After ordering almost 20 each 333 and 77W, TK is on the expansion road again.
Seriously, CCS, BOS and YUL were expected, but....
MEX, hot and heavy
SFO and HAV are too small of markets maybe.
If TK will actually fly to these cities, anything is possible then. Las Vegas, Puerto Rico, any others???
SCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 461 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1413 times:
I am not surprised by MEX (can they fly non-stop ??) or SFO (which by no means is a small market) but I am certainly surprised about HAV (???)
According to the Cuban government, http://www.one.cu/publicaciones/06tu.../llegadadevisitantes/mensual/2.pdf , Russia is the 7th country that sends more visitors to Cuba (63k Jan-Sep '12), yet Aeroflot flies to SVO. By looking at the list of countries, I can't think of any other for whom IST is a logical connection (and even Moscow-Havana via IST is already a nice detour).
Avianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5857 posts, RR: 40 Reply 5, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1411 times:
Quoting TK787 (Thread starter): -Late tonight TK announced plans to fly to following cities depending on aircraft availability, bilaterals;
CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO and YUL
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1): CCS, and especially HAV are out in left field too me.
well even their should be a market in CCS, specially with many passengers to MidEast, but still I doubt it.
Anyhow may it be considence but I am right now planing a trip to IST from CCS
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15733 posts, RR: 48 Reply 6, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1414 times:
Quoting TK787 (Thread starter): -Late tonight TK announced plans to fly to following cities depending on aircraft availability, bilaterals;
CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO and YUL
Now they're just making stuff up. Not that NKCIST was based on any data . TK needs to stop. Just stop. Fix your network; you have so much going for you but you're going to lose whatever remaining control you may have. And once that's done, then grow again.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 22057 posts, RR: 51 Reply 7, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1406 times:
YUL service will be at the mercy of Canadians allowing a 2nd service point and added frequencies. TK has yet to be able to turn YYZ daily even.
SFO - smaller local market then LAX certainly, but could work by relying on IST hub for broad feed.
BOS - has been kicked around for 2-3 years now. There is good flow of traffic to/from Turkey especially educational, tech and medical most that moves via European on carriers like LH/LX. Add in benefits of IST hub could be a good spoke on the A330.
HAV - Cuba becoming ever more popular tourist market. A few days per week might work.
MEX - One of the world largest capital cities. But virtually zero local traffic demand. Not sure about what beyond markets that can successfully sell via IST.
CCS - I guess they are looking at the strong load demand current few European carriers experience at CCS.
=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
SonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1177 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1403 times:
Most of these routes will require a 77W for the range. What is their schedule for receiving new 77W's?
yellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5164 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1404 times:
They said nothing about these being non-stop.....perhaps it will be IST-HAV-MEX ..HAV-MEX is not a small market if they can get the traffic rights....
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15733 posts, RR: 48 Reply 13, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1407 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7): SFO - smaller local market then LAX certainly, but could work by relying on IST hub for broad feed.
BOS - has been kicked around for 2-3 years now. There is good flow of traffic to/from Turkey especially educational, tech and medical most that moves via European on carriers like LH/LX. Add in benefits of IST hub could be a good spoke on the A330.
None of their US services are particularly full, and it's anecdotal of course but I fly them a couple times/year up front and they're never full, their Economy Comfort product clearly didn't make the cut, and IST is just becoming increasingly overcrowded. What was once a tremendous lounge is now a zoo with good food.
Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 12): I also take it IAH is still on schedule to start on 01Apr13?
mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31118 posts, RR: 73 Reply 14, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1406 times:
Quoting TK787 (Reply 10): BOS, YUL will be 333.
77Ws arriving 3 in 2014, 7 in 2015, 6 in 2016 and onward....
"Will be?"
It's yet another laundry list of destinations, most of which won't happen anytime soon. Heck, TK can't even get EZE off the ground and the GRU schedule was modified to accomodate it!
