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Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10679 posts, RR: 30
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 20067 times:

A French newspaper "Les Echos" published an interesting article about Air France and the A380. The company is not so happy with the current availability of the A380.

Here is the text by Google Translate. I made the interesting parts bold:

Quote:
Air France wants to be compensated for the unavailability of A380.

The Company believes that the technical problems too frequent and most importantly, repairs for micro-cracks in the wings, will deprive the equivalent of an A380 full year.

Three years after its entry into service in the Air France fleet, the A380 remains a tension between Air France-KLM and Airbus. Like other airlines such as Emirates, the French company claimed financial compensation to the manufacturer for the shortfall caused by too many outages of its very large aircraft, as well as measures to improve their reliability. The amount of these damages could reach tens of millions of euros. To date, discussions with Airbus protracted, as did the negotiations for the order of 25 A350-announced in the summer of 2011 and still not signed, which is not limited to the single issue of engine maintenance Rolls-Royce.

According to our information, the availability rate of A380-essential data for company-indeed remains well below expectations causing too many delays and cancellations. Eight A380 in the colors of Air France, carrying more than 4,000 daily passengers would display another failure rate by about 3%, nearly double the rate commonly accepted. Abnormalities most often harmless, which generally cause delays, but sorely test the patience of Air France teams and sometimes its passengers.

In July, an A380 en route to Japan was forced to return to Paris-Charles de Gaulle, after being forced to offload its fuel over the Baltic. In January, Air France was even found two A380 down the same day, one in Johannesburg and one in Roissy. At Air France, refused to comment on the difficulties of the A380, in order not to tarnish the image of the flagship, which continues to exert a certain attraction to customers. But the staff, problems and repeated delays begin to tire. "On all new aircraft, there is a phase of" debugging ", says one. But in the case of the A380, it does not get better as quickly as anticipated and regularity is significantly worse than when the online other aircraft. "

Beyond issues specific to mature all new aircraft, the main concern of Air France remains the problem of micro-cracks discovered in the wings of the A380 structure that will require many weeks of immobilization to perform repairs. If Airbus is committed to defray the entire cost of repairs, which will cost him a total of some 360 ​​million euros for the A380 hundred concerned, the manufacturer refuses to compensate the loss of gain related to the immobilization devices.

Or at Air France, it was the accounts: the program of inspections and repairs of the wings of A380 equivalent to immobilize the equivalent of a unit throughout the year, a shortfall of about 30 to 50 million euros. Commercial damage including Air France intends to be compensated. She is not the only one: the biggest customers for the A380, Emirates, which operates 25 A380s, also claiming to be indemnified. According to its CEO, Tim Clark, property caused by the problem of cracks already amounted to 90 million in March.

Source http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-s...disponibilites-des-a380-505696.php

[Edited 2012-10-30 14:31:57]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17335 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 19991 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
The company is not so happy with the unavailability of the A380.

Sounds like a blessing in disguise 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 19894 times:

I've had my last A380 flight downgraded to a 77W due to technical issues...


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently onlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8277 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 19757 times:
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Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 2):
e had my last A380 flight downgraded to a 77W due to technical issues...

How about Air France launches the 777-9X with an order for 20 ? That would go over in Paris about as well as a bad vintage for Dom Perignon.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6527 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 19428 times:

Well if it has new wings and stuff, the teething problems could be there too.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2754 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 19321 times:
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I'm surprised most of the teething problems haven't been worked out by now. The A380 is a beautiful airplane, but one has to wonder if it is just too much airplane. Though I have to imagine people said that about the 747 back in the day. Hopefully the wing crack issue gets solved very soon. I can't imagine it is helping the order book much.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 19324 times:

Hmmmm AF is complaining loud and clear about the A380 and EK can't order enough of them .... where is the disconnect ?

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6129 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 19258 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
How about Air France launches the 777-9X with an order for 20 ? That would go over in Paris about as well as a bad vintage for Dom Perignon.

