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CLT/FNT/PWM/ROC To WN In April 2013  
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6834 posts, RR: 14
Posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12635 times:

It will be interesting to see if this means that service to ATL ends for these cities because if it continues and the code share is not active, the Atlanta service will be empty.

"Our April 2013 schedule, to be published next week, will reflect four more AirTran city conversions at Charlotte, North Carolina; Flint, Michigan; Portland, Maine; and Rochester, New York."
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/southw...ports-third-quarter-104500398.html

146 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12585 times:

I assume CLT, PWM and ROC will have the BWI service transition to WN. And, FNT might gain BWI service. So remaining also is CAK which I assume might gain BWI service, linking BWI to all WN markets within 500 miles that are not driveable within 4 hours. On the edge of that range is Pittsburgh that is 4.5 hours, and Norfolk that is also 4.5 hours, where I wonder if WN will transition to more ATL service over BWI service for those markets.

User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12431 times:

DAY is still without WN BWI service

User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22298 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12374 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
It will be interesting to see if this means that service to ATL ends for these cities because if it continues and the code share is not active, the Atlanta service will be empty.

From the publicly-available data, it does not seem that CLT-ATL is a great performer, and the lack of connections on the ATL end will just worsen the picture. A combination of BNA/TPA/MDW/BWI or some such would cover most of the connections available over ATL, thoguh.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12311 times:

For PWM I can see something like:

4x BWI
1x MCO

Maybe drop 1 BWI for 2 MDW if they are lucky

ROC I can see:

4x BWI
2x MDW
1x MCO
1x TPA

Perhaps loss of ATL in leu of better BWI/MDW



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1986 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12300 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 2):
DAY is still without WN BWI service

I wonder if the premium seating is why DAY is still FL...There is a lot of business traffic between DAY and BWI.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6834 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12276 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
It will be interesting to see if this means that service to ATL ends for these cities because if it continues and the code share is not active, the Atlanta service will be empty.

From the publicly-available data, it does not seem that CLT-ATL is a great performer, and the lack of connections on the ATL end will just worsen the picture. A combination of BNA/TPA/MDW/BWI or some such would cover most of the connections available over ATL, thoguh.

I don't doubt it goes away, but BNA will be crappy. Maybe HOU?

What does FNT get? MDW? I don't think that would work. BWI/Florida offers no West.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22298 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12233 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
but BNA will be crappy.

Why? BNA-RDU does fine.

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
What does FNT get? MDW? I don't think that would work. BWI/Florida offers no West.

Much like ORF-BWI, FNT-MDW isn't that long as the crow flies but it's not a fun drive because there's a body of water in the middle, so it might be all right.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 970 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12221 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
What does FNT get? MDW? I don't think that would work. BWI/Florida offers no West.

How about FNT-BNA? There's at least likely to be some local O&D traffic related to the auto industry.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7341 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11941 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
What does FNT get? MDW? I don't think that would work. BWI/Florida offers no West.

That would be my guess - FNT will likely keep ATL and get something like 2x MDW.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):

Much like ORF-BWI, FNT-MDW isn't that long as the crow flies but it's not a fun drive because there's a body of water in the middle, so it might be all right.

FNT will almost certainly get MDW. Yes, for some O&D but also for the connecting options it opens up to the network.

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 8):
How about FNT-BNA? There's at least likely to be some local O&D traffic related to the auto industry.

No, not really for FNT. FNT itself is a GM plant town, a shell of what it once was. That being said the automotive related air traffic is going into DTW.

FNT is a draw is for the northern suburbs, and the Mid-Michigan area, including a lot of traffic from the MBS and LAN catchment areas because of the lower fares.
Due to the location of Chrysler's HQ FNT is a viable option, but not really so for Ford, GM or Toyota and most suppliers which are closer to DTW. However Chrysler does not have many ties to the Nashville area.

WN is not going to start BNA-FNT.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6834 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11812 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
but BNA will be crappy.

