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What Is Delta Doing Right? Your opinion please?  
User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 623 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2228 times:

I know most of what we read on here is opinion, but I am curious as to the current state of Delta. Where do they make their money? I ask, because over the past several weeks on this site, I have read that (paraphrasing):
-DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC
-DL can’t compete with AA & UA in Latin America
-DL loses money in SLC & LAX
-DL has inferior hubs vs. AA & UA (I would argue that UA does have the best hubs in the US)
-DL’s Asian portfolio is inferior to UA’s
-DL's "split-hub" operation in NYC is a mistake
-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

How, then did DL earn $768 million in 3Q? (Net income was $1Billion). Is all this from ATL? Is it all from fees and services? The oil refinery? Codeshares? I really am curious. Living in Chicago, I fly AA & UA more now, but as a former employee of both DL & UA, I tend to want them to do well! (Don’t get me wrong, I do like AA too). It’s difficult sometimes to separate fact from “fanboyism” on this site. Interested in hearing other’s views.


From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
114 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

Much of what is said on this site is hearsay, plain and simple. DL is doing the best of the major carriers in this country, something that many on this site don't like. There's a large and vocal clan of people here who dislike DL and chime in whenever possible to dismiss any accomplishments DL makes. I decided I'd respond to the things you listed with what my knowledge of the issues are:

-DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC

If this is indeed the case then it's likely that AA, B6, and even UA are all losing substantial amounts of money as well. The market is so huge and so competitive that it's hard for airlines to make money in NYC, just look how much lower fares are in competitive markets from NYC compared to other large metropolitan areas. And somehow, in spite of these enormous losses, DL continues to expand in the market and invest billions building and improving their facilities. For the US carrier that made the most money last year and this year, thus far, that doesn't add up. If it doesn't add up it's not true.

-DL can’t compete with AA & UA in Latin America+

And AA can't compete to the Asia/Pacific region. Every carrier has its weaknesses and can't be all things to all people. DL has the smallest presence in Latin America, but serves nearly all of the major markets. DL doesn't need to have a hub in MIA to operate into South America, bigger is not always better.

-DL loses money in SLC & LAX

DL makes money in SLC, as told by their executive team at many investor relations meetings, so unless they're lying, which is criminal, that is simply false. Who knows about LAX, but like NYC, it's too important a market for DL, or any airline, to let go of, and thus losses could mount and DL would continue to provide ample service.

-DL has inferior hubs vs. AA & UA (I would argue that UA does have the best hubs in the US)

This is stated over and over by armchair CEOs, and it's false. DL's ATL hub is the envy of the US airline industry, and extremely profitable. DL's MSP hub is also one of the highest margin hubs in the country, while DTW has also may headway in recent years. Stats were posted here not too long ago that showed DL's MSP and DTW hubs (individually) provide almost identical revenues to AA's ORD hub and are on par with UA's ORD hub, but with higher yields. Is it better to control two medium sized markets or to share one large market? I'd choose the former.

-DL’s Asian portfolio is inferior to UA’s

And? DL still has a large presence in the market and has competed effectively. Again, bigger isn't better.

-DL's "split-hub" operation in NYC is a mistake

This is yet to be seen, and according to DL's executive team, NYC has beat their expectations so far.

-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

This will all be changing next year. And in terms of being inferior, in what way? They'll have a clean, modern, efficient operation to serve their customers. This is the United States, not Dubai.

Jeremy


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2253 times:

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC

We are? As long as we make it up elsewhere.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL can’t compete with AA & UA in Latin America

AA is nowhere to be found in Africa, only 4 places in Asia, and 9 in Europe. UA is in one place in Africa, 10 in Europe. Can't AA and UA compete there? Please make any necessary corrections

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL loses money in SLC & LAX

They do? Sources please.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL has inferior hubs vs. AA & UA (I would argue that UA does have the best hubs in the US)

ATL is hardly an inferior hub, MIA will be ours eventually...and EWR should be recoded EWW.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL’s Asian portfolio is inferior to UA’s

Doesn't DL serve more Asian cities than UA? How's UA's South American, African, European portfolio compared to Delta's?

