Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.  
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 483 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10619 times:

We all know Pan Am wanted domestic routes in the pre-deregulation era but never got those except routes to Hawaii and Alaska.
Pan Am applied for certain international routes but went to other airlines. New York(JFK)-Mexico City nonstop-awarded to Eastern Airlines,Miami-London-awarded to National Airlines,In the late 1970s Atlanta-London opened up and Pan Am applied for it.The route was awarded to Delta instead. Now if Pan Am would have gotten ATL-London Pan Am would have used Heathrow-LHR.Delta got the route wasn't Delta required to use Gatwick at that time? Any other routes Pan Am applied for and got passed up you know of?

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9950 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10553 times:

Yes, DL was constrained by the treaties at that time, so they had to go ATL-LGW. Matter of fact, all the London routes that were awarded to DL were to LGW. I don't remember what year they were able to get their first LHR route.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2797 posts, RR: 30
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10410 times:

DL (along with all other U.S. carriers except UA and AA) was not able to offer service to LHR until the advent of U.S.-E.U. Open Skies in 2008. The Bermuda II treaty originally limited U.S.-LHR services to BA, Pan Am, and TWA. Ultimately UA purchased the Pan Am LHR route authorities and AA did the same from TWA - right around the same time in the early 90s - while VS became a designated carrier under the bilateral as well. Bermuda II even specified which U.S. airports could serve as gateways to LHR, meaning that nonstop London services from some U.S. markets could only use LGW. I do not believe ATL was ever an approved LHR gateway, as BA traditionally served ATL from LGW. If that was the case, Pan Am would probably have had to use LGW or lobby the American and British governments to amend the bilateral prior to starting service.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9950 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10288 times:

This paragraph comes from the Delta Heritage Museum website......


http://www.deltamuseum.org/M_Educati...ltaHistory_Aircraft_Boeing_747.htm


"747s were also used on the Delta/Pan Am interchange, flying from Atlanta and Washington, DC (Dulles) over Pan Am's trans-Atlantic routes to London-Heathrow and Frankfurt on April 25, 1971. According to company magazine The Delta Digest, Ship 105 "caused something of a sensation when it first appeared in London and Frankfurt, on the Delta-Pan American Interchange…the first Delta 747 ever seen in Europe."


The interchange was first started in 1963 with DC-8s.

[Edited 2012-10-21 09:49:56]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2037 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10251 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 3):

I was just about to mention that. DL may have gotten the route authority, but they operated it as a interchange with Pan Am giving them access to LHR. There are plenty of photos in the database of DL 747s at Heathrow:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ray Pettit
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Fitzgerald



User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9950 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10177 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 4):
I was just about to mention that. DL may have gotten the route authority, but they operated it as a interchange with Pan Am giving them access to LHR. There are plenty of photos in the database of DL 747s at Heathrow:

Actually, the interchange started in '63, with DC-8s. The 747s were put on the interchange, starting in '71.......7 years before the ATL-LGW service started.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7329 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9867 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

JFK-MAN 3 weekly back in 1986/1987

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5221 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9802 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
We all know Pan Am wanted domestic routes in the pre-deregulation era but never got those except routes to Hawaii and Alaska.

PA didn't get everything they applied for in Trans-Pacific markets either. Unable right now to look up specifics, I know there was a big case before the CAB sometime in the 60s or 70s for new Pacific authority including Hawaii; Pan Am applied to begin service to SAN (definitely to HNL and possibly more) but was denied. The HNL-route ended up in the hands of WA and UA. There are some who look back on that decision and wonder what might have happened if SAN had been awarded PA service back then?

bb


User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 483 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9614 times:

In the 60s and 70s only TWA and Pan Am could use LHR-Heathrow. Everyone else had to use LGW-Gatwick. When
National started Miami-London non stop in 1970 how did they avoid getting stuck at LGW and could use LHR?


User currently offlinemainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2086 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9561 times:

Quoting david_itl (Reply 6):
JFK-MAN 3 weekly back in 1986/1987

Remember the Pan Am booking office at the bottom of King St? Yet never any service, from what I recall.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9509 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 5):
Quoting Polot (Reply 4):
I was just about to mention that. DL may have gotten the route authority, but they operated it as a interchange with Pan Am giving them access to LHR. There are plenty of photos in the database of DL 747s at Heathrow:

Actually, the interchange started in '63, with DC-8s. The 747s were put on the interchange, starting in '71.......7 years before the ATL-LGW service started.

