to a lot of VX supporters who love the airline. Their product is excellent, consistent, and evolving. However , from a business model they are a train wreck. Their financials have not improved , many on here can spin it as they want but their markets they choose to compete in are hyper competitive.

Reminds me of Legend.

I agree that Virgin does have an absolutely top-notch product - after flying them several times, I can definitely personally attest to that. I still continue to question the underlying viability of their business plan, though, because I am not sure how scalable their business model is given the market niche the cater to and the routes they focus on. Time will tell.


User currently offlinezmp0psa From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10168 times:

Not sure where DL is asking employees to take voluntary leaves or less hours is occuring? FA's or pilots? I know the ramp employees in the colder part of the country are heading into the busy season with deicing, and ready reserves in those stations are or soon will be at 40 hours again.

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13598 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9515 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
3% reduction and voluntary leaves seems to be standard procedure these days for the airlines during the winter.

  

It's generally the slow time from mid-September to mid-November where carriers look for voluntary leaves.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3404 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8984 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 16):
VX chose to compete in the LA, SFO, BOS, NY markets which have a ton of high yeilding business customers which was a good choice IMO. They made 2 huge mistakes though - no comp first class upgrades and a weak domestic network with no domestic airline partners , both things high yeilding business travelers look for.

I think they are at a huge disadvantage with their network. A predominantly domestic carrier with hubs on the two coasts results in a limited number of connection opportunities. Their network is basically a bunch of transcons with a few west coast and leisure mexican destinations. B6 has succeeded in that strategy bc they have built up a number of short hauls that can realistically feed the longer flts.

I tried VX on LAX-PHL and I will say I was impressed but not blown away. They offer a unique service which is refreshing in today's industry. They offered dirt cheap fares to complete (especially with AA at DFW) but they are as bad as any other carrier when it comes to "incidentals". The Premium Economy fee at T-24 hours isn't cheap, $15 for wifi, $8 for 1 on demand movie, $10 for a turkey sandwich. Those fees can easily add up.

As a frequent flier VX's poor FF program and limited network do nothing for me and thus I'll stick to my carrier and only fly VX maybe when the price is right.


User currently offlineflyfitch From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8929 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
DL and UA are also consistently profitable as of late, and have huge baggage from decades of operation and multiple bankruptcies. For VX to start acting like a legacy is in no way good thing.

Wouldn't VX offering furloughs instead of voluntary leave make them more like a legacy? I think it shows that they are not like a legacy, since they aren't just cutting people.



My posts are reflective of my views, and not the views of any company or any other individual.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17503 posts, RR: 45
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8780 times:

Quoting flyfitch (Reply 21):
Wouldn't VX offering furloughs instead of voluntary leave make them more like a legacy? I think it shows that they are not like a legacy, since they aren't just cutting people.

When did WN/B6/NK/G4 first start doing either?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5050 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8451 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 4):
Name one??? I know for a fact NK, B6, WN, DL,G4 are not doing this. NK even opened a new base in DFW.

This is the slower season for all airlines. I know F9 reduces frequencies system wide during this time. Almost all airlines do some form of change during this time. Nothing shocking. In fact, 3% is relatively small in comparison to what some airlines do during this time.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 9423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8363 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Thread starter):
First hint of troubles at VX?

nope. I think the last two years of burning money would take care of that.  
Quoting flyfitch (Reply 21):
I think it shows that they are not like a legacy, since they aren't just cutting people.

uhh...what? When has Delta laid-off employees just because its winter?



