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DL To Latin America  
User currently offlineAmfleet82 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 9 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1646 times:

I have been fascinated by the various posts concerning Delta's inability to be competitive in the Latin market with their Atlanta focused flights. I have used DL for GRU and EZE flights and it always cracks me up that people will fly to ATL and then backtrack to Miami!

What has kept DL from growing JFK (likely there only real O&D hub with significant Latin traffic) into a stronger Latin Gateway? Would the NWA ordered 787's have helped them? Right now I believe only GRU and BOG are flown from JFK. It seems JFK could support LIM, GIG and UIO flights.

Adam

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25436 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

As discussed prior Latin America is the most profitable segment for US carriers, but Delta indeed struggles.

Latin America: Most Profitable For US Airlines (by LAXintl Jul 18 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Trying to make Atlanta a Miami North has surely been a challenge even by DL's own admission.

For NYC, yes it has a much larger local market, but the stage length are longer being so far north, and its not much very convenient as connection point for most of the US either.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

How much of this is a question (currently) of getting the rights to routes in Brazil?

Another question: for Mexico (which I understand does not speak for all Latin America), could a JV with Aeromexico increase flight to Mexico while leaving metal free for other routes?

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25436 posts, RR: 49
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

Quoting davescj (Reply 2):
How much of this is a question (currently) of getting the rights to routes in Brazil?

Delta has received authority to only pull out from one Brazil market after another -- Fortaleza, Manaus and Recife have been discontinued. Plus some specific markets like LAX-GRU also have been tried and dropped.

Quoting davescj (Reply 2):
Another question: for Mexico (which I understand does not speak for all Latin America), could a JV with Aeromexico increase flight to Mexico while leaving metal free for other routes?

Yes much could be done with AM, however it seems neither is extremely interested in tying their networks in tightly.

DL prefers to run its global network with connections in mind, while AM is more focused on its home market needs including offering more focused ethnic O&D routes. Their respective models dont quite mix.

To me the Mexicana - United relationship was the same while in Star. Both carriers had divergent needs and interest.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 778 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1680 times:

From a European connections point of view, DL's timings through ATL dont help either. 8 hours plus of a layover to places like EZE or SCL are less than ideal and considering the relative lack of competition from Europe to deep South America (compared to for example Europe to Asia), its not to be taken lightly


Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3705 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

Well, it's funny that you shall mention that today. DL is announcing the relocation of its Commercial HQ for Latin America and Caribbean to Brazil:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...dquarters-to-brazil-177276261.html


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6180 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Quoting Amfleet82 (Thread starter):
I have used DL for GRU and EZE flights and it always cracks me up that people will fly to ATL and then backtrack to Miami!

Well I know people that do BZE-ATL-FLL/MIA

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Trying to make Atlanta a Miami North has surely been a challenge even by DL's own admission.

Hence maybe why there has been rampant speculation that DL will make some kind of strategic move for AA's MIA ops.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

Quoting EIRules (Reply 4):

From a European connections point of view, DL's timings through ATL dont help either. 8 hours plus of a layover to places like EZE or SCL are less than ideal and considering the relative lack of competition from Europe to deep South America (compared to for example Europe to Asia), its not to be taken lightly

Yah, but there's really not a major need for ATL to provide this function as most markets like EZE, GRU, GIG, and to a lesser degree, LIM and SCL are already connected by nonstop service to major European hubs. No real need to connect over the US or Canada.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineBDL757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
Well, it's funny that you shall mention that today. DL is announcing the relocation of its Commercial HQ for Latin America and Caribbean to Brazil:

We have been told a few times in memo's from HQ that Latin America is one of the fastest growing regions and that it is a place that we will continue to focus on. However it does not seem that Latin America performs very well for us. I'm wondering what is going to be done to address that? Perhaps this move is a start.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8374 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1683 times:
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Quoting Amfleet82 (Thread starter):
I have been fascinated by the various posts concerning Delta's inability to be competitive in the Latin market with their Atlanta focused flights. I have used DL for GRU and EZE flights and it always cracks me up that people will fly to ATL and then backtrack to Miami!

