Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
WN Cuts MDW - IND Eff 11/3/2012  
User currently offlineB377 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 142 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6777 times:

I hadn't seen that WN is discontinuing the MDW - IND market effective this coming Saturday posted on Airliners.net. It is confirmed on Southwest.com. Where there other routes cut in this schedule change?

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4433 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6652 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting B377 (Thread starter):
hadn't seen that WN is discontinuing the MDW - IND market effective this coming Saturday posted on Airliners.net. It is confirmed on Southwest.com. Where there other routes cut in this schedule change?


Yes, including WN's shortest route, RSW-MCO.

All Nov 4:

Southwest's discontinued markets include:
Birmingham and Nashville
Ft. Myers and Orlando
Indianapolis and Chicago Midway


Southwest's new markets include:
Two daily nonstop flights between Dallas Love Field and Harlingen
One daily nonstop flight between Denver and Louisville
Two daily nonstop flights between Houston Hobby and Indianapolis
One daily nonstop flight between Houston Hobby and Orange County
One daily nonstop flight between Kansas City and New Orleans

Southwest assumes flying from AirTran:
One daily nonstop flight between Key West and Orlando
One daily nonstop flight between Key West and Tampa Bay
Two daily nonstop flights between Boston Logan and Milwaukee
One daily nonstop flight between Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood and Milwaukee
Five daily nonstop flights between Minneapolis-St. Paul and Milwaukee
One daily nonstop flight between San Francisco and Milwaukee
One daily nonstop flight between Orlando and Minneapolis-St. Paul

AirTran's seasonal new markets include:
One daily nonstop flight between Buffalo and Tampa Bay
One daily nonstop flight between Akron-Canton and Ft. Myers
One daily nonstop flight between Columbus and Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood
One daily nonstop flight between Columbus and Tampa Bay
One daily nonstop flight between Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood and Indianapolis
One daily nonstop flight between Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood and Philadelphia
One daily nonstop flight between Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay
One daily nonstop flight between Rochester and Tampa Bay
Four weekly nonstop flights between Flint and Ft. Myers
Four weekly nonstop flights between Grand Rapids and Ft. Myers


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6637 times:

This route probably stems from the ATA days, but honestly I think it's more convenient to just drive to Chi-town if there is a need to visit there. Does AA have a route from IND to ORD?


Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlinemls515 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3077 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6615 times:

Chalk one up for Megabus.

User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1041 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6612 times:

Actually WN has been serving IND-MDW well before ATA was even a scheduled airline...


xx
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4433 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6610 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Does AA have a route from IND to ORD?

Yes, appears 7x daily ERJ on AA and I cound 11 on UA (this might be slightly off) mix of CRJ/CR7/E145/E170.


User currently offlineskycub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6587 times:

This is old news.

It was announced months ago along with MCO-RSW and BHM-BNA.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

Quoting iowaman (Reply 5):
Yes, appears 7x daily ERJ on AA and I cound 11 on UA (this might be slightly off) mix of CRJ/CR7/E145/E170.
Quoting mls515 (Reply 3):
Chalk one up for Megabus.

^ this. because of this, there literally is no O&D. it's so much easier to get to Chi-town from IND on megabus if just going for tourism. If someone needs to leave the country from IND they can just hop it up there on AE and UAex.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6440 times:

Northwest and American used to dominate the CHI-IND route with very high fares. Southwest brought those fares down. I imagine we'll see a return of high fares in the MDW-IND market.
Indianapolis has quite a number of companies based there, there should be some O&D with other firms in Chicago.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6424 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
[/quote
It's existed long before ATA. It's likely 95% connecting and thus with little local traffic the segment is unprofitable. Though it should have system contribution. Pax can connect over BWI or DEN to most places served via MDW. WN is changing. They're high cost and increasingly less profitable.

[quote=type-rated,reply=8]

I think you mean AA and US cuz NW never flew IND-CHI. USAir did in the old days.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6204 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
^ this. because of this, there literally is no O&D.

