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TK To CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO, YUL  
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4464 posts, RR: 12
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2855 times:

Thanks to Stylo777 from the Turkish Aviation thread;

-Late tonight TK announced plans to fly to following cities depending on aircraft availability, bilaterals;
CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO and YUL

http://www.airkule.com/default.asp?page=haber&id=13022 (Turkish only)

Wow and more Wow;

After ordering almost 20 each 333 and 77W, TK is on the expansion road again.
Seriously, CCS, BOS and YUL were expected, but....
MEX, hot and heavy
SFO and HAV are too small of markets maybe.

If TK will actually fly to these cities, anything is possible then. Las Vegas, Puerto Rico, any others???

137 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2342 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2896 times:

I see SFO and YUL being very good for TK. MEX is possible but as the OP said, hot and high. CCS, and especially HAV are out in left field too me.


Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

They will fly to those cities just like they have been announcing they would fly to EZE.

User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2888 times:

I am not surprised by MEX (can they fly non-stop ??) or SFO (which by no means is a small market) but I am certainly surprised about HAV (???)

According to the Cuban government, http://www.one.cu/publicaciones/06tu.../llegadadevisitantes/mensual/2.pdf , Russia is the 7th country that sends more visitors to Cuba (63k Jan-Sep '12), yet Aeroflot flies to SVO. By looking at the list of countries, I can't think of any other for whom IST is a logical connection (and even Moscow-Havana via IST is already a nice detour).


User currently offlinealphaomega From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 581 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2884 times:

They haven't applied for landing rights in BOS yet so I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2885 times:

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
-Late tonight TK announced plans to fly to following cities depending on aircraft availability, bilaterals;
CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO and YUL
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):
CCS, and especially HAV are out in left field too me.

well even their should be a market in CCS, specially with many passengers to MidEast, but still I doubt it.
Anyhow may it be considence but I am right now planing a trip to IST from CCS  

cheers
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2888 times:

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
-Late tonight TK announced plans to fly to following cities depending on aircraft availability, bilaterals;
CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO and YUL

Now they're just making stuff up. Not that NKCIST was based on any data . TK needs to stop. Just stop. Fix your network; you have so much going for you but you're going to lose whatever remaining control you may have. And once that's done, then grow again.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

YUL service will be at the mercy of Canadians allowing a 2nd service point and added frequencies. TK has yet to be able to turn YYZ daily even.

SFO - smaller local market then LAX certainly, but could work by relying on IST hub for broad feed.

BOS - has been kicked around for 2-3 years now. There is good flow of traffic to/from Turkey especially educational, tech and medical most that moves via European on carriers like LH/LX. Add in benefits of IST hub could be a good spoke on the A330.

HAV - Cuba becoming ever more popular tourist market. A few days per week might work.

MEX - One of the world largest capital cities. But virtually zero local traffic demand. Not sure about what beyond markets that can successfully sell via IST.

CCS - I guess they are looking at the strong load demand current few European carriers experience at CCS.

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2880 times:
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Mexico City's altitude will be a problem, even for the mighty 777....

Isn't that has discouraged Emirates so far?


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2877 times:
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Most of these routes will require a 77W for the range. What is their schedule for receiving new 77W's?

User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4464 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
Most of these routes will require a 77W for the range. What is their schedule for receiving new 77W's?

BOS, YUL will be 333.
77Ws arriving 3 in 2014, 7 in 2015, 6 in 2016 and onward....


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6303 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

They said nothing about these being non-stop.....perhaps it will be IST-HAV-MEX ..HAV-MEX is not a small market if they can get the traffic rights....


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineaznmadsci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3699 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2877 times:

When do they plan on serving these cities?

I also take it IAH is still on schedule to start on 01Apr13?



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
SFO - smaller local market then LAX certainly, but could work by relying on IST hub for broad feed.

BOS - has been kicked around for 2-3 years now. There is good flow of traffic to/from Turkey especially educational, tech and medical most that moves via European on carriers like LH/LX. Add in benefits of IST hub could be a good spoke on the A330.

None of their US services are particularly full, and it's anecdotal of course but I fly them a couple times/year up front and they're never full, their Economy Comfort product clearly didn't make the cut, and IST is just becoming increasingly overcrowded. What was once a tremendous lounge is now a zoo with good food.

Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 12):
I also take it IAH is still on schedule to start on 01Apr13?

Yes. That's real and for sale .



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33194 posts, RR: 71
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2880 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 10):
BOS, YUL will be 333.
77Ws arriving 3 in 2014, 7 in 2015, 6 in 2016 and onward....

"Will be?"

It's yet another laundry list of destinations, most of which won't happen anytime soon. Heck, TK can't even get EZE off the ground and the GRU schedule was modified to accomodate it!

I'll believe it when I see it. It's growth has been amazing and impressive, but about the only thing TK actually kept their word on was Houston.



a.
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7336 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

If so it opens up a few more options to travel on a preferred airline of mine and still have lounge access. I'd love to head back to Havana

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8457 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2882 times:
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How are Havana and Caracas going to work from Istanbul ? Mexico, SFO and Bosotn can work but Havana really. Does this show Turkish Airlines is just desperate to expand any where ?

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
How are Havana and Caracas going to work from Istanbul ? Mexico, SFO and Bosotn can work but Havana really. Does this show Turkish Airlines is just desperate to expand any where ?

Venezuela - has a big MidEast community, specially from Libanon, but also Palestina, Jordania, Syria etc.

Also the loads to China, India are increasing a lot, fares are high yield.
As before mentioned I still doubt it but for sure not impossible.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2171 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2867 times:

Is TK making any money with all this expansion or are they just expanding expanding expanding?

User currently offlinechrisnh From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4149 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2869 times:

This region is not at all served to or from Boston, so there might be a 'gold-rush' of sorts to see who gets there first. Qatar has also said 'Boston' without being specific; Turkish now makes two such overtures. For their part, Emirates has said NOTHING about Boston and it wouldn't surprise me if they trumped the other two.

User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

Anyone think there is starting to be too much capacity to the Middle East ? EK QR TK and Ethiad flying to many of the same places seems a bit much. Can YUL really support QR and TK?

It's also interesting that KU never saw the potential that QR and EK saw. LY will only be a niche carrier and SV will never be what the others are because no one want to transit in Saudi Arabia


User currently offlinejmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3308 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2864 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
HAV - Cuba becoming ever more popular tourist market. A few days per week might work.

MEX - One of the world largest capital cities. But virtually zero local traffic demand. Not sure about what beyond markets that can successfully sell via IST.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Mexico City's altitude will be a problem, even for the mighty 777....

Couldn't MEX simply be a tag on IST-HAV? That would basically eliminate all the issues mentioned,



.......
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1023 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

YUL = brilliant. That would make me extremely happy. But...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
YUL service will be at the mercy of Canadians allowing a 2nd service point and added frequencies. TK has yet to be able to turn YYZ daily even.

I read elsewhere that TK is going daily to YYZ from end 2012/early 2013. Took 3 years to get daily. Might take another 3 years to get into YUL. And six before they're daily. If we're lucky.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
What was once a tremendous lounge is now a zoo with good food.

As opposed to the Spartan, empty and not particularly comfortable lounges in N. America, with token food, and the occassional drink (sometimes by vouchter?) Thanks, but no thanks. I don't sleep at lounges so a zoo with good food sounds far more preferable than, say, the Maple Leaf Lounge at YOW, which I give a miss despite having the loyalty points - its nicely appointed, empty and generally very healthy by virtue of having precious little food.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 20):
Can YUL really support QR and TK

Yes, it can. TK is well placed to serve the large Lebanese/ME population (better than QR, geographically). Besides, they can offer lower prices than the EU carriers, what with not being subjected to spurious taxes, and I expect they won't have trouble taking pax off the Euro carriers, AF being the main exception because of the large O&D market between YUL and CDG.


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2867 times:

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 21):
Couldn't MEX simply be a tag on IST-HAV? That would basically eliminate all the issues mentioned

That could certainly make a lot of sense, they would avoid the issues with the non-stop to MEX and the issues when transiting in the US. IST-HAV-MEX is not a big detour either... and TK has a few tags in Asia, so nothing new here.

[Edited 2012-11-10 06:10:45]

User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1856 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2873 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 23):
That could certainly make a lot of sense, they would avoid the issues with the non-stop to MEX and the issues when transiting in the US. IST-HAV-MEX is not a big detour either... and TK has a few tags in Asia, so nothing new here.