I'll believe it when I see it. It's growth has been amazing and impressive, but about the only thing TK actually kept their word on was Houston.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7348 posts, RR: 7 Reply 16, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1408 times:
How are Havana and Caracas going to work from Istanbul ? Mexico, SFO and Bosotn can work but Havana really. Does this show Turkish Airlines is just desperate to expand any where ?
Avianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5857 posts, RR: 40 Reply 17, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1405 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16): How are Havana and Caracas going to work from Istanbul ? Mexico, SFO and Bosotn can work but Havana really. Does this show Turkish Airlines is just desperate to expand any where ?
Venezuela - has a big MidEast community, specially from Libanon, but also Palestina, Jordania, Syria etc.
Also the loads to China, India are increasing a lot, fares are high yield.
As before mentioned I still doubt it but for sure not impossible.
chrisnh From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3807 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1395 times:
This region is not at all served to or from Boston, so there might be a 'gold-rush' of sorts to see who gets there first. Qatar has also said 'Boston' without being specific; Turkish now makes two such overtures. For their part, Emirates has said NOTHING about Boston and it wouldn't surprise me if they trumped the other two.
bobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1364 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1396 times:
Anyone think there is starting to be too much capacity to the Middle East ? EK QR TK and Ethiad flying to many of the same places seems a bit much. Can YUL really support QR and TK?
It's also interesting that KU never saw the potential that QR and EK saw. LY will only be a niche carrier and SV will never be what the others are because no one want to transit in Saudi Arabia
jmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3162 posts, RR: 17 Reply 21, posted (6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1390 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7): HAV - Cuba becoming ever more popular tourist market. A few days per week might work.
MEX - One of the world largest capital cities. But virtually zero local traffic demand. Not sure about what beyond markets that can successfully sell via IST.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7): Mexico City's altitude will be a problem, even for the mighty 777....
Couldn't MEX simply be a tag on IST-HAV? That would basically eliminate all the issues mentioned,
ElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 620 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1397 times:
YUL = brilliant. That would make me extremely happy. But...
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7): YUL service will be at the mercy of Canadians allowing a 2nd service point and added frequencies. TK has yet to be able to turn YYZ daily even.
I read elsewhere that TK is going daily to YYZ from end 2012/early 2013. Took 3 years to get daily. Might take another 3 years to get into YUL. And six before they're daily. If we're lucky.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13): What was once a tremendous lounge is now a zoo with good food.
As opposed to the Spartan, empty and not particularly comfortable lounges in N. America, with token food, and the occassional drink (sometimes by vouchter?) Thanks, but no thanks. I don't sleep at lounges so a zoo with good food sounds far more preferable than, say, the Maple Leaf Lounge at YOW, which I give a miss despite having the loyalty points - its nicely appointed, empty and generally very healthy by virtue of having precious little food.
Yes, it can. TK is well placed to serve the large Lebanese/ME population (better than QR, geographically). Besides, they can offer lower prices than the EU carriers, what with not being subjected to spurious taxes, and I expect they won't have trouble taking pax off the Euro carriers, AF being the main exception because of the large O&D market between YUL and CDG.
SCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 461 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1393 times:
Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 21): Couldn't MEX simply be a tag on IST-HAV? That would basically eliminate all the issues mentioned
That could certainly make a lot of sense, they would avoid the issues with the non-stop to MEX and the issues when transiting in the US. IST-HAV-MEX is not a big detour either... and TK has a few tags in Asia, so nothing new here.
migair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1279 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1398 times:
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 23): That could certainly make a lot of sense, they would avoid the issues with the non-stop to MEX and the issues when transiting in the US. IST-HAV-MEX is not a big detour either... and TK has a few tags in Asia, so nothing new here.
Actually it might work doing like IST-MEX-HAV-IST, so taking off from MEX with fuel for 3-4 hours only so they can maximize the payload...