Lots of people in Florida like Delta especially if they don't live in Miami, I flew to EZE on DL from my local airport PBI. Dealing with that Planet called MIA is a pain. Most of Florida is NOT what Miami is, Its Not the Capital of Latin America. Its the sixth borough or a sunny place for people from up north. IF you define Florida by what Miami is eveything outside Dade County will seem wrong.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6180 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 8):
However it does not seem that Latin America performs very well for us.

Could be how it is accounted for too.....For example a MSP-ATL-EZE ticket may have more revenue assigned to the MSP-ATL segment than the EZE segment. Could also mean that they are pouring resources back into LatAm for longer term gain...sorta like how they poured resources in LGA that are now paying dividends. Could also mean that AA and UA are just kicking their butts yield wise.

Remember DL is relatively late to the LatAM game....AA and UA(CO) have had many years to learn how to do business there and get maximum return on investment there. These carriers also have very very loyal FF bases, that will fly those carriers even when fares are substantially higher. (I see it all the time here in BZE). DL is converting some of these FFs over....but it is goign to take time and money.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
Dealing with that Planet called MIA is a pain.

Yes, it is a zoo....but it has gotten a bit better since the new facility there has opened. Customs is still horrid though.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11641 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
Well, it's funny that you shall mention that today. DL is announcing the relocation of its Commercial HQ for Latin America and Caribbean to Brazil:

I like how Delta's PR says that, "Ferri's relocation to Brazil makes Delta Air Lines the only U.S. carrier to have a vice president residing in Latin America." I suspect anyone who's ever spent much time in Miami might argue a bit with that assessment!

 
Quoting BDL757 (Reply 8):
We have been told a few times in memo's from HQ that Latin America is one of the fastest growing regions and that it is a place that we will continue to focus on. However it does not seem that Latin America performs very well for us. I'm wondering what is going to be done to address that? Perhaps this move is a start.
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 10):
Remember DL is relatively late to the LatAM game....AA and UA(CO) have had many years to learn how to do business there and get maximum return on investment there. These carriers also have very very loyal FF bases, that will fly those carriers even when fares are substantially higher.

I think it's largely a function of Delta's structurally disadvantaged network relative to AA. Not to sound like a broken record, but MIA is so dominant as a U.S. gateway for many markets in Central and South America that whoever holds MIA ultimately holds the keys to the Latin America kingdom. The market is just so much larger.

Plus, AA has such an entrenched sales force and corporate/FF presence in so many of the region's markets - which is itself largely a function of the shear breadth of AA's penetration into so many markets - that it puts AA at a huge competitive advantage. AA has sales and ticketing offices - often several of them - in just about every major city in the region, along with tons of local contracts, etc.

Delta has done an incredibly impressive job in the last 20 years of turning ATL in the nation's second-largest gateway to non-Mexico Latin America, but alas it is still tiny compared to AA at MIA - many markets that Delta cannot support with more than 1 daily flight, or in some cases hasn't been able to make work at all, easily support multiple frequencies to MIA on AA and often foreign carriers as well.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2631 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

There are several reasons why DL isn't doing that well in Latin America.
Yes there's the "MIA is where the demand is" syndrome but other than that obvious one:
1) Distance-wise ATL location doesn't help DL be able to use smaller jets to cover much of Latin America / Caribbean without the need to take a bigger jet out of a profitable domestic route, And since ATL is an inferior product than MIA for lots of Latin American markets its imperative that DL flies overnight both ways between ATL and deep South America thus needing 2 aircraft is the route is going to be flown daily.
2) ATL out-bound departures mornings and late afternoon ATL arrivals often are not attractive for those markets DL should be looking after in the region; yes R.O.N. a DL aircraft may be a hassle when compared to a quick turn-around but if that's what the market likes, it's the way to go.
3) DL is so ATL-centric that it isn't willing to develop routes out of its focus and minor-hubs to Latin America which may work. DL stubborness for ATL-FOR instead of a FLL-FOR route is such an example (IMHO, South Florida - FOR O/D could had alone supported that route). And I dare to say that several of DL current destinations may be able to support some kind of ATL complementary service from other DL focus/hub airports (MEM, DTW, MSP, FLL).
4) DL @ NYC faces stiff competition directly from AA @ JFK and indirectly from UA @ EWR. The only NYC - Americas non-stop market where DL is alone as a U.S. carrier is GEO and that is a mostly O/D route which AA would immediately take from DL if given a chance.
5) Looking at DL ATL lack of DL late night arrivals (2330-0030h) or early morning departures (0530-0630) makes me believe that the chances of offering some kind of LCC-style fare red-eyes flights to a few of its current destinations don't look good. It could have save DL keeping aircraft at some Latin tarmac overnight.
IMHO, There's hope but DL has still a long way to go in Latin America..