Actually it might work doing like IST-MEX-HAV-IST, so taking off from MEX with fuel for 3-4 hours only so they can maximize the payload...

If they fly to HAV is to have some russian market and also chinese, It might work like 3 days a week but i don´t think they will have the big yields to justify a direct flight to HAV, even AF, IB, they use very low F/J density planes for this destination.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
HAV - Cuba becoming ever more popular tourist market. A few days per week might work.

It has always been a bit market mainly for Europeans and Canadians but nothing specially good in revenue, cargo could be OK as well specially from South East Asia and China, but I still don´t think this will work.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 22):
Besides, they can offer lower prices than the EU carriers, what with not being subjected to spurious taxes,

That's a good point, I never thought of. EU taxes are killing the ability of EU carriers to carry traffic from the western hemisphere to ME, South Asia and East Africa. So TK and EK and QR are taking traffic that use to go on EU carriers.


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3203 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 14):
It's growth has been amazing and impressive, but about the only thing TK actually kept their word on was Houston.

Why do you think that is? It's bizarre to me (absent a pending comprehensive UA codeshare deal), and it's a market that is already highly competitive.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3503 times:
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I love how TK announces more and more routes... that sometimes happen. When tickets are on sale *and* we're within 30 days of launch... I'll believe it.

TK is growing extremely quickly and due to good O&D traffic has potential to grow as a global hub (in particular, once the new 5 runway airport is build... when though?) But TK has odd route announcement strategies. There is only a small correlation between TK announcing they will serve a city and service within 2 years.

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
Late tonight TK announced plans to fly to following cities depending on aircraft availability

So they're waiting on the 787 or A350 eh?  
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 2):
They will fly to those cities just like they have been announcing they would fly to EZE.

   Exactly.

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
Mexico City's altitude will be a problem, even for the mighty 777....

Yes. But possible to IST. DXB is another 1810 statute miles. The reason I use those is find the distance in statute miles and it is a good estimate of the 'against the wing' still air equivalent distance in nautical miles. (Yea... crude approximation, but it works ok). That limits the 777-300ER to 195,000lbm of people and equipment per my chart reading. That wouldn't be horrid as I then estimate a payload of only about 85,000 lbm or full passengers and that is about it.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=mex-ist,+mex-dxb

For some reason the 777-300ER performance pdf isn't loading... The google viewer worked though:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kYVaWWKZi6oJ:www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/777rsec3.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgcbk6Pt4TcBhAyRKZtCoV1FRxDcFkuEr4hg19kT73F5Fj_cLcTILZEYZhL2CKa19bLBMA1LcSEohVHEIGdDY4ppOJExPvUVsosIBRbgX5sh0T0lkS9Ppjpyl7DnVWwWbXZmo97&sig=AHIEtbTAZRWe6W1kbCDWq_F7QJYvUOc4LA

To DXB, the plane would be losing about 30 passengers on a sea level takeoff. It wouldn't be possible to fly MEX-DXB against any wind (or vice versa) due to the added range. But IST is just possible.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 25):
taxes are killing the ability of EU carriers to carry traffic from the western hemisphere to ME, South Asia and East Africa. So TK and EK and QR are taking traffic that use to go on EU carriers.

No doubt. But self inflicted wounds do not count. IMHO, those taxes are to mask failures in hub expansion. It will be interesting to see how TK expands.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 24
Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

SFO Finally!

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
SFO and HAV are too small of markets maybe.

How is SFO a small market? Metro population of over 7 million (7.2) and number (1) medium incomes in the US. SFO has a large UA feed and as stated above the IST feed on the other end, I think it can be successful



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 29, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 28):
SFO has a large UA feed

Immaterial if there is no codeshare.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7617 posts, RR: 42
Reply 30, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3412 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 24):
Actually it might work doing like IST-MEX-HAV-IST, so taking off from MEX with fuel for 3-4 hours only so they can maximize the payload...

Well that depends on the bilaterals. If 5th freedom rights are not available, I don't think they will be easy to secure.

MEX-IST is shorter than other long 77W flights. It is 6,173 nm, whereas DXB-LAX is 7,246 nm, and DXB-IAH is 7,097 nm. MEX-IST can be done in a shorter time than IST-MEX because of tailwind. I would imagine MEX-IST can be done nonstop with a very small penalty or without one altogether.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3446 times:
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My guess, it MEX ever lands A Middle Eastern or Asian carrier, or in this case, Turkish Airlines, it will have to be with a stop somewhere. with MEX's high altitude, you start talking take off penalties, airlines loose business that way.

User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3402 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 31):

I would say that for a carrier like Emirates, which seems to have a very logical growth strategy.

This is not the case for TK... it looks that their target is to open as many destinations as possible to the cost of frequencies or direct routes. TK does some awkward ones... for instance Ulan Baatar via Bishkek, Accra via Abidjan, Entebbe via Kigali (I think QR does that as well) or Mogadishu via Djibouti.

And which I think is more significant for this case (I agree the previous ones are very secondary airports and medium-haul, not comparable to a MEX-IST), when they started GRU (first Middle Eastern carrier out of TK/EK/EY/QR serving the city) it was via DKR for a while. If TK enters Mexico, they would be the 1st ME carrier in the city... and with the difference (when compared to Brazil-Gulf) that QR/EY/EK will have hard doing a direct route even if they wish.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7617 posts, RR: 42
Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3427 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 31):
, it will have to be with a stop somewhere. with MEX's high altitude, you start talking take off penalties,

As we have established, MEX-IST is much shorter than other 77W routes, and is helped by tailwinds. Penalties may not be necessary at all. Additionally, MEX is not as hot as many purport it to be. Temperatures are substantially lower on average compared to other regions just south of the tropic of Cancer precisely as a result of the altitude, and one would expect the MEX-IST leg to take off in the late afternoon or early evening, which is not the hottest time of the day. The "summer" is not really hot, as it rains every afternoon. Spring would be the warmest time of the year, and the highest temperature at 2-4 pm during May and June rarely goes over 84° F.

By the same token, remember DL uses the 77L on JNB-ATL, which is much, much longer and also involves taking off from a high-altitude airport, and the flight is done nonstop. It is true, the 200LR has longer legs than the 300ER, but the distance in this case is also way longer.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineTurkish350XWB From Switzerland, joined Jan 2009, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 32):
(first Middle Eastern carrier out of TK/EK/EY/QR serving the city)

uuuuh, this is a tough statement. we had a discussion a few days ago in one thread and at the end it got deleted... actually it was decided that TK is a european airline, but let's not start that discussion again, please. just for info.


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 34):

I was not trying to create any controversy, so I didn't expect anyone to reaffirm the Europeness of their country/airline, when I think it is very clear what I was saying.

Geographically TK is an European airline, but at least in this route, they would be likely targeting the same connecting traffic that EK/EY/QR would eventually carry if they ever open MEX. This is quite similar as Egyptair, that being an African airline (no discussion about it, CAI is in Africa), they compete more often with EK or QR than with TAAG or South African.


User currently offlineTurkish350XWB From Switzerland, joined Jan 2009, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 35):

I was not trying to create any controversy, so I didn't expect anyone to reaffirm the Europeness of their country/airline, when I think it is very clear what I was saying.

Well, now you made it clear.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 35):
they would be likely targeting the same connecting traffic that EK/EY/QR would

Plus eastern europe where the MEB are quite weak. But i also heard of cases that people travel from central europe to north america via IST.


User currently offlineradiopolitic From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
There is only a small correlation between TK announcing they will serve a city and service within 2 years.

What are the routes that were announced and never followed up on?


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 24
Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 29):

Both members of Star last I checked. I believe a matter of time.

[Edited 2012-11-10 13:49:24]


"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineMeCe From Turkey, joined Oct 2009, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3374 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
None of their US services are particularly full, and it's anecdotal of course but I fly them a couple times/year up front and they're never full




At current week almost all of US flights have more than % 80 load, mostly over 90.If you are not happy with this loads I cant tell anymore, and we are in middle of winter there is no vacation. But I am very sad because it is almost impossible make a nonrev flight  


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3372 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 38):
Both members of Star last I checked. I believe a matter of time.

AS739x, as I stated when you claimed SFO-IST would be a success by the same logic, it's only relevant if they have a codeshare. I know ex-UA had a codeshare with TK, but I'm not sure what's left. UA has an incentive to connect passengers on LH, SN, OS, and LX because of the joint venture arrangement.

Now TK could join the joint venture if it develops a relationship with LH, but that is a big IF.


User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Wasn't there a thread a few weeks ago citing a link that mentioned that TK was thinking about starting ATL? Is that still possible (maybe with a 787)?

