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787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11  
User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2268 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 28728 times:
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The old thread 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 10 (by wilco737 Oct 5 2012 in Civil Aviation) was rather long, so please continue here in Part 11

NZ1
Forum Moderator

278 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 28848 times:

I've made changes to my tablse on the blog to reflect the current status of the 787s waiting to be delvivered.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 28720 times:

If CAAC has issues about 787 certification, CAAC should just publish what they have concern with and let everybody make their judgement. If they are valid, I am sure there will be a lot of support to make the sky safer.

Again if it is certfication issues related, FAA could also publish what CAAC brought up.

Just wondering why all these silence about mothballing the 787s.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1846 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28668 times:
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Quoting cosmofly (Reply 2):
If CAAC has issues about 787 certification, CAAC should just publish what they have concern with and let everybody make their judgement. If they are valid, I am sure there will be a lot of support to make the sky safer.

That's not how the Chinese roll. They will be more subtle and use their considerable leverage in all sorts of different areas of our Govt. That is assuming this is the hold up.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 28312 times:

Quote:
They are probably removing the interiors to perform the electrical and A/C ducting rework. a good part of the interiors are common to all customers so I think it's smoke.

True, but the case of LN11, LN18 and LN22 is different. Boeing moved those frames back into storage after they did some work on it. Maybe they stripped the interiors and used it for the new frames, meaning LN11, LN18 and LN22 and maybe LN15 will go to another customer.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 28099 times:

As always, thank you to All Things 787 (NYC777) and others for the information that is summarized here. For more specific information on the production aircraft, I recommend going to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

33 Delivered to 7 Airlines

Deliveries Prior to November:
NH-16; JL-6; AI-3; ET-3; LA-2; UA–2; QR-1

Next Up (Tentative - Subject to Change):
L/N 44 - ET-AOP - 11/xx/2012 - ET #4
L/N 61 - SP-LRA - 11/09/2012 - LO #1
L/N 50 - N20902 - 11/xx/2012 - UA #3
L/N 80 - CC-BBC - 11/xx/2012 - LA #3 Awaiting first flight
L/N 55 - N26905 - TBD - UA #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 78 - SP-LRB - TBD - LO #2 Awaiting first flight

Also "Next Up" but not being accepted right away by the airlines:
L/N 54 - VT-ANJ - TBD - AI #4
L/N 60 - VT-ANK - TBD - AI #5
L/N 65 - VT-ANL - TBD - AI #6
L/N 72 - VT-ANM - TBD - AI #7 Awaiting first flight
L/N 64 - A7-BCL - TBD- QR #2
L/N 57 - A7-BCA - TBD - QR #3
L/N 62 - A7-BCC - TBD - QR #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 82 - A7-BC? - TBD - QR #5 Awaiting first flight

Please note that I have removed the Chinese aircraft from the “Next Up” list since they are being put in storage…


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 28100 times:

It is shocking to me that of the 19 aircraft that have completed production and change incorporation, 13 of them are for airlines that aren't taking delivery of them in a timely manner: AI, QR, HU & CZ. That is 68%! That has to be unprecedented for this type of program. The production seems to be clogged with aircraft for these four airlines...

It will be nice to get some more "normal" airlines as operators so Boeing can deliver planes at a pace that reflects it's production and change incorporation rate. Too bad that after LO takes delivery, it will be a while until BY and AM takes their first.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 28084 times:

QR is always a hassle for any program, AI is mostly financial, the Chinese carriers would probably love to take their frames but someone higher up is calling the shots now.

User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 450 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 28092 times:

Does anyone know what will happen to AT 787 ln17 & 19, will they wait for theirs or be given new slots and/or new builds?

thx


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 28104 times:

Quoting capri (Reply 8):
Does anyone know what will happen to AT 787 ln17 & 19, will they wait for theirs or be given new slots and/or new builds?

Rumor has it that they' will take new builds and that those frames will go to other customers.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 450 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 28085 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 9):



thank you NYC777


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 28101 times:

Quoting capri (Reply 10):
thank you NYC777

You can read more about it on http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/ram...efers-787-delivery-until-2014.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 450 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 28098 times:

It's strange that Boeing didn't comment on schedule change for AT, usually we are used to the other way around from AT, they never comment on anything even that famous hard landing at JFK in 2009, well anyway they are trying to sell 44% of its stake that no one will buy same as strangely their 4 A321 still didn't find a buyer since March through falko

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 28098 times:

Quoting capri (Reply 12):
It's strange that Boeing didn't comment on schedule change for AT, usually we are used to the other way around from AT, they never comment on anything even that famous hard landing at JFK in 2009, well anyway they are trying to sell 44% of its stake that no one will buy same as strangely their 4 A321 still didn't find a buyer since March through falko

It's Boeing's policy not to comment on customer deliveries.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7757 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 28105 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Please note that I have removed the Chinese aircraft from the “Next Up” list since they are being put in storage…
Quoting cosmofly (Reply 2):
If CAAC has issues about 787 certification, CAAC should just publish what they have concern with and let everybody make their judgement. If they are valid, I am sure there will be a lot of support to make the sky safer.

So CAAC/ CZ and HU are going to be our new "Airlines that shall not be named"   



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 28100 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
So CAAC/ CZ and HU are going to be our new "Airlines that shall not be named"

Seriously. Charleston must be planning a parking annex.

Has the been any chatter over why the CAAC has a problem with the 787? Are they having an issue with the investigation into the problems with the GenX?



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently online817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2476 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 28112 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
So CAAC/ CZ and HU are going to be our new "Airlines that shall not be named"   

Seriously....   



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 594 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 28083 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
So CAAC/ CZ and HU are going to be our new "Airlines that shall not be named"


More like "Aviation Administration that shall not be named." Unlike AI, which certainly contributed to its delivery delays, CZ and HU appear to be pawns in an Anglo-American/Sino chess match.

[Edited 2012-11-05 12:10:34]


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User currently offlinepetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 28091 times:
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Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 17):
Anglo-Sino chess match

Er, I think that should read Yank-Sino chess match as Anglo refers to England as in Anglo Saxon etc!  


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 28091 times:

I wonder if this Chinese issue has to due with the presidential campaign and Romney's threat to China...we will see if it goes away after the election, if Obama wins...

User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 594 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 28088 times:

Quoting petera380 (Reply 18):
Er, I think that should read Yank-Sino chess match as Anglo refers to England as in Anglo Saxon etc!

I thought the same, but looked it up. Apparently, Anglo can refer to "a white person who lives in the U.S. and is not Hispanic." With that said, I've edited the post to "Anglo-American" to differentiate from "Anglo Saxon" all the more to show that we are two nations divided by a common language.

[Edited 2012-11-05 12:13:16]


DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 594 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 28092 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 19):
I wonder if this Chinese issue has to due with the presidential campaign and Romney's threat to China

And/or, the high Japanese content in the 787? Japanese-Chinese relations are very frayed at the moment over disputed islands and rights to surrounding natural resources. Its my understanding that the drama is being played out on economic fronts, as well as, the diplomatic/military confrontations. The 787 may be one of those battlefields...

Quoting United787 (Reply 19):
if Obama wins...

You mean, "when" Obama wins, don't you?   

[Edited 2012-11-05 12:26:03]

[Edited 2012-11-05 12:38:41]


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User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 28102 times:

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 21):
You mean, "when" Obama wins, don't you?

If I say "when", I will jink the election and then he won't win and I will have to move to Canada...and Chicago is cold enough for me...  


User currently offlinepetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 28099 times:
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Quoting petera380 (Reply 18):
I wonder if this Chinese issue has to due with the presidential campaign and Romney's threat to China



From what I have read I believe that the CAAC wants the FAA/CAA to relax their rules to make it easier for the Chinese to get their own aircraft certified in the West. The CAAC standards appear to be lower then the standards used in the West.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1846 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 28088 times:
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Quoting petera380 (Reply 23):
From what I have read I believe that the CAAC wants the FAA/CAA to relax their rules to make it easier for the Chinese to get their own aircraft certified in the West. The CAAC standards appear to be lower then the standards used in the West.

If that is the case, the 787's for the Chinese airlines will be sitting in storage and on Boeing's books for a long time.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 28561 times:
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Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 21):
And/or, the high Japanese content in the 787?

The 777 has a fair bit of Japanese-sourced content.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 23):
From what I have read I believe that the CAAC wants the FAA/CAA to relax their rules to make it easier for the Chinese to get their own aircraft certified in the West. The CAAC standards appear to be lower then the standards used in the West.
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 24):
If that is the case, the 787's for the Chinese airlines will be sitting in storage and on Boeing's books for a long time.

Even if the FAA did loosen their standards, that wouldn't help with EASA certification. And since CZ has taken delivery of their first A380, they have no card to play with the EU until it comes time for CA's first A350 delivery.