Why? BNA-RDU does fine.

It's had two carriers before and it didn't last. It's just not a market that will respond well to fare stimulation. Neither is a very sexy destination to interest travelers.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
FNT-MDW isn't that long as the crow flies but it's not a fun drive because there's a body of water in the middle, so it might be all right.

Well, the water isn't exactly in the middle. It's not that far out of the way. It's not like MKE.

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 8):
How about FNT-BNA? There's at least likely to be some local O&D traffic related to the auto industry.

Nope.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
That would be my guess - FNT will likely keep ATL and get something like 2x MDW.

If it keeps ATL and the code share isn't ready during the booking window (it won't be) it'll be awful. Listening to the conference call Kelly explicitly said that as part of the cutover, ATL would be losing some existing destinations. They didn't say FNT/CLT explicitly, but I think that was implied. Perhaps FNT will get BWI/MDW and Florida. I think as a duplicate of their other area airport it makes little sense.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22298 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11759 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 10):
It's just not a market that will respond well to fare stimulation.

Why, then, is the BNA-RDU local market 80 percent larger than the BNA-CLT local market? For comparison, MEM-CLT is actually larger than MEM-RDU with similar fare levels.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2817 posts, RR: 30
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11716 times:

Of course this is speculative, but I suspect none of those four cities will be connected to Atlanta by Southwest in the new world. (PWM doesn't have ATL service now.)

Charlottle carries almost nothing but connecting feed in ATL -- just a handful or two of locals per flight.

Rochester and Flint have more local traffic to/from ATL, but the AirTran flights to the ATL hub rely heavily on connecting flows beyond Atlanta.

All three of those cities can have their connecting flows served by "better" Southwest hubs...and by "better" I mean that they are either stronger for local traffic, or closer, or both.

Perhaps a better way to look at it is this. If AirTran didn't serve Charlottle, Flint, Portland and Rochester at all, and Southwest decided to come in, what cities in their combined (post-merger WN+FL) network would rank highest for service? If Southwest was to announce Greensboro, Lansing, Burlington and Syracuse were starting this summer, would ATL be high on the list of likely markets? Probably not.

The transition of ATL from a big connecting comlpex to focus primarily on local traffic fits these changes. If you look at the nonstop routes dropped (and not replaced by Southwest) in the past 2 years or so, most of them are somewhat smaller local markets from ATL...BMI, FNT, CHS, MDT, MLI, PHF, BKG, CLT, ROC, SRQ. Historically they relied heavily on connecting feed. Outside of a few...Pensacola, Wichita, Akron, perhaps Raleigh and Dayton...most of the remaining FL or WN markets at Atlanta are large enough local markets to justify nonstops without heavy reliance on connections. And some of those may survive based on special circumstances (like DAY picking up enough metro Cincinnati traffic, or PNS not having a better option to connect to the northern tier of destinations.)


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2177 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11684 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):

Much like ORF-BWI, FNT-MDW isn't that long as the crow flies but it's not a fun drive because there's a body of water in the middle, so it might be all right.

FNT will almost certainly get MDW. Yes, for some O&D but also for the connecting options it opens up to the network.

Unfortunately, I think this would cause AA to drop FNT-ORD, so in effect, FNT would be getting WN, but losing AA.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
FNT is a draw is for the northern suburbs, and the Mid-Michigan area, including a lot of traffic from the MBS and LAN catchment areas because of the lower fares.
Due to the location of Chrysler's HQ FNT is a viable option, but not really so for Ford, GM or Toyota

FNT is an option for GM employees who work in Pontiac and / or live north of Pontiac / Auburn Hills. Even for Birmingham / Bloomfield Hills, the home to gate time is about the same to go to FNT as it is to go to DTW, because although it takes a little longer to drive to FNT, once you get to FNT, it's much quicker to go from your car to the gate because FNT is a more compact airport than DTW.

