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Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again  
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4104 times:
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DL operates 7 daily 757 flights between JFK and LAX... As of March 2013, one of those flights will be upgraded to 767-300, and 2 months later (June2013) 3 more flights will be upgraded to 767... For a total of 4 767 flts and 3 757

The 767s will be back on the route for the first time since 2009

I wonder what's going on with JFK-SFO?

Delta Air Lines to Offer Full Flat-bed in BusinessElite on Transcontinental Flights

[Edited 2012-11-05 09:33:49 by SA7700]

96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 558 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4126 times:

Any DL 747s plying btwn East-West routes?


If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9701 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4128 times:

I guess this is because DL has so much slack in the 767 fleet and when they finish the interior refit, they'll have even more planes.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4125 times:

Gotta compete against AA and UA.
Both will have new lie-flat premium products on the route in 2013.

Though DL pumping more economy seats in the market is likely to hurt its already trailing yields further.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4956 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4128 times:
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They are introducing a flat-bed product on all JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA transcons starting March 2013. The 767s will be a start as the 757s get flat-bed upgrades.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1757

The 75Es will be reconfigured and getting 16 flat-bed 2-2 BE seats up front and 44 Economy Comfort seats.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4127 times:
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Here's another link. "Delta full flat beds on business elite on transcontinental flights"

Looks like Delta is going for the kill on the most important domestic route in the U.S

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-...ir-lines-offer-full-160400051.html


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4956 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4123 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Though DL pumping more economy seats in the market is likely to hurt its already trailing yields further.

Nope, not really. Last summer there were 8x daily 75Es for a total of (158*8) = 1264 Y seats per day each direction.
Next summer, there will be 7x daily (4x 763 + 3x 75E) for a total of 1274Y seats, an increase of just 10 seats a day in each direction.

And once the 75Es have been redone, they will have 6 fewer Y seats per plane than today, and if they keep the 4x 767 and 3x 75E on JFK-LAX, they will actually have fewer seats per day in each direction - 1256 (new) vs 1264 (last summer)

[Edited 2012-11-05 08:50:59]

User currently offlineDeltalaw From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

Improving the Business Elite product on an extremely competitive route...just trying to keep up with AA/UA

User currently offlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 558 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
"Delta full flat beds on business elite on transcontinental flights"

Will be much loved by the businessmen and celebrities on this route....   



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineMaddogJT8D From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

Anyone know where the 75E mods are getting done and the estimated timeline?

User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4120 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
Looks like Delta is going for the kill on the most important domestic route in the U.S

Who exactly do you think they will kill on the route........I dont see it being UA or AA so you have to wonder.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4124 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 10):
Who exactly do you think they will kill on the route........I dont see it being UA or AA so you have to wonder.

I think that DL is trying to make VX not bleed money, but hemorrhage it with these product upgrades.

DL wants to be "New York's Airline", pure and simple - and this means competing hard on transcons.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Gotta compete against AA and UA.

Wow, just as AA is getting ready to go all narrowbody on JFK-LAX.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4120 times:

Looks like the 75Es will be getting full flat beds in J in a 2-2 layout. I'm not sure if the Thompson Vantage will fit in such a layout. One model of seat that would fit would be the B/E Aerospace Diamond, similar to what is on UA's PMCO 752s. Any DL insiders here know the exact model of seat?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8912 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4120 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 10):

Who exactly do you think they will kill on the route........I dont see it being UA or AA so you have to wonder.

Considering Delta is the second largest airline (in terms of seats and flights) on both LAX and SFO (AA has 9x LAX, DL 7x, UA 6x; UA has 7x SFO, DL 6x, AA 5x) it's a decent show of force. Heck, next summer Delta is the airline offering the most seats on JFK-SFO (UA is actually in third with their smaller p.s. 757s).

Also keep in mind that on the 767 flights, Delta will be the only airline with a business class product with direct aisle access at each seat (AA only gets you that in F; UA doesn't at all).


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9701 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

One surprise I see is that DL is going from 3 to 5 daily SEA-JFK flights and going to be putting a flat seat product on the route whereas AA only has a single daily 737. I guess DL is going to try to takeover that route. SEA-JFK already sees the occasional 767-300ER to allow for fleet rotation because SEA has an ever expanding long haul market with up to 5 long haul 767 flights each day depending on season.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Makes sense for their international connecting pax as well. Arriving into JFK on one of the reconfigured 767s and then transiting onto a 757 was unpleasant.