[Edited 2012-11-05 14:55:12]

User currently offlinefleabyte From Brazil, joined Jan 2010, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 28569 times:

"From what I have read I believe that the CAAC wants the FAA/CAA to relax their rules to make it easier for the Chinese to get their own aircraft certified in the West. The CAAC standards appear to be lower then the standards used in the West."

=ABSURDITY

1. Can someone briefly explain at a high level what will be involved to refit these Chinese planes and sell them to another carrier?

2. Can someone explain what will be required to switch the future Chinese slots to the next non prima dona client in the lineup?

3. It seems like this must be hurting Hainan and China Southern business plans, and the cost of getting ready for the 787's wasted.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29096 times:

Other airlines will fly into China (i.e. United with service from LAX to Shanghai next year) While foreign airlines are flying the 787 (and other modern aircraft) into Chinese airspace, the local airlines are being shut out of acquiring the same equipment to compete with. Guess the Chinese have yet to learn something more about free market competition.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineual747-600 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29070 times:

I don't understand how the Chinese gov't can keep their domestic airlines from taking delivery of their 787's on certification issues and yet let ANA and JAL fly 787 to Chinese cities.

UAL747-600


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1846 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29080 times:
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Quoting fleabyte (Reply 26):
1. Can someone briefly explain at a high level what will be involved to refit these Chinese planes and sell them to another carrier?

2. Can someone explain what will be required to switch the future Chinese slots to the next non prima dona client in the lineup?

3. It seems like this must be hurting Hainan and China Southern business plans, and the cost of getting ready for the 787's wasted.

It's not as simple as refitting for another carrier and "reallocating" slots to other carriers. If Boeing were to take the step of taking those a/c and selling them to someone else and cancelling the production slots and orders, they will effectively shut themselves out of a massive market. China is the world's most populous country and experiencing more growth in air service demand than anywhere on earth.

It would be relatively simple to either move up everyone to take the Chinese slots or sell them to an airline. Refitting the aircraft will be more complicated because each order has specialty items attached that vary from carrier to carrier. It could take weeks or months to "refit" an aircraft for another carrier.


User currently offlinefleabyte From Brazil, joined Jan 2010, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29101 times:

Thanks for your reply Sonoma Flyer

but...

I would think that In reality, China must buy aircraft from Boeing whether they want to or not, Airbus can not produce enough aircraft at this point. I realize it is not easy and hence the question.

so the already built aircraft - I assume it would be to find a flexible buyer that would accept as many installed systems as possible such as the seats, the galleys, the engines, the options on the engines and avionics, then refit the other systems that the client could not accept? and negotiate with the Chinese carrier- refusing to accept delivery to reduce, delay or cancel their order.

aircraft in production lineup - I think I read in here that major sub systems are ordered years in advance and manufactured and delivered JIT or close to JIT? So just pushing the near term slots back by 10 or 20 positions seems a reasonable reaction to the current situation of Boeing continuing to pile up 200 million dollar paper weights at the far field runway?


User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 594 posts, RR: 3
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29125 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
The 777 has a fair bit of Japanese-sourced content.

And, it was certified for China decades before the Diaoyu or Senkaku islands tension escalated dramatically. There have been violent anti-Japanese protests across China in the recent months.



DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1576 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 29105 times:

How much money have the Chinese airlines paid Boeing already?

I expect it could be quite a lot.

Ruscoe


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1846 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 29111 times:
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Quoting fleabyte (Reply 30):
I would think that In reality, China must buy aircraft from Boeing whether they want to or not, Airbus can not produce enough aircraft at this point.

I just don't think Boeing will be willing to run that risk. They will grind their teeth at keeping a/c in storage but the aircraft are needed to fuel China's growth and as you stated, Airbus can't pick up the slack. Also, China is fighting the EU on the carbon tax issue which has further complicated wide body purchases for Chinese airlines. There is leverage on Boeing's side as well.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3626 posts, RR: 27
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 29063 times:
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I think the country that shall not be named discussion on delayed deliveries should be a separate thread. we burn through these fast enough as it is especially with the airline that shall note be named, the CEO that shall not be named, and now the country....

as far as these planes though, would the same governmental restrictions apply if the airlines were leasing them? Say they asked a leasing company to buy the planes for them.


User currently offlineetoile From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 29043 times:

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 20):
i've edited the post to "Anglo-American" to differentiate from "Anglo Saxon" all the more to show that we are two nations divided by a common language.

Why are you excluding 1/3 of the U.S. population?

[Edited 2012-11-05 19:01:44]

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 29039 times:

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 26):
1. Can someone briefly explain at a high level what will be involved to refit these Chinese planes and sell them to another carrier?

Remove the customer-specific interior (sidewalls, seats, carpet, galleys, lavs, IFE). Install new customer interior. Change out the software. Re-register the aircraft (actual registry, ICAO code, SELCAL, etc.). Potentially add/remove several hardware options.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 26):
2. Can someone explain what will be required to switch the future Chinese slots to the next non prima dona client in the lineup?

Very little. Customers have no say in what production slot they have (they only have control over their delivery time window). Slots are typically assigned about 6-12 months ahead (probably more for the 787 since it's so delayed) but they're moved around on a regular basis.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 26):
"From what I have read I believe that the CAAC wants the FAA/CAA to relax their rules to make it easier for the Chinese to get their own aircraft certified in the West. The CAAC standards appear to be lower then the standards used in the West."

=ABSURDITY

How so? This has happened before, no particular reason it can't be happening again.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 26):
3. It seems like this must be hurting Hainan and China Southern business plans, and the cost of getting ready for the 787's wasted.

Yes, but Hainan and China Southern don't control aircraft purchasing, the Chinese government does. If the government has decided, for whatever reason, that this is a good political move then Hainan and China Southern have no leverage to combat that.

Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 28):
I don't understand how the Chinese gov't can keep their domestic airlines from taking delivery of their 787's on certification issues and yet let ANA and JAL fly 787 to Chinese cities.

ANA and JAL 787's are certified by the JAA, not the Chinese government. ICAO treaties, almost without exception, grant reciprocal acceptance of other countries' certification. That's the same way that old Russian aircraft can fly in the US despite not having (and probably never having) FAA certification.

Tom.


User currently offlinefleabyte From Brazil, joined Jan 2010, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 28949 times:

Hi TDS Canuck

I did not realize the FAA had relaxed standards already in such a scenario? when was that and for what aircraft?


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 28881 times:

I hope we never trade safety for profits, the western world may be financially weak but we still have some morals left! This time I think the Chinese miscalculated with our resolve?!

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7381 posts, RR: 8
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 28878 times:

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 21):
And/or, the high Japanese content in the 787? Japanese-Chinese relations are very frayed at the moment over disputed islands and rights to surrounding natural resources.

Well, if that is the case either they will never operate 787's or they must make accomodations elsewhere, I'm certain they know that Boeing will not chnage OEM's and set up an entirely new production system for a/c destined for China

Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 28):
I don't understand how the Chinese gov't can keep their domestic airlines from taking delivery of their 787's on certification issues and yet let ANA and JAL fly 787 to Chinese cities.

It is every governments right to set the standards for its people, domestic is just that, domestic.
Now if China cancels it bi-lateral with Japan to stop the 787 operating into China for the benefit of the Japanese people, one can expect them to do the same with any other country who attempt to fly the 787 into China, would be very benevolent of them looking out for the world like that. 


User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3397 posts, RR: 9
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 28904 times:

I'm very puzzled that the Chinese seem to be picking fights with both A & B at the moment (remember that they keep trying to influence EU rules by dangling the "large A330" order that could be placed. Where are they going to get wide bodies from if they fall out with both suppliers?

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7381 posts, RR: 8
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 28872 times:

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 40):
Where are they going to get wide bodies from if they fall out with both suppliers?

Will never happen, the politicians in the USA and the EU want / need Chinese money, so accomodations will be made elsewhere.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 40):
I'm very puzzled that the Chinese seem to be picking fights with both A & B

It's called leveraging ones position, in this case, they are a customer. Until a business house tells a customer to take his money elsewhere, these things will continue. Boeing previously turned down FR, but did cave to "others" and did a flying display for the first time in decades, fact that the customer did not take the a/c after supposed "damages" and made public its displeasure on the issue did make those of us who did not support the cave on the display a bit of "See I told you so", but we digress.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 28910 times:

I have a little update from various sources, regarding delivery of SP-LRA (Lot's first 787). As of now, it is scheduled for November 9, following by training flights.

Flyout to Warsaw will take place on 14th, arrival on the 15th, sometime between 10:30 and 11:30 local time. Apparently, it will be "intercepted" escorted to WAW by pair of PLAF F-16s with formation flypast over Okecie Airport, weather permitting.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 28898 times:
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Quoting fleabyte (Reply 37):
I did not realize the FAA had relaxed standards already in such a scenario?

It's not the FAA relaxing their standards. It's the FAA accepting at prima facia value the certification of another country's aviation certification agency. And it is not unique or specific to the FAA, but is established by treaty for most agencies.

