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Rise And Fall Of An International Airport  
User currently offlineplanesofthepast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2147 times:

I've been fascinated by this topic for a while: the construction of Greater Southwest International Airport in Texas, and its subsequent destruction in a period of just a few years. Those who live in the Dallas - Fort Worth area are probably familiar with the story. Those that have flown into the DFW Airport may have seen the site of the former airport at landing or takeoff.

Here's a quick summary of story as I understand it ...

http://www.planesofthepast.com/amon-...outhwest-international-airport.htm

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

There are more pictures and details on the Abandoned and Little Known Airfields website:

http://members.tripod.com/airfields_...fields_TX_FtWorth_NE.htm#greaterSW


User currently offlinethomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3860 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2155 times:

Was GSW a true "international" airport?


"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently onlinecipango From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2160 times:

CVG and CLE to me have deteriorated as an "International" airport.

They once had large networks across the USA and Europe on DL and Co respectively.

Now they're a focus city at most.



Next Flights: DUB-BHX-DUB, DUB-BHX-DUB, DUB-LIS-DUB.
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6708 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2158 times:

Did it ever have a nonstop outside the US... I'm guessing not. For most of its life half? its nonstops were to DAL.

User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3639 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2158 times:

Quoting cipango (Reply 3):
CVG and CLE to me have deteriorated as an "International" airport.

They once had large networks across the USA and Europe on DL and Co respectively.

Now they're a focus city at most.

Don't forget MEM after the DL/NW merger (though you do have options at MEM if you ship yourself via FX). In many cases, the pax service at MEM is now worse than that at CLE or CVG.

Also of note are the many airports that don't have an FIS but have a CBP facility for cargo or general aviation. My hometown airport FWA springs to mind, but they plan on adding an FIS in the next terminal renovation. And there are some "international" airports that have zero passenger service; HUF is notable here.

[Edited 2012-11-05 16:00:57]


I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinecanyonblue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

What about PIT after US downsized....

User currently offlinebwest From Belgium, joined Jul 2006, 1356 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

It's a shame to see such a nice art deco building demolished as late as in 1980. If only we had more respect for such architectural marvels...


I love my Airport Job! :)
User currently offlinedcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

Quoting bwest (Reply 7):
It's a shame to see such a nice art deco building demolished as late as in 1980. If only we had more respect for such architectural marvels...

I agree completely. Demolishing it was a crime. This is why I have such strong feelings about knocking down the PAA Worldport. Once something is gone, it's gone.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3639 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 6):
What about PIT after US downsized....

The ultimate case study of what a dehubbing can do to an airport. US did far more damage to PIT in the course of three to four years than AA did to STL in ten years.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5429 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2159 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
The ultimate case study of what a dehubbing can do to an airport. US did far more damage to PIT in the course of three to four years than AA did to STL in ten years.

You can't compare the two. AA was a slow drawdown driven by their own competing hubs, and where other airlines (notably WN) have picked up at least some of the slack.

PIT was a sudden move, and despite the fact that it's been 7 years since the dehubbing began, no airlines have filled in the gap, which implies PIT itself is uneconomical.

Just my   



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDariusBieber From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2158 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5):
though you do have options at MEM if you ship yourself via FX

Probably cheaper and better service than most US Airlines.



Darius Bieber
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2159 times:

Quoting cipango (Reply 3):
They once had large networks across the USA and Europe on DL and Co respectively.
CVG to Europe, maybe. CLE, never. In any case, I doubt the number of nonstop destinations from CLE today is that much different from the number in 2000. Maybe 30 fewer destinations, tops, but I wouldn't consider losing nonstops to GRB, FWA, and the like as meaningful indicators of the "fall" of a great "international" hub.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5):
Don't forget MEM after the DL/NW merger (though you do have options at MEM if you ship yourself via FX).

File MEM with CLE. Never a (passenger) international hub.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):

The ultimate case study of what a dehubbing can do to an airport. US did far more damage to PIT in the course of three to four years than AA did to STL in ten years.

How do you figure?



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
PIT was a sudden move, and despite the fact that it's been 7 years since the dehubbing began, no airlines have filled in the gap, which implies PIT itself is uneconomical.