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL's "split-hub" operation in NYC is a mistake

I certainly don't think so. The others WISH thay had as big an operation at LGA or JFK.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

Nolo contendere. But they're better than UA's at JFK. And when DL gobbles up AA assets at MIA and JFK, what will you say then?

Bottom line (and that's where it really counts), DL is doing just fine.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3579 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2253 times:

I think the answer here is fortress hubs.......and Delta has very strong following and loyalty in smaller/medium markets near its hubs. Some markets like IDA, BOI, SUN, JAX, SAV, FAR etc etc and many more all cities where Delta does very well and just feeds people to its hubs all small but when you add all those up its great money. These cities are all much higher fare than ORD, DEN, LAX etc so they can be very profitable even if they are so much smaller they are making more per passenger.

SLC is the best example its smaller but is consistently profitable and i am sure they are much happier there with a consistently profitable hub rather than fighting it out in Denver for example or they are happier in DTW and in MSP than ORD. Delta is clearly doing things right in this tough industry.

NYC probably is loosing alot of money right now but thats all temporary it takes time to win people over and pay for all the expenses of a new hub and advertising. Give NYC time i think both DL and US got what was best in the end and it was a fantastic deal for both. It is just going to take them some time to develop and see what works/fails thats all.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

This one is totally 100% accurate. It is a dump. To put a positive spin they are going to totally replace it so its only for a limited amount of time we have to deal with that dump.



Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
DL loses money in SLC & LAX

LAX is not a hub so it cant really loose/make that much and they fill the planes with people coming from the Delta hubs/historically strong delta markets. They loose money when they try to fill planes with LAX origin passengers but they have abandoned all those markets for the most part. I cant see it loosing that much its just not killing it either they wont rehub it, they clearly are more interested in a little city in the pac-northwest along the coast for international possibilities.


[Edited 2012-11-11 09:42:47]

User currently offlineandygarrett From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2256 times:

They are now doing a lot right. For what started out as Huff Daland Dusters, Incorporated is now a dominate global airline. C. E. Woolman should be proud.

On my flight back to ATL from BRU they served a fillet steak that would have been very difficult to grill better in the backyard.

If the economy doesn't fall off the cliff again, which many economists are predicting, delta should be on very solid ground in a couple of years as often mentioned investments really begin to pay off.

Anderson and Bastien have taken some huge risks and made some big bets in the past 5 years and I see them really paying off now and the future.


User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

My opinion? Delta is trying to run an actual airline with a product you want to buy. Are they perfect? Of course not, no entity is. But they seem to display leadership and some innovative thinking. That alone will hit more often than miss. While others seem more focused on spreadsheets and data, DAL is trying to work on the actual product.

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10533 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):

Most of this should probably be considered flame bait, which proves that you can discount at least half of what you see & hear, here on A.net if these are indeed the facts you've gleened from reading on this forum.


I think I could probably name the members that may have brought up each of these individual points, but I think you know who they are. You can almost guarantee that their names will be on any post, disparaging DL and whatever they do.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 603 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):


  

I agree with all of your points, with the exception of one.

DL's facilities in JFK are not up to par. Granted, they will be in the next couple of years, but the facility is very dated, the layout is somewhat non-conducive to running an operation like they run, and the amount of space in the terminal is in no way proportional to the amount of people traveling through it. This is really the only thing I can fault DL on, and I think it's minor in the grand scheme of things.

Quoting DualQual (Reply 5):
My opinion? Delta is trying to run an actual airline with a product you want to buy. Are they perfect? Of course not, no entity is. But they seem to display leadership and some innovative thinking. That alone will hit more often than miss. While others seem more focused on spreadsheets and data, DAL is trying to work on the actual product.

Agreed. DL is doing a lot of things very well. They don't need to do everything. It's better to be good at what you do than try to do everything and let quality suffer.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23155 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
-DL can’t compete with AA & UA in Latin America+

And AA can't compete to the Asia/Pacific region.

I'd argue that AA is better positioned in Asia than either UA or DL because it doesn't have the dead weight of an unprofitable NRT hub. BKK and SIN aren't making or breaking things for UA or DL.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
Is it better to control two medium sized markets or to share one large market? I'd choose the former.