User currently offlineTurkish350XWB From Switzerland, joined Jan 2009, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3340 times:

If UA is not willing of codesharing with TK, why don't they collaborate with other us airlines? jetblue is a beginning, maybe AA is possible, why not. Star Alliance has priority, but if they do not want to work together...

User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 43, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3353 times:

In short, TK looks (or wants to look) like EK and QR just without the brains. Their network (over-)expansion is absurd, unsustainable and reminds me of a child fighiting a complex "mine is bigger than yours/i have more toys than you do or at least as many even if i don't need them).

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 43):
TK looks (or wants to look) like EK and QR just without the brains

I'd argue it's the opposite, although TK's expansion needs to be tempered so it doesn't lose control of the product. Turkey actually has a huge local market for business, ethnic, and tourism related travel. Nobody wanted to go to DXB until the government spent a fortune building a zillion malls, and no one, I mean no one, wants to go to AUH/DOH of their own volition .



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3372 times:
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Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 34):
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 32):
(first Middle Eastern carrier out of TK/EK/EY/QR serving the city)

uuuuh, this is a tough statement. we had a discussion a few days ago in one thread and at the end it got deleted... actually it was decided that TK is a european airline, but let's not start that discussion again, please. just for info.

As already noted, it is the geographic competition TK would compete with.

Quoting radiopolitic (Reply 37):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
There is only a small correlation between TK announcing they will serve a city and service within 2 years.

What are the routes that were announced and never followed up on?

EZE
http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=271203

Boston, Detroit, and Atlanta:
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...ouston-and-potentially-miami-77202

Where is Detroit and Atlanta in the latest press release?

Here is a 2011 press release that includes Miami, Boston, and Detroit (but no Atlanta, but Houston which is served):
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=364097#.UJ8EhcXA98Q


So I found links for Buenos Aires, Boston, Detroit, and Miami where TK made an announcement and hasn't followed up. Now, to be fair TK did say 2012 or 2013. Its not that TK doesn't expand (they are expanding fast), but that the cities they actually fly to keep shifting. e.g, the earliest I found TK flying to Houston was February 2011 with service started June (maybe May) of this year. But otherwise, TK will mention cities and there isn't a tight correlation with the press release and service. For example, where is Detroit, Atlanta, or Miami in this current press release? They put in CCS, MEX, and YUL instead. Not a big deal, but as I noted, just not a good correlation.

I have no doubt TK will expand. But as to where, I think my fellow a.netters have better guesses than the TK press releases.  

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):

I think that TK's expansion does not make much sense. They seem to be obsessed with the number of destinations (just see their commercials with the likes of "160 destinations", etc. every now and then with a growing number) in contrast to frequencies, reasonable layovers, non-stop destinations or IST-Ataturk that is more and more a joke (overpacked, overpriced and quite frequently unprofessional staff). Sometimes I ever wonder if they make market analysis for some destinations. Also many new destinations are just opened with 3 or 4 flights per week (often in A320/B737 for short/medium haul flights). Just in contrast with EK, which almost any new destination today is opened with a daily wide-body.

I haven't ever connected with TK from the US, but I have done it a few times from Europe.

Connecting with TK Europe-Middle East/Eastern Europe is usually quite effective... because those are short to medium long haul flights with (usually) multiple daily flights. But it is just chance. It just works because of quantity... let's say if you have two daily flight MAD-IST and 3 or 4 daily IST-GYD (Baku), you will likely find some good timings and short layovers in an "odd" route such MAD-XXX-GYD. But if you want to connect with long haul to Asia... good luck... it might or it might not and you will have unreasonable layovers (and many major cities are not even daily).

This is not the case with EK. If you take the afternoon services from anywhere in Europe, you know that you will have all the Asian services at midnight in Dubai when you arrive (and the other way around to return).

To be fair, I think QR and EY's model is a bit like Turkish's (but not that to their extent)... a bit of a mess. EK is pretty much unmatched.

[Edited 2012-11-10 20:44:38]

User currently offlineTurkish350XWB From Switzerland, joined Jan 2009, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 46):
I think that TK's expansion does not make much sense. They seem to be obsessed with the number of destinations (just see their commercials with the likes of "160 destinations", etc. every now and then with a growing number) in contrast to frequencies, reasonable layovers

I do think similar. But they are also densifying their old routes. To the biggest airports they have 3-4 daily flights. The first bank of flights to Europe depart 8-9am (after long haul and medium haul flights from asia arrive), arriving back to IST around 3-4pm, on time for India, Pakistan departures. Many flight arrive from Europe around 10pm on time for asian departures. With time, aircraft and and airport that is not slot restricted we will of course get a dense network in terms of freq.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 46):
But if you want to connect with long haul to Asia... good luck... it might or it might not and you will have unreasonable layovers (and many major cities are not even daily).

Most of their long haul asian flights are daily, exceptions are KIX 6w, CAN 4w.


User currently offlineabrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5126 posts, RR: 55
Reply 48, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3355 times:

How awesome! I can officially replace LH as my airline  .

Let's see how this all plays out.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4464 posts, RR: 12
Reply 49, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 28):
How is SFO a small market? Metro population of over 7 million (7.2) and number (1) medium incomes in the US. SFO has a large UA feed and as stated above the IST feed on the other end, I think it can be successful

You could be correct. My initial reaction TK might not be able to fill both LAX and SFO. But I have been terrible at predicting TK performance in the past. Who knows they might even fly to Vancouver or SEA one day.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 41):
Wasn't there a thread a few weeks ago citing a link that mentioned that TK was thinking about starting ATL? Is that still possible (maybe with a 787)?

That was last year. It was supposed to be IST-IAD-ATL-IAD-IST. TK trying to utilize planes at destination airports, instead of sitting on tarmac. But never materialized. Same thing with IST-GRU. Next year we might finally see IST-GRU-EZE-GRU-IST.


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 50, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 46):
They seem to be obsessed with the number of destinations (just see their commercials with the likes of "160 destinations", etc. every now and then with a growing number)

So they're obsessed with the number of destinations, yet you chide them for not noting the number of nonstop destinations?

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 46):
in contrast to frequencies, reasonable layovers, non-stop destinations.

Besides, I'd say this is a pretty common marketing tactic. I haven't seen any commercials in North America saying, "Fly Emirates . . . We have reasonable layovers!!" (But, then again, I don't watch much TV.)

What TK is trying to communicate is "We're a big airline that you may never have thought of . . . fly us!"


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 51, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3280 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 46):
This is not the case with EK. If you take the afternoon services from anywhere in Europe, you know that you will have all the Asian services at midnight in Dubai when you arrive (and the other way around to return).

I think that's EK's weakness and TK's strength. TK isn't going after MAD BKK all day every day, but rather MAD GYD as you mentioned, or DUS TAS, or BGW CPH--lots of niche, high yield, small traffic flows that can't be replicated by anyone and TK can set the price. On the other hand, EK is connecting every major city on the globe with 380s, to the point where many of EK's connections and top flows could conceivably be flown nonstop--BKKMAN is a believable nonstop on a 787 or 350. BKK HRK, however, is unlikely to have any nonstop ever.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 52, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3235 times:
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Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 46):
Also many new destinations are just opened with 3 or 4 flights per week (often in A320/B737 for short/medium haul flights). Just in contrast with EK, which almost any new destination today is opened with a daily wide-body.

EK used to open routes with 3 or 4 weekly flights. EK simply has the hub network to 'go big' at a launch. EK is also eating some costs during initial route building. I personally think EK will return to launching new cities with fewer destinations, but that will take far more airport infrastructure. In particular, the hotel rooms of the soon to be opened concourse 3 and more hotel rooms in the city. A classy type of problem to have.  

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2759 posts, RR: 6
Reply 53, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3224 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Just out of curiosity, could Turkish Airlines operate Istanbul-Miami-Havana? (without traffic rights MIA-HAV)
I know that there have been quite a lot of charter flights from the U.S. to Cuba recently so there is some traffic moving, that is why I was considering if opening up such a route could be possible.


What about linking Mexico with Huston? Could that make sense if Mexico couldn't be launched directly from Istanbul.


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 54, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
I personally think EK will return to launching new cities with fewer destinations, but that will take far more airport infrastructure.

What? You'll have to help me with this one, too.


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3185 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 51):

I completely agree; there are two models that can be complementary.

However, on the long term, I think EK's model is more successful. Because the more destinations and seats they have, the more secondary destinations they can add... and they can easily kick the competition out of the market.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 56, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3189 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting neveragain (Reply 54):
uoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
I personally think EK will return to launching new cities with fewer destinations, but that will take far more airport infrastructure.