However, most of the GM / Chrysler / Nissan traffic is locked into Delta because of corporate contracts and / or a preference for flying on DL in order to earn Sky Miles. I don't think WN will be able to take much of this traffic away.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2177 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11650 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 10):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
FNT-MDW isn't that long as the crow flies but it's not a fun drive because there's a body of water in the middle, so it might be all right.

Well, the water isn't exactly in the middle. It's not that far out of the way. It's not like MKE.

True, but the traffic on the south side of Chicago and in Northwest Indiana is horrendous, in large part because everyone going from cities east / northeast of Chicago to Chicago or cities west / northwest of Chicago has to go around the south end of Lake Michigan.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2918 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11588 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
For PWM I can see something like:

4x BWI
1x MCO

As a WAG goes I have a hunch you may see a BOS-PWM. flight. Excluding traffic it's about a 1.5 hour drive.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
ROC I can see:

4x BWI
2x MDW
1x MCO
1x TPA

You have to keep in mind BUF another WN city is nearby.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11534 times:

CLT-MDW
CLT-DEN
CLT-STL

This is great news, well worth the wait

[Edited 2012-10-18 11:49:37]

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7341 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11524 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 13):
FNT is an option for GM employees who work in Pontiac and / or live north of Pontiac / Auburn Hills. Even for Birmingham / Bloomfield Hills, the home to gate time is about the same to go to FNT as it is to go to DTW, because although it takes a little longer to drive to FNT, once you get to FNT, it's much quicker to go from your car to the gate because FNT is a more compact airport than DTW.

However, FNT generally is not as desirable when it means a connection versus a nonstop out of DTW.

Quoting enilria (Reply 10):
Perhaps FNT will get BWI/MDW and Florida. I think as a duplicate of their other area airport it makes little sense.

FNT is disproportionately a leisure / low fare airport. I'm not sure of how BWI would be more desirable than ATL service. FNT does not have a lot of ties to the Balt/Wash area. FNT does to a lot of Florida / Sun destinations, which would continue to be better served over ATL.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 14):
True, but the traffic on the south side of Chicago and in Northwest Indiana is horrendous, in large part because everyone going from cities east / northeast of Chicago to Chicago or cities west / northwest of Chicago has to go around the south end of Lake Michigan.

FNT-MDW yes would get some O&D but its opening up the network to points west, not really so much the nonstop service. Driving to Chicago from Southeastern Michigan stinks.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6834 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11477 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Quoting enilria (Reply 10):
It's just not a market that will respond well to fare stimulation.

Why, then, is the BNA-RDU local market 80 percent larger than the BNA-CLT local market? For comparison, MEM-CLT is actually larger than MEM-RDU with similar fare levels.

Well, one huge difference is that US is flying CLT how many times per day? ...and isn't WN the only carrier flying RDU-BNA? The point is that it would be too much service for a market like BNA-CLT. Doesn't mean they won't do it, but I wouldn't choose it.

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 12):

Of course this is speculative, but I suspect none of those four cities will be connected to Atlanta by Southwest in the new world. (PWM doesn't have ATL service now.)

I thought that was strongly implied in the conference call.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 13):
Unfortunately, I think this would cause AA to drop FNT-ORD, so in effect, FNT would be getting WN, but losing AA.

Perhaps

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 16):
CLT-MDW
CLT-DEN
CLT-STL

I'd be shocked if there is no Florida non-stop.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
FNT is disproportionately a leisure / low fare airport. I'm not sure of how BWI would be more desirable than ATL service.

I just don't see them flying FNT-ATL on the WN code with no code share. I'm hearing they picked these cities for cutover because they do not require code share which tells me that none will have ATL service as Knope2001 also suggested.