yep.
25 HiFlyerAS : If you want a constant, steady operation you move your capacity to sunny destinations if your 'summer' routes don't need the same lift. VX flies to SJ
26 NWADTWE16 : Wouldnt they do well in the business markets of SFO/LAX to MEX or is it already overserved?
27 mariner : Although the LCC's do very well to Mexico, almost all of them work with a vacation packager, such as Apple or Funjet - Frontier obviously with Apple,
28 EA CO AS : IIRC, the route authorities in those markets are already allocated to other carriers. They can't just decide to start flying it without it.
29 UALWN : Are these legacies? This just proves the point that VX is acting like those companies you mention, hence not like a legacy.
30 neveragain : Agree completely. I have flown VX, had a perfectly decent experiences, and enjoyed the vastly superior inflight ammenities. But sadly for VX network
31 Deltal1011man : and again I'll ask....when has AA/UA/US/DL laid-off people during seasonal pull downs?
32 MaverickM11 : Huh? They're successful carriers--which I don't believe have ever done what VX is doing. Heck, legacy carriers are successful at this point. VX is ac
33 LAXtoATL : While technically not a lay-off, DL does have seasonal employees which they inactivate during seasonal pull downs which gives DL the same benefit.
34 jfklganyc : It's no different. Except VX hasn't done this before. And let's not fool ourselves: 1. They are losing money ... with metrics getting worse not bette
35 UALWN : They do reduce their schedule during the low seasons. Do they do that while keeping everybody on the payroll, with some earning a salary for doing no
36 MaverickM11 : Of course not, but there's really not much staff trimming during the winter--you can't reduce FAs/Pilots/MX/etc and HQ staffing is pretty much what i
37 UALWN : VX is reducing their flying by 3% in the winter, and reducing staff by an untold amount. How is that unusual? If other companies reduce flying by a s
38 phxa340 : VX's management should be lambasted for one reason and one reason alone - a complete failure to produce any sort of profit. Their losses are GROWING
39 Post contains images MaverickM11 : The Winter reduction is industry standard, and a 3% difference between Summer and Winter is even pretty tame. The reduction in workforce, however, is
40 Post contains images lightsaber : That sums up my opinion. From the OP link: may need to pursue a “major restructuring” to survive, said Hunter Keay, an analyst at Wolfe Trahan &a
41 SANFan : I find this remark from the article to be one of the most telling/revealing/important: And tell us, Mr. Cush, exaclty who's fault is that? Since their
42 UALWN : Then, kudos to VX for managing to do it!
43 phxa340 : I find it difficult to give the management team at VX any sort of kudos. A new entry to a market should be expanding every month , not contracting. I
44 MaverickM11 : That's like congratulating the Titanic captain for lowering the lifeboats, ignoring everything that lead up to that point, that was also under his co
45 brilondon : AC and WS to a lesser extent. They make up for it with Holiday charters. But they shift capacity from other areas so they don't look like they are re
46 Post contains images lightsaber : So true. VX has a serious issue. As already noted, they should be a start up growing every month, even during the slow season. To start adopting matu
47 UALWN : I was being moderately facetious. Indeed, VX seems to have serious problems. However, reducing the winter capacity by 3% may not be the biggest one.
48 Post contains images SANFan : Excellent summation of Virgin's journey, Maverick'! bb
49 PHLwok : Well, they're not making any profit anywhere, so something needs to change. How is attempting to set up mini hubs in others' fortress hubs a good ide
50 strfyr51 : this is precisely WHY the EU wants the USA to relax ownership laws to allow EU Ownership of a USA Certificated airline. Were VS in control of VX like
51 MaverickM11 : I have never understood this; foreign carriers would get absolutely anihilated in the US, whether flying on their own or buying into a carrier. VA sa
52 phxa340 : Why ? (Not calling you out - just curious as to your thought process because I assumed the opposite)
53 dfambro : They already codeshare with Virgin Australia Even if the Virgins all networked together, they'd still be a very small network VX still has the proble
54 Polot : It is not as if the US carriers will suddenly become profitable, or have better service if foreign carriers invested in them. The underlying issues t
55 phxa340 : Right but if foreign investors want to invest in a sinking ship - thats their choice. I just see it as it can really only help vs hurt unless they pl
56 Polot : Why do you assume that they will pick managers that are better/more qualified/more knowledgeable than the existing people running the airlines? Ameri
57 HiFlyerAS : Cush is remarking about not having the ability to increase flying to sunny winter destinations but the best they can come up with is a once-weekly fl
58 phxa340 : Re-read what I said ... I said the exact opposite. VS is just one example. IAG is one group that could so some good for AA ... look what WW did for B
59 OOer : Someone please just put down this dog. It's been a great ride VX...but it's time for the fairytale to come to an end. You haven't even been close to a
60 airliner371 : Lets say VX shuts down. What happens to their DCA-SFO slots?
61 EA CO AS : They'd revert back to the DOT for re-bidding by other carriers.
62 Post contains images nwaesc : They can also flex up/down ready reserve employees' hours as needed. *Bonus points for the word "inactivate."
63 dbo861 : Speaking of DCA-SFO, why doesn't VX allow people to connections in SFO to the DCA flight? It looks like they're relying solely on O&D traffic at
64 DeltaMD90 : How would more foreign ownership allow the airline to be less poorly managed? I agree with some other posters... it's time for a major change or to sh
65 mariner : Quite an interesting network, though. You can't do that on Southwest, either. Southwest may have the advantage of a much stronger domestic network, i
66 Post contains images Deltal1011man : I'm sure other airlines have temp. workers. But Delta also brings in more rampers up north during the winter. Delta also normally does LOA....again t
67 Post contains images mariner : Is it ironic that the new bloke who appears to be turning things around at Air Pacific is an American who used to be at Virgin America? Delta seems t
68 Deltal1011man : maybe. I think that is the main problem at some (American) and somewhat of a problem at some(Untied/Delta) err...Delta has been doing nothing but get
69 mariner : If Delta is making money, what is the problem with getting smaller? Perhaps those things are part of the modern equation? Time was when RJ's were see
70 F9animal : The plug could have been pulled long ago on VX. We all know that. The fact that they are still flying, and still fighting speaks for itself. While som
71 XT6Wagon : Or gain exceptional loyalty of the people flying those routes so that empty seats are filled with people who would in peak times found no seats avali
72 Deltal1011man : .....why are they getting smaller? less capacity clearly shows the overcapacity in the marketplace..... it clearly is. this issue is it shouldn't be.
73 mariner : I'm not saying there isn't over-capacity in the market - but there has been over-capacity in the market for as long as I can remember. And if there i
74 EA CO AS : Here's the thing, though - an airline is comprised of many divisions, all working together to keep cash coming in. For years, most U.S. carriers lost
75 Deltal1011man : and the problem is....well you know all about it. When F9 and UA were somewhat coexisting in DEN together what happens? Southwest comes in and is jus
76 Post contains images mariner : LOL - I've deliberately avoided that airline because I am so closely associated with it, but I'll just say there is another way (or other ways) and i
77 Post contains images Deltal1011man : the good thing that is happening to the airline world is the super LCC is finally starting to see how bad it sucks to be all grown up(and not living
78 mariner : I agree with that. mariner
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