That's a broad-brush statement to make. What makes a market "uneconomical"? Do you mean "uneconomical" for an airline to serve as a hub? What airports that have lost a hub have seen comparable service from a replacement airline?

[Edited 2012-11-05 20:43:13]


[Edited 2012-11-05 20:46:08]

User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5393 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2158 times:

The terminal building at GSW was amazingly beautiful, and a very modern terminal for its time. Even after all airlines had withdrawn from serving the airport, the City of Fort Worth doggedly continued to maintain the terminal and, when you went in there, it looked as if at any moment the barber would return, the restaurant would reopen, etc. The bas relief mural in the great hall was amazing.

It is too bad, indeed, that no part of it was saved.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

What about Milan-Malpensa (MXP) ?

This airport went down the drains when Alitalia pulled out in 2009... the only thing keeping it alive is the long-haul carriers coming in from Asia/America/Africa... and just because they can't land in Milan-Linate (LIN).

797



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlinekatanapilot From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

I'm pretty sure the biggest rise and fall of an airport in aviation history would be Mirabel (YMX). It was the largest airport by area in the world for 24 years and at one point was intended to have six terminals and six runways and be one of the busiest airports in the world!

Now it just handles cargo :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C...80%93Mirabel_International_Airport


User currently offlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1301 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

Quoting 797 (Reply 14):
What about Milan-Malpensa (MXP) ?

This airport went down the drains when Alitalia pulled out in 2009... the only thing keeping it alive is the long-haul carriers coming in from Asia/America/Africa... and just because they can't land in Milan-Linate (LIN).

Are you serious? Passenger figures have fully recovered and are still increasing, thanks to easyJet, which is now a massive player at the airport.



'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11929 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

Quoting katanapilot (Reply 15):
Now it just handles cargo :p

And is where the Bombardier CR7/9/10s have their first flights...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1281 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
no airlines have filled in the gap, which implies PIT itself is uneconomical.

I wouldn't say that. I think it's more a case that most Airlines are uneconomical, and are waking up to the fact that they can barely afford to hold onto what they already have; forget about opening new hubs. Personally, I think it's really too bad about PIT. I think it would work as a great hub for someone like VX, F9, or even B6. Problem is that none of those airlines can afford to do that. But if they were able to somehow, or had somehow done so in the past, I think PIT would be working great for them just about now.

On the actual topic, until very recently, I lived right on the large patch of ground that GSW occupied. If it makes everyone feel any better, it's being developed rather nicely these days, but not at the break-neck 1990s - 2000s pace. There's actually some of the old runway still left at the end of Amon Carter (just north of 183), where one can see
Airport Police and Emergency Services routinely practicing driving maneuvers.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

Most who drive past the old airport or live in the new townhouses built on the site are surely not aware of the history. I stay at the DFW Marriott South while at CAE Simuflite training...was there last week. The hotel is on the old site too and hotel staff I talked to have no idea.

There are still some spots with bits and pieces of access roads, trees that once lined the old terminal entrance are still there and a bit of runway/taxiway but one has to know what to look for. What's left blends in with the current "landscape" and I imagine will be built over in another 10 years.

I notice the AA training facility is located in a spot that would have once been across the road from the airport entrance. Not sure how long AA has been in this spot but curious if this is coincidence or was the location determined when this old airport was functioning?


User currently offlineeclipseflight7 From Somalia, joined Apr 2004, 518 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

The majority of the airports listed in posts above have no context to the OP's discussion. Pittsburgh, Memphis, and STL still exist, and are not in any danger of being ripped up or built over. Amon Carter Field wasn't dehubbed and had idle gates, and frankly thats a discussion for a different thread. GSW was systematically built and destroyed in a pissing contest between Dallas and Fort Worth.

The then mayor of Fort Worth, Amon Carter, was a staunch proponent that his city was far better than Dallas, and insisted on lobbying for the continued development of GSW. The FAA was sick of funding two separate airports that served the same community, so saying DAL was more successful isn't totally correct. GSW had far better infrastructure compared to Love Field, and frankly I think it was a waste to not use GSW's infrastructure when DFW was relatively green-fielded. Then again, DFW made a lot more sense when DAL was supposed to be shut down. Had Southwest existed a few years earlier and been privvy to the agreement to move to DFW, GSW 's destruction

American's flight attendant training facility issues pay stubs with the airport base code as GSW. The Abandoned Airfields website, which is freaking awesome for all airports by the way, gives a good narrative of what happened.