User currently offlineblr380 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11476 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 15):

I don't see BOS-PWM happening in the near future. American Eagle tried it for a while before the airlines started boosting flights out of PWM (Almost 400,000 more passengers using PWM in the past decade), which is remarkable. Also, note that Amtrak serves multiple daily routes along with Concord buses that go to BOS.
As stated in the other thread, the airport is intensely seeking MCO route (snow birds) as there is a huge demand. I feel BWI, MDW and MCO will be the most reasonable additions to the WN network.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22298 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11417 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 18):
he point is that it would be too much service for a market like BNA-CLT. Doesn't mean they won't do it, but I wouldn't choose it.

Any new WN route from CLT is going to have "too much service," no?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6834 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11384 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
Any new WN route from CLT is going to have "too much service," no?

Yes and no. There are a lot of markets that can be stimulated and are high fare. DEN/LAS/MDW/some Florida are all markets that could probably support LCC service. Maybe HOU. I guess I'm talking more about ability to stimulate demand relative to capacity. I just don't think BNA-CLT can be grown that much and has plenty of service. Those other markets I mentioned can be grown more.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22298 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11366 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
I just don't think BNA-CLT can be grown that much and has plenty of service.

But you'd agree, wouldn't you, that BNA-CLT can be grown to BNA-RDU levels?

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
Those other markets I mentioned can be grown more.

Probably so, but yields won't be as good. WN's average fare on BNA-RDU is $0.38/mile. Try getting that to Chicago or Florida, let alone Denver or Las Vegas.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinetjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2380 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11357 times:

I'm very surprised GRR didn't make this list. So will GRR be the last non WN converted domestic FL station with flights only to BWI (not including FL's Florida routes) with no flights to ATL from GRR?

Hope this isn't a bad omen. We really need to retain a network LCC.



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7341 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11327 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 18):

I just don't see them flying FNT-ATL on the WN code with no code share. I'm hearing they picked these cities for cutover because they do not require code share which tells me that none will have ATL service as Knope2001 also suggested.

Oh, I missed that point. Interesting if they do end up dropping ATL.


