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Possible Antitrust Probe Of DL  
User currently offlineTriple7LR From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 97 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9543 times:

According to The Hill Delta really upset some folks by canceling MEM-AMS:

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-actio...-delta-after-tenn-flights-canceled

83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9473 times:

Even if they did break a "promise", why should DL keep a route that is losing money and bad for their busineess just to please Memphis? Yes, it is sad to see more widebody and international service leaving MEM, but is it really worth all this trouble?

"On Wednesday, he reiterated arguments that Delta has said Memphis would not lose jobs or flights, "

Did DL really say this? If they did, this probably wasn't very smart to do. And if they saw some potential for MEM at the time, obviously something hsa changed that made it logical to downsize MEM operations.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9457 times:

Oh, blackmail. What fun!


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineTriple7LR From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9341 times:

Personally I thinks it's a little petty on the Congressmans part and I've never heard of a merger that didn't have some job lose.

User currently offlinedeltaffindfw From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9232 times:

Every congress member in every state does the same thing for any company that does something detrimental to them. It's the nature of getting re-elected or looking good to your constituents versus the merits of the argument...

User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9149 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):
"On Wednesday, he reiterated arguments that Delta has said Memphis would not lose jobs or flights, "

Did DL really say this? If they did, this probably wasn't very smart to do. And if they saw some potential for MEM at the time, obviously something hsa changed that made it logical to downsize MEM operations.

I think he is confusing Richard Anderson with a well know major party politician.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8772 times:

If was a representative of that area, I'd be pretty upset too. We all know that recent airline acquisitions was primarily to eliminate competition. But they still get approved as long as the airlines say the right things.

Take this note: "The Delta spokesman said the decision to cut direct service to Amsterdam had nothing to do with the merger."

We all know that's a bunch of baloney. The dismantling of the MEM hub, and subsequent MEM-AMS cut, is a direct result of the combined airline.


User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 438 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8742 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 6):
We all know that's a bunch of baloney. The dismantling of the MEM hub, and subsequent MEM-AMS cut, is a direct result of the combined airline.


How so?


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10655 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8689 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 6):
If was a representative of that area, I'd be pretty upset too. We all know that recent airline acquisitions was primarily to eliminate competition. But they still get approved as long as the airlines say the right things.

Take this note: "The Delta spokesman said the decision to cut direct service to Amsterdam had nothing to do with the merger."

We all know that's a bunch of baloney. The dismantling of the MEM hub, and subsequent MEM-AMS cut, is a direct result of the combined airline.

What DL HAD said was that no "frontline" jobs would be lost due to the merger and I doubt if there were any as a direct result of the merger, but THAT was 3- 4 years ago. How long will it be before anyone (including on here) stops blaming EVERYTHING on the merger. Is there like a time limit?  


Is DL supposed to keep operating a flight, that is losing money, just because some "thinks" a promise was broken? It was not.......there were no jobs lost, in MEM or systemwide, as a direct result of the merger. Now, 4 years later, they MAY be reducing employees at MEM ( we have heard none of that in this) but are reducing a money losing flight.

[Edited 2012-11-02 18:19:14]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinethegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8646 times:

Just wait, soon it'll be someone bitching about out UA is pulling out of CLE.

User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1368 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8613 times:

Antitrust is a valid issue with any large merger but this just comes off a bit parochial in its concerns. I'm not familiar with antitrust law but it seems as if in this case it isn't so much a lack of competition (that's probably the case with most hub-and-spoke networks at a hub city) but rather redundancy now that the merged carrier has more hubs to choose from. If he was concerned about DL eliminating competition above all there would/should have been more stipulations back when the merger took place about where NW's assets went.

User currently offlinejcwr56 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 541 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8579 times:

At the end of the day, being a Congressman has its privileges on being able to call people out on things. In the end, DL will have to appease him somehow especially when political payback might be needed with his House friends from Georgia.

User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8446 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 7):
How so?

Do I really need to explain that?

Alright then. Why is MEM being dismantled as a hub? I bet it's because the largest hub in the world is nearby, and so Delta is largely competing against itself for connection service. Of course you don't want to compete against yourself, so one half of the equation goes away to fix that. We would call that collusion if we had still had two separate companies, but now with one, it's fair game.

Quoting mayor (Reply 8):
How long will it be before anyone (including on here) stops blaming EVERYTHING on the merger. Is there like a time limit?

Simple. When there's no more actions that were significantly affected by the acquisition. But don't hold your breath on that. Look at how the AA/TW deal still affects current actions. The ripples last for a long, long time. If an airline doesn't like the feedback, tough beans. They've asked for it.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5939 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8280 times:

Quoting deltaffindfw (Reply 4):
Every congress member in every state does the same thing for any company that does something detrimental to them. It's the nature of getting re-elected or looking good to your constituents versus the merits of the argument...

