robbie86 From Sweden, joined May 2006, 509 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 21489 times:
According to Swedish media SK is getting even closer to bankruptcy. The major banks are refusing to extend their loans and the Swedish, Danish and Norwegian governments has already recived complaints for helping SK witk loans from the European Commission.
If SK wants their loans to be extended they have to come up with a plan to be profitable as soon as this weekend.
Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3228 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 21174 times:
From what I understand, the SAS managmnet has announced an adittional plan to save money for SAS, wich include a possible 15 - 25 % cut in salaries and possible sales of SGH, bonus program Eurobonus and Widerøe Airlines.
Don't understand what they can gain from a possible sale of Widerøe wich is one of the few parts of SAS that really ean money. But from what I have read, the Widerøe airline can be worth as much as 1 - 2 billion NOK and a sale can give SAS parts of the money it needs. Still I am very sceptical of how smart it would be in the long run ...
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (6 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 20637 times:
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 1): Don't understand what they can gain from a possible sale of Widerøe wich is one of the few parts of SAS that really earn money
Agreed, but the dark cloud for WF it has a lot of old Dashes that will need to be replaced or expensively renewed. Wideroe operates 19 DHC-8-100s, 3 DHC-8-200s, 8 DHC-8-300s and 9 DHC-8-400s. IMHO, about the only a/c that can currently replace the 100s-200s-300s is the ATR42
"An idea has to be incredibly absurd to have any reasonable chance of succeeding" --A. Einstein
ATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 558 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 20379 times:
As someone who is unfamiliar with the SAS situation, there is now way they will be going out of business like Malev anytime soon right? I have a ticket booked on them in December... should I be nervous?
Thomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2266 posts, RR: 31 Reply 4, posted (6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 20162 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 2): Agreed, but the dark cloud for WF it has a lot of old Dashes that will need to be replaced or expensively renewed. Wideroe operates 19 DHC-8-100s, 3 DHC-8-200s, 8 DHC-8-300s and 9 DHC-8-400s. IMHO, about the only a/c that can currently replace the 100s-200s-300s is the ATR42
I am not sure if the ATR 42-600 can really make it into all of these small airports in Norway where the Dash 8-100 currently operates.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
chuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 700 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 19525 times:
Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 4): I am not sure if the ATR 42-600 can really make it into all of these small airports in Norway where the Dash 8-100 currently operates.
HELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 644 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 18828 times:
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 1): plan to save money for SAS, wich include a possible 15 - 25 % cut in salaries
15-25% cut in salaries would be massive, any ideas what the unions would say? Would that mean a totally new SAS, with new contracts and such?
Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 3): As someone who is unfamiliar with the SAS situation, there is now way they will be going out of business like Malev anytime soon right? I have a ticket booked on them in December... should I be nervous?
I wouldn't be nervous flying them, I really don't believe anything happens that soon, SAS is not Malev.
ushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2888 posts, RR: 18 Reply 7, posted (6 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17749 times:
One of the problems with SK, in my opinion, is that their fares are just way too high for the service levels they offer.
I remember them offering very competitive fares from Germany to the US, to SE Asia and to various European destinations. Nowadays it seems that you cannot fly with SK on a budget anymore. If they didn't make any money back then, at least they had some additional revenue.
photoshooter From Belgium, joined Feb 2010, 353 posts, RR: 20 Reply 8, posted (6 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17280 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHAT OPERATOR
Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 3): As someone who is unfamiliar with the SAS situation, there is now way they will be going out of business like Malev anytime soon right? I have a ticket booked on them in December... should I be nervous?
You shouldn't. I think if things go bad so fast, they will not go down like Malev.
Don't airlines have agreements with partners when they are almost bankrupt? When Sabena went bankrupt, several airlines took care of passengers who booked a flight a few days after the bankruptcy.
Enjoy your flight!
Photoshooter
'A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.' - Winston Churchill
Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 7): One of the problems with SK, in my opinion, is that their fares are just way too high for the service levels they offer.
They are, indeed, if one travels from one non scandinavian airport to another non scandinavian airport. MUC-EWR via CPH or ARN is just unpayable if one buys a direct ticket. However, purchasing MUC-CPH and CPH-EWR separately may result in a considerably lower ticket price. And leave you stranded in CPH and with a useless ticket to EWR if MUC-CPH was late...