Me too (and your argument applies equally if not more strongly to SLC versus DEN), but that ignores the fact that I'd rather control MIA than deal with FL/WN at ATL, and I'd rather control EWR or PHL than deal with a split hub at JFK/LGA. Wouldn't you?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5514 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

Delta is managing their costs, debt, and capital expenses brilliantly. Right now, it's costing them in terms of share price, but it will pay off in a few years. The refinery purchase may or may not work, but that wasn't a bet-the-company transaction.

Obviously, they hope NYC will pay off, too. I think we'll have to wait and see about that part.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

Q: What is Delta doing right?

A: Network Planning & Revenue Management. Everything else flows from there.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlinesxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
I'd argue that AA is better positioned in Asia than either UA or DL because it doesn't have the dead weight of an unprofitable NRT hub. BKK and SIN aren't making or breaking things for UA or DL.

Your point only makes sense if there was space for new participants. In reality, AA doesn't have the infrastructure or assets to compete against incumbent carriers and there are very few - if any - ex-US markets to Asia in need of additional competition.

A NRT hub in and of itself is not a great asset. However, the slots, history, and presence in every major Asian market gives DL and UA a distinct advantage. UA has already de-emphisized ex-NRT connections and DL will follow down the same path. DL has already deployed more NRT slots to beach markets with significant success.


User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1483 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

What is Delta doing right?

This is easy...

Delta is making a boatload of money when the world economy is in a recession. In 2-3 years when Europe climbs out of their hole Delta will be a cash cow.

How's that for an answer?


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

I think overall, DL's doing great. But what I think is interesting is when we talk about hubs, there's no mention of CVG and MEM. Two very week hubs, which brings down their portfolio in comparison to it's competitors. AA doesn't have hubs in second tier markets and UA has by far the best hub markets (with maybe the exception of CLE).

From a service perspective, I'd like to see DL work on their domestic premium product. First Class and SkyClub offerings are pretty bad.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 2):
Nolo contendere. But they're better than UA's at JFK. And when DL gobbles up AA assets at MIA and JFK, what will you say then?

Sorry, but who can take you seriously when you say things like this? Things are looking in the right direction for AA. Their new cost structure along with its cornerstone hubs and a boat-load of new airplanes are a huge threat to Delta (not to mention the potential hook up with US to make them #1 in size.)

Now, AA just needs to take a page from DL's book, and sharpen their marketing, brand and become more aggressive internationally.


User currently offlineca2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2239 times:

What is Delta doing right? Employee relations are among the best in the industry, definitely better than AA. Heck even during bankruptcy, DL employees were 110% behind management. Also, when it comes to aircraft modifications (especially painting), they get it done quick. Look how long it took US to re-configure 9 A330's with sleeper seats (almost 2 years). I'd personally love to work for Delta, and would jump ship in a minute.

User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 13):
Sorry, but who can take you seriously when you say things like this?

Apology accepted, but I couldn't care less if you take me seriously. Just wishful thinking on my part. Feel free to bypass any of my posts, you'll have less to apologize for.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2240 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):

I'd argue that AA is better positioned in Asia than either UA or DL because it doesn't have the dead weight of an unprofitable NRT hub. BKK and SIN aren't making or breaking things for UA or DL.

I disagree completely. It's much easier to re-shift and/or rightsize a market operation than it is to grow organically. If BKK and SIN don't make money for DL and UA, then they can stop serving these markets. It's easier and cheaper to end service then it is to start service. It would take a decade or more for AA to grow its own Pacific operation to equal what UA and DL currently have, which is something DL also was incapable of doing prior to the merger with NW. The role of ATI and JVs has diminished this tremendously, but in the absence of this AA would really struggle in the market. Still, NRT serves as the centerpiece of all three major's Asia/Pacific operations, something that, while changing, will continue throughout the foreseeable future.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):

Me too (and your argument applies equally if not more strongly to SLC versus DEN), but that ignores the fact that I'd rather control MIA than deal with FL/WN at ATL, and I'd rather control EWR or PHL than deal with a split hub at JFK/LGA. Wouldn't you?

