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AF Opens CDG-MSP (May 21 2013)  
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12069 times:

Starting May 21 2013, and until Sept 2013, Air France will operate a 5 X Weekly nonstop flight between Paris CDG and Minneapolis with an A343.

MSP will be the 11th destiantion in the U.S for AF.

AF694 CDG 13h50 ---> MSP 16h05 Daily except Sa / Mo

AF697 MSP 20h00 ---> CDG 11h25 Daily except Sa / Mo



68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2868 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12073 times:

Wow, it makes some sense, just surprised by this considering the lack of pre-announcement chatter, Good for AF & DL.


Rule number One, NEVER underestimate the other guys greed
User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1999 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12058 times:

Is this in addition to or in place of DL's flight?


Good goes around!
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12056 times:

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 2):
Is this in addition to or in place of DL's flight?

This is in addition to the Daily DL flight.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12043 times:
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What took them so long ? KLM has been in the AF group since 2004, with all the NW flights to Amsterdam you would think AF would want some of that gravy train.

User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2252 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 11908 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
What took them so long ? KLM has been in the AF group since 2004, with all the NW flights to Amsterdam you would think AF would want some of that gravy train.

The fact hat they are starting seasonal 5 weekly service pretty much answers your question. AF will be testing the waters with this flight.

It should do ok, but with AF already serving DTW, it might hurt their operations there.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently onlineFlyingHollander From Netherlands, joined Jul 2011, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11734 times:

Why don't Air France and KLM let Delta operate flights to MSP, DTW, ATL etc. and operate destinations like SEA, PHL BOS, etc. themselves?


If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7342 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11700 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
What took them so long ? KLM has been in the AF group since 2004, with all the NW flights to Amsterdam you would think AF would want some of that gravy train.

NW only started flying MSP-CDG in Summer 2008 and at first it was only seasonal. It was not until post-merger when DL maintained MSP-CDG year-round.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 5):

The fact hat they are starting seasonal 5 weekly service pretty much answers your question. AF will be testing the waters with this flight.

It should do ok, but with AF already serving DTW, it might hurt their operations there.

It's not AF, it is Skyteam. DL and AF operate "as one" across the Atlantic. They coordinate flights and share revenue and cost. It's a joint-venture.

DL and AF, decided together to add more capacity this summer to MSP-CDG, so they are adding the additional 5x weekly AF flights, in addition to the DL daily flight.

It has nothing to do with "testing the waters" they are metal-neutral. Part of the Joint Venture requires DL and AF to keep a balance in the number of flights/ASMs, hence why you see some operated by AF and some operated by DL. The decision to whether it is an AF or DL operated flight depends on the most appropriate aircraft type, capacity, aircraft availability, and operational decisions.


User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1999 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11658 times:

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 6):

The spirit of a JV is that all flights in it are DL flights and are AF flights, etc. regardless of whose metal is flying it. It really allows them to better fit capacity to the market. For example, AF doesn't have 757's, so DL operates PHL and PIT. On the other hand, AF has the 77W which may be better suited to another market. They're essentially behaving as one airline over the Atlantic.



Good goes around!
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11634 times:

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 6):
Why don't Air France and KLM let Delta operate flights to MSP, DTW, ATL etc. and operate destinations like SEA, PHL BOS, etc. themselves?

Equipment. The AF 343 is pretty close in configuration to the 333 (30/21/224, versus 34/32/232 for the 333), but DL doesn't have many 333s and the 76T, which is configured 36/29/143, is quite a bit smaller and more premium than the 333/343.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineFlyingHollander From Netherlands, joined Jul 2011, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11585 times:

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 8):
AF doesn't have 757's

I forgot they we're using 757's om some routes, that makes sense then.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
DL doesn't have many 333s and the 76T

These aircraft, however, are being used on flights such as AMS-PDX/SEA/BOS.



If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11520 times:

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 10):
These aircraft, however, are being used on flights such as AMS-PDX/SEA/BOS.