25 RL757PVD : BUF is not exactly "nearby" both BUF and ROC serve their own respective markets amd there is no reason whatsoever that ROC can not support 4x BWI 2x
26 airliner371 : I thought I would say congratulations to you. I was waiting for you to comment. SWA recently ended AirTrans CLT-MCO. Doubt we will see florida servic
27 usflyguy : FNT-ATL would only connect to MCO on WN as MCO is the only Florida station served from ATL on WN.
28 KingAir200 : Well I'm sure the KCDA will come up with some ridiculous deal to attract WN. Then, of course, they'll turn around and complain that DL and UA don't o
29 PWMRamper : Glad to see PWM transitioning! Too bad it's right as I'm leaving the airport... I think MDW is a must. UA has zero competition to Chicago, and WN coul
30 airliner371 : With this their are now just 14 AirTran cities with no SWA service.
31 GentFromAlaska : With 55 statute miles separating the two airports ROC & BUF meets the nearby criteria. That's less than a lot of peoples daily commute. What does
32 rocANDtpa : Great news for ROC. ROC took a hit in capacity in the fall and winter schedules. DL cut a flight to ATL and to DTW. UA cut two flights to ORD and one
33 southwest737500 : For CLT 3X BWI 3X MDW 2X DEN maybe 1X LAS 2 or 3 BNA Maybe 1 or 2 HOU or STL
34 airliner371 : I think that is pretty fair. I think you should be saying 2 or 3 STL and maybe 1 or 2 HOU or BNA though. What we do know is SWA has requested a total
35 Post contains links KarlB737 : In light of all this discussion I received an EMail from Southwest suggesting I go look at their updated route map. How does what you see on their ro
36 airliner371 : Anytime you hover over an FL city it shows non-stop and connecting cities AirTran serves from the destination.
37 ouboy79 : It probably won't be updated until Monday morning after the flights are loaded and officially announced.
38 USAirALB : As for CLT, I highly doubt we will see Florida service...LCCs have tried CLT-Florida and none of them could make it work. FL has done MCO and B6 has d
39 MSPNWA : CLT is great news for me. I think April will be just in time next year for a trip there.
40 zippyjet : I'd also throw FLL into that mix.
41 GentFromAlaska : PWM needs to promote the vast amount of seafood available in PWM to WN such as the Harbor Fish Market and other on or near the custom wharf. By the w
42 PSU.DTW.SCE : Does not help there is limited WN connectivity at BOS, they would be better off connecting over a different WN city like BWI that has far more access
43 MSYtristar : BOS-PWM is way too short of a market for WN to even consider. They have been pulling out of super short hauls as of late as well. BOS-PWM is a short d
44 Post contains images wnflyguy : I don't see with 4 cities at once coming on line with a lot build up. I see service at : CLT. 4 BWI, 2 MDW OR 3 BWI,2 MDW, 1 DEN. FNT, 2 MDW, 2 BWI PW
45 drerx7 : I hope you mean 2 HOU instead of MDW twice?
46 ouboy79 : No. He said 4x BWI and 2x MDW -OR- 3x BWI, 2x MDW, and 1x DEN.
47 iowaman : I don't see BOS-PWM happening either. It's only 95 miles by air, much shorter than anything else WN flies. If anybody should fly BOS-PWM it probably
48 HPRamper : I don't either seeing as CLT will be a very small station and as such WN will want to maximize utilization by funneling everyone through closer hubs,
49 Mexicana757 : Of the four cities converting to WN from FL I see three being connected to MDW. MDW-CLT 2x MDW-ROC 2x MDW-FNT 2x PWM will connect to MDW probably with
50 enilria : Yes, but after you divide per flight it looks much worse than RDU. That is odd if I'm right that they were picked because they didn't need code share
51 iowaman : On the Airtran side, MEM does not have any service to Florida. On the Southwest side, CHS does not have any Florida flights. AirTran did serve CHS fr
52 ChrisNH : At Manchester, many Southwest flights carry a hefty amount of Lobster and other seafood bound for western markets. It's very lucrative. PWM-MDW would
53 southwest737500 : I agree but I'm thinking they will be a little more aggressive with 3X CLT-MDW, that's just my thinking
54 Post contains images ouboy79 : Just be happy you finally got your wish and we are converting CLT over early next year. Don't plan on anything too excessively aggressive right away.
55 CompensateMe : From FNT, MDW is a much better choice for WN-FL to serve than ATL: potentially larger local market, more connectivity options & shorter trip times