NW had a similar interchange operation with Pan Am for a while, which accounts for photos of NW aircraft at LHR. Routing MSP-DTW-BOS-LHR-AMS.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mick West
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mick West



User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9950 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9439 times:

I also remember DL operating MIA-LGW, in '91 and I think they picked this route up in the PanAm deal.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9420 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 7):
PA didn't get everything they applied for in Trans-Pacific markets either. Unable right now to look up specifics, I know there was a big case before the CAB sometime in the 60s or 70s for new Pacific authority including Hawaii; Pan Am applied to begin service to SAN (definitely to HNL and possibly more) but was denied. The HNL-route ended up in the hands of WA and UA. There are some who look back on that decision and wonder what might have happened if SAN had been awarded PA service back then?

Going back a little further, in 1957 Pan Am requested authority to stop in PDX and SEA en route to Tokyo, to compete with NW via the shorter "Great Circle" route via Alaska. The application was denied. At the time all Pan Am flights to Asia were via the much longer route via HNL.

[Edited 2012-10-21 14:00:08]

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9172 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting doulasc (Reply 8):
In the 60s and 70s only TWA and Pan Am could use LHR-Heathrow. Everyone else had to use LGW-Gatwick. When
National started Miami-London non stop in 1970 how did they avoid getting stuck at LGW and could use LHR

The LHR PA and TWA LHR thing was with the Bermuda II which "Gatwicked" everything after 1977, there was a Bermuda I treaty which the UK "renounced " in 1975 or 76 because the US airlines were too powerful. National started flights to LHR because in 1970 or 71 that was the London Airport. National only flew Miami to London not a whole route system like PA or TW. With the Bermuda II National was grandfathered at LHR but if another airline had gotten Miami to London other then PA ot would have flown to LGW.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2868 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9126 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
if another airline had gotten Miami to London other then PA ot would have flown to LGW.

Just like EA had the MIA-LGW route they flew leased DC-10's on, instead of their L-1011's due to range issues.



Rule number One, NEVER underestimate the other guys greed
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2178 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8983 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13): if another airline had gotten Miami to London other then PA ot would have flown to LGW.
Just like EA had the MIA-LGW route they flew leased DC-10's on, instead of their L-1011's due to range issues.

Eastern's route authority to London was totally separate from NA / PA's.

In 1970, National and BOAC began MIA-LHR nonstops. The CAB reserved the right to award MIA-London to another airline as a condition of the NA / PA merger, and had a full route case. Eastern went so far as to lease at least one 747-200 (I think from Qantas) that was painted in full hockey stick scheme, to prove to the CAB they had suitable equipment to fly to London. Ultimately, the CAB allowed PA to keep the ex-NA route, in part because PA would be allowed to serve LHR, but other airlines would have to serve LGW.

In the early 1980s, the US and UK agreed to allow a second airline from each country to fly to London, on the condition that both countries' airlines serve LGW. The UK awarded their authority to Laker, and the US initially awarded their authority to Air Florida. After Air Florida's collapse, the route was re awarded to Eastern.

In Dec 1989, Texas Air sold this route to American as part of the South American route sale. American would have been required to serve LGW. However, before the route was transferred, PA and TW sold most of their London routes. PA's MIA-LHR route (and DTW-LHR) were not included in the UA sale. However, UA subsequently signed a separate agreement to take over MIA-LHR temporarily. The CAB conditioned the transaction on UA serving LGW, with AA replacing PA / UA at LHR.

I don't know whether UA ever served MIA-LGW; the route (and Detroit-London) subsequently passed to DL as part of Pan Am's transatlantic route sale.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9950 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8943 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
and Detroit-London) subsequently passed to DL

And Detroit-London went on to be passed to NW.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2037 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8450 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
I don't know whether UA ever served MIA-LGW; the route (and Detroit-London) subsequently passed to DL as part of Pan Am's transatlantic route sale.
UA operated MIA-LHR on a temporary basis for a few months. PA took over the route again, moved it over to LGW (No longer having the right to fly to LHR) and eventually DL got it when they purchased Pan Am's transatlantic network. Here is a very short blurb from when Pan Am retook the route. I don't think UA ever operated scheduled flights to LGW, just some charters in the 80s.

[Edited 2012-10-21 17:43:02]

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8394 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
Eastern went so far as to lease at least one 747-200 (I think from Qantas) that was painted in full hockey stick scheme, to prove to the CAB they had suitable equipment to fly to London. Ultimately, the CAB allowed PA to keep the ex-NA route, in part because PA would be allowed to serve LHR, but other airlines would have to serve LGW.