What seat is going into the 57s? Same as the 67s? I missed the announcement on that. i didn't even realize they had selected a model.


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

I'm thinking this might also have to do with the fact that JFK-SEA will probably stretch the 75E fleet pretty thiiiin.

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 16):
What seat is going into the 57s? Same as the 67s? I missed the announcement on that. i didn't even realize they had selected a model.

I have been wondering that too. Since DL has stated they will be 16 seats a 2-2 layout, I presume they might be B/E Aerospace Diamond like on UA's PMCO 752s. The Thompson Vantage can only fit in an alternating 2-2/1-1 layout on the 757, although up to 5 rows forward of the exits can fit for a total of 16 seats, with 2-2 in odd rows and 1-1 in even rows.

[Edited 2012-11-05 10:26:20]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4115 times:
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Quoting N62NA (Reply 12):

AA might be going narrow body on JFK-LAX but that will be an upgrade. Business people will like the A321 better than the old 767-200 I'm afraid


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4113 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 19):
AA might be going narrow body on JFK-LAX but that will be an upgrade. Business people will like the A321 better than the old 767-200 I'm afraid

Yep, definitely. Though whether business people (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer a single aisle AA narrowbody on what can be a 6+ hour flight when they could fly an equally "newly upgraded" widebody on DL remains to be seen.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23223 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4113 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
Though whether business people (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer a single aisle AA narrowbody on what can be a 6+ hour flight when they could fly an equally "newly upgraded" widebody on DL remains to be seen.

That's probably a bridge to be crossed when we get there. Will DL prefer to send these aircraft (back) to Europe once the European economy improves? I don't know the answer to that question.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinedavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4111 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
Yep, definitely. Though whether business people (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer a single aisle AA narrowbody on what can be a 6+ hour flight when they could fly an equally "newly upgraded" widebody on DL remains to be seen.

It depends on multiple things, I suspect:

1. Contracts (esp if there is a special negotiated fare).

2. Where are your FFPs at?

3. Timing of flights.

5. Do you prefer a flat bed? (I don't mean to put this last, but to note that many work on the flight).

AA may have a good product with an A321 if they have power, wireless, and AVOD (which DL does not have on theirs). Also, the A321 is a fairly quite ride.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4112 times:
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Does anybody think DL will also upgrade JFK-SFO to 767s?

User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9672 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4111 times:

Quoting davescj (Reply 22):

AA may have a good product with an A321 if they have power, wireless, and AVOD (which DL does not have on theirs). Also, the A321 is a fairly quite ride.

Delta will have Power/Wifi and AVOD on its T-con product and does now.....