If the CAAC is deliberately holding up certification of the 787, Boeing might very well have legal grounds to stand on, but they won't because of the backlash from the Chinese if they did so.

As such, they'll just park the planes in the corner until CAAC is ready to accept them.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 28850 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 42):
I have a little update from various sources, regarding delivery of SP-LRA (Lot's first 787). As of now, it is scheduled for November 9, following by training flights.

Flyout to Warsaw will take place on 14th, arrival on the 15th, sometime between 10:30 and 11:30 local time. Apparently, it will be "intercepted" escorted to WAW by pair of PLAF F-16s with formation flypast over Okecie Airport, weather permitting.

Anything on delivery of SP-LRB?



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 28846 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 44):
Anything on delivery of SP-LRB?

Not yet, unfortunately.

The only information I have is that SP-LRB and -LRC are to be delivered sometime in January, 2013. No exact dates have been mentioned anywhere yet.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 28787 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 3):

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 2):
If CAAC has issues about 787 certification, CAAC should just publish what they have concern with and let everybody make their judgement. If they are valid, I am sure there will be a lot of support to make the sky safer.

That's not how the Chinese roll.

" “Some people say the CAAC is being tougher with Comac than the FAA would have been,” says that official. That should not be a surprise. The Chinese authority, renowned for its conservative approach to safety, is also unusually demanding in the standards it imposes on airframe maintenance, while its requirements for the physical condition of civil pilots are sometimes half jokingly compared with the national space program’s demands on astronauts. "

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_10_26_2012_p0-511368.xml

Article says CAAC is tough even with Chinese ARJ certification.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 28780 times:

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 17):
More like "Aviation Administration that shall not be named." Unlike AI, which certainly contributed to its delivery delays, CZ and HU appear to be pawns in an Anglo-American/Sino chess match.

In the case of Air India's delivery delays, AI is also a pawn in a chess match. It's just that the chess match is internal - between the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Civil Aviation...

Thanks to this chess match, MoF has blocked AI's access to the bridge financing they had lined up, so AI has restarted the tender process a few weeks ago.

Until this new tendering process is complete (or Ministry of Finance shuts up), AI's deliveries are all on hold.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 28796 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 47):

In the case of Air India's delivery delays, AI is also a pawn in a chess match. It's just that the chess match is internal - between the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Civil Aviation...

Thanks to this chess match, MoF has blocked AI's access to the bridge financing they had lined up, so AI has restarted the tender process a few weeks ago.

Until this new tendering process is complete (or Ministry of Finance shuts up), AI's deliveries are all on hold.

That's just great.   

Any fears in the Western World of India being an economic power house are put to rest by the actions of hte Indian Govt.

Guess there's always Jet Airways.

[Edited 2012-11-06 14:23:48]

[Edited 2012-11-06 15:36:18]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 594 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 28746 times:

Quoting etoile (Reply 35):
Why are you excluding 1/3 of the U.S. population?

You're right, I should have just said Americans! The melting pot of the world. I'm sure "Sino" offended someone, somewhere, too....

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 47):
In the case of Air India's delivery delays, AI is also a pawn in a chess match

Stepping back a bit, would the Indian government be so involved at this juncture but for AI needing a bailout due unprofitable operations/mismanagement? Its hard to imagine AI as a pawn if their actions gave rise to increased oversight. My apologies upfront for not having a complete understanding of the dynamics at play here. Your perspective adds a lot to this thread.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 48):
Guess there's always Jet Airways.

The only profitable Indian airline, correct? When are they expected to take delivery of their first 787?



DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 28793 times:

ANA, JAL, UA,ET, QR and LOT will take some frames before years end, maybe they even get their frames a bit faster when others are putting up a show. Bad luck to have so many customers with problems.

User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 28780 times:

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 49):
Stepping back a bit, would the Indian government be so involved at this juncture but for AI needing a bailout due unprofitable operations/mismanagement? Its hard to imagine AI as a pawn if their actions gave rise to increased oversight. My apologies upfront for not having a complete understanding of the dynamics at play here. Your perspective adds a lot to this thread.

Air India is most certainly a pawn. Management has no control over the airline - the Ministry micromanages the airline. Why? So that they can embezzle hundreds of millions of dollars out of the airline... Ministries like Civil Aviation and Railways are known as "Cash Ministries" - they are given to partners of the leading coalition for a few years at a time to fund their campaigns and create a vote bank (labor usually).

You can learn more in detail about corruption in India as it pertains to the Civil Aviation (and Air India in particular) in this audit:
Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 4
Chapter 5
Chapter 6
Chapter 7

I won't go into the private carriers now, but I will tell you that they have their own warts as well. If you have more questions, feel free to PM, I don't want to take us too far off topic  
Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 49):
The only profitable Indian airline, correct? When are they expected to take delivery of their first 787?

9W is not anywhere near long term profitability. They have an occasional profitable quarter or 2, but overall, it's a money-losing venture. It's an airline after all  

6E is India's most profitable carrier, although those strong balance sheets are benefiting from repeated sale-leasebacks.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 29019 times:

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 37):
I did not realize the FAA had relaxed standards already in such a scenario? when was that and for what aircraft?

I didn't mean that the FAA had relaxed standards necessarily, just that different regulators have disagreed with each other and butted heads in the past, sometimes within or without larger political machinations, as part of aircraft certification. The flammability reduction rule comes to mind (that was primarily FAA vs. EASA).

Quoting sweair (Reply 38):
I hope we never trade safety for profits, the western world may be financially weak but we still have some morals left!

Too late. Take a look at how the Eclipse got certified.

Tom.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 28932 times:

Qatar has taken delivery of A7-BCA (LN57 / ZA460) and A7-BCL (LN64 / ZA463) yesterday.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 28904 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 53):
Qatar has taken delivery of A7-BCA (LN57 / ZA460) and A7-BCL (LN64 / ZA463) yesterday.

Is there anywhere that we could get official confirmation of this? We have been fooled before, jumping the gun. But seeing how Qr whined about not getting its frames fast enough, I am sure there is some good will from U-turns side, more love than from either India or China anyway. Qatar has no cash worries I bet, they just have high standards, not a speck of dust would be ok before delivery. This would make it 3 frames and 2 more are on the flight line being prepared. With a bit of luck Al could have 5 frames at years end.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 28890 times:

It's confirmed by Uresh and a flight plan to VCV has been filled.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3424 posts, RR: 3
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 28899 times:

How long is the IFE installation at VCV for the Qatar aircrafts expected to take?

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 28939 times:

It was reported as "within 30 days". The first Qatar frame (A7-BCB, ferry flight to VCV on October 8) should be finished by now.

/edit

Wait, I assume the people in VCV don't work on weekends so it can take another 10 days.

[Edited 2012-11-07 03:44:15]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 28846 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 53):
Qatar has taken delivery of A7-BCA (LN57 / ZA460) and A7-BCL (LN64 / ZA463) yesterday.

Well that is great news! I had wondered if we might see a double delivery from them...

I think it is safe to move QR to the "normal" airline list for my next update...

BTW, a minor milestone but the 788 has now passed the 748 in deliveries... 35 788 vs. 34 748


User currently offlinepetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 28857 times:
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Quoting United787 (Reply 58):
35 788 vs. 34 748

I believe it's 34 788 vs 32 748.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 28860 times:
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Quoting petera380 (Reply 59):
I believe it's 34 788...

It's 35: 3 in 2011 and 32 (to date) in 2012.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 28850 times:

34 is correct, only 1 QR frame delivered.

User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 62, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 28871 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 61):
34 is correct, only 1 QR frame delivered.

Only one flew away today, both delivered.


User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 450 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 28883 times:

With all the fuss going on with 787 since it started, i think the 8 turned out to be a rebel of all Boeing 7x7 series

User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 28892 times:

For those of you who are interested in reading the tender AI has put out for the fresh bridge loan financing, you can read it here: http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/RFP-Bridge%202012.pdf

Note #8 - the earlier financing had been negotiated with a GoI guarantee, which Ministry of Financing is now refusing to honor.

Also, note #3 - Boeing/AI's expected 2 Dreamliners to be delivered this month as of Oct 30. I would be very surprised if AI and Boeing can keep to this schedule.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 594 posts, RR: 3
Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 28839 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 64):
Note #8 - the earlier financing had been negotiated with a GoI guarantee, which Ministry of Financing is now refusing to honor.

The RFP's for the prior financings had the same no GoI guarantee language as in the link you provided (I reviewed them). Did the final agreements for the "winning" financing provider some how end up with such a guarantee? If so, its highly likely that any response to this new RFP will be conditioned upon ranking equally to the prior deals in all material respects; including a GoI guarantee. That is, unless AI sweetens the collateral over and above the prior deals to mitigate the lack of a guarantee.



DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 28882 times:

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 65):
The RFP's for the prior financings had the same no GoI guarantee language as in the link you provided (I reviewed them). Did the final agreements for the "winning" financing provider some how end up with such a guarantee? If so, its highly likely that any response to this new RFP will be conditioned upon ranking equally to the prior deals in all material respects; including a GoI guarantee. That is, unless AI sweetens the collateral over and above the prior deals to mitigate the lack of a guarantee.

Huh, I just went back and looked the earlier RFPs over, and sure enough, you're right. They all state that there is no GoI guarantee for bridge loans.

Unfortunately, my go-to person at AI finance is traveling tonight, but I will find out and get back to you tomorrow...



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 67, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 28848 times:

Quoting petera380 (Reply 59):
I believe it's 34 788 vs 32 748.

According to this thread, 34 748s have been delivered in total:

Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production #10 (by wilco737 Oct 4 2012 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 68, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 28758 times:

LN83 / ZA512 (ANA) finished final assembly.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/8168537272/in/photostream/



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 69, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 28741 times:

Some updates:

- The next Qatar frame (A7-BCK, LN62, ZA462) is now in paint on the flightline
- The 5th Qatar frame for this year (LN82, ZA464) is inside the paint shop
- A 787 delivery ceremony for LOT is scheduled for November 12
- The second 787 for LOT (SP-LRB, LN78, ZA271) is now back on the flightline (she was at the EMC for some time)



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 28707 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 42):
I have a little update from various sources, regarding delivery of SP-LRA (Lot's first 787). As of now, it is scheduled for November 9, following by training flights.

Is LO's first plane still scheduled for contractual delivery today?


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 71, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 28725 times:

Looks like UAL ZA286 is out on its C-1 (5 out of the last 7 airplanes have only flown a B-1 then on to customer       ) and ETH ZA261 is on its 3rd and final (hopefully) customer flight.


http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE286

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE261


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 72, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 28651 times:

It's my understanding that Boeing made contractual delivery to LOT today.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 73, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 28673 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 72):
It's my understanding that Boeing made contractual delivery to LOT today.

If that's the case this is the second 787 to have only one Boeing flight and one customer flight. This program is maturing rapidly.      

Quote from another blog:

" This is not the 777 or 737 program so I don't see how you can compare the those programs with the 787.

October 26, 2012 8:36 AM"

I guess we can start comparing.


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 28653 times:

Both KarelXWB and 7BOEING7 said 2 QR frames were delivered this week so I am going with it...

As always, thank you to All Things 787 (NYC777) and others for the information that is summarized here. For more specific information on the aircraft in production, I recommend going to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

DELIVERED TO DATE: 36 Aircraft to 8 Airlines

DELIVERIES PRIOR TO NOVEMBER
NH-16; JL-6; AI-3; ET-3; LA-2; UA–2; QR-1

NOVEMBER DELIVERIES TO DATE
L/N 64 - A7-BCL – 11/06/2012- QR #2
L/N 57 - A7-BCA – 11/06/2012 - QR #3
L/N 61 - SP-LRA - 11/09/2012 - LO #1

NEXT IN LINE FOR DELIVERY Tentative - Subject to Change
L/N 44 - ET-AOP - 11/xx/2012 - ET #4
L/N 50 - N20902 - 11/xx/2012 - UA #3
L/N 80 - CC-BBC - 11/xx/2012 - LA #3 Awaiting first flight
L/N 55 - N26905 - TBD - UA #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 62 - A7-BCC - TBD - QR #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 78 - SP-LRB - TBD - LO #2 Awaiting first flight
L/N 82 - A7-BC? - TBD - QR #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 83 - JA81?A - TBD - NH #17 Awaiting first flight

In addition, there are three airlines that aren’t accepting deliveries of completed aircraft due to financing or political/certification issues: 4 for AI; 3? for CZ; & 2 for HU.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 28603 times:

Qr could have 5 frames by the end of 2012, do you guys think they will accept all this year, I think they only accepted 1 in November so far, 1 more is ready for delivery, 2 more await first flight. Coming years end a few more airlines would have 4 or 5 frames starting 2013.

Hainan has a bad time now, A380s deferred and its 787s stored. I guess they feel a bit squashed between its needs and the politicians in charge? The cant be blamed for the 787 holdup, that would be a political problem CAAC is the governments agency.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13263 posts, RR: 100
Reply 76, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 28614 times:
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It looks like we are on course for over a hundred 787 deliveries in 2013. Finally building 'economy of scale.' I've been posting on various a.net threats that once there is are enough 787s+A350s in the fleet, we will see a big shift in routes offered (as well as economic shift on other aircraft types). That is a few years away, but we are on the path.   

Note: I'm also an A380 fan. If one plots a dot on a chart with the x-axis being the cost per flight and the y-axis the CASM, the 787, A350, and A380 all hold excellent positions. (One wants to be towards the lower left corner of the chart.) This will continue to make life interesting on the 744, A346/A345, A343, 763ER, and eventually A332 (but much later).

So far of the airlines flying the 788 today, I'm most interested to see what LA does with the type. I think they will be the first (but not the only) airline to show how the 787 will 'change the game.' But there is a chance UA, NH, or JL will also (but I just haven't seen it yet); perhaps I missed an interesting new route announcement? What I know is LA and the 787 are certain to change how people fly between South America and Europe and probably North America too.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 48):
Any fears in the Western World of India being an economic power house are put to rest by the actions of hte Indian Govt.

I'm not sure holding up 787 deliveries is really hurting AI. Not with readily available 77Ls. But the GoI is amusing in how they handicap the home industries. That needs to change for economic reasons, but is outside this forum (and very off topic). I'm sad not seeing 787s delivered, but with the 'Airline that shall not be named,' it is just another day. Its stopped being drama but rather expected.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 77, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 28771 times:

ZA460 is making another test flight today thus this aircraft has not been delivered to Qatar.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 28808 times:

Parts for the first Thomson 787 is being loaded into FAL now, production to start in a week? Nice to see a multitude of airlines getting their 787s now. Even if this frame will not deliver for a few months yet.

User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 79, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 28797 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 77):
ZA460 is making another test flight today thus this aircraft has not been delivered to Qatar

Looks like a C-2 coming up for QTR (not really unexpected) and ETH ZA261 is out for its (gulp!) C-4 -- some kids just never want to leave home.



http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE460

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE261


User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2559 posts, RR: 7
Reply 80, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 28744 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 77):
ZA460 is making another test flight today thus this aircraft has not been delivered to Qatar.

Don't know which aircraft number it was, but a QR 787 was at BFI today - saw it when I was headed northbound on I-5 around 09:00 and was still there when I headed back south around 12:30. Have to say that is one beautiful bird. Best looking 787 I've seen so far


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 28739 times:

The one at BFI is ZA462 fresh from VCV.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineafriwing From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 28671 times:

It's being tweeted that QR officials are now heading to Seattle for the delivery ceremony of A7-BCB (QR's 1st delivery)

This is the actual delivery, as opposed to the media-propaganda-a-la-QR-style delivery last month   

So ceremony is expected tomorrow or after.
Congrats QR, finally



afriwing
User currently offlinedynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 877 posts, RR: 9
Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28674 times:

Quoting afriwing (Reply 82):
This is the actual delivery, as opposed to the media-propaganda-a-la-QR-style delivery last month

I know you're stirring, but I'll bite. No this is not. The actual delivery is when they transfer ownership, and that is what happened back then. What QR chooses to do with it after that is their own business.


User currently offlinejustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1062 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 28610 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 76):
What I know is LA and the 787 are certain to change how people fly between South America and Europe and probably North America too.

So is Chile going to be a mini-Dubai?


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 85, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 28614 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 76):
What I know is LA and the 787 are certain to change how people fly between South America and Europe and probably North America too.

Indeed, LA is extremely happy with the performance of the 787s and will deploy them on routes to LAX very soon. However, LA is looking at opening two new long-haul routes to Europe next year with the 787s.

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 84):


Quoting lightsaber (Reply 76):
What I know is LA and the 787 are certain to change how people fly between South America and Europe and probably North America too.

So is Chile going to be a mini-Dubai?

FYI, LAN has passenger affiliates in five different South American countries and also plans to open new long-haul routes via Brazil in cooperation with its sister carrier TAM.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 28587 times:

Another LAN '87 is on the Flightline at Everett and should have its first flight soon.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 87, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 28590 times:
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Quoting NYC777 (Reply 86):
Another LAN '87 is on the Flightline at Everett and should have its first flight soon.

Great. LAN expects to receive CC-BBC by the end of November which will accelerate the launch of 787 services to LAX.


User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 88, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 28596 times:
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Boeing has announced that they rolled out the first 787 at the 5/mo production rate last week, and stated that they'll be increasing production to 10/mo by the end of 2013.


http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2492


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 89, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 28569 times:

Quoting rwessel (Reply 88):
Boeing has announced that they rolled out the first 787 at the 5/mo production rate last week, and stated that they'll be increasing production to 10/mo by the end of 2013.


http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.ph...=2492

The initial goal was 10 a month -- 7 at Everett without the surge line and 3 in S Carolina. So since I imagine the surge line will still be in operation turning out 1, 2, 3 ? a month it appears they will not make their goal of 7 a month down the main line.    