What? You'll have to help me with this one, too.

Mis-type on my part.

EK will return to launching new cities with less than daily frequency. I needed more sleep and really botched that post.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 57, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3179 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 46):
think that TK's expansion does not make much sense. They seem to be obsessed with the number of destinations (just see their commercials with the likes of "160 destinations", etc. every now and then with a growing number) in contrast to frequencies, reasonable layovers, non-stop destinations or IST-Ataturk that is more and more a joke (overpacked, overpriced and quite frequently unprofessional staff).

Many staff in IST can't even speak English, on places such as exchange-office, i was shocked.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 43):
In short, TK looks (or wants to look) like EK and QR just without the brains. Their network (over-)expansion is absurd, unsustainable and reminds me of a child fighiting a complex "mine is bigger than yours/i have more toys than you do or at least as many even if i don't need them).

And EK's order for dozens of A380s or opening up destinations where nobody has heard of Dubai is not? You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder, judging from your recent posts on a few threads. As long as they keep growing and turning in profits, it is not without brains.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2683 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

It seems TK wants to be 1st in some markets before EK/EH/QR get there.
As an Star Alliance airline, TK may already have worked a deal with AV when it comes to feed some traffic to its network via CCS, MEX and HAV.
While it's a detour, if TK could get traffic rights between CCS and MEX, IST-CCS-MEX may be an interesting product.
Is HAV going to be non-stop from IST or via CCS, in that case quite doubtful traffic rights between CCS and HAV.

Some logic (or knowledge of hubs in Latin America) could have pointed TK into flying to PTY non-stop thrice weekly and letting CM then fly the connecting traffic to/from CCS, MEX, HAV...



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 60, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3172 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 59):
Some logic (or knowledge of hubs in Latin America) could have pointed TK into flying to PTY non-stop thrice weekly and letting CM then fly the connecting traffic to/from CCS, MEX, HAV...

yes PTY would be much better for connecting traffic! but I am sure they are looking not only feed in the destination also in IST and than with 2 stops it would be maybe to much.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 61, posted (2 years 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3124 times:

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
Seriously, CCS, BOS and YUL were expected, but....
Quoting Avianca (Reply 17):
Venezuela - has a big MidEast community, specially from Libanon, but also Palestina, Jordania, Syria etc.

Indeed wow, how on earth can TK make CCS work? If the Middle Eastern population in Venezuela really was that big, why have all other attempts on such a route been so unsuccesful. I know V0 is a different story but I mean, if the demand was there they would have operated at least more frequently, no?

I hope to see TK in CUR should the airport in CCS be closed due to bad weather 

A388


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4464 posts, RR: 12
Reply 62, posted (2 years 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 61):

Indeed wow

Seriously!
Sometimes we can be too judgmental about these TK route news.
But who would have thought TK would be flying non-stop 77W to LAX daily 5 years ago or 3 x daily summer JFK?
All I know is, this is pretty exciting for all of us who grew up in the 70's looking up at BA, KL, LH, AF jets and hoping TK would become an airline just like them one day.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 63, posted (2 years 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3112 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 62):
But who would have thought TK would be flying non-stop 77W to LAX daily 5 years ago or 3 x daily summer JFK?

I can see why the LAX market works and JFK because these markets are big but CCS?

Quoting TK787 (Reply 62):
and hoping TK would become an airline just like them one day.

I do agree with you on this though. It's always nice to your own airline expand like the other big airlines do so I do wish TK luck too. I hope it works out for them so please don't get me wrong.

A388


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2683 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (2 years 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 63):
I can see why the LAX market works and JFK because these markets are big but CCS?

IST - CCS/MEX/HAV O/D must be quite small.
IST TK hub - CCS/MEX/HAV O/D may be something, but still doesn't seem to be that large.

However, I must recognise TK to CCS/MEX/HAV does seem to be quite of out-of-the-box thinking from TK's part, kudos to TK for that.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineorl777 From Venezuela, joined Jun 2005, 271 posts, RR: 5
Reply 65, posted (2 years 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 61):
Indeed wow, how on earth can TK make CCS work? If the Middle Eastern population in Venezuela really was that big, why have all other attempts on such a route been so unsuccesful. I know V0 is a different story but I mean, if the demand was there they would have operated at least more frequently, no?

I hope to see TK in CUR should the airport in CCS be closed due to bad weather

CCS can perfectly work for TK, Remember that Venezuelan likes to travel a lot, so we have almost all flight full every day, we have a lack of seat and almost no offer to Europe.. also we have a HUGE chinese population also can work for TK, I hope this route can become reality!

Remeber that the Iran Air flight was more political than any other reason, same goes with the Damascus flight, but with Turkish they can use the flight for connecting with Europe, Middle East and Asia!

Saludos


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17126 posts, RR: 10
Reply 66, posted (2 years 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3100 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 62):
But who would have thought TK would be flying non-stop 77W to LAX daily 5 years ago or 3 x daily summer JFK?

Isnt there even talks about going double daily to LAX?



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4464 posts, RR: 12
Reply 67, posted (2 years 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3110 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 66):
Isnt there even talks about going double daily to LAX?

Rumors, but I don't know where the metal will come from. TK ordered 77Ws will start arriving 2014.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 68, posted (2 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

Quoting orl777 (Reply 65):
I hope this route can become reality!

Same here, any airline is welcome for me too.

Quoting orl777 (Reply 65):
Europe, Middle East and Asia!

I can see the value of TK going to Asia and maybe the Middle East (if there indeed is sufficient demand) but is Europe really that badly covered by the existing European carriers flying to CCS? You already have LH, IB, AZ, TP, UX and AF flying to CCS(?)

A388


User currently offlineorl777 From Venezuela, joined Jun 2005, 271 posts, RR: 5
Reply 69, posted (2 years 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3087 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 68):
I can see the value of TK going to Asia and maybe the Middle East (if there indeed is sufficient demand) but is Europe really that badly covered by the existing European carriers flying to CCS? You already have LH, IB, AZ, TP, UX and AF flying to CCS(?)

yes, try to find tickets for the high season, you need to book by 8 or 9 months before travel and all the time the prices are high, for example for me was more cheaper and better going CCS-MIA-MAD than direct CCS-MAD with the same IB or with UX.. is crazy but it can work for TK.

Maybe they can start with 4 weekly flights or so.. and I think the 77W is the right aircraft for this route.

Saludos


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (2 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3076 times:

Quoting orl777 (Reply 69):

Direct flights tend to be more expensive. In this particular case, many people wouldn't be able to/wouldn't like to transit through the US. So you see why this CCS-MIA-MAD is cheaper than CCS-MAD.


User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 782 posts, RR: 2
Reply 71, posted (2 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3078 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 64):
However, I must recognise TK to CCS/MEX/HAV does seem to be quite of out-of-the-box thinking from TK's part, kudos to TK for that.
Quoting A388 (Reply 61):
ndeed wow, how on earth can TK make CCS work? If the Middle Eastern population in Venezuela really was that big, why have all other attempts on such a route been so unsuccesful. I know V0 is a different story but I mean, if the demand was there they would have operated at least more frequently, no?

It is indeed very out-of-the-box ... and could really work if done right. Kudos!

I just searched for the middle eastern population diaspora ... and was blown away by the number of sheer Lebanese population living in South America. It's not just Venezuela, but also Colombia, Brazil, and Argentina. If you add people from other countries in the region ... Syria, Palestine, Iraq, etc ... the number must be even larger. In fact, I remember meeting this wonderful Palestinian businessman in Iguacu Falls, Brazil of all places  

TK must have some sense if they are also getting Lebanese traffic in their GRU flights. I hope this works out for them ... they could become a convenient channel for the Levant diaspora in Latin America. In fact, they could add BOG to the list as well.

Check out this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_diaspora


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 72, posted (2 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3084 times:

Quoting orl777 (Reply 69):
yes, try to find tickets for the high season, you need to book by 8 or 9 months before travel and all the time the prices are high, for example for me was more cheaper and better going CCS-MIA-MAD than direct CCS-MAD with the same IB or with UX.. is crazy but it can work for TK.

So TK also sees high fares when they start CCS flights.

Do European carriers have the same problem with expanding to/from Venezuela as the U.S. carriers have?