Several photos of the QF 742 (VH-EBD) in Eastern livery here. It would have been N371EA had it gone to Eastern.
http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-747/vh-ebd/vhebd.html

They had arranged to obtain two QF 742s. The other was VH-EBC, due to become N372EA.
http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-747/vh-ebc/vhebc.html

Ironically, both aircraft later went to People Express and then Continental.


User currently offlineJosh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 355 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8359 times:

And to clarify, the route authorities were between cities--not airports. The Bermuda treaties imposed the limits on which airlines could operate to which airports. For example, PA had authority to operate JFK to London--not JFK-LHR. When DL bought PA's transatlantic network, that included JFK to London, but they operated it as JFK-LGW (before discontinuing it, I believe) because DL couldn't use LHR. JFK-LHR on DL metal only started in 2008 when OpenSkies went into effect.

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2037 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8282 times:

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 19):
When DL bought PA's transatlantic network, that included JFK to London, but they operated it as JFK-LGW (before discontinuing it, I believe) because DL couldn't use LHR. JFK-LHR on DL metal only started in 2008 when OpenSkies went into effect.

I don't believe the JFK-LON authority was part of the sale with DL. UA purchased PA's Heathrow routes with the exception of the aforementioned Detroit and Miami. Delta purchased the rest of PA's transatlantic network including the FRA hub (except the inter-German services, which LH bought) and bought the JFK-LON rights from UA in 2006.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9950 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8284 times:

I remember when the MIA-LGW route case came down to Air Florida and Delta, and of course Air Florida got it but I don't believe they ever flew it.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2037 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8223 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
I remember when the MIA-LGW route case came down to Air Florida and Delta, and of course Air Florida got it but I don't believe they ever flew it.

They operated it for several years. They got it in late 1980 and I believe operated the route up till they went bankrupt in 1984. According to this newspaper article it came down to Air Florida and World.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8141 times:

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 19):
And to clarify, the route authorities were between cities--not airports. The Bermuda treaties imposed the limits on which airlines could operate to which airports. For example, PA had authority to operate JFK to London--not JFK-LHR. When DL bought PA's transatlantic network, that included JFK to London, but they operated it as JFK-LGW (before discontinuing it, I believe) because DL couldn't use LHR. JFK-LHR on DL metal only started in 2008 when OpenSkies went into effect.

You seem to be implying that DL somehow bought PA's rights JFK-London. I don't think that's correct as the JFK-London route was one of the 5 Pan Am routes sold to UA. How could PA sell the same route to two carriers?

My recollection is that DL bought the Detroit-London route from Pan Am (DTW wasn't part of the UA purchase) and of course had to operate to LGW since they weren't permitted to use LHR then.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8141 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
In Dec 1989, Texas Air sold this route to American as part of the South American route sale. American would have been required to serve LGW. However, before the route was transferred, PA and TW sold most of their London routes. PA's MIA-LHR route (and DTW-LHR) were not included in the UA sale. However, UA subsequently signed a separate agreement to take over MIA-LHR temporarily. The CAB conditioned the transaction on UA serving LGW, with AA replacing PA / UA at LHR.

I don't know whether UA ever served MIA-LGW; the route (and Detroit-London) subsequently passed to DL as part of Pan Am's transatlantic route sale.

UA did fly MIA to LHR in the spring of 1991 before PA restarted the flights to LGW. AA flew Miami to LGW when it took over the Eastern operations at MIA, it flew to Gatwick for about 2 years. AA almost by accident got LHR because TWA didn't sell it them and Delta couldn't fly Miami to LHR since it operations were LGW based by the Bermuda II. AA got MIA to LHR for free, but did pay TWA dearly for ORD, JFK, LAX and Boston to LHR.