Sure, as they have been for a decade. What's wrong with having their TATL hub service focused on AMS rather than CDG?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6344 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11502 times:

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 6):
Why don't Air France and KLM let Delta operate flights to MSP, DTW, ATL etc. and operate destinations like SEA, PHL BOS, etc. themselves?

Why should AF/KL let DL operate to MSP,DTW, and ATL. and operate to SEA,PHL and BOS themselves,since all flight are joint venture and metal neutral?


User currently onlineFlyingHollander From Netherlands, joined Jul 2011, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11478 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Sure, as they have been for a decade. What's wrong with having their TATL hub service focused on AMS rather than CDG?

I meant that if DL were not operating these routes themselves then they could use these planes on a route like MSP-CDG. If KL and AF operate flights from their hubs to cities other that the DL hubs then DL would't need the European hubs. Isn't being able to let you partner airlines handle flying from their hub without losing your business what JVs are about?



If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11437 times:

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 13):
I meant that if DL were not operating these routes themselves then they could use these planes on a route like MSP-CDG.

What does that accomplish in a metal-neutral JV?

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 13):
Isn't being able to let you partner airlines handle flying from their hub without losing your business what JVs are about?

Sure, but CDG and AMS function as DL hubs with regard to aircraft routing, as they have (in the case of AMS/NW) for years.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBNAtraveler From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11414 times:
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Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 8):
The spirit of a JV is that all flights in it are DL flights and are AF flights, etc. regardless of whose metal is flying it. It really allows them to better fit capacity to the market. For example, AF doesn't have 757's, so DL operates PHL and PIT. On the other hand, AF has the 77W which may be better suited to another market. They're essentially behaving as one airline over the Atlantic.

I absolutely agree in terms of the spirit of the JV; they have fully implemented the "spirit" operationally, but *not* from a customer service perspective. AF and DL upgrade (mileage and other) policies are not aligned, AF offers a truly differentiated Premium Voyageur service whereas Delta's Economy Comfort is simply more legroom and a slightly different alcohol policy from economy. I have no problems flying AF over DL and vice-versa, but if they are going to intersperse different customer service environments on the same routes then they will confuse/upset customers.

Bottom line, if you make it one airline, with only operationally different paint/equipment then you need to truly align the customer experience too.


User currently offlineSJCMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11286 times:

Wow, I'm somewhat surprised to see this for some reason. I look forward to seeing AF here and I look forward to seeing the A343 at MSP!

User currently offlinepremobrimo From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11241 times:

Now this news release from Delta makes sense!

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincitie...elta-to-fly-from-msp-to-paris.html

It mentions nothing about Air France, but it says there will be additional flight from MSP to CDG



Now You're Flying Smart.
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11183 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):
5 X Weekly

Will be operated DAILY between June 17 and Sept. 1st.


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7502 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11018 times:

Quoting BNAtraveler (Reply 15):
Bottom line, if you make it one airline, with only operationally different paint/equipment then you need to truly align the customer experience too.

NW and KL had this down to a nail, the new WBC were the same (slight different look on the surface) but overall pretty much one in the same.

The issue is that AF/DL are not the same as NW/KL, as AF wants to have their certain products one way and Delta another, I don't think you will ever see these fully integrated.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinecgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10642 times:

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 6):
Why don't Air France and KLM let Delta operate flights to MSP, DTW, ATL etc. and operate destinations like SEA, PHL BOS, etc. themselves?

Oh what I wouldn't give for AF to start service to PHL again. I'm not referring to the JV service with DL which some people insist on claiming "its all the same with the JV". No it isn't! I miss flying AF's 330s and AF's service to PHL. It was a sad day when I heard they discontinued PHL. Also, it would be nice to see another international tale in PHL. All it has now is LH and BA.



A330 man.
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2087 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10337 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 19):
The issue is that AF/DL are not the same as NW/KL, as AF wants to have their certain products one way and Delta another, I don't think you will ever see these fully integrated.