56 Cubsrule : I don't know that the customer mix or local percentage would be that much different for AA and WN in a mature FNT-CHI market. Remember that if fares
57 Post contains images airliner371 : This sounds like you just recently heard someone say WN and NK serve a different type of consumer, which is true. But not every airline goes for a di
58 CompensateMe : AA has historically recorded significantly higher average fares than FL, NW, etc. ex-FNT, so I think it's safe to presume it's getting a different ty
59 SurfandSnow : I wonder if there is any rhyme or reason to the full conversion of these 4 markets. This move will leave only GRR, ICT, MEM, PNS, and RIC as the FL-on
60 ChrisNH : PWM suffers from its seasonal appeal. Between Labor Day and Memorial Day, it's much quieter than it is between Memorial Day and Labor Day. But if PWM
61 N200WN : I think your numbers are too high (I think everyone is overestimating the number of flights at all four cities). I'm guessing no more than three flig
62 usflyguy : CLT is not GSP... Expect to see more like RDU at the very least.
63 Cubsrule : I don't understand why that segment doesn't drive down to DTW and get a nonstop with a front cabin the whole way. Is it the fact that AA's domestic F
64 GentFromAlaska : Although ROC is technically not a new city WN wrote me a few years ago telling me they will not open a new city unless they can fly to into the airpo
65 N200WN : That would make BKG and DSM anomalies, which I don't think they are with these new smaller FL cities. There's been a paradigm shift to allow for this
66 usflyguy : And DAY.
67 CompensateMe : Why do people living in Orange County utilize SNA instead of taking the nonstop from LAX? FNT has established itself as a different market than DTW,
68 Post contains links Cubsrule : More and more, they don't . . . 2013 SNA Slot Allocation; AS/DL/F9 Reduce, WN Adds (by LAXintl Oct 1 2012 in Civil Aviation) With WN on a route, that
69 CompensateMe : There's always going to be a market, even if it adjusts itself somewhat. AA's had only 15-20% local traffic, they mainly carry beyond traffic on the
70 airliner371 : A few years ago is right. There is no minimum anymore. PWM doesn't have ATL now, WN wouldn't add this kind of route until they at least have a codesh
71 ChrisNH : PWM does have two DL MD-88s a day to ATL, so the route is being served.
72 airliner371 : I'm sorry, I meant on FL. My apologies.
73 ERJ170 : And I'm not understanding why y'all are thinking CLT is going to jump out the gate at RDU levels.. How many years did it take for RDU to get to the l
74 airliner371 : Have you seen WN's gate usage? WN does about 9-10 flights a day per gate. I do agree starting off it will be about 8-10 flights with more to come bec
75 PSU.DTW.SCE : FNT is a unique airport that pulls traffic in from a very large area. 1. Low fares - FNT markets itself as Michigan's low fare airport almost exclusi
76 airliner371 : For the 4 new destinations... CLT: MCO, HOU, BWI, MDW ROC: MDW, BWI, MCO, TPA PWM: BWI FNT: MCO, TPA, BWI (See interactive route map)[Edited 2012-10-2
77 ouboy79 : Looks like DAY-MCO is added on the WN side now as well.
78 ouboy79 : To tag on to this... CLT: 1x HOU, 1x MCO, 2x BWI, 2x MDW FNT: 1x MCO, 1x TPA, 3x BWI PWM: 3x BWI ROC: 1x TPA, 2x BWI, 2x MCO, 2x MDW All existing FL
79 airliner371 : I also noticed BOS-MCI is starting.
80 iowaman : Surprised not to see MDW from FNT. PWM-MCI is also showing up, along with PWM-GEG and SMF. Looks like PWM is loaded incorrect into the route map.
81 kkephart13 : PIT-HOU is starting as well.
82 iowaman : CLT-BWI 569 8:00A 9:20A N/S 1336 6:35P 8:00P N/S BWI-CLT 1973 8:25A 9:55A N/S 3313 7:45P 9:10P N/S CLT-MDW 185 7:30A 8:30A N/S 832 3:40P 4:40P N/S MD
83 flyinryan99 : Pretty darn good schedule.
84 Post contains links iowaman : Looks like we got everything new except BWI-PUJ on FL (Pending government approval). I also noticed MCO-MSP is gone. http://www.swamedia.com/releases/
85 GentFromAlaska : They must have confused PDX with PWM.
86 PWMRamper : Happens all the time with passengers, so why not!
87 USAirALB : Nice little schedule for CLT. Though I am a bit surprised there was no DEN announced. I'm confident that CLTDEN can support another carrier, UA flew t
88 Cubsrule : TZ had the wrong aircraft (far too big) and FL didn't have the hub. I don't know if it'll work, but TZ and FL's failure don't tell us much. It will b