On the other hand, SAS offers quite a nice - to my mind - premium economy class. 2-3-2 instead of 2-4-2 and quite a friendly amount of leg space on the 333 and 343, which neither Swiss nor LH or OA have, even if LH seems to be planning for one. Somebody, who is not willing to pay for Business but wants more than Tourist will find SK's premium eco quite appreciable.
Also, there are frequent reports that SAS staff would be way too well paid. One has to keep in mind, however, that a) Norway is an extreme example of a high price country and b) the gradients in salaries in Scandinavia are relatively modest compared to other countries (some would call it "socialist") and it's close to impossible to tame the trade unions.
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1551 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (6 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 16577 times:
SK is a lost cause, only nostalgic Scandinavians care about them anymore, there are so many options really, I would not feel sad if they go. Why should scandinavian taxpayers sink billions to keep them alive?! There are so many other areas that need money better IMO.
ushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2888 posts, RR: 18 Reply 12, posted (6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15924 times:
Quoting Ferroviarius (Reply 9): They are, indeed, if one travels from one non scandinavian airport to another non scandinavian airport. MUC-EWR via CPH or ARN is just unpayable if one buys a direct ticket. However, purchasing MUC-CPH and CPH-EWR separately may result in a considerably lower ticket price. And leave you stranded in CPH and with a useless ticket to EWR if MUC-CPH was late...
Yeah, it's really too bad. I enjoyed flying with them, which I did fairly often prior to about 2004 when they stopped offering good fares from Germany.
If they disappear, I'll be sad. Especially since I find their livery to be one of the three best ones out there.
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1007 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14634 times:
I don't see much of a future for SAS, or any other European legacy carrier with a relatively large EU network feeding a relatively small intercontinental ditto.
There are two possible scenarios. One is that SAS closes shop outright, to re-emerge SN/SR style in a much trimmed and reduced version. Second is being taken over by somebody, which due to EU ownership laws would have to be a EU based somebody. Of those I think the first is the most plausible, not least because the ownership structure of SAS does not lend itself to being an object of possible take-over. Far easier, from a political point of view, to let it sink and have the private sector take over the bits and bobs it fancies.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
Ferroviarius From Norway, joined Mar 2007, 178 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12080 times:
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14): I don't see much of a future for SAS, or any other European legacy carrier with a relatively large EU network feeding a relatively small intercontinental ditto.
There are two possible scenarios. One is that SAS closes shop outright, to re-emerge SN/SR style in a much trimmed and reduced version. Second is being taken over by somebody, which due to EU ownership laws would have to be a EU based somebody. Of those I think the first is the most plausible, not least because the ownership structure of SAS does not lend itself to being an object of possible take-over. Far easier, from a political point of view, to let it sink and have the private sector take over the bits and bobs it fancies.
Well, I do not really agree. The fact is that politics is too much involved here. The losses are not so dramatic that they would really demand a solution, which would put a definitive end to the losses. I think there is still a majority of people in Scandinavia, who prefer to have a carrier like SAS, anchored in state ownership, in service (besides smaller private carriers like Norwegian or Mærsk), even if the same majority of people will continue to curse and shout because of the losses. It's contradictory, indeed, if seen from outside, but many Scandinavians, possibly the majority of the electorates, when being faced with the alternatives of either paying the losses or giving up SAS, will reluctantly accept the former.
There had been long discussions here in Norway when Braathens was taken over by SAS, also when Color Air was competed to ruin by SAS, and the final upshot was that "everybody" insists on TWO carriers for Norway in order to get a kind of competition keeping the prices low. I personally do not understand how this works at the low density of population in major parts of the country, I fear that I anyway do pay a lot of taxes to keep airports like Kirkenes open for traffic. It's really stupid, but a huge part of the taxes paid in Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim goes to the so called "district" in order to grant some guys out there a life in the luxury of fresh air, water, silence, landscape, cell phone, TV, supermarket and I-do-not-know-what without being of ANY use for people in Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim (unless they have a cottage out there, which only a wealthy minority do have).
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3075 posts, RR: 10 Reply 16, posted (6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 11966 times:
I have long feared this was getting close.
From the outside I can see a few things wrong with SAS but as I keep on saying, Finnair proves its possible.
The first and I think most important, is to redefine what it is SAS does. Finnair's mission statement is clear.
To fly people from Europe to Asia, via 'the short cut' of helsinki. Note it is From Europe, not from just Finland.
SAS must stop thinking purely in terms of Scandinavia.
