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IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL  
User currently onlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 832 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8096 times:

Iberia/Iberia Express has announced the suspension of services to Amsterdam, Berlin-Tegel and Stockholm-Arlanda, from January 10, 2013, and a reduction in frequencies in domestic services to Malaga, Sevilla, Fuerteventura, Lanzarote, Mallorca and Alicante. According to the Spanish media, this is a way to pressure Iberia pilots' unions since IAG wants to execute thousands of layoff notices.

(Spanish only):

http://www.cincodias.com/articulo/em...elos-invierno/20121029cdscdsemp_2/

Interestingly, if those services are finally suspended, the only direct service connecting Madrid and Berlin (SXF) would be Easyjet, and Ryanair the only remaining carrier in the Madrid-Stockholm (NYO) route. For AMS, there is still Air Europa and KLM (Easyjet is also cancelling MAD-AMS in December).

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7872 times:

Looks as if IB doesn't believe in the Spanish economy either...


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7824 times:

I just went with IB on ARN-MAD, it was at a good price too, nice service and planes, a bit worn A321s, but friendly FAs all the way. Hopefully they will come back some day, soon there will only be Norwegian from ARN going to ALC or in that area and their prices were a lot higher than IBs in September. Any chance that Air Nostrum could expand up here?   Really great flying with them.

User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1676 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7749 times:

Very strange to see them leave AMS. They know their numbers, but from my point of view this is not the most logical route to suspend.
Anyway, the gap will be filled without a doubt.



flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7646 times:

Maybe Vueling will (return?) on the MAD-AMS route, going from four to two operators (with easyjet also winding down MAD) its easy to see where the fares will be heading. Looks like if I want to visit AMS next year it certainly will not be via MAD....


from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently onlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 832 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7649 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 2):
Quoting DALCE (Reply 3):

There is no logic at all, it is a way to pressure the unions. Let's see whether those "suspensions" are finally put in place.


User currently offlineMFC From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7161 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
There is no logic at all, it is a way to pressure the unions. Let's see whether those "suspensions" are finally put in place.

I agree with you, no sense at all.



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3077 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7142 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Thread starter):
Very strange to see them leave AMS. They know their numbers, but from my point of view this is not the most logical route to suspend.
Anyway, the gap will be filled without a doubt.

I've taken this route multiple times on KLM, and never paid more than €99 r/t. It's also a regular fixture on KLM's sales. Clearly the yields are garbage on this route.


User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6971 times:

MAD-NYO frequencies may well increase soon as it is currently 3/wk then especially as SK are struggling as mentioned on here.

User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5160 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6927 times:

Quoting rwsea (Reply 7):
I've taken this route multiple times on KLM, and never paid more than €99 r/t. It's also a regular fixture on KLM's sales. Clearly the yields are garbage on this route.

I've also flown Air Europa in this route a few times... planes were full, but I booked late (3 weeks before) and paid about 119!!!


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6829 times:

Quoting DALCE (Reply 3):

Anyway, the gap will be filled without a doubt.

Skyteam will be very pleased. Not only does this mean that IB is gone from the local market, but also from AMS to Latin America. Added bonus for Skyteam is that they decided to cancel ARN as well.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
There is no logic at all, it is a way to pressure the unions. Let's see whether those "suspensions" are finally put in place.

They'll loose business anyway as these flights are currently not bookable. This means anyone travelling to/from MAD will take another option. Moreover, anyone flying between AMS and Latin America will its options reduced considerably. Finally, this doesn't look good for IAGs presence in AMS.


Quoting rwsea (Reply 7):
I've taken this route multiple times on KLM, and never paid more than €99 r/t. It's also a regular fixture on KLM's sales. Clearly the yields are garbage on this route.

There is a fair amount of business traffic on the route though this has diminished (and will diminish even further) due to the crisis in Spain. However, I don;t think it's a garbage route, moreover now U2 is gone.