89 United_fan : Nice to finally get a new carrier here in ROC. Though I am surprised there is no LAS or FLL service. I assume ATL will be cancelled ,leaving it all to
90 USAirALB : What was the difference in seats between WNs 73G and TZs 738? I cannot imagine it was a substantial number. Plus, TZ exit from CLT was the same time
91 Cubsrule : 38 to the old configuration, 32 to the new. Remember that TZ was 4x for much of its time in CLT, too, which never made much sense. I don't know, but
92 USAirALB : That is true. Yeah I recall MDWPIT as well, I think MDW-IAD/BOS/BWI/LGA were flown as well. I just hope US doesn't kick WN out of the CHI market.
93 southwest737500 : I'm am very surprised that they didn't bring CLT-DEN CLT-MDW will be a huge success
94 globalflyer : I for one hate to see what WN is doing to ATL. All it is going to do is allow DL to raise its fares in all of the dropped markets. DL is probably ecst
95 ouboy79 : It has been pointed out that a market like FNT-ATL was primarily a gateway to connect to Florida. What is the point of having a nonstop on the route
96 southwest737500 : Hey don't take this the wrong way I am very excited to finally get WN service in CLT What are the chances of CLT-DEN
97 Post contains images wnflyguy : BKG is not being discontinued. It was a glitch in the system should be reloaded by tomorrow. Wnfg
98 Mexicana757 : Nice to have CLT and ROC connect to MDW. Looks like BWI got all the love this time around. Hoping WN/FL decide to start PUJ from Chicago. As Cubs said
99 ChrisNH : Well, I was completely wrong about PWM. I suggested that they'd get service to MCO and MDW, and they didn't. Maybe eventually they will, but I was way
100 Cubsrule : No, it was well before that. I flew it in March, 2003, and I think it had been operating at least several months by then.
101 CompensateMe : I'm surprised by the choice of BWI from FNT. Unsurprisingly, westbound connection options are poor (for example, just one option to LAX and none to SF
102 ouboy79 : Perhaps it is an indication that connecting traffic is much stronger going to the east than west? I agree that it would be good to see a westward opt
103 Kcrwflyer : Three flights per day. I assume WN will be opening a station with their own employees for these three flights? I'm interested to see what wil become
104 airliner371 : I don't see how FNT-BWI has anything to do with the future of WN. And the connecting options are greater at BWI then ATL so that argument goes out th
105 PWMRamper : FL hasn't had ATL service out of PWM in quite some time. DL, on the other hand, has actually increased lift substantially out of PWM in the past year
106 Post contains images CompensateMe : Did you study "(you) understood" in grade school? My implications were on WN's future in FNT. And if WN preferred to shuttle east, west, southbound,
107 airliner371 : I'm gonna let someone else come in to comment but I'm gonna stick with the side of the executives that have all the numbers.
108 CompensateMe : We regularly speculate on adjustments to air services on a.net. Sometimes our reasoning is accurate, sometimes it's not. Some of us work, or have wor
109 airliner371 : *****please delete*****[Edited 2012-10-22 21:16:04]
110 Post contains images wnflyguy : Along with EWY,BKG,DSM PWM ,FNT,ROC,CLT will be all 3ed party contract CSA's,Ramp and Ops. Only the Station manager and supervisors will be WN staff.
111 CompensateMe : No data in the world will decisively suggest that FNT-BWI will be successful; network planning still requires educated guessing. FNT-NYC (flown with
112 ouboy79 : Doubtful. He'll never get it through IAM.
113 airliner371 : Are there any WN cities pre merger (no DSM etc...) that are already 3rd party?[Edited 2012-10-22 21:41:30]
114 Kcrwflyer : Sometimes with minimal amounts of education, I'm sure. Very interesting if true........... I understand why you and other employees don't like this..
115 737tanker : At the last contract that Ground Ops signed, which was pre-merger, only new cities were allowed to have contract employees. So all pre-merger WN citi
116 Cubsrule : I'm not sure how the fact that a connection exceeds 2 hours renders it "questionable." Certainly, DL offers many 2+ hour connections over ATL by virt
117 WA707atMSP : PSU, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason FNT-LGA failed was because of the rivalry between AA and NW. If I remember correctly, AA