I can see lots of ideas and Arguments for change, but is it culturally impossible now? Inside europe SAS certainly
doesn't feel like much of a full service carrier. It feels like a carrier you pay expensive prices for but get a LCC product,
never really a great way to win over loyalty. Yet apparently it offers complimentary breakfast inside Sweden?
Business Class - attention is needed here. It needs to be something exportable to both the rest of Europe and to Asia. That means more luxury, which will ruffle the nose of some scandinavians. But remember the question to Ask is why should I fly J SAS long haul and not Air France or Lufthansa etc. It's either price or product or a combination of both.
bluesky73 From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 138 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (6 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11792 times:
Sorry i know rebrand doesn't solve financial issues but if they're not sunk yet maybe a revised livery and marketing campaign is needed. Always thought the blue/red livery was bland.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1500 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11399 times:
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
From the outside I can see a few things wrong with SAS but as I keep on saying, Finnair proves its possible.
The first and I think most important, is to redefine what it is SAS does. Finnair's mission statement is clear.
To fly people from Europe to Asia, via 'the short cut' of helsinki. Note it is From Europe, not from just Finland.
SAS must stop thinking purely in terms of Scandinavia.
But that is easier said then done as you are competing with other larger, more established, European carriers. Finnair, while seen as doing better than SAS, hasn't been profitable for several years and has been constantly outsourcing its European network as much as possible.
HELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 644 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10983 times:
Quoting Polot (Reply 18): Finnair, while seen as doing better than SAS, hasn't been profitable for several years and has been constantly outsourcing its European network as much as possible.
Yes Finnair has been in troubles as well but it looks the wind has changed. They just made the best quarterly result in the company's history and year 2012 should show profit.
prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6019 posts, RR: 55 Reply 20, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10197 times:
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 1): From what I understand, the SAS managmnet has announced an adittional plan to save money....
During the last fifteen years they have announced at least a dozen plans to save costs.
In my business, then making ends meet has always been a two way street, to save costs and to increase revenue. SAS seems to totally ignore the second part.
Let me tell about a recent experience I had with SAS. I am on a regular basis on a CPH-ZRH roundtrip, and has been so for quite some years. I always book with Swiss because they operate that route with real aeroplanes, A320 or ARJ instead of the cramped SAS CRJ-900 straws. But last time schedule convenience took priority over comfort, so homewards I chose a codeshare flight operated by SAS. After all, the suffering takes an end when it is only one and a half hours flight. For that flight....:
At the gate before boarding a gate agent made an announcement on the gate PA system in Swiss German dialect and broken English, neither of which I understood. I went up to the gate agent and asked him what had been told. He told me that because the plane is small, then big handbags should be put on a cart at the gate and on arrival be picked up from a cart at the arrival gate. I asked him if my bag was big, which he declined. So far so good.
Then we boarded. Then the gate agent said something in Swiss German dialect to the gentlemen in front of me in the queue line. That gentlemen answered with a "What?" in Swedish language with a distinct Scania dialect.
Now followed a long ping-pong conversation in English:
Gate agent: Your handbag is too big, you must put it on that cart.
Passenger: No, my hand bag is not too big.
G: You must put the hand bag on the cart, it is too big and it has to be carried in the baggage hold.
P: No, my hand bag is within limits.
G: Yes, it is within limits, but you must put down your handbag because this is a small aeroplane with limited space for handbags.
P: No, I cannot leave my hand bag out of sight.
This ping-pong game continued for about five minutes, the last two or three minutes with two gate agents telling the same story at the same time.
Then the passenger said: "Now please listen. My hand bag is within limits, and I cannot leave it out of sight. Even if the risk may be small, I am not allowed leave it out of sight because it potentially could jeopardize the health of my company, and it sure jeopardizes my job. We are not discussing whether I leave my bag or not. There are two options: 1) I am on this plane with my handbag. 2) I am not on the plane, you deliver me my checked bag, I go by other means, and when home I report to the company travel manager never to use your airline again.
Here followed a short conversation (in Swiss German) between the two gate agents. Then the passenger was boarded with his handbag in his hand.
That means we went into the bus which drives us to the plane parked way out on the tarmac. In the bus the passenger met a colleague. He wondered, "where have you been? weren't you just behind me in the line? I was afraid you had fallen ill". But he of course got the full explanation for the delay.
The colleague then responded: "Okay, I understand. Problem solves itself sooner or later, likely sooner. It is just amazing what effort this airline company puts into driving itself into the ditch".