MIA and ATL really don't compare. DL's ATL hub is more than three times the size of AA's MIA and serves as DL's main hub as well as the world's largest. MIA serves as the gateway to Latin America but can never function as a giant continental connection hub the way that ATL does nor can it serve as a good connecting point to Europe and Asia. DFW vs. ATL would be a more apt comparison, and I'd take ATL over any functioning US hub, the economies of scale are simply too large to ignore. But to your other points, yes, I'd take one large hub at PHL or EWR over the split operation at JFK/LGA, although all of the aforementioned markets are heavily competitive. However, the jury is still out on this one; let's see where DL stands with a hub at JFK and LGA (something that's never been done fully to the extent that DL has) in a few years once the dual hub strategy has matured.

Jeremy


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7422 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC
Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL's "split-hub" operation in NYC is a mistake

The Wall Street view is that it is losing that much and I don't doubt it. I'm not sure you can say that the split hub is a mistake as there is no other option for having a viable domestic and int'l operation. I *DO* think DL would be smart to start lobbying the Port of NY/NJ to eliminate the perimeter rule and start allowing transcons at LGA. DL has the most to gain from that.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
Where do they make their money?

ATL/DTW/MSP, probably in that order. I think all three are fabulously profitable. ATL is probably lower margin that the other two, but more in absolute profit due to size. I suspect with WN taking apart ATL, DL will now mint even more money in ATL and all three hubs will have margins of ~15%.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL loses money in SLC & LAX

SLC is around breakeven, again from Wall Street coverage. LAX is purportedly losing a good chunk of what NYC loses. I don't think that is surprising. They are flying tons of RJs up against Southwest and LCCs. They have fiercely competitive long-hauls and I think they are probably losing a ton on transcon which is why they are upgrading the product.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL has inferior hubs vs. AA & UA (I would argue that UA does have the best hubs in the US)

DL's successful hubs are not in the "sexy" cities, but the "sexy" cities are VERY competitive and that's why they are losing money in those cities. Any hub that is massively profitable isn't inferior.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

Yes, they are horrible. I think it's an embarrassment for America to welcome the poor huddled masses yearning to be free into the country through that disaster. Hopefully the new terminal fixes it.

I think the best thing Delta has done in the last couple of years is to vastly reduce the tit-for-tat retaliatory flying they did every time somebody entered one of their markets. It seems like once WN came into MSP they just gave up on such things. Retaliatory flying loses lots of money. I think DL is now being much smarter about that.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9577 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2239 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
They loose money when they try to fill planes with LAX origin passengers but they have abandoned all those markets for the most part.
SFO/SAN/PHX/LAS/SMF/IND/RDU/CMH/LIH/KOA/OGG/SYD/HNL/HND/MCO/TPA/MIA are Delta hubs?

Jeesh i would nearly pay you to look at a timetable before you post about Delta and LAX.

and if they loose money in all those markets above....1) prove it. Please I beg you to prove me wrong. You have been speaking this crap for years....so prove it. So me that data. 2) why has nearly all of LAX's growth....up nearly 40% over the last few years....been in non-hub markets?

as normal i think you have no idea what your talking about.




Quoting enilria (Reply 17):

The Wall Street view is that it is losing that much and I don't doubt it. I'm not sure you can say that the split hub is a mistake as there is no other option for having a viable domestic and int'l operation. I *DO* think DL would be smart to start lobbying the Port of NY/NJ to eliminate the perimeter rule and start allowing transcons at LGA. DL has the most to gain from that.


this "wall street view" what is that? what does that mean? do they have P&Ls on wall street.

me thinks its people talking out of their a**es.




Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
ATL/DTW/MSP, probably in that order.


ATL/MSP/SLC/DTW/NYC......




Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
SLC is around breakeven, again from Wall Street coverage


*sigh* go ahead and explain this one too.


I can see this thread as nothing but bad. I personally think 99% off it will be people talking out of their butts with no real proof of anything they say.

[Edited 2012-11-14 20:36:27 by SA7700]


yep.
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):

ATL/DTW/MSP, probably in that order. I think all three are fabulously profitable. ATL is probably lower margin that the other two, but more in absolute profit due to size. I suspect with WN taking apart ATL, DL will now mint even more money in ATL and all three hubs will have margins of ~15%.

