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737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?  
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 924 posts, RR: 13
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7788 times:

I'm hearing rumours that WN has recently gotten on board with a more "787-esque" overhead panel design and possibly other ergonomic improvements. Has anyone "in the know" heard anything that supports this? All we've been hearing up until recently is that minimal/no improvements were being considered to keep design costs to a minimum. I'm hoping that has changed.


...from the Banana Republic....
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5164 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7822 times:

A friend of mine has been a 738 captain with AA for 3 years, having been and F/O and Captain on 757/767 for a total of 15 years. He has said that the overhead panel on the 737NG was more like that of the 727 (which he flew as F/E and F/O for 5 years) than the 757.

His understanding is that WN wanted all pilots to be checked out on the 737 Classic (-200, -300, and -500) and the 737NG (-700). Uncertain that the FAA would allow that with significantly different cockpits, WN (as a launch customer) got Boeing to install a panel that was similar to the 737 Classic.


User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7815 times:

I also know that the WN cockpits have their digital engine displays layed out on the MFD (or whatever Boeing calls their center engine display) in such a manner that they are in the same position as if they were on a 737 Classic, presumably for type rating purposes.

User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 924 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7805 times:

Ckfred,

Your friend is correct. But as stated, we're hearing rumours that very recently, that mentality wrt the MAX my have changed. All the press I can find on the subject states minimal changes planned - but I'm hoping that has changed as well.

[Edited 2012-11-06 13:22:42]


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6512 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7800 times:

I thought it wasn't about costs but rather commonality with older 737s ?


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User currently offlinePassedV1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7800 times:

The option is called "Dials On Glass" and saves a grand total of ZERO hours of training. Alaska pilots switch between dials and glass (777 esque, not the SWA/Old CAL kind) on a daily basis and the FAA gives you no credit for having the "Dials on Glass" option installed. This is definetly one of those situations that regulation is making flying less save. The NG shold have/could have had an overhead panel more like a 777 then a 727. I guess the FAA doesn't think that pilots can be counted on to adjust between pushing a button or flipping a switch. I hope this rumor is true.

User currently offlineCactus739 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2441 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7800 times:

So did anyone actually read the thread title?


You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 447 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7800 times:

Talking about improvements?? I get a feeling that the launch customer with big orders is the one who dictates, is it true??? Does that mean that WN will not change 737max cockpit???

Slightly off topic, is there a scientific evidence that crews can't fly uncommon cockpits, let's say 744 and 777 in same monthly schedule, or a 737 classic. efis, and ng???


User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 924 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7800 times:

Quoting capri (Reply 7):
Does that mean that WN will not change 737max cockpit???

Precisely why I raised the question in my OP. Rumour has it WN now WANTS the change - I'm looking confirmation.

Quoting capri (Reply 7):
Slightly off topic, is there a scientific evidence that crews can't fly uncommon cockpits, let's say 744 and 777 in same monthly schedule, or a 737 classic. efis, and ng???

Not for the 737 - at least at WN. I flew a 2 day trip (5 legs total) that started in an 800, and then proceeded to transition through the 300, 500 and 700.

[Edited 2012-11-06 16:52:12]


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1723 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7801 times:

I heard that the MAX was going to have the same cockpit as the NG. I imagine with some minor improvements such as ergonomics and a HUD.


Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7803 times:

Quoting capri (Reply 7):
Slightly off topic, is there a scientific evidence that crews can't fly uncommon cockpits, let's say 744 and 777 in same monthly schedule, or a 737 classic. efis, and ng???

Yes. If there weren't, common type rating wouldn't be nearly as big a deal as it is.

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 8):
Quoting capri (Reply 7):
Slightly off topic, is there a scientific evidence that crews can't fly uncommon cockpits, let's say 744 and 777 in same monthly schedule, or a 737 classic. efis, and ng???

Not for the 737 - at least at WN. I flew a 2 day trip (5 legs total) that started in an 800, and then proceeded to transition through the 300, 500 and 700.

But you were on WN models that all have the same display layout, right? You weren't switching between EFIS and PFD/ND systems, were you?

Tom.


User currently offlineaviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7801 times:

You want my recommendation for cockpit improvements:

How about a QWERTY-style keyboard on the ACARS and FMS interfaces. It's been how long, forty years?

Do you know how tedious it is typing out a message on a keyboard that is set up ABCDEF.... instead of the kind of keyboard people actually type on?

And while we're at it: how about a pen holder, a side-sill clipboard that you can actually use, and some decent sun visors.

it's the ergonomics, stupid!


PS



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7803 times:

Perhaps something could be applied that is cheaper to produce/install, cheaper to maintain, asthetically pleasing, but still maintain complete backwards compatability and common type rating. Afterall, not much was done to the overhead area after the eyebrow windows were removed.

Afterall, the 757/767 maintain common type ratings, but the cockpits are not absolute duplicates of one another.
1. I always found this page useful: http://www.757.org.uk/diff/index.html it shows the extent that the two planes differ from a handling perspective (ground & air), yet enjoy a common type rating.
2. Also, The overhead panel is slightly different in each. The air conditioning, hydraulic, and bleed air portions of the panels are slightly different. (credit to: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091125074158AADqOTB).
3. The B767-200s have a panel for Fuel Jettison. B757s don't. The B7672 has a very different maintenance panel (P61) than the B757. The Hydraulic control panel is a little different. Anti-Ice panel is different to allow an added system. (credit to: 767/757 Cockpit Differences (by Ups763 Sep 19 2002 in Tech Ops))
4. On the 757 you have hydraulic isolation switches for the 3 systems going to the tail but on the 767 you can isolate the wings aswell. There are 6 switches one for each system for the tail and one for each system going to the wings.
The squib test lights are different, there is two test switches and only the test switch one will light up the APU light because there is only one squib for the APU. (credit to: B757 & 767 Flight Deck Differences (by HAWK21M Aug 18 2006 in Tech Ops))
If you look at fotos of the overhead panel....they look quite different on many 757/767 planes, yet you still enjoy a common type rating.