Sure here were two businessmen who won't fly with SAS again any time soon, when it can be avoided.
This time I was on a private trip, and I wouldn't have had any problem with surrendering my handbag. But I have been on many business trips where I would have had to act the same way.
It seems like SAS simply doesn't understand what it means to run an airline. On a route like CPH-ZRH with two competing operators one cannot offer such an inferior product without suffering.
There is of course nothing wrong with the CRJ-900 plane as such. If only SAS removed two seat rows, making it a 80 seats plane instead of 88, then the problem was solved, and they would soon have to upgrade to A320. And more important, pax would book with them on regular basis, and not just when they are much cheaper than the competitor, or when the competitor's planes are fully booked.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
danielkandi From Denmark, joined Sep 2012, 61 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 9984 times:
SAS has no routes... ok "no routes" , but in an example, I can say that I can use KLM and get to where I want, usually within 2 flights. With sas its often 3 or 4.... That in itself should be enough of a point. I cant be ass'd to get to frankfurt or Munich, too much hassle !
Flown on : md80, md95, Avro RJ85/100, Q400, Atr42/72, a319/320/321, a332/a333, a343/346, b733 and up, 757, 747, 767 and
mah584jr From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 495 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 9887 times:
Norwegian is eating them alive! Their prices are better, their costs are lower and their planes are mostly newer. They have also turned a profit for the last 5 years. Hopefully SAS can come up with some sort of restructured business plan in the near future.
trent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 422 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9468 times:
Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 7): One of the problems with SK, in my opinion, is that their fares are just way too high for the service levels they offer.
I don't doubt your comment, but having done a general search for fares TG vs SK from Australia to Norway, the Y fares are comparable and the business class fares are AUD$2000 cheaper than on TG. But I would not claim that TG offers a better seat or f&B service in J than SK. BTW fares in J were a bit more than $5000 Vs TG's $7200.
If SK went bankrupt, who would (suddenly) fill the void? Finnair?
25 N62NA: I'm surprised that it took all the way to response #21 to mention Norwegian. When I first read this topic, that was the first thing that immeidately
26 AirPacific747: On shorthaul, I always prefer almost any other carrier. Last time I wanted to book a ticket to ARN, I tried to compare the fares between SAS and Norwe
27 sweair: The mad dog is horrible if you end up between the engines, your ears will ring for hours after. The seats between the engines should be 50% of the pr
28 AirPacific747: Completely agree.. I had the 'pleasure' of sitting between the engines on a SK MD on the way back from Paris last year. Couldn't even have a normal c
29 downtown273: Kinda yes. Go to CPH airport and check out what % of the flights are SAS. I fly CPH-AMS-CPH every week and there are around 11 frequencies on weekday
30 teme82: AY isn't in the position to take over SK routes from CPH and ARN. I would imagine that DY and BE would move in...
31 Mortyman: You are not the only one who is wondering about Eurobonus. But apparently it's worth up to 2 billion NOK Well I don't think that Norwegian can fill i
32 EBGflyer: I don't agree. I can usually find pretty attractive fares if I book well in advance with SK. Actually then usually SK is cheaper. It is true that DY
33 LJ: Not everyone pays that for the flight. First, you have people who connect at CPH and they don't generate EUR 750 per return. Second, not everyone buy
34 Mortyman: With DY you get rebooked on a later flight
35 EIDL: A properly run loyalty scheme should make a profit. The airline pays the loyalty operator for points and the loyalty operator pays them for flights,
36 g2scandinavia: That's unfortunately not true and probably one of the most common benefit falsehoods of SAS network and partners. If you buy connecting flights with
37 kyrone: You are correct. The operating airline almost always handles the delays or cancellations of their flight. What I believe the post you responded too m
38 kyrone: SAS has been very focused on cutting costs, but they havent focused on increasing revenue; as someone already mentioned. They have sold off areas of t
39 RayChuang: The days of a "national" airline in Europe--unless the airline has huge number of international routes like AF, BA and LH--appears to be coming to an
40 Mortyman: Finnair is not interested in a cooperation with SAS or buying the airline: There has repeatedly been rumors about a merger of the two companies, and i
41 AirPacific747: To be fair, the reason why we used SK to CDG was because they were marginally cheaper. The flight was delayed both ways with around an hour each time
42 vinniewinnie: You have to define unpayable? If unpayable is More than 500 euros, then you will be hard pressed to find any airline that offer this kind of fare now
43 LN-KGL: I wouldn't be vinniewinnie since it already looks like you have flown the flight
44 downtown273: If your trip was in August 2012 I hope you had a nice trip Now seriously, if something went wrong, I would assume Star Alliance (UA/LH) would try to
45 LN-KGL: Let's look at a scenario where SAS does go bankrupt. Denmark: Most parts of Denmark would hardly notice that SAS didn't exist anymore. Many of the lar
46 sweair: We Swedes did already sink 2.5Bn SEK into SK, probably lost right now anyway. Do someone expect us to keep paying for SKs survival when we have other
47 CF-CPI: Just who was it ... Carlzon? ... who came along and seemed to get the carrier in shape for the environment of his time. Perhaps that environment has
48 LN-KGL: Let's concentrate on the current fleet CF-CPI, and it's like this: Airbus A319-100 Airbus A321-200 Boeing 717-200 (the Blue1 fleet is now included in