yep.
25 davescj : Sorry, you are of course correct. I was referring to DL not having AVOD on the A321. I would suspect only if the 767 were used to sub while another p
26 upsmd11 : Is this going to take some of the 767 equipment out of the current markets like DTW-LAX, ATL-LAX, MSP-LAX, ATL-SFO, ATL-LAS? I fly ATL-LAX often and a
27 cv880 : The JFK product are international 763ER's and the domestic birds that You are referring to are just that (high density/with AVOD).
28 Post contains images panamair : DL can't have AVOD on the A321 'cause DL doesn't have any A321s!
29 DeltaMD90 : So a net increase of 10 seats from last summer is "flooding the market?" Geez this site really confuses me sometimes. Too many armchair CEOs speaking
30 jblua320 : This makes Delta's product more robust without question, but I'd expect that this could also add some serious strength to the SkyMiles program. Since
31 PSU.DTW.SCE : Elite upgrades, with the exception of off-peak flights, are hard to come by on these flights, even as a DM.
32 Deltal1011man : .....they don't have any 321s? but the 932ERs will have AVOD
33 Mercure1 : How about added cost of operating 767 vs 757? Clearly both AA(future A321) and UA(now) have cost advantage with lower cost aircraft along with having
34 AirAfreak : I certainly hope ATL and DTW aren't affected by this change either.... I always opt for the 777 service to/from ATL and the 767's as my second choice
35 laca773 : Awww. Definitely would be a shame for you! I'm glad to hear DL is stepping it up further. UA's product is hit and miss and mostly miss. AA will have
36 BNAtraveler : Wi-Fi on the International-configured B763s? Not yet.... It seems that they should install Gogo domestic service on those birds too.
37 Deltal1011man : I do believe i saw something saying they will be getting wifi....
38 BNAtraveler : Yes, the international fleet will all get wifi in 2013, but Ku-band satellite service from Gogo rather than terrestrial CDMA2000 Rev B. I hope it isn
39 nwa757boy : I believe the 767 transcon service is temporary until all 75Es are modified. There were will be some product inconsistencies if both 757/767 are kept
40 neveragain : I certainly prefer to sleep in a flat bed. Not sure who doesn't. And if you're trying to say many people don't sleep on the flight but rather work, f
41 nwa757boy : I work a lot of transcons in BE, JFK-LAX/SFO and vice versa, as DL cabin crew, and I can tell you no matter the time of day, I'd say 10-11 out of the
42 neveragain : That's been my experience. Same on UA. These people are a lot less important than they would have you think, if they can waste half a day flying with
43 Cubsrule : I can't speak for passengers on transcons, but if I have a decent seat for sleeping (like a flat bed), I sometimes prefer to sleep on the plane and s
44 Highflier92660 : Just an opinion from a passenger who has flown the LAX-JFK and LAX-ATL Delta routes in business class innumerable times, there is an enormous differen
45 MaverickM11 : And/or until Europe becomes less of a pit; where else is DL going to put a sudden surplus of 767s?
46 ual777uk : So its all about the amount of seats with you, not yields, etc. I guess based on that philosophy its only a matter of time before we see DL flying th
47 deltairlines : Different airlines have very different strategies for the same markets. In some cases, it might be try to fill the plane up with lower yields and mak
48 klkla : Delta has been siphoning accounts from AA and UA for a while on these routes and has the advantage now in the NYC market. After all three airlines (A
49 cv880 : I don't think that You'll see flat beds on the domestic 763's, which is what most of the ATL/DTW - West Coast flights are, unless You get a repositio
50 Roseflyer : A 767-300 has lower CASM than a 757-200 when in similar configurations and DL’s domestic 767-300s have great operating economics, but those aren’
51 LDVAviation : Did Delta pick up the accounts that AA and UA no longer wanted because they still lag those two in yields? In fact, didn't Delta also lag JetBlue in
52 LAXintl : I suspect comment was about DOC. Delta in its Form 41 filings say the 763 cost them $8,664 per block hour while 757 is $5,110. Almost 70% dearer. UA
53 Deltal1011man : You do? I missed that memo care to break down the contracts for the JFK/LAX/SFO ends? didn't think so. So you have the cost of each to go along with
54 jfklganyc : This is the most important domestic route out of JFK. Delta has positioned themselves as the airline of choice in NYC. This is just a step in the righ
55 Cubsrule : That's only half the story, though, isn't it? If I'm primarily traveling to Chicago and Dallas, I'm going to like DL a lot more than if I'm primarily
56 slcdeltarumd11 : I think the widebodies are only temporary. Its a way to rush the flat beds into the market. Delta is doing this not to take over the market but just
57 Post contains images N62NA : Seems to me that a lot of people sleep most of the flight on any of the flights I take, from long ones like MIA-LAX to a short hop MIA-MSY. You mean
58 LAXintl : Below RASM/Yield ($ cents) numbers as how airlines stack up. JFK-LAX UA - 12.32 AA - 11.92 VX - 11.25 DL - 9.73 B6 - 8.78 JFK-SFO UA - 12.54 VX - 11.5
59 slcdeltarumd11 : Thats really my experiences on AA and UA too. Lots of people rest on those transcons with more comfortable seats any time they takeoff. You are deali
60 LDVAviation : ... Because that accounts for all the difference. SMH.