Nope. It's the same situation with LH/UA/AC, UA/NH and AA/BA/IB, etc. The so-called "alignment" and "benefits" are more intangible than tangible, and especially with regards to the customer experience.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 12):
Why should AF/KL let DL operate to MSP,DTW, and ATL. and operate to SEA,PHL and BOS themselves,since all flight are joint venture and metal neutral?

I think its measured on a case-by-case basis. I know in SEA's case, DL has really been flexing its muscles in the local market and has carved out a nice niche for itself via its strong partnership with AS as well as bolstering its service to Asia. AF did not have the same kind of partnership with AS, so it made more sense for DL to take over the route given metal neutrality.

BOS still sees service on both AF and DL, similar to JFK, ATL, DTW and now MSP.

Cities like EWR, PHL and PIT are spoke cities for AF/KL, not SkyTeam hubs. I'd imagine that *perhaps* there is enough O&D + connecting traffic, as well as SkyTeam loyalty, to justify service from those spokes to CDG and AMS on smaller aircraft with lower operating costs - which makes DL a better fit.

Anyways, at the end of the day, the TATL routes operated by NW/KL and DL/AF have always seemed like musical chairs to me. It got even weirder when the Indian routes to BOM and DEL were eventually included in the JV agreements, as well as PPT from LAX.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineaf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10254 times:

I'm quite surprised by this announcement. Happy to see this will be operated by an A340, more aircraft variety for MSP! Maybe I'll get lucky and AF will bring a 773ER to MSP once.  

Hope they do well to Minneapolis!



It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 600 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10253 times:

I'd prefer let DL operate DTW and MSP, and AF keep SEA and ORD....


If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1824 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10113 times:

Awesome! Been a long time since MSP saw an addition this big (literally). Haven't had a large foreign carrier here in a long time. I believe it will be the only scheduled 4-engine airplane too. And is this the the first scheduled A340 to MSP? At any rate, very exciting. I'll have to see spot this one a few times!