I seriously doubt, even though they are a private carrier, that they would forego airbus A380s for more Boeing planes. As you said, that would give a fit to the people inhabiting the Elysée.

If they do, however, why would they go with the 777-9X if the 747-8i is available much sooner?



MGGS
User currently offlineiahmark From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 19165 times:

Seems this could be a blessing in disguise for Boeing as it’s the only other choice for a big plane with 4 engines, meaning the B747-8i.

Maybe AF needs to reevaluate its long range fleet strategy and to take a page from the Lufthansa handbook and split it between A380’s and 748’s, makes sense not to have all your eggs in one basket.


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 19164 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
How about Air France launches the 777-9X with an order for 20 ? That would go over in Paris about as well as a bad vintage for Dom Perignon.

Careful what you wish for; the 748 and 787 program launches are certainly not without pains, particularly in the powerplant department.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 5):
The A380 is a beautiful airplane

Sir, you need to hire a new seeing-eye dog, as yours is clearly just as blind as you are!

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 6):
Hmmmm AF is complaining loud and clear about the A380 and EK can't order enough of them .... where is the disconnect ?

EK likes the economics of the plane, but you can't speak as though the ineffable Tim Clark hasn't spoken VERY publicly about his demands for compensation for the wing crack issue.


User currently offlinemusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 18951 times:

And LH running them with no apparent issues like these guys??


Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlinericknroll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 780 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 18818 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 5):
I'm surprised most of the teething problems haven't been worked out by now. The A380 is a beautiful airplane, but one has to wonder if it is just too much airplane. Though I have to imagine people said that about the 747 back in the day. Hopefully the wing crack issue gets solved very soon.

The cracks have been resolved, it's a matter of getting the production line changed, and a once off fix for existing customers or planes coming off the line. The fix only has to be done once for each plane, but it is time consuming.


User currently offlinepesit4a From Ireland, joined Jul 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 18398 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):

Given AF's long haul fleet is built around the 777, with some 55 operated, I fail to see why that would be a big deal?



You just can't keep a good man down!
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 18048 times:

I wonder if other airlines are having dispatch issues comparable to AF's. Does the 3% figure include time for repair of the cracks or does that issue bump up the figure?

User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4363 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 17709 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):


Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 5):
The A380 is a beautiful airplane

Sir, you need to hire a new seeing-eye dog, as yours is clearly just as blind as you are!

Have to agree, I hope you're not a fighter Pilot with vision like that !



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6527 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16864 times:

Well, a lot of people here seem to find the hunchback of the skies (aka the 747) beautiful, so why not the A380 ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6129 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16816 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
Well, a lot of people here seem to find the hunchback of the skies (aka the 747) beautiful, so why not the A380 ?

And...the above statement is an example of why AF will never dump the A380 in favor of the next VLA, no matter how much they fuss.



MGGS
User currently offlineIDAWA From Italy, joined Aug 2004, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15512 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16):
And...the above statement is an example of why AF will never dump the A380 in favor of the next VLA, no matter how much they fuss.

I think that politics play a large role...after all we are talking about a French-built aircraft being the flagship of the French flag carrier. I see a similar pattern with BA choosing RR-powered aircraft whenever possible, regardless of the proven lower reliability of the latter.



Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8863 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15369 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):

Sounds to me like they are negotiating through the papers for compensation, a leaf out of the Qatar book.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 13):

No, the wing repairs will be done during normal maintenance phases, pulling an aircraft out of service because it hit another does.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15065 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
I seriously doubt, even though they are a private carrier, that they would forego airbus A380s for more Boeing planes. As you said, that would give a fit to the people inhabiting the Elysée.

It already happened, lately with the 77W vs A346. And I'm glad AF chose the right aircraft! Now with almost 60 on the fleet, we cannot really say that AF has a biased fleet planning...