It's a significantly (several hundred percent) larger local market than RSW-MCO or BHM-BNA. The trouble is that it's quite overserved, albeit less so than 10 years ago with both TZ 738 flights and various large UA mainline aircraft going to IND for maintenance.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7691 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6084 times:

Quoting iowaman (Reply 1):
Southwest's discontinued markets include:
Birmingham and Nashville
Ft. Myers and Orlando
Indianapolis and Chicago Midway

Everything around 200 miles is in danger

Shortest left are:
AUS-HOU 148
BWI-ORF 159**
OAK-RNO 180**
DAL-OKC 181
CRP-HOU 187**
AUS-DAL 189
HOU-SAT 192
FLL-TPA 197**
LAS-ONT 197
...
ISP-BWI 220**

IMHO, the ones with astericks are in the most danger.

[Edited 2012-11-02 06:30:06]

[Edited 2012-11-02 06:30:39]

User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6003 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
IMHO, the ones with astericks are in the most danger.

Excluding flights between the original three cities and AUS, all of which should be safe, here are the rough local traffic and and average fares WN saw in Q311 (from faremeasure, so take them with a grain of salt):

BWI-ORF: 66 PDEW, $160
BWI-ISP: 200 PDEW, $123
OAK-RNO: 65 PDEW, $140
DAL-OKC: 65 PDEW, $153
CRP-HOU: 60 PDEW, $144
ONT-LAS: 253 PDEW, $122
TPA-FLL: 221 PDEW, $144

For comparison . . .

MDW-IND: 33 PDEW, $132
BHM-BNA: 8 PDEW, $132 (this one stuck around as long as it did because it carries a ton of BNA-DAL traffic)
MCO-RSW: 14 PDEW, $132

I can't speak to the quality of the beyond feed, but if ONT-LAS is safe, BWI-ISP likely is too. TPA-FLL has NK, but WN doesn't seem to have any trouble getting a significant fare premium to NK ($60 in the quarter I examined). As for the rest, all seem to do significantly better with local traffic than the three dropped routes, so I wouldn't necessarily conclude that they are in imminent danger of being cut.

Edited to fix error with ONT code and for clarity.

[Edited 2012-11-02 06:46:26]


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6348 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5996 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
CRP-HOU 187**

This is going nowhere......it is a long drive and people use it.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3683 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5945 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 13):
Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
CRP-HOU 187**

This is going nowhere......it is a long drive and people use it.

   The only city in PWN/FL network that only went to one city. WN has five daily nonstops to HOU and most continue on to DAL



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5916 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 14):
WN has five daily nonstops to HOU and most continue on to DAL

With the same caveats as the data above, WN carries about 68 local PDEW CRP-DAL at an average fare of $166.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5878 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 14):
The only city in PWN/FL network that only went to one city. WN has five daily nonstops to HOU and most continue on to DAL

PWM only goes to BWI with 3 frequencies.

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Everything around 200 miles is in danger

PIT-BWI is also short at 182.

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
ISP-BWI 220**

For ISP, BWI is the major connection to the most of WN network. MCO and TPA maybe for a few markets. Also, the drive is from Long Island to the DC region is congested. I'd be surprised if it was cut.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7691 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5841 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 13):
This is going nowhere......it is a long drive and people use it.
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 14):
The only city in PWN/FL network that only went to one city. WN has five daily nonstops to HOU and most continue on to DAL
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
With the same caveats as the data above, WN carries about 68 local PDEW CRP-DAL at an average fare of $166.

That's awful. Have you seen the LFs? LOL. The 12 month *average * is 49%.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
BWI-ORF: 66 PDEW, $160
BWI-ISP: 200 PDEW, $123
OAK-RNO: 65 PDEW, $140
DAL-OKC: 65 PDEW, $153
CRP-HOU: 60 PDEW, $144
ONT-LAS: 253 PDEW, $122
TPA-FLL: 221 PDEW, $144

Those fares are completely wrong. Here are the DOT fares from DB1B YE 2Q2012.
BWI-ORF $114
BWI-ISP $99
OAK-RNO $106
DAL-OKC $100
CRP-HOU $117
ONT-LAS $97
TPA-FLL $119


User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5822 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Everything around 200 miles is in danger

And about 134/145 from Seattle/SeaTac to Portland. Yoiks. And competing with Alaska to boot.