1. ATL 2. MSP 3. Everything else after that is questionable. DL has stated repeatedly that MSP is its highest margin hub, while ATL pulls the highest numbers. DTW was actually unprofitable following the merger; DL has gained a lot of traction in DTW, with DL recently reporting that DTW is now making money.

Jeremy


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are)

Not "kinda". They definitely are.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 2):
But they're better than UA's at JFK.

First of all, no they're not - T7 is better than T2/T3. And second of all, why are you comparing the JFK facilities when you should be comparing DL and JFK and UA at EWR (and where UA still comes out ahead, despite having the very inconvenient terminal setup).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 727 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

I think most of this story is a little less about Delta and a little more about the rationalisation of the American airline market.

Two competitors disappeared: CO and NW. Is it certain that UA and CO combined are worse for Delta than those competitors remaining unmarried? I don't think so! In the legacy world, the tendency is to stake out territory but let the legacy competitors have THEIR fiefdoms almost without challenge. Delta works best as hub-and-spoke entrants decline in number.


United made 500 million in the quarter, and this is with their integrtion problems. Their upside is higher.


Pu


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11754 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2238 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 16):
It's easier and cheaper to end service then it is to start service. It would take a decade or more for AA to grow its own Pacific operation to equal what UA and DL currently have

It's true - it definitely takes longer, and costs more, to grow organically. But it's not impossible. And if the major economies of Asia grow in the coming decades as convention wisdom projects they will (and by the way, I don't think they will), then AA should be able to get in there and grow some more organically.

So it's true that now, today, and even in the future after AA grows further organically, they will not reach the critical mass that DL and especially UA already have. No argument. Although I would argue that AA doesn't really need to.

As it is now, today, AA's nonstop U.S.-Asia network ex-Japan is already approaching broad competitiveness with Delta. And Japan is largely taken care of by the JAL JBA. Excluding the flights from NRT, AA has now or soon will have as many or more flights nonstop from U.S. gateways to ICN and PVG each week as DL, and PEK is 7 vs DL's 14, so no drastic differentiation like both of them vs UA. Beyond that, every single other point DL serves in Asia is served via NRT, anyway, and none of those (HKG, TPE, MNL, BKK, SIN) except HKG would ever be places AA would be able to fly anyway - too low-yielding, too much competition from foreign flags. (And of course all of this is before the "right-sizing" occurs with DL's NRT operation, which I suspect is coming at some point.) With JAL they don't need to - they benefit from the same feed, and the same ability to coordinate schedules and optimize pricing, as DL can do over its own network, only AA gets to do it at a fraction of the capital cost and with far more flexibility.

There are drawbacks, certainly, to not having your own plane flying into these big Asian markets. The local DL (and UA) brand presence in those markets helps DL (and UA) relative to AA, and AA is unlikely to ever catch up to that in some markets. But again, they don't need to. It's similar to the situation in South America - which is substantially more dominated by AA than any other world region is by either DL or UA or any other U.S. carrier. AA is so far out ahead of everybody else that it's unlikely DL or UA will ever catch up. But do they need to? Are DL and UA still doing fairly well and holding their own in Latin America even despite the fact that AA is essentially as big as DL and UA combined? There is nothing to say AA can't do the same in Asia - AA will never be nearly as big as DL or UA, but I think they'll be "big enough" to be competitive.

[Edited 2012-11-11 16:26:28]

User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9577 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 23):
too low-yielding, too much competition from foreign flags. (And of course all of this is before the "right-sizing" occurs with DL's NRT operation, which I suspect is coming at some point.)

but even with any right sizing, the cities you list will be staying around in the Delta network. I do think TPE will end up with a Delta flight from the US....mainly due to the SkyTeam hub at TPE.

MNL/BKK/SIN will keep its NRT flights....along with SPN/GUM. Any slots Delta gets from dumping...say PEK....will likely end up going to other beach markets....which are making Delta tons of money right now.



yep.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10533 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2562 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
And second of all, why are you comparing the JFK facilities when you should be comparing DL and JFK and UA at EWR (and where UA still comes out ahead, despite having the very inconvenient terminal setup).