49 Mortyman: I beleave we Norwegians have payed atleast 1,4 billion NOK.
50 CF-CPI: I think the SAS management team are also anetters, who enjoy visualizing everything in SAS colors. I had completely missed the 737-400 and the A319.
51 LN-KGL: The Blue1 B712 will stay in the colours they have for now, but all their routes have now SK code instead of KF. To add to the SK collection, the first
52 PlymSpotter: I disagree, I think the 42 would be able to fulfill all current operations. The runways are short, but they are at sea level and cool. No doubt there
53 prebennorholm: I'm really sorry to hear that Did you ever make it across Ôresund? If so, then you may have noticed that about half of the staff at CPH are Swedes.
54 copenhagenboy: I think it is funny that people always say that Norwegian is cheaper. Two years ago, I had to go to Kos from CPH. It was not just holiday. Norwegian g
55 prebennorholm: That reminds me of one of the later SK "master blunders". Four people rented an abandoned wine castle near Rome for holidays. They went on a travel a
56 ju068: I think so too. Olympic Airways used the Atr-42 on its domestic network to remote Greek islands. Some of those airports are a true nightmare with sho
57 VV701: Selling off the family silver is, of course, a last resort. But if you are cash-strapped and faced with possible bankruptcy it is sometimes the only
58 Ferroviarius: In Norway: NO! In Sweden: YES! In Denmark: YES! Why? Because SAS still offeres "something better than Eco for a higher price" and there are upper cla
59 CF-CPI: So I'm told. It was considered a prime example of a company reorganizing itself and 'getting its act together'. I would be curious to know if some of
60 LN-KGL: CF-CPI, SAS started the DC-9 story with the -30 (leased from Swissair), so they had them too. In the late 90s they also leased a number of DC-9-81s fr
61 sweair: In the news today, Norway says no to more money for SK, they have to show that they can make a profit on their own, IMO a wise politician at last! I h
62 kyrone: My understanding is that Carlzon breathed a new vitality into the company, however many of the overly generous work rules date from his time. Ultimat
63 okobjorn: The Swedish stock exchange suspended all trade with SAS shares this morning due to the rumours that the Scandinavian governments will not be bailing o
64 sweair: SK has made a loss the last 3 years in a row and will make a loss this year as well, running out of taxpayers money again. There has to be a point whe
65 CO38: I bet there will be issued a statement that SK will sell WF (Im guessing the WF employees + one or two external investors will be the buyers) WF has
66 CPHFF: Well, they REALLY need to pull a rabbit out of the hat this time. With 3 State owners (+ a few private), that has to negotiate with 36 different Union
67 LN-KGL: SAS has released the Q3 results ten days earlier than planned to try to stop the speculation flood the last days. The EBT for Q3 was +568 MSEK and wit
68 CF-CPI: If this is the case, it does seem out of step with typical work rules these days. I am just surprised that the company bleeds red ink, and these deta
69 kyrone: It was the case as of a few years ago (around SEA closing) and to my knowledge longhaul crews do still stay at rather swanky (eg pricey) downtown hot
70 kyrone: I dont think its hate..... Just extreme disappointment at seeing an iconic Scandinavian brand flop around like a fish out of water. I think alot of A
71 sweair: I hate waste of my tax money that´s all. I don't go to work to have others waste what I earn. Those who defend SK must be either employees, stock own
72 Mortyman: SAS has been seperated in 4 before. It has only in the last few year come back to being one again. When SAS was SAS Norway ( SAS Braathens ), SAS Swe
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