A388


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2683 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (2 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

Quoting ASA (Reply 71):
It is indeed very out-of-the-box

Some line of thinking the other "relatively big" airline in the area - and also an Star Alliance one - MS is light-years away.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 782 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (2 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3089 times:

while we are in rumor mode ...  TK could operate HAV and MEX in a tag-on as some suggested earlier ... will take care of issues of lift and payload at MEX (if at all it is an issue). Similarly, TK should consider BOG and add it to CCS as a tag-on. CCS falls almost on the direct route to BOG ... and will take care of the elevation issues at BOG as well. And if EZE materializes ... the following map could be the potential TK foray into LatAm ... with three tag-ons!  
  



Edited for formatting

[Edited 2012-11-12 11:07:32]

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 75, posted (2 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

Quoting ASA (Reply 74):
CCS falls almost on the direct route to BOG ... and will take care of the elevation issues at BOG as well.

What will be taken care off in BOG? The aircraft can't take off from BOG at full payload so they will lose out there.

A388


User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 782 posts, RR: 2
Reply 76, posted (2 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 75):
What will be taken care off in BOG? The aircraft can't take off from BOG at full payload so they will lose out there.

Not even with just enough fuel to reach CCS ? That's way less payload. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

I actually meant a BOG-CCS-IST routing. So the aircraft can lift off from BOG with enough fuel to CCS ... and fill up with passenger/cargo from CCS and cheap CITGO gas on the way to IST  


User currently offlineSQSFO From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (2 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3117 times:

SFO could work if the flights connect well to the middle east and Indian subcontinent flights! Turkish can offer some great connections, to cities like Kabul( I believe from the west coast this option is the only one the would result in a one stop trip to Kabul)! There are a lot of Afghan's in the bay area that could be particularly happy! I for one am extremely excited if and when they open SFO! I'll be traveling to Delhi next summer, so I hope i get to try their exquisite business class and Do&Co catering!

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7617 posts, RR: 42
Reply 78, posted (2 years 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 64):
IST - CCS/MEX/HAV O/D must be quite small.
IST TK hub - CCS/MEX/HAV O/D may be something, but still doesn't seem to be that large.

However, I must recognise TK to CCS/MEX/HAV does seem to be quite of out-of-the-box thinking from TK's part, kudos to TK for that.

I agree. IST-MEX from a purely O&D perspective is a bad proposition. There are no meaningful diplomatic or economic ties between the two countries that would justify a non-stop flight. The motivation for TK is clearly the opportunity to offer connections between flights to MEX, on the one hand, and Middle East, Africa and Central Asia destinations, on the other. I, too, applaud the thinking-outside-the-box and, if they actually go ahead and do it soon, their making it happen before EK and QR.

Quoting orl777 (Reply 65):
CCS can perfectly work for TK, Remember that Venezuelan likes to travel a lot, so we have almost all flight full every day,

How large is the actual population of Venezuela that can afford and is willing to travel internationally beyond traditional destinations such as the Americas and Europe? Given the situation of the country, we are talking of a small elite that won't be getting any larger in the next few years and who already have their long-haul needs satisfied by U.S. and European airlines (and many of them already live in Miami, anyway). I don't think CCS is a good idea for TK at all, but I guess I could be proved wrong.

Quoting ASA (Reply 74):
issues of lift and payload at MEX (if at all it is an issue)

As I have tried to explain before, I don't think this is an issue if the purported flight is to be operated with 77Ws. I would be more concerned about filling a 77W, say, 4x weekly, than any range issues. I think this is too big a plane to launch flights to MEX. Something of the size of the A332 would be much more logical, but that one would most likely require a stop along the way.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineAA767LOVER From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2007, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

Hey I wonder why CUBANA stopped their IL-96 to SVO. . . would it work better to DME?


J.I. Tsui, American Advantage Member, United Mileage Plus (Premier)
User currently offlineLLA001 From Turkey, joined May 2005, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (2 years 2 weeks ago) and read 3046 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 78):
As I have tried to explain before, I don't think this is an issue if the purported flight is to be operated with 77Ws. I would be more concerned about filling a 77W, say, 4x weekly, than any range issues. I think this is too big a plane to launch flights to MEX. Something of the size of the A332 would be much more logical, but that one would most likely require a stop along the way.

maybe TK needs 77L for these routes, good long range and not so dense as 77W

it is good to see these new routes but Ataturk airport is already too crowded, I don't know how will be the airport in the next few years


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (2 years 2 weeks ago) and read 3032 times:

Quoting LLA001 (Reply 80):
it is good to see these new routes but Ataturk airport is already too crowded, I don't know how will be the airport in the next few years

   Maybe they will try to increase utilization or overnight at outposts even more?


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 82, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Good news for TK in the Southern Cone. Turkish applied yesterday for a modification in its HOTRAN ("transportation hours" - direct translation) before the Brazilian ANAC. That kind of application is a step after the green light for slots. The proposed schedule is:

TK15 77W -23-5-7 IST 0920 GRU 1900 2015 EZE 2155
TK16 77W -23-5-7 EZE 2355 GRU 0335+1 0505+1 IST 2125+1

Proposed start date: December 11, 2012


User currently offlineTurkish350XWB From Switzerland, joined Jan 2009, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 82):
TK15 77W -23-5-7 IST 0920 GRU 1900 2015 EZE 2155
TK16 77W -23-5-7 EZE 2355 GRU 0335+1 0505+1 IST 2125+1

This schedule has good connectivity for Middle-East and Far-East flights and mean decoupling from the common Americas schedule.


User currently offlineNostrum From Bahamas, joined Jul 2011, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

On TK's official Facebook page they posted the following message last Sunday:

News of the day! Turkish Airlines added 6 new destinations. Based on aircraft availability and upon obtaining the authorizations, operating flights will start to Caracas the capital of Venezuela; Mexico City the capital of Mexico; Havana the capital of Cuba; Boston and San Francisco, USA and Montreal, Canada. Stay tuned for more info!

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 79):
Hey I wonder why CUBANA stopped their IL-96 to SVO. . . would it work better to DME?

CU never flew the IL-96 to SVO. CU stopped flying with their a/c to SVO in the 1990s during Cuba's "Special Period in Time of Peace". Since the 1990s they code-share with SU 5x weekly SVO-HAV.


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 85, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3036 times:

Quoting Nostrum (Reply 84):
Based on aircraft availability

I understand the requirement for operating authorities (especially with YUL), but why would this be in question? TK doesn't know how many aircraft it will have next year?

I guess what they're trying to say is, "If we have more profitable places to fly aircraft, we will."


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4464 posts, RR: 12
Reply 86, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 85):
TK doesn't know how many aircraft it will have next year?

Besides planned jet arrivals, TK grabs planes in the lease market when it makes sense.
That was how Jet 77Ws came to TK, and convinced TK to purchase their own.
Likewise, TK leased 330s wet/dry when the price is right.
So, if TK can find some good deals we might see some of these routes open sooner than later.
And as usual if things change in the economic/political world we might never see them operate.


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 87, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 86):
Besides planned jet arrivals, TK grabs planes in the lease market when it makes sense.

So, instead of

Quoting neveragain (Reply 85):
"If we have more profitable places to fly aircraft, we will."

It's rather

"If we get some cheap aircraft, we'll fly to Caracas"?


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3057 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 87):
"If we get some cheap aircraft, we'll fly to Caracas"?

More like, "If - after we have determined the frequencies that we fly to current destinations and the aircraft we use on them, and as a result, know the frames that are available- we know that we have available aircraft to open and operate the route, we will". If adding a 2nd daily to LAX becomes more profitable, they will, rather than open CCS.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 89, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

Quoting ASA (Reply 76):
Not even with just enough fuel to reach CCS ? That's way less payload. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

I actually meant a BOG-CCS-IST routing. So the aircraft can lift off from BOG with enough fuel to CCS

Okay, now I see what you mean. If they fly IST-BOG-CCS than they can make it to CCS with a full payload and refuel in CCS for the onward flight back to IST.

Airlines mostly prefer to fly their aircraft at full payload but some flights are operated with weight restrictions. This depends on the destination involved. I've read before that EK route to either SFO or LAX is payload restricted but still operated with that restriction.

A388


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 90, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3058 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 88):
If adding a 2nd daily to LAX becomes more profitable, they will, rather than open CCS.

Which is what I said in the first place.

So not much of a commitment.

Still interested as to why people think IAH made the cut when so many others to date haven't.

[Edited 2012-11-13 05:51:41]

User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 91, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3050 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 90):

Which is what I said in the first place.

So not much of a commitment.

Still interested as to why people think IAH made the cut when so many others to date haven't.