Because the original statement was about DL's facilities at JFK, not EWR.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 20):
1. ATL 2. MSP 3. Everything else after that is questionable.

Unless I'm mistaken, SLC was 2nd in profitability until the NW merger.

Quoting pu (Reply 22):
Their upside is higher.

Not if they don't get their integration problems ironed out.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
25 Post contains images PHX787 : DL is doing one thing right, if anything: focusing older aircraft which can be acquired and maintained for cheap and outfitting them with the most mod
26 Deltal1011man : Your not. SLC makes money. MSP just makes more(which is the general idea when you have 200-300 more flights a day)
27 Max Q : They just have good management, probably the best in the American airline industry. They actually believe in running a successful airline by treating
28 warren747sp : Make it impossible to book standard awards on almost any international flights especially business class to Asia!
29 Cubsrule : DL has done many things right at DTW since the merger, but bear in mind also that the merger happened almost right at the bottom of the recession, an
30 spiritair97 : I was gonna say that, but I didn't wanna offend anybody. I fly out of T7 quite often and find it a very enjoyable experience, whereas flying DL out o
31 neveragain : A bit simplistic. DL's domestic yields underperform AA and UA's in many markets from NYC. While they don't have access to DL's own figures, you can b
32 RamblinMan : Agreed. The new website they just rolled out speaks volumes for what they are trying to deliver. It looks clean and it's very functional. I'd also sa
33 pu : Neither relying on BA in London to serve customers going to Europe nor relying on JAL in Tokyo to serve customers going to Asia will EVER beat Delta
34 aa777lvr : Allright, here goes for what many may perceive as an unpopular opinion on what DL is doing right........ IMO, one of the best things DL has going for
35 Deltal1011man : I agree...but I think if can be made to work....NYC is about the only city that it can be done in.... and i have yet to see anyone on wall street pos
36 jporterfi : DL has a huge number of routes that rely on O&D traffic at LAX. They clearly don't just make money at LAX by shuttling people to their hubs. You
37 mayor : Unions are gone, most of the people are still there.
38 Deltal1011man : huh? who did Delta "get rid of"?
39 Max Q : Er, what, he 'shed the unions' ?!!! Please explain this. I won't even start on how unions have 'hindered' the CO/UA merger.... yet.
40 usdcaguy : I would like to see a breakout of this. There are many different categories here: - Point-to-Point JFK flying (JFK-AUS/CMH) - Competitive Point-to-Po
41 aa777lvr : I'm referring to early-out programs....voluntary separations from the company (NW). AA777LVR
42 Post contains links neveragain : They probably do, but even if they don't, they probably have it organized a hell of a lot better than anywhere on here not working in DL network plan
43 delta2ual : Thanks for pointing that out. Do any airlines really make money flying people from A to B or is it from ancillary fees and upsells like Economy Comfo
44 airliner371 : As much as you think this may happen, you should hold off on saying this type of thing because you lost a lot of credit for it. If you are in an AA B
45 enilria : You do realize that Delta releases all its revenue data down to the O&D level? They also release fairly detailed cost data. The only piece of dat
46 Cubsrule : Are facilities costs or debt service (related to the McNamara terminal) significantly higher at DTW?
47 csavel : Agree, am a big Delta fan and it sucks. But, frankly, I think the quality of a terminal factors in much, much, less in people's decisions that we at
48 rwy04lga : Who said I was trying to be serious? Again, wishful thinking. Feel free to bypass my posts.
49 neveragain : That certainly jibes with what I have heard, although everyone should take that with a grain of salt. I think everyone will note in public statements
50 Cubsrule : That's good to hear. At least for the past decade or so, DTW has seemed to me to be very well-managed. The North Terminal is a good example of a func
51 airliner371 : Your post was completly right except for this. I would just mark that as wishful thinking if the rest of your post is going to be serious so people d
52 DTWPurserBoy : As a member of the Delta family and somewhat biased, I would offer the following reasons why DL made a billion dollars in the last quarter: 1. Serious
53 enilria : It appears from airport data that the CPE difference is only about $1.50. That's a fraction of a margin point. I think you are correct. They always s