User currently offlineMFC From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6739 times:

This whole thing is really disappointing. I don't see what's the point. You say the cause is the crisis in Spain, but Portugal ,for example, is in bad shape too and TAP hasn't axed any European route as far as I know. Fighting between Unions and Iberia is really hurting the company and the whole country.


So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6636 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
There is no logic at all, it is a way to pressure the unions. Let's see whether those "suspensions" are finally put in place.

I agree. There is definitely a market for two carriers btw MAD and Stockholm/Berlin. AMS was maybe a bloodbath with IB, U2 and KL/UX on the route, but with U2 already pulling out IB could have remained. Strange things going on here...


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5160 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6572 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 10):
They'll loose business anyway as these flights are currently not bookable. This means anyone travelling to/from MAD will take another option. Moreover, anyone flying between AMS and Latin America will its options reduced considerably. Finally, this doesn't look good for IAGs presence in AMS.

IAG still have about 18 flights a day with BA between Amsterdam & London I wouldn't be casting doubts on an IAG presence in the market.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 811 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6299 times:

It doesn't make sense that a) Iberia Express is cutting routes when IAG has been at pains to emphasise that Iberia Express has been a operational and financial success and b) that these routes are major European cities that feed the Iberia hub at Madrid.

This just doesn't add up.


User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1676 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4432 times:

I wonder how long it takes for HV to jump in the gap.
Downside would be that they are basically KL, and with UX and KL already operating prices will rise.......



flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3489 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 14):
It doesn't make sense that a) Iberia Express is cutting routes when IAG has been at pains to emphasise that Iberia Express has been a operational and financial success and b) that these routes are major European cities that feed the Iberia hub at Madrid.

Indeed. Except that at the moment Iberia Express is capped at 14 aircraft due to a decision by a government appointed mediator that came up with the "brilliant" idea of ruling that the creation of Iberia express was legal, but that its pilots would have to join the mainline hierarchy -rather than be a separate company.
So an unworkable ruling that has been appealed, but that has IB Express in limbo.
Perhaps IB will use these routes as a bargaining chip as to the future of IB Express. Something along the lines of "It's IB express or nothing"

In the meantime, BA is being blamed for the axing of this routes. IB's commercial director happens to be British.
http://www.preferente.com/noticias-d...cuencias-en-otras-seis-234524.html


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3330 times:

More surprises from Iberia... Besides one of the biggest European airlines being totally absent from Eastern Europe (besides their Vueling-branded flights to Moscow).

I was also surprised to notice that QR ranks 3rd intercontinental airline out of BCN in term of passengers transporter (way ahead of EK!). No market for IB to step-in on BCN->Middle East?


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 809 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3227 times:

Quoting DALCE (Reply 15):

I wonder how long it takes for HV to jump in the gap.
Downside would be that they are basically KL, and with UX and KL already operating prices will rise.......
HV already operates RTM-MAD 4x/week and will operate EIN-MAD 4x/week from April 2013, so plenty of competition remains in NL-MAD market.

Also the number of direct flights between NL and Spanish destinations (Vueling, HV, Ryanair) is growing so there is less need for transfers in MAD, while KLM has added new LATAM destinations GIG, EZE and increased frequencies & capacity to PTY, GRU, LIM, GYA, UIO, etc.

Note that perhaps due to these effects and the Spanish economic crisis MAD-AMS fell from being the 2nd largest pax. market of AMS in 2010 to 3rd largest in 2011 (1.100.000 pax/year), having been overtaken by BCN-AMS which grew 24% last year to become the largest international market of BCN at 1.324.000 pax/year.

In movements MAD-AMS fell from 3rd largest in 2010 to being 6th largest market in 2011 having been overtaken by the number of flights between AMS-BCN, AMS-CPH and AMS-MUC.