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 10):
And LH running them with no apparent issues like these guys??
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 13):
I wonder if other airlines are having dispatch issues comparable to AF's. Does the 3% figure include time for repair of the cracks or does that issue bump up the figure?

Maybe LH just talks less about it. And I don't see why AF would have more dispatch issue that other airlines. And the article is leaking that EK has the same troubles...

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
Well, a lot of people here seem to find the hunchback of the skies (aka the 747) beautiful, so why not the A380 ?

Come on! You cannot compare a 747 to a 380, aesthetically! Maybe you too need glasses?  



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14334 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 19):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
I seriously doubt, even though they are a private carrier, that they would forego airbus A380s for more Boeing planes. As you said, that would give a fit to the people inhabiting the Elysée.

It already happened, lately with the 77W vs A346. And I'm glad AF chose the right aircraft! Now with almost 60 on the fleet, we cannot really say that AF has a biased fleet planning...

It amazes me that Americans still think AF makes it purchasing decisions under the control of the Elysee when they were the LAUNCH customer for Boeing for the 77W and have one of the largest 777 fleets in the world!!



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 258 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14047 times:
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This is clearly a strategy from AF regarding negotiation on something else.

I recall an article about LH and its 747-8 reliability (can't remember from whom), they said there were getting there quickly, but that it was not yet up to the DR of the A380, close to 99/100%, for which they were very happy.

SIA is buying 5 more of them, so they seem to be happy about it too.

And all in the same while, the A350XWB contract is still under discussion (mainly due to Rolls, i agree).



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3374 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13947 times:

I always got the impression that the A380 was turning out to be a bit on the large size for AF, they deferred some deliveries and the order is still relatively small.

Maybe they're looking to swap some of their remaining orders for the as yet unsigned A350 order?


User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13528 times:

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 10):

LH has had several engine changes due to fumes of engine oil in the cabin. The german media did report on that issue.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8202 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11517 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
A French newspaper "Les Echos" published an interesting article about Air France and the A380. The company is not so happy with the current availability of the A380.

Given my recent experience with AF where I didn't fly the A380 and 3 out of 4 flights were late, I'm more inclined to think that the problem is AF and not the A380.


25 YULWinterSkies : Yep, that'd be cool. Would not go over very well in Paris perhaps, but this is somewhat legitimate, from a non-av expert perspective (government, med
26 Post contains links ap305 : http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...sh-up-dispatch-reliability-376362/ 99.3% dispatch reliability for the a380.[Edited 2012-10-31 09:12:10]
27 olddominion727 : Regarding the cracks and the engine issues (QF), I really hope these are teething issues and not something that's going to cause a crash because EADS
28 Post contains images mffoda : That is major difference between what AF says and the A380 marketing head! It wasn't that long ago here on a-net, that the A & B mafia's were arg
29 brilondon : Yeah, there were problems but the wings were not about to fall off in turbulence.
30 musapapaya : And A or B being higher, may I know? lol...
31 Post contains images ap305 : I doubt if even a marketing chap would spin about dispatch reliability . The Bird has its issues but we would have heard a lot more from the other op
32 OzGlobal : Sorry, but I'm going to keep on insisting, NO AIRLINE has shown its fierce independence in aircraft choice from government interference like AF.... P
33 mercure1 : But Air France does tow the Elysee line --- its management has even said so Recent examples -- 1) Split 787/A350 orders 2) Inability to move ahead and
34 Aesma : AF is also partially state owned. And currently it's not just in Paris that it wouldn't go well but across the country (and of course Toulouse), when
35 Post contains images mffoda : Is it just me... or does this comment ring funny?
36 Viscount724 : AF was also the first non-US customer and operator of the 727-200 and took delivery of 29. Some years earlier AF was also the first European carrier
37 Post contains images mffoda : In all fairness to several of the above posts... There were no European (Airbus) equivalents to the 747 & 777 when AF ordered these aircraft. I'm
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