54 neveragain : You're absolutely right, but I would argue by its very nature, it's an estimate.
55 WA707atMSP : Even though I am NOT one of the DL FanBoys on ANet, I feel the anti-DL comments of some people here are factually wrong; the only other place where I
56 slcdeltarumd11 : I dont think analyzing JFK/LGA routes seperately matters solely on numbers. Of course Delta does not want to loose a ton on a route but i think each
57 XJetflyer : I have flown Delta off and on for certain trips. They do a pretty good job and no real complaints. Some of their aircraft feel very old and dated. Bes
58 mayor : And why would that be? SLC has always been one of the better performing hubs, and for this reason, it was chosen over DFW to remain as a hub.
59 DeltaMD90 : I don't think anyone is arguing that split hubs are better than single hubs, but really, it is impossible to merge DL's NYC operations into one airpor
60 neveragain : My saying that I wouldn't be surprised if it SLC was "one of the poorer-performing hubs" and your saying that it has "always been one of the better-p
61 seatback : First of all, I've become a big DL fan (Diamond Level). However, their food in first class on domestic flights is pretty bad (just finished a bowl of
62 enilria : Then I would argue that DL's own internal profitability system is by the same definition, also an estimate. I often find it funny when on quarterly c
63 mayor : Well, I was working there in 2000 and I don't remember alot of "reductions" in service (except for a period after 9/11) from then until when I retire
64 Post contains images neveragain : Hmm . . . interesting conclusion. I certainly understand the logic. But however DL views profitability and makes asset allocation decisions is probab
65 enilria : That system led them to getting a cr@pton of 50 seat regional jets that were a bad idea at that number of airplanes even with fuel lower. I suspect t
66 rwy04lga : Watch out, that kid will start berating you too!
67 slcdeltarumd11 : What reductions has SLC seen? The number of seats has remained very high post merger in fact i think its higher. All hubs have had some routes dissap
68 Post contains links neveragain : Read post 25 in this thread, which you participated in, but failed to acknowledge many of the facts presented. Changes In Capacity At DL-NW Hubs Sinc
69 Cubsrule : I think it's sometimes misplaced, though. Many platinums have that status because they live in markets like Detroit or Atlanta and have no choice but
70 COalways : The most Profitable Airline Hub in America? #1-UA (EWR) #2-US (DCA) #3-UA (IAH) So why would UA be envy of ATL when they have the Top 2 profitable hub
71 neveragain : Maybe because DL is making more money than UA by almost every measure?
72 mayor : Why can't any of these three statements, still be true even IF there are fewer seats?
73 neveragain : Fair enough, you have a point indeed. I don't think the general perception of an airline "loving" an airport, though, doesn't normally involve an air
74 jetlanta : So the point of this is that Delta is but a few months into a giant expansion of its NYC operation. There exists no publicly available data that woul
75 mayor : Unless I'm mistaken, hasn't DL reduced capacity, domestically, systemwide over the last few years, so to single out SLC as being "less" profitable be
76 DTWPurserBoy : If anything, DL has increased capacity. They retired the 100 seat DC-9-30 and upgraded to the MD-90. Later this year the B717 and 737-900MAX will come
77 neveragain : Total domestic departing seats on DL for 2012 were 8.4% less than on DL and NW together in 2008, so SLC fared worse than average. In fact, SLC fared
78 Post contains images PHX787 : DL and CVG/Cincinnati have a love/hate relationship with each other. I won't extrapolate because I've pretty much said this a million times before
79 Flaps : I skipped over the last 20 or so replies so I apologize if this has been said but as a very loyal DL customer I'll throw in the following: - Reliable
80 IrishAyes : Delta is one of the best-managed network carriers in the world. Delta is sincerely thankful for your business and treats you as a person of value. Del
81 Post contains images airliner371 : We are not in 2013 yet...
82 jetlanta : Yields aren't the same as profits? Part of the reason that AA and UA enjoy higher yields in these markets is because a significant part of their capa
83 Cubsrule : VX, with its denser configuration than DL, also enjoys higher yields.
84 neveragain : VX has higher yields than DL on JFK-SFO and LAX the last time I checked, with much less premium capacity, not to mention, zero lie-flat seats. And I'm
85 SESGDL : These statistics are estimates and are margins based. To compare US's largely niche "hub" at DCA to DL's megahub at ATL is misleading. No, as per the