Because, that one was not part of a stock market announcement of intended destinations, but an official route announcement with actual schedule info and start date down to the day. TK has not given dates for any of the other destinations mentioned here - yet. IAH tickets are on sale, do you need any further proof?


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4464 posts, RR: 12
Reply 92, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 90):
so many others

Besides EZE, ATL what other cities you are referring to?


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 93, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3072 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 92):
Besides EZE, ATL what other cities you are referring to?

EZE, ATL, BOS, DTW, and MIA

I guess BOS is still on the list, though

Lightsaber posted above:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...ouston-and-potentially-miami-77202


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 94, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 93):
DTW, and MIA

Those were never on the TK website. Only newspaper reports. BOS is indeed newly announced.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 95, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3056 times:

I think a few posters here are getting these announcements confused for what they are not.

Under Turkish stock market regulations, TK must notify the market of major events including plans to launch new services.
The time frame between these notification and commencement of actual service can potentially be years.

If you are looking for an actual launch announcement, then I suggest you ignore these formal stock market notifications, and instead await a formal schedule listing in GDS and press release about a new route.
But what these notifications do serve is to signal the intention of the company, and their thinking in regards to network moves.

Also for reference TK as noted in reply 82, has applied for slots to commence EZE service as well. So something that was mentioned almost 2-years ago as a target route, is coming closer to reality now.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 96, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3044 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 95):
Under Turkish stock market regulations, TK must notify the market of major events including plans to launch new services.

Thank you for the explanation. What's the required timeframe for these announcements? Houston was announced on the website to this regard on April 30, 2012. The schedules were filed 45 days later on June 16.

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 94):
Those were never on the TK website. Only newspaper reports.

OK

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 94):
BOS is indeed newly announced.

"Subject to aircraft availability," time unknown.

We may not all understand the nuances, but surely you can understand why many of us "non-insiders" are frequently confused.


User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 782 posts, RR: 2
Reply 97, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 93):
Lightsaber posted above:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...77202
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 95):
Under Turkish stock market regulations, TK must notify the market of major events including plans to launch new services. The time frame between these notification and commencement of actual service can potentially be years.

I just re-read the link ... it said "The airline has also indicated it will commence services to Miami, Boston, Detroit and Atlanta as part of its near- to medium-term network expansion plan with Miami also likely to be launched in 2013." ... only "intentions" and that too, a potential wait of 1-2 years ... just as LAXintl explained. Thanks for the clarification, guys!

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 94):
Those were never on the TK website. Only newspaper reports. BOS is indeed newly announced.

I'm glad to hear this ... so BOS (hopefully) is in closer sights than the rest. In fact, with the recent arrangement with jetBlue ... this could indeed be a great North Atlantic gateway for TK. BOS is the second largest hub for B6 ... i'm sure there will be plenty traffic to connect ... in addition to the O&D.

Aircraft availability should be easier as well - as this could be an easy 332/333 route (about 4200 nm) ... bring it on before QR or EK calls it!  


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 98, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

Also guys, don't forget TK CEO was also quoted last month stating besides new markets, another goal is to increase frequency on current longhaul routes also. More specifically he stated:

"More flights to destinations to New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and Sao Paulo as well as locations in China and Japan."

Quoting neveragain (Reply 96):
Thank you for the explanation. What's the required timeframe for these announcements? Houston was announced on the website to this regard on April 30, 2012. The schedules were filed 45 days later on June 16.

Actually Houston was on the agenda back 2010. There was a Turkish government delegation visit including the transport minister which indicated TK would commence the service, but without a firm time frame. If you follow the Turkish aviation thread we had discussion back at the time as well.

But in essence there is no firm timeline required for the stock market notifications to happen. For instance YUL cannot happen until Canada bilateral is revised. How long that might take (if ever) is your guess. Other routes like EZE are also taking a long time, while others an happen rather fast.

As I pointed out earlier, these notifications basically only serve to provide an inside glimpse of what the network and commercial folks have in mind - a peak at their wish list essentially.

Quoting ASA (Reply 97):
Thanks for the clarification, guys!

Glad to provide the clarification.

Quoting ASA (Reply 97):
so BOS (hopefully) is in closer sights than the rest.

As I posted in the Turkish Av thread, BOS came very close to having been launched. If not for Star Alliance membership, TK would have planted a flag at BOS before IAD.
There has long existed decent local demand to/from BOS, so its only a matter of equipment before it become reality.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinewingedtaurus From Mexico, joined Mar 2007, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

I think MEX is the strongest candidate. It is very similar to GRU who is making a good run. With GRU and MEX they have the two biggest LATAM cities and markets.

User currently offlineTurkish350XWB From Switzerland, joined Jan 2009, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

Quoting wingedtaurus (Reply 99):
It is very similar to GRU who is making a good run.

Do you mean the LF on that route ?


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 101, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3030 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 98):
Actually Houston was on the agenda back 2010. There was a Turkish government delegation visit including the transport minister which indicated TK would commence the service, but without a firm time frame. If you follow the Turkish aviation thread we had discussion back at the time as well.

I'm aware of this.

But we seem to be creating "classes" of announcements:

(1) Those cities for which TK management has stated publicly, in one way, shape, or form, to which service will be added

(2) (1) plus a site visit by the transport minister

(3) Stock market filing

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 98):
But in essence there is no firm timeline required for the stock market notifications to happen.

Then I don't get the point. Why not just file a Form 8-K (Turkish equivalent of course) with the press release when the service is announced?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 98):
As I pointed out earlier, these notifications basically only serve to provide an inside glimpse of what the network and commercial folks have in mind - a peak at their wish list essentially.

To what end? Marketing? Pure puffery? Signal to QR: "Stay out of Boston?"

Same with the statements about LH-TK a couple of weeks ago.

(For the record, I'm not trying to be critical of TK, just trying to understand the rationale. I've flown TK a couple of times and very much enjoyed it.)


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 102, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

Stock market filings are required as the company will be doing some form of internal study about opening the line following this filing and they need to inform shareholders. The actual press release regarding a line opening is the end result of those internal studies and relevant permissions being taken. Apart from these two, any publicity - be it from a minister or the CEO himself - is just pure speculation / wishlist. I don't think it is that confusing.

Determine potential destinations with market studies -> Inform the stock market and investors -> Do a study on route dynamics, a/c need, frequencies, obtain permissions, slots -> Announce the new destination to public -> Load to GDS and start selling -> Start flying


User currently offlineneveragain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 103, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 102):
I don't think it is that confusing.

What other airlines operate that way though?

QR perhaps. Maybe that's the point.

It may just be a reflection of unique Turkish securities law.

[Edited 2012-11-13 14:40:40]

User currently offlineXA744 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 734 posts, RR: 3
Reply 104, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

Quoting wingedtaurus (Reply 99):
I think MEX is the strongest candidate

Nah, I don't think so...kindly, allow me to explain: I know, I have been away from the industry, already 12 years, but believe things have not changed that much, in regards to the flow of Mexican air travel to countries beyond the Americas and Europe. You see, like someone has already,roughly,mentioned in this thread before, the niche and momentum are just not yet there. Mexico still has to go a long way, before it could develop a strong market base for carriers from Central Asia and the Middle East....Mexico, at this time, can hardly support existing direct links with China and Japan, but nothing else.

You fellas, out there, can flame me all you want, but that is the way it is and how it will remain, for some more time, I say.

...in summary, Turkish Airlines would be making a great mistake if it decides to open a regular air link with Mexico; no substance that could back such a costly and non-sense enterprise.

...trust me on this one.


Best regards

[Edited 2012-11-13 15:27:19]


No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 105, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3080 times:

I wonder why QR/EK never tried to link IAH and MEX, that route would definitely make sense to exist.

User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (2 years 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3073 times:

Is TK still interested in flying to MIA? I think MIA is a much more feasible destination than HAV since it is much more premium-oriented. That being said Miami has a large Lebanese and Israeli population that can surely use this flight,

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7617 posts, RR: 42
Reply 107, posted (2 years 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3038 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 105):
wonder why QR/EK never tried to link IAH and MEX, that route would definitely make sense to exist.

Because there is no way they would get fifth-freedom rights for the IAH-MEX-IAH sectors.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinechrisnh From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4149 posts, RR: 2
Reply 108, posted (2 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Quoting ASA (Reply 97):
Aircraft availability should be easier as well - as this could be an easy 332/333 route (about 4200 nm) ... bring it on before QR or EK calls it!

The most silent of these carriers has been Emirates, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them in Boston before the other two.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (2 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

I recently heard that TK will be announcing MIA service for next year and that miami will be its next destinations.