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 90, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 28567 times:
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Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 89):
The initial goal was 10 a month -- 7 at Everett without the surge line and 3 in S Carolina.

The original goal was 10 a month just at PAE. And Boeing have hinted that they could take (combined) production across both PAE and CHS beyond 10 per month.

[Edited 2012-11-12 10:06:36]

User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 91, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 28507 times:
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Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 89):
The initial goal was 10 a month -- 7 at Everett without the surge line and 3 in S Carolina. So since I imagine the surge line will still be in operation turning out 1, 2, 3 ? a month it appears they will not make their goal of 7 a month down the main line.

I can't read anything into Boeing statement that says they're expecting no further increases in production rate beyond 2013, or that 10/mo is their final goal. They're not saying they will increase it further either, of course. The announcement simply says nothing about what might follow "late 2013".


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 92, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 28532 times:

LN84 / ZA183 (JAL) at position 4 inside the 40-26 building.



Here is LN83 at position 2 inside the 40-24 building, before moving to position 4 inside 40-26:



LN87 / ZA273 (LOT) and LN89 / ZA184 (JAL) at position 2 and 1 inside the 40-24 building (surge line).



Quite impressive. The surge line started with 1 frame, now there are 2 and soon there will be 3 frames at positions 1, 2 and 3 each. Together with the 4 frames inside the 40-26 building Boeing will be assembling 7 frames at once in Everett.

[Edited 2012-11-12 12:48:31]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3626 posts, RR: 27
Reply 93, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 28516 times:
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Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 89):
it appears they will not make their goal of 7 a month down the main line.
Quoting rwessel (Reply 91):
I can't read anything into Boeing statement that says they're expecting no further increases in production rate beyond 2013, or that 10/mo is their final goal. T

I believe that Boeing is keeping it's mouth shut and reviewing the process of these first accelerations before sticking their neck out and making announcements before all the pieces/subs are in place.


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 94, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 28483 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 90):
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 89):The initial goal was 10 a month -- 7 at Everett without the surge line and 3 in S Carolina.
The original goal was 10 a month just at PAE. And Boeing have hinted that they could take (combined) production across both PAE and CHS beyond 10 per month.

I agree the initial goal was 10 at PAE but that went away in mid 2010 and since then it has been 7 and 3 without the surge line by the end of 2013. Now they're saying 10 from all sources by the end of 2013 which means their single line 10 has dropped to 7 and now to something less than 7 depending on how many the surge line turns out a month.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 91):
I can't read anything into Boeing statement that says they're expecting no further increases in production rate beyond 2013, or that 10/mo is their final goal. They're not saying they will increase it further either, of course. The announcement simply says nothing about what might follow "late 2013".

I'm not saying they won't go higher, it all depends on their suppliers. I'm just sayng that it's taking 3 lines now to produce what they initally expected to produce by late 2013 from 1 or 2 lines, which is an extra added expense.

Quoting kanban (Reply 93):
I believe that Boeing is keeping it's mouth shut and reviewing the process of these first accelerations before sticking their neck out and making announcements before all the pieces/subs are in place.

Not from what I've read over the last several years.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3626 posts, RR: 27
Reply 95, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 28458 times:
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Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 94):
Not from what I've read over the last several years.

and look at what it cost them... maybe they're learning...


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13263 posts, RR: 100
Reply 96, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 28495 times:
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Quoting SCL767 (Reply 85):
Indeed, LA is extremely happy with the performance of the 787s and will deploy them on routes to LAX very soon. However, LA is looking at opening two new long-haul routes to Europe next year with the 787s.

Exactly. While initially it will be new routes to Europe that are exciting, I also see potential to OZ (long term, not for 3 to 5 years at a minimum) as well as new destinations in North America.

What I also wonder is the opportunities in Africa... However, I do not know enough about the business ties to start suggesting routes.

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 84):
So is Chile going to be a mini-Dubai?

Not just Chile. I should have said LATAM.    But it will open up hubbing for them in Chile that otherwise either wouldn't happen or would happen elsewhere. I also expect the TAM division to also see new long haul. With the 787? Eventually. Just when... . I'll have to admit I was thinking more the Chile LAN and TAM for the 787's near term prospects. While I hope the other LAN's show high potential (Argentina, Equador, and Colombia), I just do not see them having the need for the 787 yet.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 88):

Boeing has announced that they rolled out the first 787 at the 5/mo production rate last week, and stated that they'll be increasing production to 10/mo by the end of 2013.

Excellent. Now there was noise of deliveries of 10/mo starting soon. Have the various political 'issues' derailed that hope?  
Quoting Stitch (Reply 90):
The original goal was 10 a month just at PAE.

   Without a surge line too... But alas, production needs to smooth out before that happens.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 94):
I'm just sayng that it's taking 3 lines now to produce what they initally expected to produce by late 2013 from 1 or 2 lines, which is an extra added expense.

   They are producing from 3 lines what they should have been able to do from 1. Cest la vie. How much "traveling work" is coming with the components? I suspect it is still high, but a fraction of the initial traveling work.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 97, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 28476 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 96):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 85):
Indeed, LA is extremely happy with the performance of the 787s and will deploy them on routes to LAX very soon. However, LA is looking at opening two new long-haul routes to Europe next year with the 787s.

Exactly. While initially it will be new routes to Europe that are exciting, I also see potential to OZ (long term, not for 3 to 5 years at a minimum) as well as new destinations in North America.

LAN also sees major potential for growth on long-haul routes via Brazil. 2014 will be an interesting year for LATAM as LAN will receive 7 787s during that year alone. By 2015, LAN plans to deploy the B-787-9s to AKL/SYD. By the end of 2015, LAN will have at least 16 787s in the fleet.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 96):
While I hope the other LAN's show high potential (Argentina, Equador, and Colombia), I just do not see them having the need for the 787 yet.

LAN Perú, LAN Colombia and LAN Ecuador will eventually operate the 787s as well.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 98, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 28441 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 68):
LN83 / ZA512 (ANA) finished final assembly.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/8...ream/

LN83 is already in paint, 4 days after FAL roll out. Became JA817A for ANA: http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvolt/8180920763/

It looks like the remaining jobs after final assembly are still decreasing.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 99, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 28408 times:

Small update on LO 787 deliveries, per airline CEO comments:

SP-LRA - delivered 09.11.2012
SP-LRB - due "early" January 2013
SP-LRC - due "late" January 2013
SP-LRD - due "early" February 2013
SP-LRE - due "early" March 2013.

Source - in Polish



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 100, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 28405 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 69):
- A 787 delivery ceremony for LOT is scheduled for November 12
Quoting afriwing (Reply 82):
It's being tweeted that QR officials are now heading to Seattle for the delivery ceremony of A7-BCB (QR's 1st delivery)

According to Boeing, the QR 787 delivery took place yesterday, 11/12/2012. No mention of the other 1 or 2 contractual deliveries...

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2493

What about LO, they were supposed to have their big delivery ceremony yesterday?

In other news, I just checked to see if UA had put their #2 (N26906) in service and saw that it has been doing IAH-SFO, IAH-EWR and IAH-ORD. But now it is showing that it is enroute to BFI. Is UA returning the plane, 30 day money back guarantee  http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26906


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 101, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 28367 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 98):
LN83 is already in paint, 4 days after FAL roll out. Became JA817A for ANA: http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvo...0763/

Now someone else says that JA817A is LN59.

@NYC777 do you know which line number JA817A is?



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 102, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 28502 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 100):
According to Boeing, the QR 787 delivery took place yesterday, 11/12/2012. No mention of the other 1 or 2 contractual deliveries...

This is the ceremonial delivery of the 11st '87 that was delivered contractually last month. QR has received two 787s, the third should be delivered next week.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 103, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 28484 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):
Now someone else says that JA817A is LN59.

@NYC777 do you know which line number JA817A is?
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):
Now someone else says that JA817A is LN59.

@NYC777 do you know which line number JA817A is?

I put a call into my source and I'm waiting to find out.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 104, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 28501 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):
What about LO, they were supposed to have their big delivery ceremony yesterday?

Apparently, the big feast will take place in Warsaw, hopefully... While Polish news outlets are reporting the delivery, industry services are awfully quiet on this topic.

The flypast over Okecie (WAW) is confirmed; 787 will be escorted by formation of four F-16s, before landing. If anybody is in Warsaw in the late morning, around 10:30CET, it's definitely worth stopping by Okecie.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 105, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 28488 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 102):
This is the ceremonial delivery of the 11st '87 that was delivered contractually last month. QR has received two 787s, the third should be delivered next week.

Oops, I meant ceremonial delivery... I will correct the QR delivery date for #3 on my next post...