[Edited 2012-10-30 06:08:04]

[Edited 2012-10-30 06:10:46]

[Edited 2012-10-30 06:11:23]

User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2203 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 16):
Except that at the moment Iberia Express is capped at 14 aircraft due to a decision by a government appointed mediator that came up with the "brilliant" idea of ruling that the creation of Iberia express was legal, but that its pilots would have to join the mainline hierarchy -rather than be a separate company.
So an unworkable ruling that has been appealed, but that has IB Express in limbo.
Perhaps IB will use these routes as a bargaining chip as to the future of IB Express. Something along the lines of "It's IB express or nothing"

Thank you for this important information. This proves that the decision is not a commercial, but a legal one. People are very quick nowadays to blame everything on the crisis in Spain by default, instead of looking into the issues.
It seems that IB has its hands tied and cannot operate in a normal way until the conflict with the pilot unions is solved. Let's hope it happens soon as this neverending uncertainty is badly hurting IB.

[Edited 2012-10-31 06:37:01]

User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2080 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 16):

Indeed. Except that at the moment Iberia Express is capped at 14 aircraft due to a decision by a government appointed mediator that came up with the "brilliant" idea of ruling that the creation of Iberia express was legal, but that its pilots would have to join the mainline hierarchy -rather than be a separate company.
So an unworkable ruling that has been appealed, but that has IB Express in limbo.
Perhaps IB will use these routes as a bargaining chip as to the future of IB Express. Something along the lines of "It's IB express or nothing"

Interesting. I didn't know about this new ruling. It will be interesting to know how this plays out. IAG are obviously prepared to play hardball if they are prepared to axe the likes of AMS which has been served for over 40 years.

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 1):
Looks as if IB doesn't believe in the Spanish economy either...

This is clearly nothing to do with the economy, but rather a tactic to deal with the unions.


User currently offlinejuanpedro From Netherlands, joined Oct 2012, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

This is very surprising, and makes little sense. I've flown AMS-MAD approx 20 times this year on IB and the flights are invariably full, mainly with passengers connecting to LATAM destinations (including myself).

Currently AMS-MAD-AMS flights on IB are largely booked out through Nov-Dec (so much so that I cannot use IB to go to LIM in Nov or Dec....).

So either IB is badly mismanaging yields on this service, or they are playing a political game that makes little sense. Certainly passenger numbers are not to blame.....


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

Well, in case there were still any doubts about the legal rather than commercial reasons behind this, here is some further proof. The IB / I2 arbitration process is back to square one:

"The Spanish High Court has overturned the original arbitration process that nominally ended the conflict between Iberia and pilots union SEPLA, saying it was technically flawed and should be restarted.">/i>

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...are-one-after-court-ruling-378590/


User currently offlinetripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

AF/KLM will be very happy with IAG's choice to fight out their disputes in this way. This reduces quite some competition on the AMS - Latin America market. Also with Iberia gone from the ARN and BER markets, this might result in some additional Latin America traffic through AMS and CDG.

Is IAG expecting it can serve lost customers through BA's network?


User currently offlineMFC From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

Quoting tripple7 (Reply 23):
Is IAG expecting it can serve lost customers through BA's network?

Maybe it's their intention. Some voices say that they want Iberia to become weaker in benefit of BA.



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
25 RAGAZZO777 : Then BA should open up new Latin American destinations, because clearly the MAD hub is becoming less and less attractive vis-à-vis the other Europea
26 bluesky73 : I also linked news regarding IB Express ruling being illegal. Something is going on at IAG,l but can't put finger on it. It looks like they trying sha
27 Post contains images kl911 : It must be, not even Ryanair is flying to Madrid from EIN ( 1,5 hours from AMS )
28 Post contains links LHRFlyer : It seems that a major restructuring of Iberia will be announced on Friday and IAG presents is Q3 results: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...eria-
29 Post contains links theginge : http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zht...-newsArticle&ID=1755700&highlight=[Edited 2012-11-07 12:37:49]
30 MFC : Interesting weeks ahead, let's see what it happens.
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