If they fly to HAV is to have some russian market and also chinese, It might work like 3 days a week but i don´t think they will have the big yields to justify a direct flight to HAV, even AF, IB, they use very low F/J density planes for this destination.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7): HAV - Cuba becoming ever more popular tourist market. A few days per week might work.
It has always been a bit market mainly for Europeans and Canadians but nothing specially good in revenue, cargo could be OK as well specially from South East Asia and China, but I still don´t think this will work.
25 bobloblaw: That's a good point, I never thought of. EU taxes are killing the ability of EU carriers to carry traffic from the western hemisphere to ME, South As
26 neveragain: Why do you think that is? It's bizarre to me (absent a pending comprehensive UA codeshare deal), and it's a market that is already highly competitive
27 lightsaber: I love how TK announces more and more routes... that sometimes happen. When tickets are on sale *and* we're within 30 days of launch... I'll believe i
28 as739x: SFO Finally! How is SFO a small market? Metro population of over 7 million (7.2) and number (1) medium incomes in the US. SFO has a large UA feed and
29 neveragain: Immaterial if there is no codeshare.
30 EddieDude: Well that depends on the bilaterals. If 5th freedom rights are not available, I don't think they will be easy to secure. MEX-IST is shorter than othe
31 g500: My guess, it MEX ever lands A Middle Eastern or Asian carrier, or in this case, Turkish Airlines, it will have to be with a stop somewhere. with MEX's
32 SCQ83: I would say that for a carrier like Emirates, which seems to have a very logical growth strategy. This is not the case for TK... it looks that their
33 EddieDude: As we have established, MEX-IST is much shorter than other 77W routes, and is helped by tailwinds. Penalties may not be necessary at all. Additionall
34 Turkish350XWB: uuuuh, this is a tough statement. we had a discussion a few days ago in one thread and at the end it got deleted... actually it was decided that TK i
35 SCQ83: I was not trying to create any controversy, so I didn't expect anyone to reaffirm the Europeness of their country/airline, when I think it is very cl
36 Turkish350XWB: Well, now you made it clear. Plus eastern europe where the MEB are quite weak. But i also heard of cases that people travel from central europe to no
37 radiopolitic: What are the routes that were announced and never followed up on?
38 as739x: Both members of Star last I checked. I believe a matter of time.[Edited 2012-11-10 13:49:24]
39 MeCe: At current week almost all of US flights have more than % 80 load, mostly over 90.If you are not happy with this loads I cant tell anymore, and we ar
40 neveragain: AS739x, as I stated when you claimed SFO-IST would be a success by the same logic, it's only relevant if they have a codeshare. I know ex-UA had a co
41 jporterfi: Wasn't there a thread a few weeks ago citing a link that mentioned that TK was thinking about starting ATL? Is that still possible (maybe with a 787)?
42 Turkish350XWB: If UA is not willing of codesharing with TK, why don't they collaborate with other us airlines? jetblue is a beginning, maybe AA is possible, why not.
43 Tupolev160: In short, TK looks (or wants to look) like EK and QR just without the brains. Their network (over-)expansion is absurd, unsustainable and reminds me o
44 MaverickM11: I'd argue it's the opposite, although TK's expansion needs to be tempered so it doesn't lose control of the product. Turkey actually has a huge local
45 lightsaber: As already noted, it is the geographic competition TK would compete with. EZE http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=271203
46 SCQ83: I think that TK's expansion does not make much sense. They seem to be obsessed with the number of destinations (just see their commercials with the l
47 Turkish350XWB: I do think similar. But they are also densifying their old routes. To the biggest airports they have 3-4 daily flights. The first bank of flights to
48 abrelosojos: How awesome! I can officially replace LH as my airline . Let's see how this all plays out. Saludos, A.