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 106, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 28499 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 103):
I put a call into my source and I'm waiting to find out.

Great! Thanks.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 102):
This is the ceremonial delivery of the 11st '87 that was delivered contractually last month. QR has received two 787s, the third should be delivered next week.

Here is a picture of the ceremony:
http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...qatar-airways-787-delivery-flight/

Al Baker with scissors in his hand, that looks like a dangerous combination  

[Edited 2012-11-13 10:54:44]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 570 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 28501 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 94):

We won't know what the true output of each assembly line is until they increase above 10 frames a year. Just because they have decided to use three lines instead of one for the 10/month, I would not make the statement that the original line can not handle it. If they create another line, then we know that the current lines can't be expanded to meet demand. But if they continue expand the production rate with no new lines, then we know Boeing had built a safety margin into their production plan by splitting up production onto different lines instead of trying to make them all on one.

By splitting up production now, they trained more employees up front. However, when it comes time to increase production, they will have already had practical experience and should be able to transition to the higher rates easier and quicker than if they were hired later.



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 108, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 28523 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 106):
Al baker with scissors in his hand, that looks like a dangerous combination



I would be more concerned with Ray Conner (or any Boeing or Airbus executive) holding a pair of scissors next to Al Baker after the crap he pulls...


User currently offlineual747-600 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 28526 times:

Does anyone know why UA N26906 is on the way to KBFI today?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26906

UAL747-600


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 110, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 28541 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):

Now someone else says that JA817A is LN59.

@NYC777 do you know which line number JA817A is?

LN 59 is in Stall 102 and painted.

LN 83 is in the paint hangar

LN 59 is JA817A.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 111, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 28534 times:

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 107):
We won't know what the true output of each assembly line is until they increase above 10 frames a year. Just because they have decided to use three lines instead of one for the 10/month, I would not make the statement that the original line can not handle it. If they create another line, then we know that the current lines can't be expanded to meet demand. But if they continue expand the production rate with no new lines, then we know Boeing had built a safety margin into their production plan by splitting up production onto different lines instead of trying to make them all on one.

By splitting up production now, they trained more employees up front. However, when it comes time to increase production, they will have already had practical experience and should be able to transition to the higher rates easier and quicker than if they were hired later.

The main 787 assembly line inside the 40-26 building is certainly able of producing at least 7 frames a month. If the 777 line can do it, so can the 787 line. So what is the problem with the main assembly line? Are there not enough workers? No, because Boeing would hire more workers if that is the case.

I think the problem is the tooling. I think workers have to do a lot of the work by hand, and there is still a lot of traveling work. Doing things by hand costs more time, and at this time you can only increase production by adding extra space. And that is what Boeing did with the 40-24 building: adding a new assembly line.

Boeing will decrease the traveling work and they can shut down the surge line once the main line is producing - let's say - 7 frames a month. Boeing could also keep the surge line to ramp the production beyond 10 frames a month but I'm not sure if that will ever happen.

[Edited 2012-11-13 11:21:25]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 112, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 28542 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 110):
LN 59 is in Stall 102 and painted.

LN 83 is in the paint hangar

LN 59 is JA817A.

Cool, thanks for the quick update.

Quoting United787 (Reply 108):
I would be more concerned with Ray Conner (or any Boeing or Airbus executive) holding a pair of scissors next to Al Baker after the crap he pulls...

:D

Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 109):
Does anyone know why UA N26906 is on the way to KBFI today?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26906

Test flight? Crew training? Some kind of ceremony at Boeing Field? It's not heading to PAE so I don't think something is wrong with the plane.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 113, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 28562 times:

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 107):
We won't know what the true output of each assembly line is until they increase above 10 frames a year. Just because they have decided to use three lines instead of one for the 10/month, I would not make the statement that the original line can not handle it.

Never said the original line can't handle it, just said they won't be producing as many on the main line at PAE as they said they would by the end of 2013. I fully expect them to eventually get to 7 or even 10 a month on that line--they're over 8 a month on the 777.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 107):
But if they continue expand the production rate with no new lines, then we know Boeing had built a safety margin into their production plan by splitting up production onto different lines instead of trying to make them all on one.

Each new line is more investment $$$$ pushing the breakeven point farther out. It may get more planes out the door each month but they cost more.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 107):
By splitting up production now, they trained more employees up front. However, when it comes time to increase production, they will have already had practical experience and should be able to transition to the higher rates easier and quicker than if they were hired later.

The object is not to train more employees to increase the rate but to use the ones they have more efficiently.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 28555 times:

The manager that had to leave told Charleston they would make 7 frames a month in the future, I can see 7+7 being the long term plan for Boeing. They built Charleston with expansion in mind.

Seeing how few new orders the 787 program has got the last few years maybe there is no need to go above 120 frames /year? At the end of 2012 they have produced closer to 100 frames so far in the program, with some 800 more to get produced.

I wonder when the backlog will start to grow again?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 115, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 28571 times:

Quote:
I wonder when the backlog will start to grow again?

Never? Boeing will be building 787 frames faster they are selling them. In the end, the backlog should be something around the current 777 backlog, a little bit bigger maybe. And a production rate of 10 frames a month should be fine for a backlog of 300-350 frames.

Quote:
I can see 7+7 being the long term plan for Boeing.

Building 168 frames a year is probably good to shrink the current backlog, but they will have to decrease it again later (unless Boeing could sell 168 frames a year but I don't see that happen). Increasing production is tricky business.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 116, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 28571 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 111):
I think the problem is the tooling. I think workers have to do a lot of the work by hand, and there is still a lot of traveling work.

Travel work on currently-produced frames is said to be close to "norm" (you'll never have zero travel work) and we have seen some newer frames moving almost directly from the line to the paint hangar, implying they have little travel work.

I do not believe the suppliers are all able to deliver 10 shipsets per month so that's clearly slowing the production.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 117, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 28567 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 116):
I do not believe the suppliers are all able to deliver 10 shipsets per month so that's clearly slowing the production.

Well, the suppliers are able to deliver 4 frames to Everett and yet Boeing need an extra assembly line? Why not producing those 4 frames on the main assembly line?



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 118, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 28613 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 117):
Well, the suppliers are able to deliver 4 frames to Everett and yet Boeing need an extra assembly line? Why not producing those 4 frames on the main assembly line?

The main line is producing four 787s at a time.   

The surge line can't complete a 787 as it only has three positions, so the fourth position on the main line has to interleave frames from the main line and the surge line.

And CHS was built due to the need to protect themselves against the IAM.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 119, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 28599 times:

Quote:
The main line is producing four 787s at a time.

But not a month. In theory, the main line should be able to produce at least 7 frames a month. It was at 3.5 frames a month and Boeing activated the surge line to increase that number to 4 frames a month. So my question is, why can't the main line produce 4 frames a month on itself?

[Edited 2012-11-13 12:40:29]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 120, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 28544 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 119):
But not a month. In theory, the main line should be able to produce at least 7 frames a month. It was at 3.5 frames a month and Boeing activated the surge line to increase that number to 4 frames a month. So my question is, why can't the main line produce 4 frames a month on itself?

Everybody seems to be mixing up two different issues. There is line capacity (how much a line can produce in theory) and line rate (how much it's producing right now). Boeing has been ramping the production rate for a couple of years and they'll keep ramping. The fact that the main line is currently producing whatever it's doing doesn't mean it can't do 7 per month. However, ramping production rates on aircraft final assembly lines has to be done VERY carefully. Boeing halted production completely on all lines for several months back in the late 90's by trying to ramp too fast and they never ever ever want to have to do that again.

Likewise, *given* that they've got two lines, they should load balance the lines (weighted by each line's capacity) so it's better to have both lines running at partial rate. They want each line (surge, main, and CHS) ramping up together; that is far more effective than running one line from zero to full capacity, then starting the second, etc.

Tom.


User currently offlineCapt747ret From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 33 posts, RR: 1
Reply 121, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 28484 times:

I read this blog all the time but rarely post so I’ll catch up with this long series of my personal thoughts.

B has a large number of extremely smart people who really know the market and where it’s going. I would never sell them short. Anyone second guessing them will be second guessing themselves.

B is very deliberate about what they do. Some would say that they were too late with the MAX but time will tell and I think I would not bet against B on the MAX or any program. At the end of the day I think that B will prove themselves again.

The two 78 lines and the surge line I believe were created for more than what has been discussed. We only have the -8 and kind of soon the -9. They are still spooling up to what they have publically touted as 10 per month.

B also has stated that they have looked at their supply chain and have put a number on the board that is north of 10. Why not? Primary Everett and SC were created to accommodate 7 each or more per month. That is where B’s efficiency is.

B has stated that the surge line is temporary – maybe. This last word speaks volumes. It gives B huge flexibility and keeps A guessing.

It takes years to increase production and starting now gives them the opportunity to be ready as the 300 enters sunset and the needed increase for the -10. These both will place additional pressure on the 10/month rate

SC was a clean sheet of paper with huge expansion potential. They have also secured additional large acreage around their facility. B is not in the agricultural business.