[Edited 2012-11-02 07:33:48]


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5808 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
Those fares are completely wrong. Here are the DOT fares from DB1B YE 2Q2012.

Yes, but they can be compared relatively because the methodology (and thus the errors) is identical for all of them. Faremeasure fares can be compared to faremeasure fares. They cannot be compared to DOT fares.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6194 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5786 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
OAK-RNO 180**

This route is not exactly get on the freeway and drive. The other routes you listed are nice, flat, straight drives. OAK-RNO during the winter requires chains or 4 wheel-drive and often deal with I-80 being closed during winter storms as you pass over the Sierra Nevada Mountains.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5460 times:

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 18):

And about 134/145 from Seattle/SeaTac to Portland. Yoiks. And competing with Alaska to boot.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but WN doesn't fly SEA-PDX. They're also stopping GEG-PDX in January.



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1763 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5382 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Shortest left are:
AUS-HOU 148
BWI-ORF 159**
OAK-RNO 180**
DAL-OKC 181
CRP-HOU 187**
AUS-DAL 189
HOU-SAT 192
FLL-TPA 197**
LAS-ONT 197
...
ISP-BWI 220**
Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
The other routes you listed are nice, flat, straight drives.

Actually, I think a common thread among the non-Texas routes above is that they are not nice, flat, straight drives. BWI-ORF is 159 miles as the crow flies, but the drive is either a circuitous trek that involves crossing the Bay twice or a highway route that passes through DC and past Richmond. The congested drive from Baltimore to central Long Island takes you up the Turnpike past Philadelphia, across NJ, and then across Staten Island to head past JFK. While FLL-TPA is certainly flat, it's not straight since I-75 goes due west to Naples before turning north toward Tampa. ONT-LAS would likely be the easiest drive, but even that can be plagued by congestion.

That isn't to say that none of these routes will be cut, I'm just pointing out that none of them are as short to drive as the flight distance suggests they may be.


User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4433 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5341 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
BWI-ORF: 66 PDEW, $160
BWI-ISP: 200 PDEW, $123
OAK-RNO: 65 PDEW, $140
DAL-OKC: 65 PDEW, $153
CRP-HOU: 60 PDEW, $144
ONT-LAS: 253 PDEW, $122
TPA-FLL: 221 PDEW, $144
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
MDW-IND: 33 PDEW, $132
BHM-BNA: 8 PDEW, $132 (this one stuck around as long as it did because it carries a ton of BNA-DAL traffic)
MCO-RSW: 14 PDEW, $132

Wow. The three that are being cut should of been cut a long time ago looking at those numbers.

DAL-OKC has five flights a day along with CRP-HOU. The amount of connecting traffic must be astonishing, which is something WN has said they aren't after.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5310 times:

Quoting iowaman (Reply 23):
DAL-OKC has five flights a day along with CRP-HOU. The amount of connecting traffic must be astonishing, which is something WN has said they aren't after.