49 TK787: You could be correct. My initial reaction TK might not be able to fill both LAX and SFO. But I have been terrible at predicting TK performance in the
50 neveragain: So they're obsessed with the number of destinations, yet you chide them for not noting the number of nonstop destinations? Besides, I'd say this is a
51 MaverickM11: I think that's EK's weakness and TK's strength. TK isn't going after MAD BKK all day every day, but rather MAD GYD as you mentioned, or DUS TAS, or B
52 lightsaber: EK used to open routes with 3 or 4 weekly flights. EK simply has the hub network to 'go big' at a launch. EK is also eating some costs during initial
53 ju068: Just out of curiosity, could Turkish Airlines operate Istanbul-Miami-Havana? (without traffic rights MIA-HAV) I know that there have been quite a lot
54 neveragain: What? You'll have to help me with this one, too.
55 SCQ83: I completely agree; there are two models that can be complementary. However, on the long term, I think EK's model is more successful. Because the mor
56 lightsaber: Mis-type on my part. EK will return to launching new cities with less than daily frequency. I needed more sleep and really botched that post. Lightsa
57 Tupolev160: Many staff in IST can't even speak English, on places such as exchange-office, i was shocked.
58 leftyboarder: And EK's order for dozens of A380s or opening up destinations where nobody has heard of Dubai is not? You seem to have a bit of a chip on your should
59 2travel2know2: It seems TK wants to be 1st in some markets before EK/EH/QR get there. As an Star Alliance airline, TK may already have worked a deal with AV when it
60 Avianca: yes PTY would be much better for connecting traffic! but I am sure they are looking not only feed in the destination also in IST and than with 2 stop
61 A388: Indeed wow, how on earth can TK make CCS work? If the Middle Eastern population in Venezuela really was that big, why have all other attempts on such
62 TK787: Seriously! Sometimes we can be too judgmental about these TK route news. But who would have thought TK would be flying non-stop 77W to LAX daily 5 ye
63 A388: I can see why the LAX market works and JFK because these markets are big but CCS? I do agree with you on this though. It's always nice to your own ai
64 2travel2know2: IST - CCS/MEX/HAV O/D must be quite small. IST TK hub - CCS/MEX/HAV O/D may be something, but still doesn't seem to be that large. However, I must re
65 orl777: CCS can perfectly work for TK, Remember that Venezuelan likes to travel a lot, so we have almost all flight full every day, we have a lack of seat an
66 B747forever: Isnt there even talks about going double daily to LAX?
67 TK787: Rumors, but I don't know where the metal will come from. TK ordered 77Ws will start arriving 2014.
68 A388: Same here, any airline is welcome for me too. I can see the value of TK going to Asia and maybe the Middle East (if there indeed is sufficient demand
69 orl777: yes, try to find tickets for the high season, you need to book by 8 or 9 months before travel and all the time the prices are high, for example for m
70 SCQ83: Direct flights tend to be more expensive. In this particular case, many people wouldn't be able to/wouldn't like to transit through the US. So you se
71 ASA: It is indeed very out-of-the-box ... and could really work if done right. Kudos! I just searched for the middle eastern population diaspora ... and w
72 A388: So TK also sees high fares when they start CCS flights. Do European carriers have the same problem with expanding to/from Venezuela as the U.S. carri
73 2travel2know2: Some line of thinking the other "relatively big" airline in the area - and also an Star Alliance one - MS is light-years away.
74 ASA: while we are in rumor mode ... TK could operate HAV and MEX in a tag-on as some suggested earlier ... will take care of issues of lift and payload at
75 A388: What will be taken care off in BOG? The aircraft can't take off from BOG at full payload so they will lose out there. A388
76 ASA: Not even with just enough fuel to reach CCS ? That's way less payload. Pls correct me if I'm wrong. I actually meant a BOG-CCS-IST routing. So the ai
77 SQSFO: SFO could work if the flights connect well to the middle east and Indian subcontinent flights! Turkish can offer some great connections, to cities lik
78 EddieDude: I agree. IST-MEX from a purely O&D perspective is a bad proposition. There are no meaningful diplomatic or economic ties between the two countrie
79 AA767LOVER: Hey I wonder why CUBANA stopped their IL-96 to SVO. . . would it work better to DME?
80 LLA001: maybe TK needs 77L for these routes, good long range and not so dense as 77W it is good to see these new routes but Ataturk airport is already too cr
81 leftyboarder: Maybe they will try to increase utilization or overnight at outposts even more?