It seems that the 78 will place the 300 into sunset and fade away the 350-800. Also, the -900 is slipping as is the -1000. B’s trump card on those two and especially the -1000 is the 777-8x&9x. They will have a common pilot rating with an endorsement on the license with the 78. Why buy an A and a B when the asymmetric training and operating costs eat into profitability.

Yes A is doing a revamped 300 which will have a measure of success especially with those carriers that already have this model in their inventory. But in a larger since, A is just pissing against the wind.

What ultimately turns out to be the 350 product line will be facing a better and more efficient B counterpart. A may deliver earlier but the long haul of development and production will favor the 78 & 777x lines.

Some have said that B has been reacting to A’s program. I think that B has been letting A get their program set in stone so as to deliver a far superior product. With the world the way it’s become and the cost of fuel high with a probable trending line only going up for the next few decades. B has done it right.

IMHO B has been looking at a 78 production rate north of 15 per month. What would you say would be the number of 787 orders in the first few months of 78-10 offers? There are now some 800 confirmed with a number yet to be posted like American Airlines. B has not posted their orders while negotiations were in progress with the Allied Pilots Association. Now with the new contract that has just happened, I believe that we will see these orders posted. I would like to read the details pertaining to the 78.

IMHO, the initial -10 orders would reach 3-400 with initial launch orders and then with a steady increase along with her sisters. We will be amazed to watch the order book pass 1500 and 2000. Again don’t sell B short. It takes years of planning to just say that you will go to higher numbers. B knows that the production must balance the orders.

No airline wants to be left out with older, less efficient and less pax desirable planes then your competition.

The AIM is trying to organize the SC workforce. If they do then I see the -10 being built on the surge line. B would build a couple of additional Dreamlifers of the -8F frame to accommodate the -9 and -10 sizes.

Given their “druthers” B would like to build the -10 in SC if nothing more than to save the transportation cost. B doesn’t have to make a commitment to the production location of the -10 for quite a while yet. This gives them time to observe the outcome of the next union election.


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3417 posts, RR: 4
Reply 122, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 28477 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 120):
Likewise, *given* that they've got two lines, they should load balance the lines (weighted by each line's capacity) so it's better to have both lines running at partial rate.

I expect to see the "surge" line stick around for a while even after they get to 7 frames a month on the primary line in Washington. Its just way too much risk reduction to have that space with the tooling setup incase a frame on the main line goes sideways in its build. So depending on where the trouble frame is in the line you either start building frames on the surge or you wheel the trouble frame over there clearing the way for non-trouble frames to keep flowing.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3626 posts, RR: 27
Reply 123, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 28500 times:
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Quoting Capt747ret (Reply 121):
It takes years to increase production

To put that in perspective, some components from supplier start to delivery for installation are over 2 1/5 years in the making.. especially if forgings of unique aircraft quality and spec metal are involved. Cargo - pax door buildups generally are in the 1 1/2 year range. Wings are another pacing item.

So a rate increase seen today started over 2 years ago...


User currently onlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3424 posts, RR: 3
Reply 124, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 28507 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 120):
However, ramping production rates on aircraft final assembly lines has to be done VERY carefully

Yes, but still the main bottleneck is not the final assembly lines but the subsuppliers output


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 125, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 28563 times:
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Quoting NYC777 (Reply 86):
Another LAN '87 is on the Flightline at Everett and should have its first flight soon.

Last night CC-BBC did a taxi test at KPAE: http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvolt/8183859393/in/photostream. Hopefully CC-BBC has its first flight later today.


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 126, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 28487 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 112):
Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 109):Does anyone know why UA N26906 is on the way to KBFI today?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26906
Test flight? Crew training? Some kind of ceremony at Boeing Field? It's not heading to PAE so I don't think something is wrong with the plane.

Actually if there is an "issue" after delivery it could be handled at BFI. They have people there qualified to do the work and available parking. That was UAL's last delivery which only had two flights on it. It doesn't appear to have left (FA) and I haven't heard about any big ceremony. ??????


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 127, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 28739 times:
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Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 109):
Does anyone know why UA N26906 is on the way to KBFI today?

It's a special Employee Appreciation flight. There is also a tour of the PAE factory, which is why the plane flew to Seattle.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 128, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 28692 times:

First flight of ZA538 (for LAN) is scheduled for today at noon PT:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 129, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 28696 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 120):
Everybody seems to be mixing up two different issues. There is line capacity (how much a line can produce in theory) and line rate (how much it's producing right now). Boeing has been ramping the production rate for a couple of years and they'll keep ramping. The fact that the main line is currently producing whatever it's doing doesn't mean it can't do 7 per month. However, ramping production rates on aircraft final assembly lines has to be done VERY carefully. Boeing halted production completely on all lines for several months back in the late 90's by trying to ramp too fast and they never ever ever want to have to do that again.

Likewise, *given* that they've got two lines, they should load balance the lines (weighted by each line's capacity) so it's better to have both lines running at partial rate. They want each line (surge, main, and CHS) ramping up together; that is far more effective than running one line from zero to full capacity, then starting the second, etc.

I was mixing things up indeed, thanks for the clarification.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 28689 times:

It has been a bit slow on B1s lately? Sure many of the frames were Chinese and now stored, but there are a few better customers on flight line? I get the feeling pre flight and flight testing is not up to speed just yet.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 131, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 28717 times:

Let's have a look:

- LN44 / LN50 / LN54 / LN57 and LN60 are ready for delivery but I have no idea why it's taking so long (except for Air India).
- LN55: should have been in the air by now?
- LN59, LN62 and LN72 are just outside, it's too soon for their B1 flight
- LN78: no rush as it is scheduled for a January delivery
- LN80: B1 flight today
- LN82 and LN83 inside the paint hangar so it's too soon for their B1 flight

No other frames are ready for a first flight.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 337 posts, RR: 3
Reply 132, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 28701 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 100):
In other news, I just checked to see if UA had put their #2 (N26906) in service and saw that it has been doing IAH-SFO, IAH-EWR and IAH-ORD.

I was on it doing EWR - IAH - EWR over the weekend. Had two wonderful flights, though both were delayed due to servicing issues.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 28682 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 131):

I guess being an observer one gets impatient on progress. There was some serious action at the end of October however.

Anyway it could be good to prepare frames in advance, gives a bit of slack in the future? 5 frames a month plus a backlog of reworked frames, the priority should be to shrink this backlog?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 134, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 28707 times:

Quote:
5 frames a month plus a backlog of reworked frames, the priority should be to shrink this backlog?

Boeing is working on it. 9 frames are undergoing change incorporation: 5 inside the EMC, 1 inside the 40-24 building and 3 outside the EMC. But the output is slowing down because almost all late builds have finished change incorporation and there is more work to do on the early builds.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 135, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 28707 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 130):
It has been a bit slow on B1s lately? Sure many of the frames were Chinese and now stored, but there are a few better customers on flight line? I get the feeling pre flight and flight testing is not up to speed just yet.

The paperwork for preflight and in flight checks was set prior to certification. The personnel know what to do and how to do it. Any major delays in those two areas are due to the airplane not being "ready to fly". When the flight or ground tests fail it takes time to fix the problem ie., a delay. In the flight regime some airplanes recently have needed only two flights prior to delivery--LOT ZA270 & UAL ZA290--while others have taken considerably more--ETH ZA261 has flown 8 times so far. The production flight test crew knows what they're doing, sometimes the airplane just doesn't "behave". In the factory the systems are all tested individually but until you roll it out the door and test the "whole" airplane on the ground and inflight you never know what you are going to get. Most issues are minor it just takes time to fix them. Some airplanes are just built better than others.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 136, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 28709 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 110):
LN 59 is JA817A.

@NYC777

Now LN59 is outside, do you know which frame has taken its place in Bay D?



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 137, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 28720 times:

Looks like BOE538 has an issue and is returning to PAE after only 20 minutes in the air.

[Edited 2012-11-14 13:15:33]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 138, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 28715 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 136):
Now LN59 is outside, do you know which frame has taken its place in Bay D?

Don't know yet.

[Edited 2012-11-14 13:15:03]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 28730 times:

Any airlines that have the "terrible teens" known yet? Will ANA take some more of the early ones?

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 140, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 28734 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 136):
do you know which frame has taken its place in Bay D?

LN 21 is in Bay D.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 141, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 28730 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 140):

LN 21 is in Bay D.

So Boeing moved LN21 from 40-24 to the EMC. Interesting.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 142, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 28753 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 141):
So Boeing moved LN21 from 40-24 to the EMC. Interesting.

Not really. It was in 40-24 for a long time undergoing change incorporation but I don't think it can complete change incorporation there so they had to trasfer it to EMC to finish it off. They also want to make sure the space is available for use by the surge line as needed. I don't really expect any other change incorporation activities to take place in 40-24.