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineBDL757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 12):



Yeah, it is quite clear that ATL cannot act as a primary gateway to Latin America/South America. DL will have to develop a different gateway...the question is where though (especially given the hubs they have)?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25436 posts, RR: 49
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1687 times:

Ideally it needs to be someplace that has decent existing O&D demand already to complement whatever transfer traffic they generate.

While both NYC and LA have underlying markets neither one is ideal for nationwide connections, nor can they support a very wide set of destinations due to stage lengths involved.

To me geographically Florida is the place. Maybe bring the MCO hub back?   



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6180 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 13):
Yeah, it is quite clear that ATL cannot act as a primary gateway to Latin America/South America. DL will have to develop a different gateway...the question is where though (especially given the hubs they have)?
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Ideally it needs to be someplace that has decent existing O&D demand already to complement whatever transfer traffic they generate.

MIA, MIA, MIA



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineAmfleet82 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

I also don't really see the need for Latin America-Europe connectivity. Most Argentinians/Brazilians would prefer avoiding the US and its ridiculous Transit Visas and instead take direct flights.

There was much gained by the DL/NW merger. NWA was unaware of the world south of the equator and DL couldn't figure out how to connect to Asia as its economies exploded. However the combined carrier's network is just geographically inferior to UA or AA when it comes to the Latin world.

I don't know the local market well, but i wonder of FLL or MCO could be grown into mini-Latin gateways?

DL has done a few smart things when it comes to Latin America. One was scheduling the ATL-BSB flight to continue on to DCA, thus creating a DCA-ATL-BSB one stop flight on the same metal. The DTW-GRU flight also appears to be doing well. The new interiors on DL are some of the best on US metal heading south. There will be failures though, like MSP-MEX or Fortaleza and Salvador.


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 783 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

1. What exactly defines "Latin America"? Is it Central and South America plus Mexico?

2.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
that Planet called MIA is a pain

Why do you consider Miami another planet? Isn't California and New Orleans a different planet to some?

3. Could DL make FLL work? Is it set up for significant international flights from the DL terminal or is there a separate international departures/arrivals terminal?

4. Does DL need more bilingual cabin crew onboard to serve the market?


User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1697 times:

Quoting Amfleet82 (Reply 16):
I also don't really see the need for Latin America-Europe connectivity. Most Argentinians/Brazilians would prefer avoiding the US and its ridiculous Transit Visas and instead take direct flights.

There is the visa issue, but in reality a lot of the flying public to europe normally holds a US visa. The real deal here is the horrible treatment that latin americans receive by US customs officers, which adds to the hassle of already having to deal with TSA and carrying your bags from belt to belt, something that isn't done anywhere else in the world.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
Yah, but there's really not a major need for ATL to provide this function as most markets like EZE, GRU, GIG, and to a lesser degree, LIM and SCL are already connected by nonstop service to major European hubs.

All latin american capitals enjoy multiple connections to Europe, BOG has much more capacity to Europe than SCL and CCS probably has more capacity than SCL and BOG combined. Ecuador and Panama have IB and KL, and the other small markets have IB to MAD (SJO, GUA, MVD, SAL) there really isn't much demand for Latin America-Europe connections via the US. But there are exceptions when DL offers competitive fares. From BOG there is the possibility of connecting to most of their european network in ATL. Some belgian friends of mine who came last year flew BRU-ATL-BOG because DL was the cheapest.

The thing with ATL is that it will never have the business or ethnic ties that south Florida has with South America, so demand will always be limited to connections and a very small O/D component.



Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1687 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
As discussed prior Latin America is the most profitable segment for US carriers, but Delta indeed struggles.