82 C010T3: Good news for TK in the Southern Cone. Turkish applied yesterday for a modification in its HOTRAN ("transportation hours" - direct translation) before
83 Turkish350XWB: This schedule has good connectivity for Middle-East and Far-East flights and mean decoupling from the common Americas schedule.
84 Nostrum: On TK's official Facebook page they posted the following message last Sunday: News of the day! Turkish Airlines added 6 new destinations. Based on air
85 neveragain: I understand the requirement for operating authorities (especially with YUL), but why would this be in question? TK doesn't know how many aircraft it
86 TK787: Besides planned jet arrivals, TK grabs planes in the lease market when it makes sense. That was how Jet 77Ws came to TK, and convinced TK to purchase
87 neveragain: So, instead of It's rather "If we get some cheap aircraft, we'll fly to Caracas"?
88 leftyboarder: More like, "If - after we have determined the frequencies that we fly to current destinations and the aircraft we use on them, and as a result, know
89 A388: Okay, now I see what you mean. If they fly IST-BOG-CCS than they can make it to CCS with a full payload and refuel in CCS for the onward flight back
90 neveragain: Which is what I said in the first place. So not much of a commitment. Still interested as to why people think IAH made the cut when so many others to
91 leftyboarder: Because, that one was not part of a stock market announcement of intended destinations, but an official route announcement with actual schedule info
92 TK787: Besides EZE, ATL what other cities you are referring to?
93 neveragain: EZE, ATL, BOS, DTW, and MIA I guess BOS is still on the list, though Lightsaber posted above: http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...ouston-and-poten
94 leftyboarder: Those were never on the TK website. Only newspaper reports. BOS is indeed newly announced.
95 LAXintl: I think a few posters here are getting these announcements confused for what they are not. Under Turkish stock market regulations, TK must notify the
96 neveragain: Thank you for the explanation. What's the required timeframe for these announcements? Houston was announced on the website to this regard on April 30
97 ASA: I just re-read the link ... it said "The airline has also indicated it will commence services to Miami, Boston, Detroit and Atlanta as part of its ne
98 LAXintl: Also guys, don't forget TK CEO was also quoted last month stating besides new markets, another goal is to increase frequency on current longhaul route
99 wingedtaurus: I think MEX is the strongest candidate. It is very similar to GRU who is making a good run. With GRU and MEX they have the two biggest LATAM cities an
100 Turkish350XWB: Do you mean the LF on that route ?
101 neveragain: I'm aware of this. But we seem to be creating "classes" of announcements: (1) Those cities for which TK management has stated publicly, in one way, s
102 leftyboarder: Stock market filings are required as the company will be doing some form of internal study about opening the line following this filing and they need
103 neveragain: What other airlines operate that way though? QR perhaps. Maybe that's the point. It may just be a reflection of unique Turkish securities law.[Edited
104 XA744: Nah, I don't think so...kindly, allow me to explain: I know, I have been away from the industry, already 12 years, but believe things have not change
105 Tupolev160: I wonder why QR/EK never tried to link IAH and MEX, that route would definitely make sense to exist.
106 miaintl: Is TK still interested in flying to MIA? I think MIA is a much more feasible destination than HAV since it is much more premium-oriented. That being s
107 EddieDude: Because there is no way they would get fifth-freedom rights for the IAH-MEX-IAH sectors.
108 chrisnh: The most silent of these carriers has been Emirates, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them in Boston before the other two.