So, perhaps there is room to take advantage of newer technology that might push the overhead panel up a critical inch or two to ease egress/ingress into the pilot seats, but still maintain identical operational characteristics? It might not be too far fetched of an idea that the overhead panel could be improved if it cuts costs and maintaince with out violating the type rating.



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User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1982 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7803 times:

Quoting aviateur (Reply 11):
And while we're at it: how about a pen holder, a side-sill clipboard that you can actually use, and some decent sun visors

Like the bus?   

The flight deck ergonomics of the 320 is simply just that much better. It's 30 years newer in design which isn't something you can blame the plane on but definitely shows.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 924 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7801 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 10):
But you were on WN models that all have the same display layout, right? You weren't switching between EFIS and PFD/ND systems, were you?

We "switch" from PFD/ND displays to the classic round dials yes. Almost an everyday occurrence.

[Edited 2012-11-07 02:42:40]


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2061 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7800 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
and a HUD.

Good pull. The HUD have been designed and implemented on the P-8A. It would not cost too much to get it on the MAX if pilots and airlines clamor for them.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinespeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7800 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
and a HUD.

Are you referring to a different HUD than is installed on the -800?



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User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7802 times:

Quoting aviateur (Reply 11):
How about a QWERTY-style keyboard on the ACARS and FMS interfaces. It's been how long, forty years?

The A380 and 787 don't even have that (and not for technology limitations)...ain't gonna happen on a 737.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 11):
And while we're at it: how about a pen holder, a side-sill clipboard that you can actually use, and some decent sun visors.

It's already got pen holders. A side-sill clip in the 737 cockpit is going to be tricky...the 777 and 787 ones are great. As for sun visors, Boeing continues the proud tradition of providing them through Jeppesen.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 11):
it's the ergonomics, stupid!

Pilot ergonomics don't show up in CASM therefore airlines don't actually care.

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 12):
So, perhaps there is room to take advantage of newer technology that might push the overhead panel up a critical inch or two to ease egress/ingress into the pilot seats, but still maintain identical operational characteristics?

It's certainly technically possible, although physically moving the panel would bring in a host of new certification testing. It's would be a lot simpler to change the under-the-hood parts but keep the human-machine interface constant.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 15):
Good pull. The HUD have been designed and implemented on the P-8A. It would not cost too much to get it on the MAX if pilots and airlines clamor for them.

What am I missing? The commercial 737 has had a HUD (as an option) for years now.

Tom.


User currently offlinedavidkunzVIE From Austria, joined Mar 2007, 431 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7803 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
The A380 and 787 don't even have that

The A380 certainly does:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufth...d=ce48c6b9278d751afaa03366600f7cc0



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User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7803 times:

As someone "in the know" on the subject, I can confirm the following:

a) Southwest *IS* pushing Boeing to do more with the 737MAX to take it away from the "dumb" NG to a "smart" MAX, similar in capabilities to Airbus aircraft. This is not opinion, these are the actual quotes.

b) Boeing *IS* listening.



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User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7803 times:

Quoting davidkunzVIE (Reply 18):

The picture you have linked shows is an external QWERTY keyboard, similar to what can be plugged into Boeing models. What Tom was refering to was the CDU on the aisle stand (behind the keyboard in your photo), which has an ABCDEF keyboard on all aircraft I am aware of.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2061 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7798 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
What am I missing? The commercial 737 has had a HUD (as an option) for years now.

Missing is my update knowledge of a commercial 737 cockpit 

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7798 times:

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 12):
So, perhaps there is room to take advantage of newer technology that might push the overhead panel up a critical inch or two to ease egress/ingress into the pilot seats, but still maintain identical operational characteristics? It might not be too far fetched of an idea that the overhead panel could be improved if it cuts costs and maintaince with out violating the type rating.

I think the 727 and 737 overhead heights came from the 707-135ish era. While putting on power in the KC-135 yesterday I bumped my head into the overhead panel and nearly knocked myself out. It's VERY low


User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 924 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7795 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
What am I missing? The commercial 737 has had a HUD (as an option) for years now.

Exactly. Even our 300/500's have had them since the mid 90's.



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 924 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7795 times:

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 19):
As someone "in the know" on the subject, I can confirm the following:

a) Southwest *IS* pushing Boeing to do more with the 737MAX to take it away from the "dumb" NG to a "smart" MAX, similar in capabilities to Airbus aircraft. This is not opinion, these are the actual quotes.

b) Boeing *IS* listening.

This is great to read - but just to be clear, you're referring to the cockpit correct?



...from the Banana Republic....
25 Post contains links and images chrisair : WN switched from the "dials on glass" display to the standard NG displays a while ago. View Large View MediumPhoto © Kevin Boydston Here's the old l
26 starrymarkb : If you look closely at the keyboard on the pedestal you'll see it is also qwerty... IIRC the MDCU is controlled through those while the table keyboar
27 odwyerpw : Needs a Macadamia Nut receptacle.
28 tdscanuck : Like CM said, I was referring to the CDU keyboard. You can plug a QWERTY external keyboard into a 787 too. However, as starrymarkb noted, the A380 CD
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