Holy sh*ts and burritos.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4760 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

Thanks planeofthepast for posting this, it is a fascinating topic, and answered a question I have had for years. Flying in an out of DFW, I often saw the north end of 17/35 and wondered what it was.


Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

GSW is nothing compared to this International Airport...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BsFQAAblL8


User currently offlineKGRB From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 687 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2153 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 12):
I doubt the number of nonstop destinations from CLE today is that much different from the number in 2000. Maybe 30 fewer destinations, tops, but I wouldn't consider losing nonstops to GRB, FWA, and the like as meaningful indicators of the "fall" of a great "international" hub.

Not to take away from your point, but GRB actually does have CLE service. While it was cut in 2008, CO reinstated the route in 2010 and UA continues to run it, 2x daily on the ERJ-145.



Δ D E L T A: Keep Climbing
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5429 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2153 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 12):
What airports that have lost a hub have seen comparable service from a replacement airline?

BWI?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
25 FWAERJ : Thanks to WN, BWI is one. BNA and RDU, both former AA hubs, have also seen very high levels of WN service to fill the void after AA's mid-1990s dehub
26 ScottB : And, to be honest, the siting and design of GSW were intentional snubs to Dallas, with the airport being entirely (or very nearly so) in Tarrant Coun
27 Darksnowynight : The county line is on property, but it is indeed very far east of the terminals; they are all solidly w/in Tarrant county, as well as every cargo ram
28 neveragain : One could argue that. But I would argue that BWI's trajectory as a PHL-type operation, or BNA's or RDU's trajectory as a domestic connecting hub is m
29 Post contains links LoneStarMike : There was another site featuring old terminals that has since archived, but you can still access the site through the internet archives aka The Waybac
30 incitatus : YMX is a monument to human stupidity.
31 Post contains links zrs70 : If I recall, CO had 757's to LHR from CLE. JAT also had charter flights to CLE: JAT In Cleveland (by DIA77 Sep 11 2000 in Civil Aviation)
32 neveragain : And CDG as well, although (IIRC) not at the same time as LHR. But 2 (or 3 routes, stretching back to the 1980s) does not constitute a "large network
33 FWAERJ : I think for one season when CO was still in SkyTeam, CO flew to LGW (not LHR, as US/EU Open Skies wasn't in effect yet) and CDG, codesharing with AF
34 neveragain : According to OAG: LGW operated from summer 1999 to September 2001, April 2002 to September 2003, when it became seasonal (May to September) in 2004-2
35 Viscount724 : If you follow that runway remnant to the south you'll find it becomes Amon Carter Blvd., and passes AA's headquarters after half a mile or so.
36 neveragain : While I'm at it: In 2000, CLE had nonstop service on CO and affiliates to 90 destinations. In 2012, this number (on UA and affiliates) had decreased t
37 type-rated : Back around 1972 or so you'd see DL and AA planes practicing touch & go's right across the street if you were standing in the main entrance to AA'
38 FWAERJ : SBN was also dropped from CLE earlier this year.
39 neveragain : That they did. But Peak nonstop destinations was 98, so there are at least 33 destinations to which service has ended, but there may be more as it is
40 CIDFlyer : Can't believe no one has mentioned Denver's Stapleton Airport. I think its now the site of an outdoor mall now.
41 type-rated : I always liked Stapleton. It's hard to believe it's gone. But it was a rabbit's warren of hallways and different design styles, evidence of additions
42 737tdi : I noticed that our airline historian Brian Lusk has a few pics. on this site. Very cool. Such a sad thing for an airport terminal to be destroyed in
43 Antoniemey : BNA? Though, rumor has it that CLE-BNA service will resume in a couple of months.
44 neveragain : You are correct, sir. The 2013 should be 2012.
45 tharanga : Fascinating read. People actually flew local, DAL-GSW, for a shopping trip. wow. I agree with this - this discussion on an interesting case, GSW, is
46 B757forever : Thanks for posting! I grew up in Fort Worth and remember going to a Confederate Air Force air show held at GSW in the late 60's. I recall walking arou