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 110, posted (2 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3008 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 61):

Indeed wow, how on earth can TK make CCS work? If the Middle Eastern population in Venezuela really was that big, why have all other attempts on such a route been so unsuccesful. I know V0 is a different story but I mean, if the demand was there they would have operated at least more frequently, no?
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 78):
How large is the actual population of Venezuela that can afford and is willing to travel internationally beyond traditional destinations such as the Americas and Europe? Given the situation of the country, we are talking of a small elite that won't be getting any larger in the next few years and who already have their long-haul needs satisfied by U.S. and European airlines (and many of them already live in Miami, anyway). I don't think CCS is a good idea for TK at all, but I guess I could be proved wrong.

interesting that everybody means that it would be such an exotic flight. following arguments are more than correct.

Quoting orl777 (Reply 65):
CCS can perfectly work for TK, Remember that Venezuelan likes to travel a lot, so we have almost all flight full every day, we have a lack of seat and almost no offer to Europe.. also we have a HUGE chinese population also can work for TK, I hope this route can become reality!

Remeber that the Iran Air flight was more political than any other reason, same goes with the Damascus flight, but with Turkish they can use the flight for connecting with Europe, Middle East and Asia!
Quoting Avianca (Reply 17):
Venezuela - has a big MidEast community, specially from Libanon, but also Palestina, Jordania, Syria etc.

Also the loads to China, India are increasing a lot, fares are high yield.
As before mentioned I still doubt it but for sure not impossible.

well the estimated population in Venezuela of Arab origin or decendent are belive it or not 1.600.000 - roughly 6% of the total population - main origins are Syira, Palestina and Libanon. They are represented in all levels - including some important followers / ministers, governours are of Arab origin. Beside their is an important trafic of Venezulean Expats communiting back and forth to Saudia Arabia working in the oil industires. and as mentioned for sure TK would target a lot the Chinese market, which is incredible hugh - much bigger than many would think. A big ethnic chinese community in Venezuela - mostly cantonese and also from taiwan. We have even a daily chinese newspapger in Valencia! these days AF is getting the biggest bunch of business, sometimes when taking the CDG-CCS flight you first would think to be on a flight leaving for China / Hong Kong. Also lets not forget tha in the last years a hugh "cheap" workforce immigrated from China to Venezuela thanks to agreements between Venezuela and China - were the chinese companys not only provide the tecnology but also the workforce.

I am also sure TK would get some feed from other * carrier like TA, CM and AV.

As last point - even the airlines have some dealy to get out their money from the country the Venezulean market is incredible high yield!

The cheapest fares you can find to Europe for example are around 1.500 USD - but normally in the range of +2.000 USD + for the cheapest booking class. I pay for example for my christmas vacation to germany 3.000 USD per person even we booked already in July. Same goes for Asia - the cheapest fares via Europe are at at least 3.500 USD per person.

On the cargo side - the IST-CCS leg would be for sure achieve very high loads with a good yield, specially for transit cargo ex Asia / India on the opposit the CCS-IST leg would be basically 0 due to limited exports from Venezuela

So all in all I am sure TK would be not silly to start the route.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 64):
IST TK hub - CCS/MEX/HAV O/D may be something, but still doesn't seem to be that large.
Quoting ASA (Reply 76):
cheap CITGO gas on the way to IST

well what I heard is that CCS is one of the most expensive airports in the region for gas - specially for non Venezulean airlines - and payable in USD - not Local currency. totatlly the opposite for car gas - well I pay to fill up my pick-up truck around 0,60 USD  

Cheers
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (2 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3011 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 110):

Miami would see service from TK way before CCS will. Their is much more premium traffic to Turkey, the Middle East and elsewhere from Miami. Miami has finance and banks and many tech companies what has CCS to offer?


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 112, posted (2 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3012 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 111):

Miami would see service from TK way before CCS will. Their is much more premium traffic to Turkey, the Middle East and elsewhere from Miami. Miami has finance and banks and many tech companies what has CCS to offer?

well I have no problems with your wish that MIA should get first TK service, but finally it decides TK or?

I am just courious to know on what are you basing that MIA has much more premimum traffic than CCS?

1. MIA / SouthFlorida has much more connections to Europe and 1 stop to rest of the world than CCS.
2. just check my post above - 1.6 mio of Arabs / decents living in Venezuela.
3. Big Chinese community in Venezuela with a big Chinese expat community
4. Oil traffic - mostly generated as already explained due to VE expats working in Saudi-Arabia and other parts of the plane were TK can offer connections - these kind of travelers flying back and forth each several weeks.
5. again check my post above I mentioned the ticket fares, and that was only base for Eco.

So if MIA gets first the TK service congratulations - just as recomendation, dont post useles comments without knowing facts about the market in CCS / Venezuela.

And finally the anouncement was done by TK.

Cheers
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (2 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3014 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 112):

MIA does not have more connections to Europe than CCS with the exceptions of BA and LX maybe. Plus IST is not based on Europe connections but to connections to the middle east and central Asia.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 114, posted (2 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2998 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 111):
Miami would see service from TK way before CCS will.

One can never know for sure of course, but no announcements whatsoever regarding MIA so far might mean otherwise.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (2 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3001 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 114):

An announcement was made back in July. That is pretty recent to me, plus i find it hard to believe that HAV will see TK service before MIA.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 116, posted (2 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3007 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 115):

An announcement was made back in July. That is pretty recent to me, plus i find it hard to believe that HAV will see TK service before MIA.

Where was this made? TK website has no such announcement for July. Please read LAXIntl's reply 95 or my reply 102. Only official announcements carry actual weight.


User currently offlineLX138 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

HAV would be very strange. Someone said there could be feed from China onto that flight. Who an earth from China would be going to HAV?! There's no feed possibilities from the east whatsoever.

MEX is strange. You'd think their best strategy would to be to lure Europeans onto this flight but that means backtracking a long way for most. Perhaps theres a big Turkish community in MEX?

The others seem a bit more sensible.



StarWorld Team - The ultimate airline alliance
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7617 posts, RR: 42
Reply 118, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

Quoting LX138 (Reply 117):
MEX is strange. You'd think their best strategy would to be to lure Europeans onto this flight but that means backtracking a long way for most. Perhaps theres a big Turkish community in MEX?

Yes, serving European travelers would be backtracking, especially when there are plenty of connections via YYZ, IAD, JFK, ATL, EWR, CLT, IAH, DFW, MIA and ORD. There is not a large Turkish colony in Mexico... there is a "large" Lebanese colony, but they would not generate sufficient demand.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2972 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 113):
MIA does not have more connections to Europe than CCS with the exceptions of BA and LX maybe.

How about DL and AA flying europe??



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 120, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

Found CCS-PEK round-trip for around 1800 USD via Miami and Seattle in January. Not that bad you would say. I doubt TK can do better. I really see no perspective for that market. The only other destination that would make sense for TK to open in the Americas that's definitely BOS. I highly doubt EZE as well, would be interesting to know the real numbers on IST-GRU and stop speculating.

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 121, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 113):
MIA does not have more connections to Europe than CCS with the exceptions of BA and LX maybe. Plus IST is not based on Europe connections but to connections to the middle east and central Asia.

I am litte bit wondering based on what you are making your posts comments? just gut feeling?

well here we go if my calculation is correct MIA has this winter 104 weekly nonstop flights to Euorpe.

CCS has 41 nonstop flights - before you say what I am posting is not true... here we go with the corresponding flights.

MIA has
TP to LIS 3 x weekly with A332
AA to MAD, BCN, each 7 x weekly with B767 and 10 x weekly to LHR with a B777 / 767 combo
IB to MAD 10 x weekly with A346 and A343
AF to CDG 6 x weekly with B777
AZ to MXP 3 x weekly with A330 and 6 x weekly FCO with A330 / B777 combo
AB to DUS 6 x weekly and 3 x weekly to TXL using A330
LH to DUS 5 x weekly with A343 and 7 x weekly to FRA using A380
OR to AMS 2 x weekly with B767
LX to ZRH 7 x weekly with A330
BA to LHR 21 x weekly with B747 / B777 mix
VS to LHR 7 x weekly with A346/B747 mix

CCS has
TP to LIS 4 x weekly with A332 (1 is operated via Funchal) and 1 x weekly to OPO with A332
IB to MAD 7 x weekly with A346
UX to MAD 7 x weekly with A330
V0 to MAD 2 x weekly with 767
AZ to FCO 7 x weekly with A330
AF to CDG 7 x weekly with A343
LH to FRA 7 x weekly with A346

regarding seat capacity my feeling says that the ratio is even higher compared to frequenzy.