DL may indeed struggle in Latin America, but I wouldn't point to those figures as proof. As presented, there's the illusion that the figures can be compared among airlines, but all the figures are good for is comparing year-over-year performance for the same airline. The fact that DL reports domestic sector profit in these (Form 41) reports while implying the exact opposite on investor calls should make everyone realize that what is really driving these numbers are internal airline accounting decisions.

Quoting EIRules (Reply 4):
From a European connections point of view, DL's timings through ATL dont help either. 8 hours plus of a layover to places like EZE or SCL are less than ideal and considering the relative lack of competition from Europe to deep South America (compared to for example Europe to Asia), its not to be taken lightly

If you're connecting from Europe to EZE or SCL via ATL, then you're fare-sensitive and the 8-hour connection is the "hidden" price. I can't imagine the options via MIA being appreciably different.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
I like how Delta's PR says that, "Ferri's relocation to Brazil makes Delta Air Lines the only U.S. carrier to have a vice president residing in Latin America." I suspect anyone who's ever spent much time in Miami might argue a bit with that assessment!

Hahahahaha!!! Wait, no, that wasn't funny.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
Delta has done an incredibly impressive job in the last 20 years of turning ATL in the nation's second-largest gateway to non-Mexico Latin America,

I don't have the energy to check this assertion, but I doubt it's right. To South America, probably. To South and Central America, I would be surprised if IAH didn't come out on top. Are you including the Caribbean?

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
but alas it is still tiny compared to AA at MIA

There you go again. DL's Latin America operation at ATL isn't "tiny" compared with AA at MIA. It's certainly smaller, but it's not "tiny."


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25436 posts, RR: 49
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 19):
DL may indeed struggle in Latin America, but I wouldn't point to those figures as proof.

The proof is Delta managing director of market development himself admitting the carrier lags peers in the region as it struggles with a lacks markets that can support high frequency service and also suffers from lack of brand awareness in the region.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11641 posts, RR: 61
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1690 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 19):
To South and Central America, I would be surprised if IAH didn't come out on top. Are you including the Caribbean?

I am using the DOT definition of Latin America, which includes the Caribbean, and adding in SJU and STT (domestic). I pulled using the airlines' published timetables, although I may well have missed things or miscalculated - please correct me if I did.

But by my numbers, using Christmas week (typically a peak travel period both for VFR-heavy and leisure-heavy Latin America markets), Delta is operating over 30% more weekly departures out of ATL to non-Mexico Latin America than United is out of IAH (296 vs 225).

For comparison purposes, AA out of MIA is at well over 800.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 19):
There you go again. DL's Latin America operation at ATL isn't "tiny" compared with AA at MIA. It's certainly smaller, but it's not "tiny."

"There I go again?"   

"Tiny" is a subjective word, but I think it's appropriate for 800+ vs 296. Let me use an alternative that may be less controversial for you: "dramatically smaller" - Delta's Latin operation out of ATL is "dramatically smaller" than AA's out of MIA.

This winter, AA will be operating nonstop from MIA to 27 Caribbean islands/markets vs Delta's 18, and with nearly four times the frequency (464 weekly flights vs 161). AA will be operating nearly double the flights (140 vs 72) to Central America as Delta will out of ATL. AA will be operating more weekly flights from MIA to Brazil alone than Delta will from ATL to the entire continent of South America.

Need I go on? I think the numbers speak for themselves.


User currently offlineogre727 From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 720 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1690 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 21):

You are right. Tiny is subjective. However i didnt know the figures and from your comment I thought the ratio woud be much smaller than 800+ vs. 296.

Also, do your math. It is actually less than 3 times the frequency (160x3=480).

I dont care about delta or aa, but your post does come across as tinily biased...



Sigh
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8374 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1690 times:
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Quoting commavia (Reply 21):

"Tiny" is a subjective word, but I think it's appropriate for 800+ vs 296. Let me use an alternative that may be less controversial for you: "dramatically smaller" - Delta's Latin operation out of ATL is "dramatically smaller" than AA's out of MIA.

This winter, AA will be operating nonstop from MIA to 27 Caribbean islands/markets vs Delta's 18, and with nearly four times the frequency (464 weekly flights vs 161). AA will be operating nearly double the flights (140 vs 72) to Central America as Delta will out of ATL. AA will be operating more weekly flights from MIA to Brazil alone than Delta will from ATL to the entire continent of South America.