118 PSU.DTW.SCE : That was one of the contributing factor. AA barely even broke a 40% LF on the route, on a 37-seat RJ on FNT-LGA. AA actually does quite well on DTW-L
119 enilria : Regardless, I was right. They did add MCO. MEM is not a WN station yet.
120 blr380 : Finally, its nice to see WN metal coming to PWM - although we were hoping for a bit more than 3X to BWI. Well, it was nice to see DL upgrading to A32
121 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : I believe this is because WN offers non-stop service to both MCO and MDW from nearby MHT. http://www.southwest.com/flight/routemap_dyn.html That is w
122 Flytravel : It seemed like a valid deduction given that in not too long past, every small WN station had atleast 5-8 WN departures. 5x or 6x to just BWI seemed l
123 Cubsrule : STL would probably be a better choice than BNA. It's a larger station and likely a larger local market.
124 United_fan : Hopefully this is just the start of WN ops in ROC. Other than MDW,there are no new destinations from here . If BUF can support 2 LAS flights a day and
125 GentFromAlaska : I didn't know that. I thought BNA as a focus city would larger than a station be it STL or another large city. I suppose it's a play on the Saint Lou
126 MSPNWA : For the local ATL-FNT and ATL-ROC traffic, DL will like the move. But how big are those non-stop markets? Probably tiny. WN will be a stronger compet
127 drerx7 : Which from a travellers perspective is not to bad considering how hellacious a bad onnection can be at ATL. Why? Exactly. To put it in perspective. A
128 CompensateMe : There's plenty of three and four-hour connections. You'd really have to be chasing junk traffic (e.g. people willing to endure a 10-hour trip to Denv
129 Post contains images ouboy79 : Already answered, but new stations only and require a certain level of flights. Once it goes above that it is back to WN staffing. /golfclap? I think
130 KBUF : BUF also has nonstops to FLL on WN (in addition to PHX and LAS).
131 PSU.DTW.SCE : Yep, the big draw was connecting traffic over ATL, for both FL and DL. Yeah, junk traffic especially when there are nonstop options and better connec
132 Cubsrule : For travel to the east coast, I'm not so sure how the other hub options - IAD, DCA, PHL EWR and one or more of the NYC airports - are "better." Certa
133 PSU.DTW.SCE : True. I think the statement more so applies to points west. Actually, after looking at the route map, BWI provides nonstop service essentially to the
134 Cubsrule : I think that's exactly the point. No one expects WN to pick up more than a passenger or two on BWI-LAX or BWI-DEN. At smaller stations, WN is (and re
135 Flytravel : No longer LGA or NY, since BWI-LGA/EWR is to be cut. Connections to BOS and the areas north of New York seem better through BWI than routing through
136 flyiguy : I've only heard of EWR being cut to BWI, Not LGA. When did they announce the LGA cut ? FLY
137 sdoyon : In the extension prior to the EWR cut. Ends 1-5-13.
138 CompensateMe : Ultimately, when you peak at the markets WN's selling tickets on, nearly half have really miserable (including many 3-4 hour connections for trips le
139 Cubsrule : Let's take a look (I used Monday, April 22 outbound and Friday, April 26 inbound) ALB: Connections range from 55 minutes to 2:25 ATL: Connections ran
140 iowaman : I would suspect eventually ROC may get a DEN, LAS, or PHX flight. Either of the three provide awesome connectivity to the west coast stations. LAS is
141 CompensateMe : Re-read what I wrote.. 2.5+-hour connections on trips of approximately 600-miles in duration are hefty, especially given the fair number of 3- and 4-
142 Cubsrule : There aren't many 2.5 hour connections, and those connections are no different from what the competition offers. I checked FNT-ORF on DL for the same
143 AviationAddict : When I was with Cape Air back in '07-'08 there was a lot of talk around the BOS station that the company should try to add this route because a lot o
144 United_fan : Like I stated,if BUF can do 2 x LAS , ROC can do one,even with the Canadain overflow. Many people drive from the ROC area to BUF to catch the LAS n/s
145 CompensateMe : I'm not arguing the merits of whether it's OK or not. WN is flying 143-seat jets on this route, heavily relying on connections. DL's operating 50-sea
146 Cubsrule : On what facts do you base those two assertions?
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