Also - TK may not be serving passengers to western Europe - as mentioned before the main market for them would be mid-east and asia - were MIA would have a tons of additional 1 stop connections beside options on European carrier.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 120):
Found CCS-PEK round-trip for around 1800 USD via Miami and Seattle in January. Not that bad you would say. I doubt TK can do better. I really see no perspective for that market. The only other destination that would make sense for TK to open in the Americas that's definitely BOS. I highly doubt EZE as well, would be interesting to know the real numbers on IST-GRU and stop speculating.

of course you can always find good deals, but is this the norm? also biggest bunch of our Chinese friends living in Venezuela dont have US or Canada Visa to transit via... easier for them to get schengen transit visa (not even sure if its needed).

Cheers
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlinewingedtaurus From Mexico, joined Mar 2007, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 118):

I think there is room in MEX for either TK/EK/QR or EY whoever gets first. The way I see it is not only in terms of Turkey but in connections to the Middle East, East-Southern Africa and India, the key as TK knows well are the connections. TK has an advantage over the others: it is closer to MEX. IST-MEX is 1600 miles shorter than either tnan DOH and DXB, I'm not even sure DOH and DXB are technicaly feasible. I think they will give a run for their money to the European carriers getting passangers to these regions, their product is great and Mexican citizens can get a visa at the airport. The problem with MEX is of course the distance and the altitude, but also the NY/Eurocentric view that these airports are the the only way to go to these places. If TK has good prices I'm sure they can fly 3x weekly as they do in GRU. Not counting SFO and BOS, MEX is a bigger airport than the rest.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 123, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 120):

72.5 is the LF for IST-GRU. This is 8 pts higher than last year.


User currently offlineNostrum From Bahamas, joined Jul 2011, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2974 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 115):
An announcement was made back in July. That is pretty recent to me, plus i find it hard to believe that HAV will see TK service before MIA.

HAV supports 10x weekly AF 77W, year-round KL service to AMS and 6x SU year-round service. KL and SU fly seasonal to MIA and AF can't even support a 7x weekly.

By any means I'm saying HAV is surpassing MIA or they're comparable in any way, but HAV is underestimated.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7617 posts, RR: 42
Reply 125, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2956 times:

Quoting wingedtaurus (Reply 122):
I think there is room in MEX for either TK/EK/QR or EY whoever gets first. The way I see it is not only in terms of Turkey but in connections to the Middle East, East-Southern Africa and India, the key as TK knows well are the connections. TK has an advantage over the others: it is closer to MEX. IST-MEX is 1600 miles shorter than either tnan DOH and DXB

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you on several points. See below:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 78):
IST-MEX from a purely O&D perspective is a bad proposition. There are no meaningful diplomatic or economic ties between the two countries that would justify a non-stop flight. The motivation for TK is clearly the opportunity to offer connections between flights to MEX, on the one hand, and Middle East, Africa and Central Asia destinations, on the other. I, too, applaud the thinking-outside-the-box and, if they actually go ahead and do it soon, their making it happen before EK and QR.

I want to be optimistic about this, but I think it is not as easy as it sounds. As I have said, the 77W might be the only plane in TK's fleet with the legs to reach IST from MEX nonstop, but it is way too big for whatever the size of the market that may exist. This is a mission better suited to 788s, 789s or 77Ls; anything bigger than that is a recipe for disaster. I wonder if the enhanced A332 that will be rolled out in a year or two would be able to reach IST from MEX nonstop without penalties.

There is another issue. Mexico's economic and commercial ties are mostly with the U.S. and, to a lesser extent, Europe and the rest of Latin America. Far, far behind are countries such as Japan and China. The ties with countries from the Middle East, East Africa, Central Asia and with India are far too small at the moment to justify a service to the Middle East. While there are a few Indian and Middle Eastern companies with interests in Mexico and viceversa, that would only account for a handful of passengers per month, and I doubt that launching a flight solely on tourism and a small number of V.F.R. pax is a good idea.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 126, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2962 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 121):
also biggest bunch of our Chinese friends living in Venezuela dont have US or Canada Visa to transit via... easier for them to get schengen transit visa (not even sure if its needed).

No Schengen transit visa needed assuming the passenger is connecting the same day.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3003 times:

Quoting Nostrum (Reply 124):
MIA-CDG is daily in the summer, so that 6xweekly schedule is only for the winter months. Are you sure SU is only seasonal?

[Edited 2012-11-15 16:30:21]

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 128, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Quoting Nostrum (Reply 124):
By any means I'm saying HAV is surpassing MIA

I'm not so sure about that. In any case, MIA is much more important for these airlines than HAV is. HAV is a purely leisure destination, if demand drops these airlines will stop serving here but with MIA that's not the case.

A388


User currently offlineArgentina From Argentina, joined Aug 2000, 374 posts, RR: 12
Reply 129, posted (2 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

EZE finally joins TK list of destinations effective 11DEC2012

From airlineroute.net
Turkish Airlines to Start Buenos Aires Operation from Dec 2012

Update at 0840GMT 19NOV12

Turkish Airlines starting 11DEC12 is extending its 4 weekly Istanbul – Sao Paulo operation to Buenos Aires, on board Boeing 777-300ER aircraft. With the service extension, Sao Paulo – Istanbul sector sees operational schedule changes, which has been reflected in the GDS since July 2012. However, reservation for Sao Paulo – Buenos Aires sector did not appear until Saturday 17NOV12.

Schedule:

TK015 IST0920 – 1900GRU2015 – 2155EZE 77W x146
TK016 EZE2355 – 0345+1GRU0505+1 – 2125+1IST 77W x146


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 130, posted (2 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2928 times:

Quoting Argentina (Reply 129):
Schedule:

TK015 IST0920 – 1900GRU2015 – 2155EZE 77W x146
TK016 EZE2355 – 0345+1GRU0505+1 – 2125+1IST 77W x146

Wow, a new destination starting service before all the other ones in this thread. Why is EZE started and CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO, YUL have not? Do the bilateral agreements still need to be amended or updated?

A388


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8577 posts, RR: 10
Reply 131, posted (2 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2923 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 130):
Wow, a new destination starting service before all the other ones in this thread. Why is EZE started and CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO, YUL have not?

Because they've been working on starting EZE for 2 years now.


User currently offlineTurkish350XWB From Switzerland, joined Jan 2009, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (2 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2927 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 130):
Why is EZE started and CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO, YUL have not?

Because it is a tag-on to the GRU flight and no extra frame is needed for this, just adjustment of the flight schedule. GRU looses its connectivity to India/Pakistan but gains connectivity to China and Far East which is a smart move in my eyes.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 133, posted (2 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2931 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 130):
Why is EZE started and CCS, MEX, HAV, BOS, SFO, YUL have not?

Because they have have been working to launch EZE for almost 2-years now.

As reference they made their required Istanbul Stock Exchange notification back in May 2011 about intent to service the market.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 134, posted (2 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2919 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 131):
Because they've been working on starting EZE for 2 years now.
Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 132):
Because it is a tag-on to the GRU flight and no extra frame is needed for this, just adjustment of the flight schedule. GRU looses its connectivity to India/Pakistan but gains connectivity to China and Far East which is a smart move in my eyes.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 133):
As reference they made their required Istanbul Stock Exchange notification back in May 2011 about intent to service the market.

I see, thanks. So this route was announced two years ago. In other words, long overdue but finally happening. Let's see how long it will take for the other routes to start. Hopefully soon.

A388


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 135, posted (2 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Yes took a while to sort things out with Argentina. Even though the first bilateral between the nations was signed in 2005, took over 1-year to receive the local clearances in EZE for the services.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 136, posted (2 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2914 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 135):
Yes took a while to sort things out with Argentina. Even though the first bilateral between the nations was signed in 2005, took over 1-year to receive the local clearances in EZE for the services.

Well, I don't think the whole problem lies on Argentina. I don't think it's a coincidence that the flight is being launched only one month in advance. Airlines received GRU slot allocations in the beginning of November for S13 service. Before that, there was no guarantee that TK would be able to continue serving EZE from GRU beyond W12.


User currently offlineACT7 From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 137, posted (2 years 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 20):
Can YUL really support QR and TK?

I see QR and TK surviving, but I don't see RJ doing very well if TK secures YUL. They've had 2 frequencies a week since they started so there must be something holding them back from expanding. Another competitor and they're toast in my opinion.


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