109 miaintl: I recently heard that TK will be announcing MIA service for next year and that miami will be its next destinations.
110 Avianca: interesting that everybody means that it would be such an exotic flight. following arguments are more than correct. well the estimated population in
111 miaintl: Miami would see service from TK way before CCS will. Their is much more premium traffic to Turkey, the Middle East and elsewhere from Miami. Miami ha
112 Avianca: well I have no problems with your wish that MIA should get first TK service, but finally it decides TK or? I am just courious to know on what are you
113 miaintl: MIA does not have more connections to Europe than CCS with the exceptions of BA and LX maybe. Plus IST is not based on Europe connections but to conn
114 leftyboarder: One can never know for sure of course, but no announcements whatsoever regarding MIA so far might mean otherwise.
115 miaintl: An announcement was made back in July. That is pretty recent to me, plus i find it hard to believe that HAV will see TK service before MIA.
116 leftyboarder: Where was this made? TK website has no such announcement for July. Please read LAXIntl's reply 95 or my reply 102. Only official announcements carry
117 LX138: HAV would be very strange. Someone said there could be feed from China onto that flight. Who an earth from China would be going to HAV?! There's no fe
118 EddieDude: Yes, serving European travelers would be backtracking, especially when there are plenty of connections via YYZ, IAD, JFK, ATL, EWR, CLT, IAH, DFW, MI
120 Tupolev160: Found CCS-PEK round-trip for around 1800 USD via Miami and Seattle in January. Not that bad you would say. I doubt TK can do better. I really see no p
121 Avianca: I am litte bit wondering based on what you are making your posts comments? just gut feeling? well here we go if my calculation is correct MIA has thi
122 wingedtaurus: I think there is room in MEX for either TK/EK/QR or EY whoever gets first. The way I see it is not only in terms of Turkey but in connections to the
123 leftyboarder: 72.5 is the LF for IST-GRU. This is 8 pts higher than last year.
124 Nostrum: HAV supports 10x weekly AF 77W, year-round KL service to AMS and 6x SU year-round service. KL and SU fly seasonal to MIA and AF can't even support a
125 EddieDude: Don't get me wrong. I agree with you on several points. See below: I want to be optimistic about this, but I think it is not as easy as it sounds. As
126 Viscount724: No Schengen transit visa needed assuming the passenger is connecting the same day.
127 miaintl: MIA-CDG is daily in the summer, so that 6xweekly schedule is only for the winter months. Are you sure SU is only seasonal?[Edited 2012-11-15 16:30:21]
128 A388: I'm not so sure about that. In any case, MIA is much more important for these airlines than HAV is. HAV is a purely leisure destination, if demand dr
129 Argentina: EZE finally joins TK list of destinations effective 11DEC2012 From airlineroute.net Turkish Airlines to Start Buenos Aires Operation from Dec 2012 Upd
130 A388: Wow, a new destination starting service before all the other ones in this thread. Why is EZE started and CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO, YUL have not? Do th
131 airbazar: Because they've been working on starting EZE for 2 years now.
132 Turkish350XWB: Because it is a tag-on to the GRU flight and no extra frame is needed for this, just adjustment of the flight schedule. GRU looses its connectivity t
133 LAXintl: Because they have have been working to launch EZE for almost 2-years now. As reference they made their required Istanbul Stock Exchange notification
134 A388: I see, thanks. So this route was announced two years ago. In other words, long overdue but finally happening. Let's see how long it will take for the
135 LAXintl: Yes took a while to sort things out with Argentina. Even though the first bilateral between the nations was signed in 2005, took over 1-year to receiv
136 C010T3: Well, I don't think the whole problem lies on Argentina. I don't think it's a coincidence that the flight is being launched only one month in advance
137 ACT7: I see QR and TK surviving, but I don't see RJ doing very well if TK secures YUL. They've had 2 frequencies a week since they started so there must be
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