And don't forget the timing... I'm sure they'll be a nice front page article in the Memphis Daily News (replete with a photograph of said Congressman) bashing Delta for destroying Memphis jobs etc etc, very conveniently 3 days before his re-election...

Or am I too cynical  



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8199 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 12):
Alright then. Why is MEM being dismantled as a hub?

High fuel costs. Limited O & D traffic. Continued economic weakness in the US and the EU. I could go on, but of course the conspiracy theorists will never acknowledge any of these issues. I find it ironic that a member of congress is telling a company how to run their business while the US gov is running trillion+ deficits year after year. If they worked in the business world, they would have sacked years ago for malfeasance.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10655 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8186 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 12):
Simple. When there's no more actions that were significantly affected by the acquisition. But don't hold your breath on that. Look at how the AA/TW deal still affects current actions. The ripples last for a long, long time. If an airline doesn't like the feedback, tough beans. They've asked for it.

Knowing your dislike for DL, I expect I'll be dead and buried by that time. The least little thing, that DL does that you don't like, you'll manage to spin it as being a result of the merger.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8167 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 12):
Look at how the AA/TW deal still affects current actions.

Yes, let's look at the the AA/TW deal. If not for the AA merger, it was pretty clear that TW was headed for Chapter 7 liquidation. The STL hub would have been dead from the get go, and all the staff would have had to start over from scratch.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8027 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 13):
And don't forget the timing... I'm sure they'll be a nice front page article in the Memphis Daily News (replete with a photograph of said Congressman) bashing Delta for destroying Memphis jobs etc etc, very conveniently 3 days before his re-election...

Or am I too cynical

  

Bingo!!!

This election season is getting ludicrous around here as well. The closer the election date and the worse it gets as the opponent will not have time to respond.

Okie


User currently offlineAirAfreak From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7574 times:
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I wonder if the Memphis - Amsterdam flight was cancelled due to low demand ex-Memphis OR due to the inbound flights feeding into Memphis did not carry enough demand to Amsterdam via Memphis?

Could this cancellation be due to an overwhelming number of passenger complaints in regards to their perception of the arrivals/departures facilities at Memphis?

How can Delta bring this flight back to make everyone happy? What needs to be done at Memphis? I'm sure someone at Network Planning can shed some light into what brought this flight to a halt.

(If I answered my own question, then someone please follow-up with facts.) This is an interesting topic to discuss.



Do you lead an Intercontinental life?
User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2473 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7398 times:

I am confused. There are a ton of exUSA flights to AMS on DL. I cannot imagine that DL would suspend this service without some serious thought if the loads were completely dependent on O&D travel. With flights originating from ATL/DTW/MSP/BOS/NYC/PDX/SEA, this is hardly an anti-trust issue.

Also, no offence to the MEM folks, but out of the NW hubs MEM was(is) my least favourite, strictly based on type of aircraft available into that city. Heck I even punish myself by flying into and out of NYC just to avoid a trip through MEM. Which is sad because if you are routed through MEM, you avoid a FAC fee (usually $5).

Having never using MEM customs, I cannot directly answer that question, but I cannot imagine a worse CBP/FIS facility than JFK T3.

But back to the OP. To me it seems to be politically driven, rather than strictly an anti-trust issue. You may get to AMS via almost every city DL flies non-stop to, along with a lot of other KLM connections with the JV.



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7280 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 6):
We all know that recent airline acquisitions was primarily to eliminate competition.

We do?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 6):
We all know that's a bunch of baloney.

The only thing we (everyone but you) ALL know is that NWA doesn't exist anymore...not at MSP, MEM, or anywhere else.

Please speak for yourself. WE don't need you to tell us ALL how to think or what to think.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7175 times:

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 11):
At the end of the day, being a Congressman has its privileges on being able to call people out on things. In the end, DL will have to appease him somehow especially when political payback might be needed with his House friends from Georgia.

I don't think you understand how Congress, and especially the House of Representatives works. Steve Cohen, who represents Shelby County (Memphis) Tennessee in the House of Representatives, is a Jewish Democrat. Of Georgia's 13 Congressional Districts, there are five Democrats and eight Republicans. Of the Five Democrats, only one is white, and he has been redistricted and will be probably be defeated next week, plus Georgia picked up a seat so the new line up will be Four Democrats, all of whom are black and represent the City of Atlanta, and areas around it, and 10 Republicans. Now which one of these members of the House are going to help out Steve Cohen? NONE. And the Majority Republicans are not going to touch a complaint like this with a ten foot pole.