Delta doesn't capture the Miami traffic which is obviously the first choice destination fron Latin America. The market is still large enough for DL to have a decent operation from Atlanta to the region. Delta even has a Detroit to Sao Paulo flight, Latin America has gradudated from only Miami & JFK. UA has a decent Houston and Newark( ORD to GRU is flown daily) operation to the region as does AA from DFW & JFK.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11641 posts, RR: 61
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
The market is still large enough for DL to have a decent operation from Atlanta to the region.

I'd say it's more than decent. Again - it's the second largest U.S. gateway to non-Mexico Latin America. And I think Delta definitely still has more room to grow ATL. I'm not sure how much more organic growth they can support to South America ex-Brazil, but Brazil definitely holds more opportunity for Delta (and all airlines) as it continues to grow and develop as the undisputed economic and geopolitical force in South America. Right now I don't think Delta could realistically make anything else work to Brazil besides perhaps CNF, and a second daily GRU/GIG, but in time they probably will be able to profitably fly to smaller secondary markets again.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
Delta even has a Detroit to Sao Paulo flight, Latin America has gradudated from only Miami & JFK. UA has a decent Houston and Newark( ORD to GRU is flown daily) operation to the region as does AA from DFW & JFK.

  

There are plenty of other non-MIA/JFK hubs in the U.S. that have been turned into viable gateways to Latin America (Mexico and non-Mexico). You listed the main ones there - ATL, IAH, DFW, EWR and even to a lesser extent IAD and ORD. None of those will ever be able to support the same breadth and depth of service MIA does (multiple daily flights to just about every single major market in the region), but they are all viable and can continue to grow.