[Edited 2012-11-14 14:04:40]

[Edited 2012-11-14 14:23:38]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinedynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 877 posts, RR: 9
Reply 143, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 28670 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 131):
- LN44 / LN50 / LN54 / LN57 and LN60 are ready for delivery

How do you define "ready for delivery"? Some of those are close and some aren't.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 131):
No other frames are ready for a first flight.

Some are closer than you think.


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 28633 times:

I know, i'm lazy

Can someone please tell be when the first skyteam airline will get the 787?
I mostly fly af klm but would use others if its on the 787

thanks again


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 28690 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 144):

I guess now with China Southerns frames stored until CAAC will sort the certification issue Aeromexico/LN96 could be first to get the 787, their first frame should load into the assembly line before the end of this year. Maybe for a Jan-Feb delivery? At least 4 weeks for FAL and then another 4 or 5 weeks until its ready to deliver. Probably earliest around end of January or more likely February.

Check the 787 blog, it lists all frames up to LN100, no dates however but I think new frames get loaded 1 time a week so parts should arrive next week and FAL start the week after that. ILFC should not be a problem with finances.


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 146, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 28643 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 145):
Check the 787 blog

Thanks

Can you provide a link for the blog?


User currently offlinepetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 28681 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The blog can be found at:

http://nyc787.blogspot.com/


User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 148, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 28670 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 145):
until CAAC will sort the certification issue

Is CAAC "sorting" the certification issue or is it on hold for political reasons? I think Boeing is storing the chinese frames with the expectation that they will be there for a good long time.

In a related question, how much distruption would it be for Boring to pull the subsequent frames out of the firing order under the cert issue is taken up?



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 149, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 28672 times:

Quoting starrion (Reply 148):
In a related question, how much distruption would it be for Boring to pull the subsequent frames out of the firing order under the cert issue is taken up?

It depends how far out the frames you want to pull out are. Firing orders typically aren't nailed down until about 6 months ahead so anything out beyond that is probably no big deal. Within that window it would depend if you can pull the variable components (interiors, BFE, etc.) forward and how much of the customer engineering is complete.

Tom.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 150, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 28597 times:

LN45 / ZA285 finally finished change incorporation. This is the first UA 787 frame.

[Edited 2012-11-16 00:35:19]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 151, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 28624 times:

As always, thank you to All Things 787 (NYC777) and others for the information that is summarized here. For more specific information on the aircraft in production, I recommend going to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

DELIVERED TO DATE: 35 Aircraft to 8 Airlines

DELIVERIES PRIOR TO NOVEMBER
NH-16; JL-6; AI-3; ET-3; LA-2; UA–2; QR-1

NOVEMBER DELIVERIES TO DATE
L/N 64 - A7-BCL – 11/06/2012- QR #2
L/N 61 - SP-LRA - 11/09/2012 - LO #1

NEXT IN LINE FOR DELIVERY Tentative - Subject to Change
L/N 57 - A7-BCA – 11/xx/2012 - QR #3
L/N 44 - ET-AOP - 11/xx/2012 - ET #4
L/N 50 - N20902 - 11/xx/2012 - UA #3
L/N 80 - CC-BBC - 12/xx/2012 - LA #3
L/N 55 - N26905 – 12/xx/2012 - UA #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 62 - A7-BCK - 12/xx/2012 - QR #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 59 - JA817A - 12/xx/2012 - NH #17 Awaiting first flight
L/N 83 - JA818A - 12/xx/2012 - NH #18 Awaiting first flight
L/N 45 - N26901 – 12/xx/2012 – UA #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 82 - A7-BC? – 12/xx/2012 - QR #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 78 - SP-LRB – 1/xx/2013 - LO #2 Awaiting first flight

In addition, there are three airlines that aren’t accepting deliveries of completed aircraft due to financing or political/certification issues: 4 for AI; 3 for CZ; & 2 for HU.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 152, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 28926 times:

Looks like ZA261 has been delivered today. It's supposed to leave from Everett tonight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ETH9201



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 153, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 28902 times:
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LAN's third 787 CC-BBC is scheduled for its B1 flight today:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 154, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 28910 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 152):
Looks like ZA261 has been delivered today. It's supposed to leave from Everett tonight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/E...H9201

About time, only 8 flights to get it ready to ship.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 153):
LAN's third 787 CC-BBC is scheduled for its B1 flight today:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538

Technically classified a B-2 but it will be doing the full B-1 profile.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 155, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 28893 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 154):
Technically classified a B-2 but it will be doing the full B-1 profile.

Technically it is a second flight not a B-2 flight as it never completed the B-1 test profile.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 156, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 28809 times:

Delivery of SP-LRB is apparently scheduled for the 5th of January, 2013.

Source, in Polish - interview with LO's operations management team member



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 157, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 28731 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 152):

Looks like ZA261 has been delivered today. It's supposed to leave from Everett tonight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/E...H9201
Quote:
About time, only 8 flights to get it ready to ship.

ZA261 is visible in a flightline video, taken on November 15. The one on flightaware must have been another frame?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nJEgBUsMjEk

[Edited 2012-11-18 02:31:06]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 158, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 28649 times:

Hainan Airlines expects 787 delivery to be delayed to 2Q2013.

http://centreforaviation.com/news/ha...ery-to-be-delayed-to-2q2013-188654



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 159, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 28590 times:

FTA: HNA Group chairman Chen Feng previously said the carrier may change its 787 order to the 747-8 aircraft.

Wow. Now that some change incorporation. Exactly how previously?

So if both carriers frames are going to be sitting there until March, it makes sense that Boeing is taping them up. If they have the intervening months to finish all the tasks, that should be a fair little fleet to fly out once the paperwork is finished.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently onlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1642 posts, RR: 1
Reply 160, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 28561 times:

Quoting starrion (Reply 159):
FTA: HNA Group chairman Chen Feng previously said the carrier may change its 787 order to the 747-8 aircraft.

Wow. Now that some change incorporation. Exactly how previously?

Well, they were said to be behind a MoU for 15 748i's at Le Bourget last year. They did order 10 A380s, which they now apparently want to cancel. So, perhaps 748i's instead of 787s and A350s instead of A380s?    I doubt Airbus will allow this just like that...   

Quoting starrion (Reply 159):
So if both carriers frames are going to be sitting there until March, it makes sense that Boeing is taping them up.

If it is indeed gonna be Q2, May-June will be more likely.

Too bad for those almost finished 787s, I´ve noticed Charleston has been allocated mostly AI, CZ and Hainan 787s, with the slower pace there this seems a smart move. Hope they have enough parking space there though...



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 570 posts, RR: 1
Reply 161, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 28515 times:

Quoting starrion (Reply 159):

Well that would be nice! 15 from their MOU and then a nice top off order to go along... That would be one 787 cancelation I would endorse!



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 162, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 28495 times:

Getting information that LN 60 will be delivered to Air India towards the end of next week at the latest.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently online817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2476 posts, RR: 2
Reply 163, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week ago) and read 28176 times:

Matt Cawby tweeted a while ago that ET-AOP cancelled their take off clearance for their delivery flight, anyone know why?


Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12133 posts, RR: 34
Reply 164, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week ago) and read 28117 times:

I have no idea but ET-AOP is in the air now.

http://nl.flightaware.com/live/fligh...1/history/20121121/0200Z/KPAE/HAAB



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1634 posts, RR: 8
Reply 165, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 27502 times:

As well as ETH ZA261 (44) looks like QTR ZA460 (57) is heading south later today, so add that to the delivery list.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QTR999

And two B-1's are trying to get airborne today UAL ZA289 (55) which didn't make it yesterday and QTR ZA462 (62).

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE289

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE462

The holiday rush is on.


User currently offlinecatdaddy63 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 166, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 27503 times:
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Two B1 flights scheduled for this afternoon. ZA462 for QR, and ZA289 for UA.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 167, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 27471 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The weather has been craptastic all week - winds and heavy rains - so hopefully PAE is above the B1 minimums so the birds can get up.

User currently offlineETinCaribe From Ethiopia, joined Dec 2009, 737 posts, RR: 0
Reply 168, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 27434 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 164):
I have no idea but ET-AOP is in the air now.

http://nl.flightaware.com/live/fligh.../HAAB

By chance, I saw it on FR24 on my phone. However, it shows a LGG (Liege) stopover which does not seem to be correct. Anyone knows why? There is a 777F (ET3715) that did LGG-ADD and is a few minutes ahead of ET-AOP on teh FR24 radar view...


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 169, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 27397 times:

How does ET find its 787s I read about AI being very displeased with it. But Indians must be a hard crowd to satisfy, the posters here anyway.

User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3626 posts, RR: 27
Reply 170, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 27357 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting sweair (Reply 169):
But Indians must be a hard crowd to satisfy, the posters here anyway.

don't take it out on the posters.. they're mostly reporting some nameless bureaucrat about unconfirmed gripes with little or no actual substance.