86 mayor : And yet there were those on this thread that, when talking about AA, were saying that watch out for AA when they get their act together (whenever tha
87 RyanairGuru : CLT is an interesting one. In the September edition of the US Airway Magazine, Doug Parker stated that US has more flights from CLT than BA at LHR or
88 jetlanta : True. But its kind if irrelevant, no? What I said above. Here is the thing. My only point here is there was a general tone in some of these comments
89 neveragain : Certainly not me. DL is indisputably the best positioned of all 3, for now at least. Anything different is contingent upon speculation, and, as you a
90 mayor : I think what I was alluding to was an apples to oranges comparison.....comparing DL's performance, now to what AA and UA will do in the future, just
91 neveragain : Wouldn't be the first time. But I think there's a pretty good general idea of what "love" on this board means, annoying as such word usage can be. Th
92 holzmann : As a customer who must regularly choose between the major players for business travel, I simply prefer the Delta Experience the most. From the fun saf
93 enilria : Like most other people. :p Ahh yes, I forgot UA management is at war with the residents of the 3rd most profitable hub in America. Yes, but new capac
94 dalfannyc : The question is only "What is Delta Doing Right?", it is "What are its competitors doing wrong?" As someone who is a strong advocate for DL (you can s
95 Post contains images mayor : They make fun of almost ANYTHING outside of New York. [Edited 2012-11-13 09:54:36]
96 neveragain : I'll pretend my feelings aren't hurt. I certainly agree. I don't know how anyone in the industry could argue otherwise in good faith. "Winning in New
97 Post contains images slcdeltarumd11 : It probably does make less than MSP but its profitable and serves a totally different geographical area and market so why does it really matter. I do
98 mayor : How many mainline/RJ gates does DL need at SLC? On the day of the DL/WA merger, IIRC, we had 162 MAINLINE flights a day, with only 26 gates. I'm not
99 cslusarc : My main beef with DL, is that it announced in 2008 that it was putting the Thompson Vantage seat on its 767s. The first 764 went in for conversion in
100 cokepopper : But the topic is what is delta doing right......... Employee relations and profit sharing are other noteworthy additions.
101 MSPNWA : The topic title should be, "What are airlines doing right?" Even carriers in the middle of integrations and bankruptcy are doing pretty well. Almost a
102 cokepopper : Then start your own topic. It pains some that Delta is doing some things better than their Competitors.
103 neveragain : What a sensitive, defensive bunch. But I guess every airline has them. Better that than completely bitter and disenchanted, I suppose.
104 Post contains images PRAirbus : DELTA seems to be doing everything right! They're making $, they're innovative, dynamic, thirsty for growth and fly everywhere...I don't see anything
105 1337Delta764 : I disagree. The 744s fly some of the longest routes in the DL system, second only to the 77L. For the routes served by the 744, having flat beds is p
106 mogandoCI : -DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC Hard to imagine that's the case, unless they're spending too much on their ad campaign. -DL can’t compete
107 B757forever : 1. Making money. (most in DL history) 2. Paying down debt aggressively. 3. Controlling costs. 4. Managing CAPEX well. 5. Building consistent product /
108 NWAESC : Interestingly (or not), NW had early out language in it's ramp CBA. Ahead of the vote, there were a few hundred unused spots "left over" from previou
109 denverdanny : I only few Delta once, back in 2004. I booked a flight from Denver to Rome via Cincinnati. It was a real steal of a price. Anyway, on the way back, we
110 huxrules : I'd say delta has focused on building a better product since their merger. And they have. It might not be lightyears ahead of everyone but they have m
111 airtechy : I have been a loyal Delta customer since I first flew them in 1966 on a DC-7.....TYS to ATL. During the years, there have been low spots and high spot
112 727LOVER : There is a nice article about DL on the front page of WSJ with nifty pics!!!
113 n471wn : Indeed a great article and one that rebuffs all this propaganda about how you can only make money with new aircraft. Delta and Allegiant are showing
114 enilria : They are in terms of market share, but profits could be improving or getting worse. Unknown. I think that it's pretty clear that WN is taking apart t
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