25 2travel2know2 : If DL wants to grab a piece of the MIA-Latin America market without going head to head with AA, FLL might be the choice; however NK already flies out
26 catiii : What exactly does this mean?
27 2travel2know2 : The major Latin American / Caribbean O/D P2P demand is in MIA (geographic region + airport).. For all other connecting traffic, sure IAH and ATL (per
28 catiii : Ok, but you said ATL is an "inferior product." They have a brand new int'l terminal that far exceeds anything MIA has. SO in what way is ATL's produc
29 IrishAyes : quote=commavia,reply=24]You listed the main ones there - ATL, IAH, DFW, EWR and even to a lesser extent IAD and ORD.[/quote] Also CLT. I believe they
30 DeltaMD90 : I don't think he's talking about airports, just geography. That's how I read it
31 LDVAviation : Hyperbole? The new Concourse D at Miami is quite nice on the inside, better design in my opinion than the new international terminal at Atlanta.
32 RAGAZZO777 : For what it's worth, DL is now deploying the A330 to Lima and Buenos Aires, and the 764 to Rio de Janeiro. This smart move will last during the entire
33 eastern023 : Hard to believe that UA just walked away...could have made sense back in 2002, but now it would have been nice to have...IAH and EWR are not a leg to
34 2travel2know2 : It's definitely not in its infrastructure. It's on its mainstream perception in Latin America when compared to MIA. I never got to fly US between PTY
35 IrishAyes : This is always an ANET hot topic: the fateful UA hub at MIA. It's a tale of two airlines. UA acquired the MIA ops from PanAm, AA from Eastern. Both t
36 SCL767 : That is correct. LATAM will soon operate 49 weekly flights into JFK from GIG, GRU, GYE, LIM, and SCL. Also, DL will soon be competing directly with L
37 EddieDude : Mexico and the U.S. do not have open-skies. Without open-skies, airlines from the two countries would not be allowed by U.S. antitrust authorities to
38 MaverickM11 : I think MIA has gotten this mythical status on a.net as some sort of money printing machine, when I am confident it is firmly behind DFW in terms of
39 FlyASAGuy2005 : It is an extremely saturated market down there. Even with the extra O/D gained from the area, the flights will still have to rely on connections to m
40 neveragain : We're saying the same thing. I'm saying don't look at Form 41; you're saying the proof isn't in Form 41. As you use it, it would appear so. I may agr
41 Deltal1011man : just a note, GIG has been a 400ER for years in the winter(ATL winter, GRU summer). Also EZE/LIM use to see the 400ER. Believe ATL-SCL has also been 7
42 SCL767 : That is correct. During the NW2011 season, DL operated the ATL-SCL route daily with the B764. This year, it's back to the B763. LAN and AA are the on
43 klwright69 : Maybe. But a long time ago CO did EWR-BOG-UIO. Eventually CO dropped the UIO tag. Also CO downgraded EWR-BOG to the smallest aircraft that could fly
44 commavia : I agree that it isn't "mythical." I think it is very-much fact-based, at least regarding the sheer size of MIA's local market to the Caribbean, Centr
45 jfk777 : United and AA took two different approaches to Miami, AA was all thing to all people, short and long haul. UA flew a Central America schedule with 73
46 C010T3 : I did not survive 9/11, but the problem nowadays is actually at GRU. UA's IAD-GRU has a tag-on to GIG, but if UA decided to end that tag today, it wo
47 Cubsrule : Perhaps we need to talk about two Latin American route networks distinctly: the network that connects to IAH, DFW and, to some degree, LAX, and the n
48 klwright69 : So IAD-GRU-GIG and EWR-GIG nonstop both would not be allowed?
49 bogota : That is true CO operated a 757 when the UIO tag was still operating, they then decided to operate BOG without the tag on on the B737-700 which is the
50 C010T3 : EWR-GIG is allowed at any time. Dropping the tag of the IAD-GRU-GIG would be the problem. The aircraft has to leave GRU, since the aircraft would hav
51 Post contains links nickofatlanta : Interestingly, DL has just announced that it is moving its commercial HQs for Latin America and the Caribbean from ATL to Sao Paulo - the first time a
52 AA767LOVER : Several experiences at MIA make me fully concur! MIA is a pain in the rump.
53 yellowtail : While I avoid MIA at all costs, I would say that it is no more chaotic and crowded than LAX or JFK from an arrivals perspective. And one has to remem
54 RCS763AV : Completely agree. It's like trying to replace London as the primary gateway to Europe from the US. There's nothing mythical about the MIA hub, it's t
55 SJOtoLIR : Latin America is strictly defined as those countries and regions placed in the continent where languages derived from Latin are primarily spoken. Som
56 Arcano : I don't think daily, I took that flight in Jan that year and 763 both ways... Regards
57 TR1 : Would there be any opportunities for additional JFK-Latin America flying? With Aerolineas Argentinas' problems could JFK-EZE be a viable route?
58 jfk777 : Flights from non Miami USA cities have more to do with the destination in Latin America then the city North America. That is why Sao Paulo is the king
59 LDVAviation : When Delta first started flying from Atlanta to Santiago, the CEO of LanChile (now LAN/LaTam) was asked by AviationWeek if he considered that a compe
60 OB1504 : Even Customs has improved, as the new D FIS opened just a few months ago, replacing the outdated and overcapacity E FIS. DL tried an MIA focus city o
61 MaverickM11 : I think DFW is the higher margin of the two. AA owns DFW, has a much richer business mix, and much less competition, whether it's competent airlines
62 neveragain : There is no substance in this thread, other than if "Latinos had a choice they would go to Miami before they would go to Atlanta." I'm not sure why t
63 SJOtoLIR : Dominican Republic belongs to the Caribbean and Latin America. Technically, St. Maarten and Trinidad & Tobago of course are not forming part of L
64 jfk777 : MIA has evolved like many other airporrts, at MIA the AA terminal is FINALLY finished as is j concourse. But Miami is still in its own "mind set". AA
65 Cubsrule : Sort of a silly statement, don't you think? I don't expect US or AA to have one route map that shows me " true Latin America" and another that shows
66 C010T3 : It's only a problem for those who want separate the US and Canada from the rest of the continent. When an European airline, for example, shows Europe
67 Cubsrule : . . . and I'm in favor of that, though I called it "Western Hemisphere" rather than "Americas." "Americas" is probably actually a better name but ala
68 C010T3 : It's not difficult at all. SAS has 3 home markets and still calls their European routes European routes, not "rest of Europe".
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