25 LY777 : Thanks for the info. Will the A343s be refurbished, just like the 744s. They have pretty old seats in Y IIRC
26 Post contains images AussieItaliano : I'm a bit surprised that UA and LH haven't done this. There are some routes that LH has tried that were too small for the A330/340, but might have wo
27 Cubsrule : I think you identified the problem yourself. The three class 763 is/was far too premium an airplane for DEN-MUC, PDX-FRA or CLT-MUC.
28 floridaflyboy : Couldn't agree with you more. The question my post was in reference to was regarding aircraft selection and operations, so I was responding with that
29 treebeard787 : Very cool, the AF A343 will be a very welcome visitor to MSP. I remember when KLM used to fly 747s on MSP-AMS so seeing another foreign carrier other
30 Flighty : They also flew MD-11 on the route, as recently as 2004.
31 YULWinterSkies : Both flights will be mainly hub-to-hub, so I see nothing competing against DTW there. Also keep in mind that a new DTW-CDG service just got started l
32 mplsjefe : Agreed! This is some unexpected great news for MSP! . . . although I really hope they keep those 3-4-3 777ERs away from here.
33 Continental : Interesting departure time. Makes sense though as the DL flight is about 4 hours earlier. That covers a good deal of connecting flights on both ends.
34 mplsjefe : Wikipedia says this flight will operate out of concourse E at MSP. Assuming that is true, does concourse E already have gate facilities that can handl
35 usflyer msp : AF will operate from G (that is where the FIS is). DL is doing the ground handling. Wikipedia is just wrong.
36 mplsjefe : Thanks. That is what I figured.
37 treebeard787 : As has been stated already, AF will use a gate on G. Gate E-10 does have a taxiway marker for parking a 747 but I have never seen anything bigger the
38 MSPNWA : E isn't even a Delta concourse. There's Wikipedia for you. I wonder if the flight will use gate G4. The NRT flight should be gone by then. Either way
39 usdcaguy : For PHL/PIT/EWR, that's really wishful thinking. Very tough markets for DL, but there are obviously things they can do to get the business. For one t
40 premobrimo : Delta = Northwest in MSP. Why would they care about their 2 old gates on E when they gain 80+ gates on A,B,C,D,G and F???
41 SJCMSP : Last time I flew out of those E gates on DL, there was still a Western sticker in the jet way. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Great Lakes is using th
42 Roseflyer : DL and AF are allowed to coordinate schedules. I believe there are some scope requirements associated with the joint venture and the union contracts
43 kyrone : I find it interesting how AF and DL are operating these schedules. It seems like LH and UA have it down to a science with coordinating schedules and b
44 Post contains links af773atmsp : http://www.startribune.com/business/175709521.html Somewhat related to the AF to MSP announcement, interesting article about the growing number of int
45 Post contains links neveragain : The MSP metro area shouldn't take any consolation in these numbers. A 6.2% growth rate from 2003 to 2011 when the number of international enplaned pa
46 mplsjefe : MSP, as a metro area, is not even close to the size of the others you mention. Furthermore, all of those airports are premier international gateways
47 Flighty : Yeah... or London or Tokyo perhaps (????) The measurement itself isn't worth it. There are about 10 variables here, and you're mentioning maybe one (
48 MSPNWA : I read that article too and thought that the numbers given were in no way a positive for MSP. Since we're talking about growth rate and not total pas
49 EVA777SEA : An apples to apples comparison then might be SEA, which grew by 42.8% over the same period. I agree with neveragain, the article was misleading and c
50 mplsjefe : An apples to apples comparison then might be SEA, which grew by 42.8% over the same period. I agree with neveragain, the article was misleading and ca
51 PSU.DTW.SCE : Why even bother to make the comparison, it means nothing. The growth rate comparison is along the same lines as saying that Michigan had the fastest g
52 neveragain : Wow. Would not have expected that from you. It most certainly means something. And no, it's not anything like saying that Michigan had the fastest gr
53 Continental : Well, what do you all propose MSP do? Can MSP handle new international flights by DL? By other airlines?
54 LAXdude1023 : If were talking international O&D, MSP is in a class with DEN, PHX, and DTW. All of the above have between 1.7-2.0 million international O&D p
55 neveragain : Great info, and of course I agree with your measurements, but the figures I'm referring to (and that the article quoted focused on) was not MARKET SI
56 PSU.DTW.SCE : ....deleted because it wasn't nice to say......[Edited 2012-10-28 18:52:25]
57 neveragain : PSU, don't feel the need to spare my feelings. I'm admittedly a blunt person, probably to a fault in the sense that I am frequently misunderstood, so
58 Continental : What other routes could MSP serve within reason? Alitalia, Aeromexico, Korean, KLM? KL has served MSP in the past but with 3 daily DL flights there's
59 treebeard787 : Of the ones you mentioned the most plausible candidates would be KE doing ICN-MSP or KL running an AMS-MSP frequency. I don't think there is enough t
60 mplsjefe : That would be a dream come true for those of us at MSP!
61 mplsjefe : With this addition, per delta.com, it looks like DL will downgrade it's MSP-CDG service back to a 763ER from the current A332. Makes sense given the a
62 Amfleet82 : MSP had Aeromexico service at one time, however it may have just been charter for MLT. The most likely candidate you mentioned would be Korean to ICN.
63 af773atmsp : The AM flights to MSP were vacation charters, but DL operated MSP-MEX last year I believe, but that has been dropped.
64 Post contains links and images treebeard787 : You are correct, Aeromexico Travel flew MD-80s on flights to CUN. Does SY fly to Mexico from MSP? View Large View MediumPhoto © Ken Cheung - FlyingS
65 Post contains links MountainFlyer : Yes, they fly to CUN, MZT, PVR, ZIH, CZM, and HUX according to their route map. http://www.suncountry.com/page/1/destinations.jsp
66 Continental : Really? When was this?
67 PSU.DTW.SCE : I'd venture DLwould upgauge MSP-NRT back up to a 744 before anything else. KE and DL are in a codeshare as a part of Skyteam, not a joint-venture. Th
68 af773atmsp : When NW received their last A330 there was some talk about starting MSP-FCO or MXP, but obviously nothing materialized. NW also wanted to start MSP-PV
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