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US Carriers International Route Profitability  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 5199 times:

In the past I have posted US network carrier international route profitability numbers as reported in DOT financial filings.

I was asked to do an update - here are the numbers for 2nd quarter 2012.

Reported Operating Profit margin percentage (CASM-RASM) / yield cents

Atlantic
AA - 1.1% / 13.72
DL - (3.5%) / 14.04
UA - 7.8% / 15.15
US - 3.6% / 12.96

Latin
AA - 9.4% / 16.89
AS - 8.3% / 12.70
DL - (12.3%) / 13.83
UA - 16.0% / 16.40
US - 13.8% / 15.36

Pacific
AA - (9.8%) / 12.19
DL - 12.8% / 13.86
HA - 12.1% / 13.31
UA - 18.1% / 15.53


Source: Form 41.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinesfoa380 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

Suprising that UA TPAC is the strongest considering how much of it so long......

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4915 times:

Historically for UA its Pacific ops were the most profitable, however with its ATI and regauge of capacity on the Atlantic, that performance has improved quite a bit. For CO its Latin ops were the best.
Will be interesting to see which one eventually produces the best returns for the merged operation.

For AA, no surprise Latin America is the winner, and for Delta, the Pacific has been generating the profit.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1704 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4674 times:
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Delta must be making a gold mine domestically to make up for those poor international numbers. AA is getting killed on Chicago-China and Haneda.

User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2406 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4634 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 3):
Delta must be making a gold mine domestically to make up for those poor international numbers. AA is getting killed on Chicago-China and Haneda.

And conversely, United's domestic network must be a pretty big loser.


User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 4480 times:

Oh god, here we go again.

The way that carriers allocate revenue and expenses on connecting itineraries is reported differently by each. For some, the pro-ration, as reported on Form 41, makes profitability look worse than others.

I'll direct anyone who really thinks that Delta is seeing margins like this on international routes to look at today's earnings release.

It just is not apples-to-apples between carriers.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 5):
I'll direct anyone who really thinks that Delta is seeing margins like this on international routes to look at today's earnings release.

Its still fair to compare a carriers relative own performance.

For example Delta managing director of market development said the carrier does poorly in Latin America and no surprise here the numbers reflect that.

Latin America: Most Profitable For US Airlines (by LAXintl Jul 18 2012 in Civil Aviation)

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1375 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Very interesting.

Regardless of inside accounting method by enterprises it seems to show how each airline does for itself.

Delta for instance have bigger problems in South America, Europe was also problem, while Asia looks positive for enterprise.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 7):
Regardless of inside accounting method by enterprises it seems to show how each airline does for itself.

Correct. Can be interesting to view how each segment does internally at the carriers and goes to shed light things long suspected -- such as how a carrier might have a gold mine in one region and weakness in another. For instance AA's forte and cash machine has been Latin America, while Pacific has been its achilles heal.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7562 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3656 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
For instance AA's forte and cash machine has been Latin America, while Pacific has been its achilles heal.



I would argue that (specifically) AA's achilles hill is China.



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User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3505 times:

I don't think Haneda helps either.

But going back years, Pacific has always been hit or miss for AA, so even the core Narita stuff has been weak.

Though hopefully now with the JAL joint venture, these routes will perform better.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4267 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3478 times:
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Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 9):
AA's achilles hill is China.

No criticism.

I know what you mean.

Nevertheless, it made me smile  


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8307 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3430 times:

Does this include revenue sharing flights? For instance, how much of DL's TATL numbers are affected by AF's terrible losses? Similarly, how much of UA's TATL numbers are helped by LH's profits?

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7562 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
I don't think Haneda helps either.

But going back years, Pacific has always been hit or miss for AA, so even the core Narita stuff has been weak.

Yeah, forgot about HND.

DFW-NRT is really their only shinging star over the Pacific. Even it didnt do as good last year (for obvious reasons).

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):
No criticism.

I know what you mean.

Nevertheless, it made me smile

He might have had a hill too!  



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1704 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2766 times:
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I should add that it looks like DL's attempt to position ATL as a strong Latin competitor to MIA isn't working.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2396 times:

Yes JV revenues are mixed in there, however its only applicable for the portion of the flying operated by the respective US airline (often on ASM basis). Also remember not all of a specific regions flying is under JV.

So the reported numbers at the end are still respective of the revenue minus the cost to provide the service.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1375 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

Fascinating insight.

For UA, I recall reading CEO stated he only wished to operate a domestic network large enough to provide enough feed for its international network which would represent 50% of airline activity.

So looks indeed like UA does quite well internationally, overall best of US airlines.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2183 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 9):
I would argue that (specifically) AA's achilles hill is China.

My roommate from college has been living in PEK for a year and was visiting this past weekend. He told me his o/w flight from ORD to PEK yesterday on AA cost him $640.

Nuts.

I was under the impression though that AA's TPAC routes had showed improvements in recent quarters. I wonder how much of that was aided by the removal of ORD-DEL, but to me it's always been ambiguous whether that was included in TATL or TPAC calculations.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

India falls under Atlantic entity reporting for the DOT.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2380 times:

Deltas US-GRU/GIG routes are really maturing from what i can see daily load wise and assuming Delta/NW great success with cargo atleast this part of LatAm should improve in stats next year

User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 19):
Deltas US-GRU/GIG routes are really maturing from what i can see daily load wise and assuming Delta/NW great success with cargo atleast this part of LatAm should improve in stats next year

Yes. Recall I initiated a thread a few months ago, where a DL 767 copilot told me DL wanted to put the 747 on ATL to GRU/GIG, but Brazilian government/avaition authority is not keen on this at the present time.


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

Sorry for my ignorance. The statistics look interesting. Could someone explain exactly what they mean in clear language? How are they calculated? Are they calculated with the same method across the different airlines?

I suppose the numbers in parenthesis are negative? If this is so, how could DL be losing money on Atlantic routes? DL has always led across the Atlantic.


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2146 times:

DL certainly does not lose money on Atlantic routes... DL has a different formula for calculating expenses and different way of reporting....LAX i get what you r saying but if the numbers you report frequently are accurate...DL would be losing a sh$%load of money...thats not the case.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1929 times:

Historically Atlantic might have been good for Delta, however the last couple years have been very challenging.

Look the number of markets dropped, and overall capacity cuts instituted along with rationalization with JV AF/KL.

The Atlantic segment has seen the largest percentage capacity reductions at Delta, with the segment characterized as "tenuous" at a recent earnings call.

So yes things are not all smiles and raking in the dollars while flying across the pond.


p.s. - remember the posted the numbers are reported by the airlines themselves. So itself Delta is saying its losing money across the Atlantic.

[Edited 2012-11-22 10:42:46]


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