User currently offlinejcwr56 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 541 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6909 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 21):

Oh I know exactly how Congress works and let me tell you, being Jewish, Black or any race has little to do with it. In Congress you're in a members only club and at times they do take care of each other regardless of political sides.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6349 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 9):
Just wait, soon it'll be someone bitching about out UA is pulling out of CLE.

or IAH-CDG getting cancelled cause of the merger.

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 18):
What needs to be done at Memphis? I'm sure someone at Network Planning can shed some light into what brought this flight to a halt.

Who needs NP? It got canned cause it wasn't working and wasn't in thier strategic plan going forward.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 22):
Oh I know exactly how Congress works and let me tell you, being Jewish, Black or any race has little to do with it. In Congress you're in a members only club and at times they do take care of each other regardless of political sides.

No offense, but I think you have been in a political coma since 1994 when Newt Gingrich engineered the GOP takeover of the House of Representatives. Cohen is just blabbering for his own political purposes. He is a white Southern Democrat, a vanishing species, and he represents a very large black population, Harold Ford's old Congressional Seat. No Congressman in Georgia is going to go after Delta Air Lines, one of if not Georgia's largest payroll producer, let alone do anything to hurt Delta's hub operation at Hartsfield JACKSON.


25 B757forever : Sure, give it a try. How would you maintain a hub with low O&D and very high fuel costs?
26 FI642 : Why was anyone surprised to see this happen? Some were surprised it lasted as long as it did.
27 PHX787 : DL upset quite a lot of people across the board, especially at MEM and CVG. I had a feeling this was coming for a while, especially after I took a un
28 Cubsrule : Cutting service would almost never violate competition law.
29 Post contains images Mir : If DL never agreed to anything with the DOT relating to retaining capacity out of MEM as a condition of the merger (and I don't believe they did), the
30 Cubsrule : There was a way, just not a way that panned out: 4 percent annual GDP growth and $40 oil. (Somewhat smaller growth numbers and higher oil prices woul
31 DeltaMD90 : Kinda silly... JFK posed a significant threat to CVG. DTW undoubtedly made things worse, but I don't really see how CVG would survive fully with the
32 Mir : DTW killed CVG off, not NYC. -Mir
33 Post contains images PHX787 : despite DL's promises to KCAB, we all knew that the downsizing was going to happen, but we're equally as pissed as travelers. We're just glad that P&
34 DeltaMD90 : Yes I know that and stated that. I am saying that in a non-merged DL I think we'd see JFK/LGA start eating away at CVG (not at the rate we see now bu
35 flyguy89 : I don't think so, DL was already down-sizing CVG pre-merger so I agree with you that absent a NW merger, CVG would have been smaller than before, pro
36 Cubsrule : The more interesting question is whether the poor economics of 50 seat CRJs would have killed CVG absent a merger. Before the DL/NW merger, no legacy
37 flyguy89 : Oh that definitely would have been a major hurdle, but I don't think so. CVG did well as a hub for about 10 years before the 50-seat RJ made it's deb
38 Cubsrule : Oh, I agree. The question is whether RJ economics would have gotten so bad at some point that we would have seen CVG cut back to 150-200 flights. Rem
39 Post contains images mayor : I'll say it again.......if a route, flight or city is cut from the system, say, 20 years down the road, does that qualify as being a result of the mer
40 Cubsrule : Today, no, but when was LAX-GDL cut? It was more than a decade after the WA merger and was arguably cut as a result of the merger. AA took close to a
41 PHX787 : I honestly think that w/o the merger and WITH the 50-seaters retiring, DL would've probably updated OH's fleet to something more profitable. Sure fli
42 Mir : 20 years from now, probably not. But we're not even 10 years removed from the merger. -Mir
43 PHX787 : We're barely 4 in fact. IIRC it was announced in 2008 and finalized in 2010.
44 delta2ual : That's why airlines (actually every corporation) always adds "at this time". Where I work, everytime someone asks a question about furloughs, we are
45 mayor : What I'm getting at is, WHEN does an action cease to be as a result of the merger? I believe it was cut before I retired in '05, but how is that a re
46 Cubsrule : I'd suggest that that is exactly the situation with MEM-AMS or, if you think that is too far removed from the merger, routes like ATL-PVG. The pictur
47 mayor : ATL-PVG could have been cut, merger or not. The only connection that MEM-AMS has with the merger is that it was a NW route, but the reason it was cut
48 PHX787 : IMO after all the cuts that happen immediately after the merger happens cease, or when the airline begins expanding into further markets beyond what