61 Cubsrule : It's not so easy to laugh away VX's significant yield advantage in both markets, and VX certainly doesn't have the network to foment loyalty on the N
62 Post contains links N62NA : Courtesy of the excellent website http://www.departedflights.com/ I thought it might be fun to post what "it used to be like" on JFK-LAX. November 197
63 Post contains images Deltal1011man : I'm not at all. Heck Its about the only market that VX's product should work. (my problem with VS is....well the rest of its network) still waiting o
64 LDVAviation : I never made cost (profitability) an issue. You did. As far as my argument was concerned, that was a non-sequitor. I made my comment (argument) in re
65 slcdeltarumd11 : Im not even sure JFK-LAX/SFO/LAS make money. They get some additional money sure but not much extra per mile or hour of plane use time. Virgin Americ
66 Deltal1011man : Delta's corporate numbers have been going up, per the last few earning class. Of course that could be in OMA and not have anything to do with NYC/SFO
67 deltairlines : Well is it RASM or is it Yield? There's a pretty decent distinction between the two given the load factor component of RASM. Also, there is the CASM
68 AirAfreak : Yes, I am 6'2" (188cm) and I hate the 767 First Class... I might as well sit in Economy Comfort! I agree with you! Sometimes I get lucky and the 77L
69 bobnwa : I know Delta keeps saying that corporate contracts are increasing, but have never seen any numbers to back that statement up. No airline including De
70 delimit : His numbers are useless as a point of comparison without more information.
71 Post contains images dlflynhayn : Damm i was hoping a couple of them 757Es would move over to do LAX-KOA/LIH/OGG services.oh well i can dream.The 757's currently on these routes are h
72 Cubsrule : Maybe, but that assumes that loads are appreciably different. Do you have some information on that? I have no information one way or the other.
73 LAXintl : Its passenger yield per ASM. Straight RASM includes combined total unit revenue(such as cargo) which is not included above. The numbers reflect the r
74 delimit : And what conclusions can be drawn from them? Nothing. Also, presenting them in a list like that with zero caveat is bordering on intellectually disho
75 commavia : ??? RASM is revenue per ASM (i.e., revenue per seat on the plane whether sold or not). Yield is revenue per RPM (i.e., revenue per seat sold on the p
76 panamair : Even if one were just looking at the revenue numbers, It would be more relevant if we were doing an apples-to-apples comparison. For example, both UA
77 Cubsrule : How, though, do you explain the yield disadvantage to VX, whose 320s are configured 8/12/129, or with just about 5 percent premium seats.
78 deltairlines : Likely Delta's yield gets hit by prorates on international segments heading to Europe. Virgin America's yield is likely much more local traffic and t
79 LAXintl : You can draw out exactly what the numbers represent. In this case revenue each carrier is able to obtain from passengers in a specific market. Here s
80 commavia : Yes. I knew the definitions already. Thus why I was asking what "yield per ASM" is. Yield, by definition, refers to RPMs, not ASMs.
81 LAXintl : Actually should be the other way around for DL -- a shorter domestic leg should get a higher allocation then the longer international leg. Under the
82 deltairlines : Depends on the airline. I've worked in revenue management for two major airlines and each had some very distinct differences in dealing with prorates
83 commavia : Again, yes - thus you can understand my confusion. You called it "yield per ASM," not "PRASM."
84 zippyjet : A step in the right direction at least for enthusiasts such as myself. Not that there's anything wrong with the 757!
85 AZNCSA4QF744ER : Isn't the new United Airlines going away with P.S. service by eliminating F cabin and going 2 cabin.
86 Post contains images Deltal1011man : this is my point. No one can say Delta is gaining ground or losing ground. RASM numbers sure as hell are meaningless in that argument. The only thing
87 Cubsrule : Why don't you tell us why exactly the numbers are flawed in this context rather than throwing around wild, unsupported accusations? "They paint a bad
88 B727FA : That's because the JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA service is a domestic BE product. It SHOULD feel better than "domestic first" b/c it's essentially the same of the
89 B727FA : The 757 will be a 2-2 BE product and the 767 will be a 1-2-1 direct access product.
90 1337Delta764 : Just got a response at FT about the 757 flat-bed seats. The seats will be a specially modified version of the B/E Aerospace Diamond flat-bed seat, and
91 Deltal1011man : I have 500 times. 1) things can be allocated differently airline by airline. 2) cost matter....period. This doesn't show that. Doesn't matter how hig
92 Cubsrule : Fair enough. Do you have some facts that would suggest that DL allocates in a way that hurts its apparent RASM performance on NYC-LAX/SFO? Again, VX
93 Deltal1011man : no. I'm not saying Delta is doing good. lol my points were RASM had nothing to do with corporate contract market and that RASM numbers don't tell the
94 neveragain : Nonsense.
95 1337Delta764 : FYI, the new Y seats will be B/E Aerospace Pinnacle. The reason for the replacement of the Weber 5751 seats is due to the fact that Y will be getting
96 neveragain : I wish you a long career in aircraft interiors, as you really know your stuff.
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