25 RyanairGuru : That's correct. ATL, DFW and IAH (and maybe some others) could not be flown from LHR until Open Skies. BA operated to all 3 from LGW and AA operated
26 PITrules : PIT-LGW was another route PA applied for. They were beat out by either CVG-LGW (DL) or RDU-LGW (AA)
27 tymnbalewne : BA had an IAH - DTW - LHR and then IAH - ORD - LHR routing in order to get around the requirement IAH serve LGW.
28 mayor : IIRC, DL never DID have rights to LHR, from anywhere, until Open Skies. They were restricted to LGW by the previous treaty. The only way anyone would
29 NWADTWE16 : Just remembered PanAm operating this with A310 aircraft in the early 90's or was it late 80's, cant remember now...but from todays perspective of 'co
30 triple7man : Because of the number of comments here; I may be repeating myself. Nevertheless, Pan Am applied to fly DFW-LHR. In December 1977 I was at the home of
31 jfk777 : PAN AM would have been Gatwicked too, no matter they flew to LHR from six other cities at the time. DFW was not a LHR designated city. Remember when
32 WA707atMSP : It is not wierd given the amount of Detroit - Europe traffic generated by Ford, General Motors, and their suppliers. This traffic was historically no
33 Viscount724 : FRA-LHR was also a 727-200.
34 NWADTWE16 : Great info on this! THANK YOU
35 delta2ual : I worked the DL flight (DTW-LGW) as a NYC based reserve in 1994. I can't remember how long after that DL sold it to NW. We also had IAD-FRA at that t
36 Josh32121 : Yes, y'all are correct. I forgot they bought them from UA afterward. The point remains the same, though. DL ended up with an authority to fly JFK-LON
37 mayor : I was thinking that DL got the original LHR slots from AF, giving them the right to fly the route.....???[Edited 2012-10-22 21:15:58]
38 jfk777 : Delta's original LHR slots were from KLM and AF, the slots they were given allowed for 2 daily JFK to LHR flights but one was a day flight with the o
39 mayor : That's what I thought. I don't believe that DL ever flew JFK-LGW......the PanAm acquistion had nothing to do with it and it was all predicated on get
40 OzarkD9S : They didn't as part of the Pan Am TATL deal. They did buy the NYC-LON authority from UA and did operate JFK-LGW until they secured LHR access when op
41 Viscount724 : DL started JFK-LGW service on November 15, 2006 and moved to LHR on March 29, 2008 after Open Skies.
42 jfk777 : I have always been surprised Delta never applied for JFK to LGW, since its such a huge route. It was a hole in DL's JFK route map from November 1, 19
43 Post contains links EXMEMWIDGET : Didn't Air Florida have it's own (wet lease) DC-10's for this run? http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/5/6/6/0223665.jpg[Edited 2012-
44 steeler83 : I thought BA beat them out directly tho. TW used to fly PIT-LGW I think before 1980, but I think you knew that already.
45 Post contains links PITrules : BA started in 1985, but this was a one stop flight to LHR. PA applied for nonstop LGW service in 1986 (LGW because PIT was not a nonstop LHR gateway
46 WA707atMSP : TWA seriously considered PIT-LGW in 1979, but never operated the route because of the runup in oil prices and the recession. USAir also seriously con
47 Post contains links PITrules : TWA did in fact operate PIT-LGW, 3x weekly nonstop with L-1011s; the other days of the week it operated to LHR via PHL. http://news.google.com/newspa
48 Josh32121 : The route authorities were between cities--not airports. DL bought NYC-LON from UA--not JFK-LHR. UA was able to fly JFK-LHR because they had bought P
49 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Air Florida operated 5 leased DC-10-30s in the early 1980s (not more than 4 at the same time). April 1982 route map. Before their demise in 1984 I th
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Did Pan Am Ever Fly DC-8s On Pacific Routes? posted Fri Oct 19 2012 20:19:47 by doulasc
Travolta's Jet Used For Pan Am Show? posted Sun Feb 26 2012 08:13:13 by contrails15
UA Routes From Pan Am A Waste? posted Fri Dec 17 2010 08:13:17 by eastern023
Pan Am 727 Routes In The 60s And 70s posted Sat Dec 4 2010 16:41:46 by Tomassjc
Pan Am DC-7C Routes, Late 50s/early 60s posted Mon Mar 29 2010 01:47:49 by Jackbr
Why Did Pan Am Turn To Ua For Assets, Snubbing Aa? posted Sat Jul 18 2009 14:09:03 by 727LOVER
Pan Am 707/DC-8 Routes? posted Sat Apr 18 2009 16:53:24 by Tango-Bravo
Normal Age For Most Pan Am Crew On Diffrent A/c? posted Sat Sep 13 2008 18:47:32 by 747400sp
Pan Am's Paris And Rome Routes posted Wed Sep 10 2008 14:12:41 by 747buff
A Treat For All Of Us Pan Am Fans posted Sat Aug 23 2008 15:30:15 by 747400sp