49 Cubsrule : ATL-PVG did well? Likewise, if people in ATL need to go to PVG, there are any number of ways they can get there . . . just not nonstop. If anything,
50 mayor : Where did I say that? I think I indicated that ATL-PVG would have been cut, merger or no merger and the merger wouldn't have been the reason. So, the
51 Mir : That's a subjective question - it depends on the route. But it's pretty clear that the drawdown of a hub acquired by merger in close proximity to a l
52 Cubsrule : Why do you think that? It was PMDL's only way to access China. It was more indispensible than MEM-AMS. I never said the merger was the reason it was
53 mayor : Ok.....lets put it this way. How long should an airline maintain a route that is losing money, without worrying whether the reasons were merger relat
54 Flighty : I think it is important to remember that, yes, the scenario that played out at MEM does demonstrate precisely why approving the DL/NW merger was no sl
55 toobz : It's so strange people get upset over things like this. DL wouldn't be cutting the route if it was making money. Why would they!? Should they keep it
56 Cubsrule : It shouldn't. That was sort of my point. It's not like there's some point at which the merger is magically no longer relevant to network planning.
57 Mir : Here's why that logic doesn't really work in this case: that route was doomed the moment the merger happened. MEM could never support the flight on t
58 RDH3E : It depends what you mean by finalized. You could look at it a couple ways... "On September 26, 2008 it was announced that both Delta and Northwest's
59 DTWPurserBoy : Also, DL likes to play MEM against the ATL Airport Authority--especially when negotiating lease rates. Remember a couple of years ago when they threat
60 PHX787 : Still it is a short time. For lawyers sake, DL would not immediately axe and merge CVG and MEM to ATL and DTW, because that would result in the anti-
61 Cubsrule : Why? Again, it's not usually anticompetitive to cut service.
62 PHX787 : But after promising to keep service? Here's the thing- we need to figure out what kinds of "promises" that DL made to CVG and MEM regarding their ser
63 enilria : This is all political, but I do think if we are going to have 3 airlines in this country, there should be periodic anti-trust review of the remaining
64 Cubsrule : You need to separate "anticompetitive" - which is an antitrust law issue - with "anticonsumer" - which is not. Cutting routes doesn't present any ant
65 PSU.DTW.SCE : Absent a merger, it unknown how an independent DL and independent NW would've made it through the aftermath of the economic downturn, the run-up in fu
66 MSPNWA : Where it can be anti-competitive is when you buy out a competitor and use that acquisition to cut service and therefore competition. We're seeing tha
67 Cubsrule : No, again, cutting service is not generally anticompetitive because cuts theoretically make it easier for others to start service. That theory doesn'
68 DeltaMD90 : Well back then the airlines were struggling to make money. I'm not saying consolidation made all the difference, but it at least created a healthy en
69 PHX787 : It is also anti-competitive when you use predatory tactics to drive out other airlines while continuing to slash service and raise prices.
70 Flighty : That event was *particularly* interesting, yes. It showed they do have a functioning office for network antitrust issues. DL-NW was iffy. Losses in t
71 Cubsrule : What law does slashing service and raising prices violate?
72 PHX787 : Anti-trust laws are extremely complicated. One can lawsuit on pretty much anything. A quick look at wiki will show you what kinds of options CVG has,
73 Cubsrule : I'm familiar with them. I have studied and worked in the field. I don't believe that cutting service and raising prices (by itself) is illegal. You e
74 TVNWZ : How can you have a predatory tactic by slashing service and raising prices. I have only seen it work the other way: add service to the extreme and lo
75 phxa340 : Then stop paying the high fares. Obviously the market is OK with the high fares or they would stop paying them and utilize alternative airports or ot
76 PHX787 : You're not really too familiar with the plight of the frequent flier out of CVG. We've dealt with lack of service quality and extreme expenses over t
77 TVNWZ : Actually, I am. I think you have a lot of service, just not as much as you used to have. That is the plight of several cities. That might be conjectu
78 mayor : But that's not a predatory tactic, is it? To be predatory, they would have to be trying to drive another carrier out. Has that happened in CVG? NO, i
79 Cubsrule : . . . and that, if it happens, is anticompetitive. But it has not happened yet. Careful. WN was already fairly large at STL before AA killed the hub.
80 MSPNWA : Cutting service alone is not illegal. It's how you do it that could be. I think we're in agreement on that. Different? When competition law is antitr
81 texan : It can be illegal if it is predatory, as PHX787 claims. It is almost impossible to prove, but the predation (predatory pricing) law claim can move fo
82 Cubsrule : AA v. Ozark II also.
83 mayor : But, since we're talking about MEM (and throwing in CVG for good measure), the fact is that fares are HIGHER in those two cities and the operation ha
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