Words aside, WN has long been comfortable with two thirds or more passengers connecting on select routes, both these and some longer ones (e.g. LIT-STL).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 enilria : Faremeasure is a screen scrape is it not? That tells you nothing about the mix and thus is no indication of anything related to the airline's revenue
26 Cubsrule : If you hold fare structure and mix constant - which we can reasonably do for similar WN markets - it tells us about relative revenue performance. Tha
27 PHX787 : What'd I say originally? my apologies
28 as739x : Your assuming I'm a non-Texan, and your right. But I have lived in Texas before and those drives are very easy vs. driving though mountains, being st
29 steex : You're missing my point - I wasn't disagreeing with you, just expanding your point to say that it really applies to several of the markets. Re-read t
30 Cubsrule : . . . or BHM-BNA, though MCO-RSW is a pain.
31 FWAERJ : I'm surprised that there's been 30 posts on WN exiting IND-MDW and zero mention of the likelihood that O&D fares for AA and UA on IND-ORD will pro
32 frmrCapCadet : Thanks for the correction.
33 Flytravel : There's also Amtrak (albeit limited service) between Indianapolis and Chicago. It'd likely make a better experience over Greyhound, and it works as a
34 MSYtristar : I've done IND-CHI on Amtrak before (train was the Cardinal...there's also the Hoosier State on the days the Cardinal doesn't run). Nice ride, but the
35 steex : Almost certainly true, but of course, that's also largely because the legacies don't especially plan to carry much O&D traffic on these extremely
36 FWAERJ : Outgoing (and term-limited) Indiana governor Mitch Daniels was one of the few Republican gubernatorial proponents of high-speed rail, and supported H
37 ouboy79 : You also have over 800 WN employees in OKC as well with a good deal of traffic between the two. On top of that, DAL-OKC is a pretty good market for t
38 milesrich : When did Northwest dominate the CHI-IND market? Before deregulation, it was a DL, AA, and EA market.
39 PHLBOS : Kind of like what happened earlier this year when WN dropped all of its PHL-New England (BOS/MHT/PVD) and it PHL-PIT routes; US (which hubs out of PH
40 okie : The Oil industry is connecting to HOU. WN has always had lots of flights between DAL and OKC which gives excellent access to the rest of their system
41 iowaman : With DAL-HOU at 4x daily plus UA having a few daily express flights to IAH I don't see why many people would connect in DAL from OKC to get to HOU. I
42 Post contains images ouboy79 : I think you meant OKC-HOU. However, you are right that most on the DAL-OKC aren't connecting on to HOU that much. There is plenty of nonstop options
43 SurfandSnow : Is anyone surprised?!? A few things to consider: From the Chicago/MDW perspective It is a very easy 3-3 1/2 hour drive from downtown Chicago to downto
44 iowaman : Wow not sure how I missed that, yes you are correct!
45 FWAERJ : IIRC, IND-MDW was 4x daily toward the end, not 2x. The replacement HOU service is 2x daily.
46 Flytravel : Regarding SDF and DAY, it seems existing service or potential service to MDW would make more sense from CVG. 3 carriers on Louisville to Chicago, a 5
47 Cubsrule : I understand what you are saying. That said, the length of many itineraries will increase, and that may drive some passengers away. It's tough to kno
48 bobloblaw : I think this kills the idea of GRR-MDW that some here have talked about. Without significant local, WN has signaled they can't and won't fly such rout
49 Cubsrule : It's tough to properly compare because of the different competitive landscapes, but I think GRR-CHI might be a larger market than IND-CHI with simila
50 FWAERJ : IIRC, prior to FL's arrival at GRR, much of GRR's leakage went to MDW.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
WN Cuts IND-STL posted Wed Feb 13 2002 23:20:28 by Pll-lot
TAM 3 Daily From MCO Eff Nov 2012 posted Thu Aug 2 2012 18:08:18 by NWADTWE16
OAG Changes 5/11/2012: DL/F9/UA/US posted Thu May 10 2012 06:22:31 by enilria
Rumor: SOC For WN/FL To Occur March 2nd, 2012 posted Tue Jan 3 2012 10:25:02 by atrude777
WN Landed At ATL Today (11/05/10) posted Fri Nov 5 2010 20:02:37 by suseJ772
Delta Flying 777 DTW-ATL Eff 11/1 posted Sun Sep 27 2009 12:04:11 by Capt.fantastic
WN And MDW To OKC, TUL, JAX, BOI... posted Wed Jul 15 2009 19:32:57 by NomoreRJs
WN Cabins Go Cashless Eff. September 9 posted Fri Aug 29 2008 12:28:05 by DL757FAN
Cape Air Flight From IND-SBN (11/13) Question posted Sun Nov 11 2007 15:28:00 by 7E72004
Allegiant Adds BGR-SFB Eff. 11/7/07 posted Wed Jul 18 2007 17:58:26 by PVD757