47 lightsaber : Not stimulating business growth. That is what produces high yield traffic. The reality is that Pittsburgh is not as business friendly as it once was.
48 neveragain : You may have that perception, but it's not really true. If that were the case, I'm sure you would agree the DTW hub would have been shut down. The un
49 B777LRF : Lost of talk here of never-heard-of airports of little or no historic relevance or interest. Now for something of real interest, I offer you Berlin Te
50 legion242 : What is the status of FTW? Just GA or anything else out there these days? Is the old AA hangar still there?
51 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Why? New industries promote travel (e.g., bankers and lawyers flying in to do deals). Some cities have more job growth than others. I didn't say unem
52 B757forever : FTW is primarily GA with a lot of corporate activity. I stopped by there a few months ago and looked at the old AA hangar, a beautiful structure with
53 Polot : I think you mean Tempelhof. Tegel is still a functioning airport (until it is replaced by BER).
54 JaxMan19 : JAX should be added to that list right??
55 Post contains links neveragain : Because there are plenty of exceptions. San Francisco, Chicago, and arguably New York are all thought of as not very "business friendly," yet there i
56 Post contains links and images lightsaber : The greater San Francisco region is actually very friendly to start ups. Chicago I'll skip commenting on as I do not know enough, but New York is a c
57 Post contains images neveragain : OOPS, those are originating percentages, not connecting percentages. Now I get to apologize for mistyping. I wonder how many new nonstop markets B6 a
58 Post contains links izbtmnhd : CLE O&D stood at 72% last year. Here's the link: http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...leveland-Ohios-Airport-System-Revs That's not the UA hub p
59 Post contains images lightsaber : Ah, now I understand. I merely wanted to point out its hub status. However, we have taken this thread off track and it is time to let it follow its n
60 Post contains links and images PITrules : CVG was much busier that PIT during their respective peaks, and CVG had a much better Europe service as well. It has since fallen more as well, in te
61 steeler83 : How about WN's Gary Kelly wanting to make PIT into a 60-70 daily flight focus city? Remember that? All the papers were suggesting that Kelly was plan
62 Post contains images neveragain : How about if you ask them to choose between WN and US's hub at PHL? Appreciate the historical perspective and the corrections. I was being too simpli
63 Post contains links PITrules : Perhaps they would chose US's PHL hub for it's international network, but this is such an apples and oranges comparison. PHL is twice the size of Bal
64 neveragain : Well if it had asbestos it wasn't going to be around for much longer. I'll have to do some research. The rejection came as surprise to ACAA. It wasn'
65 PITrules : The rejection was indeed a surprise to Allegheny Co. The eight months was to renegotiate the lease, which as we know was not done successfully. What
66 txjim : I toured the terminal and tower in 72 as a high-school project. The only traffic was an AA DC10 doing touch-and-gos but was more impressed by the Jef
67 neveragain : Probably a good amount of space was returned from day 1, correct? I'm not saying there wasn't internal debate within US but PIT could very well have
68 PITrules : During that 8 month period they leased all 50 gates. Afterward I'm not sure by what amounts they gave up when. It was a gradual reduction though. But
69 Post contains links neveragain : Good to know and file away, thanks. They're fairly low now because the hub closed. Here's why I disagree with you on the debt relief subsidy idea. Co
70 steeler83 : How do you come up with 3.5m for domestic O&D? The airport serves roughly 8 million people per year and has almost zero connecting traffic... And
71 neveragain : It's one-way. U.S. DoT measures all passenger statistics one-way. Divide by 2, you get 4m. There's still a little more than 10% connecting, which is
72 Post contains links PITrules : I don't see why airlines would lower fares in this scenario. They would pocket that $5, and that's the point - to increase their profit margin via lo
73 neveragain : OK so we're back to where we were before. Pittsburghers have 2 options: 1) Let the hub close and get lower fares, or 2) Pay taxes in return for highe
74 SA7700 : This thread will be locked as at has veered off-topic from a thread about GSW to a general thread about PIT, MEM, CLE, etc. Any posts added after the
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